Jon Snow: The Ultimate Red Herring?

[JLE]

I think it's quite possible that Jon will be, not the future king of anything, but the future *hero* who saves the world, even if he dies in the saving.

For this it's not necessary for him to be legitimate - or for Rhaegar and Lyanna to have had a bigamous marriage: only for Rhaegar to have believed that it was somehow important and necessary for him to sire a third child, believing that it would be his three children that saved the world from disaster - and, once again, getting it wrong, it being his *third* child (Jon) that saves the world, the first two having been murdered in infancy... and if Jon will ride a dragon, the other two dragonriders are, importantly, not Rhaegar's children - whether they are Targaryens, or of other Valyrian stock, or indeed not at all (I believe Tyrion is NOT Aerys's child, but will ride a dragon).

[Mr Smith]

As for the OP:

Dany is the big glaring Red Herring of the series.

As I noted in the OP, I agree. I've always thought that Dany will end up being more of an antagonist than any kind of saviour. But this is why I am so much more interested in Jon's fate, because he fits the bill for the classic high fantasy hero. There are, for example, a myriad of parallels between him and Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings. But if George really want's to challenge the genre, then that's not at all what Jon will become.

To the poster who suggested that Martin would change his story because people have found out RLJ, Martin has already clearly stated that he would not change anything based on fans putting clues together.

Indeed he has. And though its an admirable stance, what I'm really saying is I'm not entirely sure I believe him.

I think there are a couple of significant problems with this. First, as others have indicated, GRRM has spent too much time developing the character to just kill him off in such a manner. It may be that he is a 'red herring' as the supposed hero of the story and turns out to be something quite different, but I have little doubt that he plays some key role in the ending, even if its an unexpected role.

But the bigger problem is that killing off Jon Snow takes away the reader's viewpoint for the storyline at the Wall, and while there are a few options for replacing him in that sense, none of them are particularly good.

Fair point. Though in my opinion, the wall arc is the next thing to finished. The defence is ragged and in no condition to fight the White Walkers when they do arrive, and if someone does end up blowing the Horn of Winter, its all over red rover.

I take your point that George has spent a lot of time developing Jon. It may be that I've gone too far, and Jon does actually return, but just isn't the hero we expected him to be. He may, as some people have suggested, end up being a foil for Dany, where both represent different ends of the spectrum but neither are destined to rule, or be a saviour of any kind.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

:bowdown:

To the poster who suggested that Martin would change his story because people have found out RLJ, Martin has already clearly stated that he would not change anything based on fans putting clues together.

I know this, man. After reading through the OP, I wanted to make sure that is what the OP meant in the end. If so, I don't understand where that conclusion comes from.

[Headless Wolf]

I love this idea. I really like Jon, but I dislike R+L=J and I don't want his parentage to make him the savior. I would rather he bury it when he finds out and die fighting the Others or the Lannisters

[Blazfemur]

Meh, I think The Iron Throne itself, is the ultimate red herring. Or the Wall

[RoamingRonin]

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

Jon, ADWD.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

Dany, ASOS.

Blue and sweetness are bad news in ASOIAF. Jon is symbolized by the blue winter rose, filling the air with sweetness. Seems to me Jon won't be the archetypal hero in the end.

"Snow," a raven muttered. "Snow," another echoed. All of them picked it up then. "Snow, snow, snow, snow, snow." Sam had taught them that word. There was no help here, he saw. Maester Aemon was as trapped as he was. He will die at sea, he thought, despairing. He is too old to survive such a voyage. Gilly's little son may die as well, he's not as large and strong as Dalla's boy. Does Jon mean to kill us all?

Yes, Sam. Yes he does.

Dareon and Sam left with him. They descended to the yard in silence. Outside, Jon looked up at the Wall shining in the sun, the melting ice creeping down its side in a hundred thin fingers. Jon's rage was such that he would have smashed it all in an instant, and the world be damned.

:dunno:

[Blazfemur]

Jon, ADWD.

Dany, ASOS.

Blue and sweetness are bad news in ASOIAF. Jon is symbolized by the blue winter rose, filling the air with sweetness. Seems to me Jon won't be the archetypal hero in the end.

Yes, Sam. Yes he does.

:dunno:

The Last Hero was to Others, as Jon was with Wildlings. Exact same story. The Last Hero became The Night's King, and then was backstabbed and villainized. you think if Jon remains dead, theyll renoun him as a hero? No... he was a traitor, son of a traitor, laid with a wildling girl (like TNK laid with an Other, supposedly)

Theyre right on parallel tracks, the two Lord Commanders Stark.

(The preceding is all speculation until proven)

[Blazfemur]

And that wall, MUST be destroyed

[kimim]

No.

I expect Martin to come up with something better than "Jon-the chosen one and Dany-the chosen two team up and defeat the evil monsters", but wasting so many chapters on Jon only to make it mean nothing would be no genius red herring, it would be simply bad writing.

This, so much. Either Jon or Dany could turn out to be the bad guy, or the good guy or neither. They could be red herrings as heroes or villains. Their stories need to be good, though. Having Jon stay dead would be not only anticlimactic, but a waste of space. Having Dany die of pneumonia on her way to Westeros would be a waste of space. A death like Ned's, though, would be just fine. It took me by surprise, but it was perfect, and Ned lives on as part of the story in my mind.

[RoamingRonin]

And that wall, MUST be destroyed

From Memory, Sorrow, Thorn:

With dreadful deliberateness, the leader reached up to pull open his hooded cloak. A scarlet light seemed to spill forth. As he tore it away, it was as though he turned inside-out; suddenly he was all formlessness and smoldering red glare. The others did the same. Five beings of shifting, flickering lines grew and stood revealed – larger than before, each tall as two men, faceless, billowing like burning vermilion silk-

A black mouth opened in the leader’s eyeless face as he lifted his arms to the gate and placed his burning hands against it.

“Death!” he bellowed, and his voice seemed to shake the very fundament of the walls. The iron hinges began to glow a dull orange.

“Hei ma’akajao-zha!” The massive spars blackened and smoked. Josua, tugging frantically at the dumbstruck Deornoth’s arm, leaped down to the top of the wall.

“T’si anh pra INELUKI!”

As the prince’s soldiers dove shrieking down the staircases there was a burst of light, a deafening crack louder than drums or thunder, and the mighty gate burst into steaming, sparkling finders. The shards hissed down in a deadly rain as the wall collapsed on either side, crushing men beneath it even as they tried to flee.

Armored Norns leaped into the smoking gap in the walls. Some lifted long tubes of wood or bone, touching them at the end with naming brands. Horrible gouts of fire leaped out of the pipes, turning fleeing soldiers into jigging, wailing torches. Great dark shapes pushed through the rubble: the Hunën, swinging long iron-studded clubs in their shaggy hands, howling like maddened bears as they crushed all in their path. Shattered bodies flew before them like ninepins.

Some of the soldiers, courageously resisting the choking fear, turned to fight. A giant went down with two spears in its guts, but a moment later the spearmen were dead, feathered with white-fletched Nom arrows. The pallid Norns were pushing through the fuming breach in the wall like maggots, shouting as they came.

The Wall WILL fall. The Others are masters of ice. I don't believe they have been dismayed by the Wall like we suspect. It only takes a black brother of the night's watch to get through it. With Benjen or Jon, and perhaps some other assistance, the Wall WILL fall.

[Blazfemur]

From Memory, Sorrow, Thorn:

With dreadful deliberateness, the leader reached up to pull open his hooded cloak. A scarlet light seemed to spill forth. As he tore it away, it was as though he turned inside-out; suddenly he was all formlessness and smoldering red glare. The others did the same. Five beings of shifting, flickering lines grew and stood revealed – larger than before, each tall as two men, faceless, billowing like burning vermilion silk-

A black mouth opened in the leader’s eyeless face as he lifted his arms to the gate and placed his burning hands against it.

“Death!” he bellowed, and his voice seemed to shake the very fundament of the walls. The iron hinges began to glow a dull orange.

“Hei ma’akajao-zha!” The massive spars blackened and smoked. Josua, tugging frantically at the dumbstruck Deornoth’s arm, leaped down to the top of the wall.

“T’si anh pra INELUKI!”

As the prince’s soldiers dove shrieking down the staircases there was a burst of light, a deafening crack louder than drums or thunder, and the mighty gate burst into steaming, sparkling finders. The shards hissed down in a deadly rain as the wall collapsed on either side, crushing men beneath it even as they tried to flee.

Armored Norns leaped into the smoking gap in the walls. Some lifted long tubes of wood or bone, touching them at the end with naming brands. Horrible gouts of fire leaped out of the pipes, turning fleeing soldiers into jigging, wailing torches. Great dark shapes pushed through the rubble: the Hunën, swinging long iron-studded clubs in their shaggy hands, howling like maddened bears as they crushed all in their path. Shattered bodies flew before them like ninepins.

Some of the soldiers, courageously resisting the choking fear, turned to fight. A giant went down with two spears in its guts, but a moment later the spearmen were dead, feathered with white-fletched Nom arrows. The pallid Norns were pushing through the fuming breach in the wall like maggots, shouting as they came.

The Wall WILL fall. The Others are masters of ice. I don't believe they have been dismayed by the Wall like we suspect. It only takes a black brother of the night's watch to get through it. With Benjen or Jon, and perhaps some other assistance, the Wall WILL fall.

it doesnt even NEED to fall, as TNK has said, and maintained his Oath. Others are LIVING, unliek wights, he is STILL under and serving Oath. He CAN get through the gate.

I crackpotted, the only believable way for an object of THAT size, to have a breach, other than the gate, is if that red comet came crashing through it. Unlikely, but still an idea. It's never confirmed which way it's heading, is it? While unlikely, that comet crushing through it and causing a breach, would be SO monumental. But that wont happen

[Mr Smith]

Jon, ADWD.

Dany, ASOS.

Blue and sweetness are bad news in ASOIAF. Jon is symbolized by the blue winter rose, filling the air with sweetness. Seems to me Jon won't be the archetypal hero in the end.

Yes, Sam. Yes he does.

:dunno:

Very interesting stuff. I've heard this theory thrown around here and there, but never seen it properly explained. And you're certainly right that sweetness means treachery and trouble in ASOIAF. If you're on the right track, this would be a very interesting way to handle Jon. My big problem with it (and admittedly its a more personal one) is that its a little too mystical and elemental for my taste.

[RoamingRonin]

The Last Hero was to Others, as Jon was with Wildlings. Exact same story. The Last Hero became The Night's King, and then was backstabbed and villainized. you think if Jon remains dead, theyll renoun him as a hero? No... he was a traitor, son of a traitor, laid with a wildling girl (like TNK laid with an Other, supposedly)

Theyre right on parallel tracks, the two Lord Commanders Stark.

(The preceding is all speculation until proven)

The last hero legend applies better to Bran than it does to Jon. I do agree the Night's King legend does fit with Jon. Some think it's Stannis but Stannis is was shown in Dany's vision as the bue-eyed king that cast no shadow. He is a different lie that Dany will have to slay. That doesn't mean she will kill him but Stannis screwed himself over by pretending to be Azor Ahai. Dany will fix that.

Very interesting stuff. I've heard this theory thrown around here and there, but never seen it properly explained. And you're certainly right that sweetness means treachery and trouble in ASOIAF. If you're on the right track, this would be a very interesting way to handle Jon. My big problem with it (and admittedly its a more personal one) is that its a little too mystical and elemental for my taste.

I don't think Jon will remain evil. I feel like GRRM has been keeping Jon "clean" (Jon is one of the only ASOIAF characters that doesn't commit any morally questionable acts) so that when he does go over to the dark side, it will be a lot easier to bring him back. But I do believe Jon will switch sides in the upcoming battle.

[JonisHenryTudor]

From Memory, Sorrow, Thorn:

That is a good one.

[The Missing Crannogman]

Well GRRM said that he isn't dead and that he will learn about his parentage.

I believe that Dany because of her chicks has more red herrings qualities than Jon.

GRRM never said that, don't put words in his mouth. Someone asked him about Jon Snow's death and he responded "Oh so you think he's dead". That IMPLIES that Jon isn't dead, or at least that he won't stay dead. He never though said that Jon is not dead.

:cheers: Dany from the beginning was portrayed as the ultimate hero cliches and tropes embodiment with the god given dragons and Jon is the herring?

Lol come on now. Jon has:

- a magical sword given to him

- one of the best educations available (whether he decided to pay attention or not is not the point)

- trained by a master at arms which gives him a distinct advantage over his fellow brothers and his opponents for most of the books the wildlings

- a giant wolf the size of a horse that he can live as should his body die, but in the meantime can warn him enemies and let him experience its superior senses

- a 700 foot tall magic Wall that Others and wights (seemingly his biggest upcoming enemy) cannot pass, and that Mance, who wanted past the Wall conveniently attacked at the only place that Jon could possibly defeat him at? And then had Stannis come in and defeat Mance for him

- a nerdy best friend who just happens to be able to tell Jon all the forgotten important lore by man that he'll need to combat the Others, and then rigs an election so that he'll become leader of the Night's watch

- found a cache of weapons that can kill Others

- a vastly superior swordsman commits suicide so that Jon can infiltrate the wildlings and then the wildling King just perfectly accepts him no questions asked

- almost immediately upon entering the Night's Watch is elevated through the ranks and given stature by being the Lord Commander's steward and therefore being groomed to lead because Mormont saw "something" in him

Jon is given plenty of typical fantasy plot devices and tropes so that he can just keep trudging through the novels.

[Buried Treasure]

Lol come on now. Jon has:

- one of the best educations available (whether he decided to pay attention or not is not the point)

- trained by a master at arms which gives him a distinct advantage over his fellow brothers and his opponents for most of the books the wildlings

- almost immediately upon entering the Night's Watch is elevated thrplhimthe ranks and given stature by being the Lord Commander's steward and therefore being groomed to lead because Mormont saw "something" in him

If you want to make a long list of everything you see as a trope-y plot gift feel free. But please don't artificially inflate your list by listing these as seperate or special. These are the basic competencies and advantages expected of anybody to reasonably expect them to have half a chance of being a commander.

A small but significant subset of the Westerosi population is given the education and martial training to allow them to lead - nothing special there. 3 young potential future NW officers from that subset have joined the NW in the time of the story: Sam obviously lacked leadership potential, Waymar Royce was already agreed out of squiring so was immediately made a junior officer, and Jon was made a squire to further his training.

Making a big deal of this is like bitching that a youth that went to a good school and attended Sandhurst or West Point is immediately made a Lieutenant in his military, and if he is a good leader is expected to advance to higher rank.

[The Missing Crannogman]

Except that Jon has those three things because of his status as Ned Stark's bastard.

[Cladinator]

Your analysis is good. I don't really think there is anything too crack-potish about it at all. I find it unlikely that Jon ends up being a red herring but he may have a smaller role in a much larger part of the story than everyone once speculated. Though, admittedly, that in itself is just a speculation.

I don't think GRRM will conform to anything for the sake of the genre. I believe he knows how this story will end. I don't think he's trying to row against the current of conventional fantasy story writing. He's telling a good story and he doesn't care about what is being said in social media or what the fantasy writers of the past have done.

It's difficult to see where this story, its characters, and plots are going. We're at a very important part of this story. Is Jon the hero? Is Daenerys? Maybe Bran.

I think at this point it isn't out of the realm of possibility that Daenerys is the ultimate villain. Then again, why not Jon? I think those are possibilities. And either would probably be entertaining developments. But that's why I don't like to say what I think will happen. The story can grow and evolve from here into many different ways.

[Buried Treasure]

Which firmly establishes him as a member of a class for whom receiving those advantages is neither special nor controversial.

Your better argument for his special status as specifically a Stark bastard is support in the voting because of the precedent of Stark and Stark bastard LCs. If Jon Tarly or a bastard Royce had been proposed, his record of defending the Wall might not have been enough to overcome doubts about his age, but he would have still had the advantages of education and would have been made a squire if he'd had the right leadership potential.

[The Missing Crannogman]

No I'm saying that you take away the fact that he's Ned's bastard and he doesn't get any of that. Being Ned's bastard is itself a plot gift.

If Jon wasn't Ned's bastard, or at least raised as his bastard as he might not actually be it, then Jon wouldn't be educated, he wouldn't be trained in the art of war, and Mormont wouldn't have picked him to be his successor. So yes, being Ned's bastard is a plot gift from Martin to Jon's story as he took a bastard and effectively made him a noble in all but name.