I'm Going to Break the Wheel

[Mithras]

... shitty writing by D & D...

Tyrion-Dany exchange was shitty writing in the last episode. It is not even arguable.

[mirthula]

Has anyone considered that the break the wheel speech is just some fancy dialogue they just added in because it sounded cool for the trailers. It might not mean anything, if Dany was really serious I think they would have cut to Tyrion's expression the fact they didn't even bother shows that it is just Dany being dany trying to find her home. Poor Dany home is where family is when you have no family where is your home.

[Ser Knute]

"The Stark special snow flakes?". Well, I think you think you're slick here with this answer. But you're not slick enough. The fact of the matter is that the Northerners have not shown much interest in Southeren affairs, since Aegon's conquest. So how Dany could conclude that the Starks and the Northerners are somehow similarly situated with the Targaryens with respect to the "Game Of Thrones" is beyond me.

Well, actually, it's not beyond me. Dany would conclude that because she knows little about Westeros. It seems that Tyrion could have filled her in on the details of Westerosi history, but for some reason he did not. I don't know why. Either because maybe he is perhaps sandbagging Dany a little or because of shitty writing by D & D.

The Starks historical relationship with the IT and the Southern Kingdoms has nothing to do with them being "Snow Flakes". It's just a historical fact. The type of historical fact that somebody like Dany might want to consider before getting any grand notions.

Also, you are saying here that Dany wants the North to submit to her rule. But, why? Is it really because she wants to help the common people of the North or because she wants her family's kingdom back? If Dany's justification for aggression against the North is to "help the people", then how does that exactly square with the fact that the people there seem to be pretty happy with Stark rule. Well, it really doesn't. So, evidently, her justification for aggression against the North on the grounds of "helping the people" sounds nothing more than a self-serving pretext.

Finally, let's remember that the Aerys fucked over the Starks and they have no particularly good reason to trust Dany.

ETA:

And also the fact the Northerners, to include the commoners, may not want Dany sticking her nose in their business, telling them what they will do has nothing to do with the Starks being "special snowflakes". They may very well feel that they can handle their own problems without her "help".

While much of that is true, it still doesn't equate to 100% confidence for me.

First of all, we don't even know if a Stark will be Lord of WF by the time Dany comes. It seems to be looking like it could happen, but until Rickon is found or Sansa is outted, we've a while to go before a Stark is back in WF, unless we consider Jon, which is a fair consideration.

Secondly, what if the Others start storming south of the wall not long after this battle of ice between Stannis and the Boltons? The North could be a wasteland with few commoners left, we have to consider the Others' army snatching up hordes of wights along the way.

Thirdly, the North IS that hard to rule as we know because of the sheer geographical size. Who in their right minds in the North would actually believe that the Crown is going to send someone (or an Army no less) to HELP them against the Others? I do not expect anyone to travel north that's not already there, at least not in a sizable company, Brienne and Pod maybe. So with a few twists and turns in the right way, the North's people are just as vulnerable now as they were under the Boltons/Lannisters and maybe even Stannis as his Army is likely to take a serious loss during the Battle of Ice and in getting back to the Wall. There's certainly an opportunity for Dany to step in here, let's not be so obtuse. If she flies in on a Dragon and saves a town or village from Others, she may not get the support of the entire north, but I suspect a few will get on board.

And let's not forget another thing, Tyrion. It's entirely possible at this point that when they do reach Westeros, THEIR plans are put off by the Other threat. This could totally shift the cause midstream because, Tyrion would be able to counsel her that he's met this LC on the Wall and he trusts him and if he says there's snarks and grumpkins, well, there are (and after seeing Dragons, I think Tyrion's ideas about snarks and grumpkins is going to change a bit). Dany or Tyrion could fly to the Wall and see what's up, or to Winterfell or wherever they need to go. Point is, if Jon sees that Dany is the 'next' would-be ruler to lend aid, he could well shore up some support for her in the North. Do you expect Aegon or whomever sits the IT at that point is going to send aid? They haven't yet, what makes you feel they will when the shit hits the fan? Or better yet, what if the Crown does want to send aid but can't, where Dany can?

There's a ton of scenarios where Dany can gain support, even in the North. Let's also not forget that the Targaryens and Starks have had good relations before Aerys.

Of course there's also tons of scenarios where none of this happens too.

Let's say for sake of argument that Dany is the reformer (terribly anachronistic for the period). She marches into Westeros, and tells the people there to accept her new ideas or die. That is essentially the question since I doubt if the remaining Lannisters said "No I don't think we will, we like our gold" that Dany would acquiesce. So Dany annihilates House L. Say House Tyrell says, sounds good. They side with her, Dorne says fine. The Tully's say no, and SR no. She proceeds to crush them, because after all her new ideas cannot have borders. So she crushes them. She then asks the Starks, and let's say the north says "sure whatever, just leave us alone". She doesn't find that response satisfactory then demands full submission or war. She annihilates them.

The problem with her approach is that it comes down to 2 things. 1. She claims that she will break the wheel, which she makes a ton of assumptions that everyone will follow her lead. 2. Resistance.

It essentially boils down to the fact that Dany is offering life or death. Bend to me or die. Unless of course you believe that she would accept rejection? That would be completely contrary to her arc thus far. She didn't march through SB and say "yep I will free them, but no you keep your slaves" It was all or nothing. If Dany marches into westeros and declares freedom for commoners and westeros agrees, and then everyone turns to the wall, I will toss this book and mark it as rubbish. Yes she did include House Targaryen, but it is entirely naive to think that she does not intend to remain in power and on top.

See. Martin Luther Jr and Ghandi, etc were reformers. They wanted reform, but not necessarily the "throne". Dany wants the support of commoners, but is not willing to relinquish the throne. There is a huge difference between the two. So yes, she is effectively stating that she will crush the major houses so long as they deny her. If they deny her, and some of them will, she will crush them for not adhering to her beliefs?

I know we only have to go on what she said, but, why act like she can't change her viewpoint or position? What if she sees the Others first hand and realizes whoa, these squabbles I have can wait, this is clearly a danger so big that I have to deal with it or I'll have no small folk to rule anyway?

Everyone seems to be thinking that is is all going to go down without the Others in the midst of it all. I'm not sure that's the case at all. I feel like Dany wants to be a reformer but of course she's not thinking it all the way through.

This is another problem I have with the show because this isn't in the books. Yes, she's smashing the slave trade but Westeros does not have that issue, so that's moot. The main issue here is the wheel speech which may or may not happen in the books. Either way though there's nothing to say that she won't change her mind and what's more is, there's nothing to say that Tyrion and Dany won't have further discussions that DO elude to the details of her plan and make her think more and reassess.

Yes I do get the idea of "my way or the highway" and that does concern me about Dany, but until the show decided to have her roast a master, Dany's worst decision in anger was probably the 163 crucified masters (which of course she responded in kind to, she didn't initiate that of her own accord). The other was the Wineseller. In each case she responds to threats against her.

Dany hasn't yet killed the masters and they don't share her belief system. She may yet roast 'em, but if she does I don't think it'll be because they don't believe in her belief system, it's because they're trying to kill her.

Peace through passivity and dialogue is wholly ideal no? Do you really think a Martin Luther King or Ghandi would make it one fucking day in ASOIAF? I don't think so. They're both extremes, peace through fear of death has worked before and is even used in our own modern day society. Aegon I and his sisters gave the same choice to Westeros before. Some chose to oppose and some chose to bend the need didn't they? Bend the knee or die... like this hasn't been used by countless rulers in this story? But it only applies to Dany? Stannis said the same thing to Renly, I guess he's just as Mad and crazy as Dany.

I really don't think the IT is going to matter much at the end, people are all caught up on what's being said now, but I think it's clear that once the Others break through, the IT is going to be pointless, at least until that whole Long Night thing is resolved. Why don't we see who's left at that point before we write books about Dany's idealism?

I just can't fathom why people expect a 3m dialogue scene to house every freaking possible answer to Dany's arc or the ideas she has when say for example, LF's schemes don't get near that kind of scrutiny. Plus, what KID isn't an idealist? She is still young enough not to be as cynical as we are! :)

[JonisHenryTudor]

I know we only have to go on what she said, but, why act like she can't change her viewpoint or position? What if she sees the Others first hand and realizes whoa, these squabbles I have can wait, this is clearly a danger so big that I have to deal with it or I'll have no small folk to rule anyway?

Everyone seems to be thinking that is is all going to go down without the Others in the midst of it all. I'm not sure that's the case at all. I feel like Dany wants to be a reformer but of course she's not thinking it all the way through.

Oh no doubt she would try and stop the Others. The reason I did not include that is because I was looking more at her outlook and approach to Westeros without the knowledge of the Others. This is one thing she has not seen coming and will be a huge wrench in her plans.

To be fair, India was pretty similar to Westeros under British Rule. So Ghandi might survive. ;)

[Ser Knute]

Oh no doubt she would try and stop the Others. The reason I did not include that is because I was looking more at her outlook and approach to Westeros without the knowledge of the Others. This is one thing she has not seen coming and will be a huge wrench in her plans.

To be fair, India was pretty similar to Westeros under British Rule. So Ghandi might survive. ;)

Ahh I gotcha. Well, I'd agree Ghandi might survive as a religious leader, but as a ruler? I don't know man with all the backstabbing we've seen over the pettiest of things in ASOIAF, I think a guy like Ghandi with his ideals would be a prime target for assassination.

I would agree though that if the show doesn't elaborate on that speech, or do much of anything to kind of keep developing that line of thought it's making her look worse as a leader than she already is. I will totally agree that she has a lot of learning to do and that much of this idealism is probably going to be soured, which I will find a bit sad because I'm hoping she doesn't end up like Aerys. Knowing that the ending is supposed to be bittersweet makes you wonder about any character you might like because I do admit that I'm having trouble not seeing a silver lining for many of our beloved characters. Whether Dany is a protagonist or an antagonist could change by the time it's all over with. But I don't expect Bran, Stannis, Mel, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Rickon, Arya, Jaime, Brienne, Podrick, Baelish, Sandor, Margaery, Theon, Davos, Shireen, Tyrion, Jorah, Aegon, Sam, Tormund, Brynden, Benjen, Meera (Howland), Wyman and maybe even Varys to all make it, and I like all of 'em to varying degrees.

[Drogonthedread]

Ahh I gotcha. Well, I'd agree Ghandi might survive as a religious leader, but as a ruler? I don't know man with all the backstabbing we've seen over the pettiest of things in ASOIAF, I think a guy like Ghandi with his ideals would be a prime target for assassination.

he did got assassinated and now some people are making a hero out of the one who killed him and building a statue for the murderer

[SayGen]

I think it's funny how people think Dany is some liberator and for the justice!

Just cause she is against slavery doesn't make her 'good'.

She has no idea what she is doing, she leads with fear when she fails to understand diplomacy. She has no sense of justice and without BSelmy there to explain to her what is actually just she is lost. Tyrion isn't known for justice either, he is just a walking victim-- and way to vengeful when given even a sliver of power.

But drink the koolaide if you want.

[Lord Freypie]

I think it's funny how people think Dany is some liberator and for the justice!

Just cause she is against slavery doesn't make her 'good'.

She has no idea what she is doing, she leads with fear when she fails to understand diplomacy. She has no sense of justice and without BSelmy there to explain to her what is actually just she is lost. Tyrion isn't known for justice either, he is just a walking victim-- and way to vengeful when given even a sliver of power.

But drink the koolaide if you want.

Show!Daenerys and Show!Tyrion aren't like that.

Remember they replaced Dany ordering the torture of the winseller daughters by Dany being Robb-like and executing an ally for killing a prisoner ennemy.

Remember they replaced Tyrion taking revenge against Shae with Tyrion killing her in self defense.

Etc...

Now of course with extreme-to-extreme characterization D&D like to use to surprise the viewer, the two characters may suddenly become far darker (like they did with Dany when she offered prisoners to her dragons -where was the promise of fair trials suddenly ?-, only to make her make a U-turn and marry Hizdar soon after).

But globally Show!D&T are clearly good characters, with some of their worst actions completely removed, or attitudes replaced with the exact opposite of what they were in the books (see the extent of Tyrion's whitewashing comparing book!Selhorys/show!Volantis brothel scene). I think both are supposed to have a good sense of justice out of the occasionnal impulsive decision, as opposed to their book counterparts.

(ps : also note the vengeful motivation of Tyrion who in the books says things like he is willing to serve Dany "as long she allow him to kill his brother and rape his sister" has been completely removed in favor of a Tyrion willing to serve Dany "as long she is not mad and would make a good ruler", they are just completely different characters at this point of the story -not that I believe Tyrion will stay as obsessed by vengeance in the books, but show has at least taken an huge shortcut in his evolution)

[Drogonthedread]

nvm

[RuRo]

Just another regal queen speech or bold proclamation designed to be put over the trailers so that "Kelly C, Mother Of Dragons!" fans can get hyped, but that ends up just being a forced in and out of place monologue from wooden Daenerys in a scene with a better actor. Tyrion's eye roll during it said it all - it was this episode's equivalent of Bronn's "For fuck's sake."