Conspiracy of the Citadel (or the secret society of grey men)

[White Ravens]

There's also Greyguard on the Wall. It's where Jon and the wildlings climbed the Wall and he was going to send Janos Slynt there to command it.

And let's not forget Grey Wind. Grey AND dead. Of course Lady is dead too, so what does that mean?

[DarkSister1001]

And let's not forget Grey Wind. Grey AND dead. Of course Lady is dead too, so what does that mean?

Shit's getting real.

[noshots00]

I'm just a show watcher and no expert but I wanted to chime in here:

Pycelle is not just a maester, but the Grandmaester. So in a way he represents the citadel and the conclave. And what do we know about Pycelle? That he presents himself as non-threatening, almost crippled, and perhaps somewhat naive and slow witted when in fact Pycelle is none of these things. I think that's a big clue from GRRM that the Citadel has been putting up an act all these years. They say power lies where men believe it lies. But like a dagger hidden under a pillow, that isn't always true.

[Daendrew]

Even though his examples were a little iffy, using "grey" for death has been somewhat used within the series:

-The Silent Sisters/Stoneheart are garbed in grey, the "handmaids" of death.

-Greyscale- pretty much the deadliest sickness within the series.

Greybeards are the old men who go out in the winter and maybe we find their bodies, maybe we don't.

You know nothing Daen Snow.

[Mithras]

I support the Citadel conspiracy. Magic should be wiped out from the earth.

[mmenolas]

Even though his examples were a little iffy, using "grey" for death has been somewhat used within the series:

-The Silent Sisters/Stoneheart are garbed in grey, the "handmaids" of death.

-Greyscale- pretty much the deadliest sickness within the series.

Greyscale is not even close to the deadliest sickness in Planetos. How about the Great Spring Sickness? Or the Red Death that killed 90% of the population in the Basilisk Isles?

[OberynBlackfyre]

Greyscale is not even close to the deadliest sickness in Planetos. How about the Great Spring Sickness? Or the Red Death that killed 90% of the population in the Basilisk Isles?

it is the deadliest as in terms of how it is spread throughout the known world. I mean even the Wildlings knew about it.....and it's the only sickness that basically has a colony of people (The Bridge of Dream)

[OberynBlackfyre]

You could even claim that the FM founded Braavos. The first FM assisted slaves in the Valyrian mines in finding the death they prayed for. For a time, that's all the first FM did - kill the slaves who prayed to be put out of their misery. As slaves were from different regions all over, they had different gods they prayed to for this death. Hence he realized there was actually only one true god 'Death' but with many faces for the worshipers. Then one slave does not pray for his own death, but prays for the death of a slave master, and the slave says in his prayer he would give anything he has for the slave master to be killed. So, the FM thinks "alright, I'll answer that prayer too," kills the master and then tells the slave who prayed for it that he answered his prayer, and now he must give everything he has, and all he has as a slave is his life, and so he must become a servant of the Many Faced God, and that slave becomes the second FM. It is heavily implied that the FM caused the doom of Valyria, to bring down the empire of slave masters. Braavos was founded by runaway slaves, and kept hidden from knowledge for a very long time. So, the FM are probably the founders of Braavos itself. Anything remotely like slavery is forbidden - slavery, reaving, ... And Braavos is the city with the main house of the FM, perhaps the sole house of black and white in Planetos.

While they have joint dislike for dragons with the maesters, they do not shun magic itself. The wearing of the faces is a form of magic, and they know how to glamor too. I think for example that the price Euron had to pay for the murder of Balon was to chuck his dragon egg overboard. He wants to posess a dragon, and the FM made sure at least one egg ended up at the bottom of the ocean, and no dragon could ever come off it.

The representation of the FM is very deceptive imo: supposedly they ask outrageous sums of money (per LF). Personally I think they didn't want to kill the person LF inquired the price for, and they just said a sum they knew he'd say "No way, I can buy 2 sellsword armies for that." It's a tactic where they haven't said "no" in an outright way, but ensure the one trying to hire them forgets about the whole idea. It's said they kill both good and bad man. And yet, with the info and the targets we know of - the FM assist the good people who pray for suicide (they kill the good), and assassinate the parasites somebody else wants dead (and sometimes almost for free. Arya throws an axe at a cage on fire, and she gets to name 3, with Jaqen insisting on Joffrey - a king - being hte last name). Sure, the kindly man tells Arya it's not for her to judge her given targets... it doesn't mean that the FM don't judge, just that an acolyte called Arya who's carrying out a mission shouldn't concern herself with rationalisations and judgement.

The kindly man assures Arya that the abusive father of the ugly girl is dead. She asks then, whether the FM killed him. He answers her question twice by not really answering. First he says the ugly girl didn't pray for the father's death, only her own (well he didn't say the latter, but that's evident since they have her face). The second time he says the abusive father died like all men do (implying either some accident or natural death nothing to do with the FM), but then he ends the sentence with 'just like a certain man will die tomorrow'. And we all know how the ship insurance conman dies - by Arya's sleight of hand and poison provided by the FM. So, in fact I believe the abusive father was killed by an FM, without someone actively praying for it. If the faces of the dead tell the story of the person wanting to die, then the FM can possibly use that to find their own targets.That seems to go against what Arya is taught, but it isn't. These are the inner workings of the FM she as an acolyte cannot know about. And the kindly man mostly talks in terms "it's not your [fill in whatever you like]".

At face value, Arya's blindness seems a punishment for her killing the deserter, and yet in fact it's the next step into her training from servant to acolyte. She kills the singer deserter, unauthorized, and she gets a training of her senses that we know other acolytes go through as well. Once she conquers the test, she gets to be an acolyte and her first assignment. Seems to me, they weren't so bothered by her choice of target and the manner in which she did it. They just don't want to tell her that.

Don't know why so many readers loathe the FM or find Arya's chapters with them so boring... I find them very subtly written. You truly need to read between the lines of what's happening.

I for one, love the whole FM story lines. I mean honestly if Arya's story was written from only her POV I would still rank it among my favorite books, because her character is just so interesting and well written. I mean maybe I am biased because I thoroughly enjoy deadly female characters, but I think the addition of Aryas at first naivety and innocence really makes her story arc that much more powerful.

Going on to the FM......LF isn't the only one that states how expensive they are. I believe Xaro Xhoan Daxos also says something about them, and even the Waif tells Arya they took 1/3 of her fathers fortune when they killed her step mother. I personally don't think they NEED the money, or ask for it out of greed, only they want people to understand that taking a life is costly. I don't think that the FM would only ask for money either, but rather go for something that the person holds very dear. In a way, the philosophy somewhat is akin to "the man who makes the judgement, should also swing the sword" type of thing.....only the FM are the "embodiment" of the said sword.

And really I think the FM colors are black and white simply because they really ARE one track minded in many ways. There is either life or death, you are no one or someone, no in between.

What has yet to be seen though is: do the FM take ANY contract so long as the person pays, or does it have to be a "murder for justice" type of thing?

[KnightTime]

I'm just a show watcher and no expert but I wanted to chime in here:

Pycelle is not just a maester, but the Grandmaester. So in a way he represents the citadel and the conclave. And what do we know about Pycelle? That he presents himself as non-threatening, almost crippled, and perhaps somewhat naive and slow witted when in fact Pycelle is none of these things. I think that's a big clue from GRRM that the Citadel has been putting up an act all these years. They say power lies where men believe it lies. But like a dagger hidden under a pillow, that isn't always true.

He's dead. It is known

[KnightTime]

Maybe there is a secret war between the maesters and the fm?

[mmenolas]

it is the deadliest as in terms of how it is spread throughout the known world. I mean even the Wildlings knew about it.....and it's the only sickness that basically has a colony of people (The Bridge of Dream)

I just assumed that by "deadliest" you meant CFR, or something related to how deadly it was. Not how widespread or well known it was. Either way, the claim was that grey relates to death, but I'm pointing out that it's a stretch to make that claim. When it comes to diseases, the one with Red in the name is more deadly. Should we instead change our opinion and state that Red=death? It sounds like this OP is on very shaky legs.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I just assumed that by "deadliest" you meant CFR, or something related to how deadly it was. Not how widespread or well known it was. Either way, the claim was that grey relates to death, but I'm pointing out that it's a stretch to make that claim. When it comes to diseases, the one with Red in the name is more deadly. Should we instead change our opinion and state that Red=death? It sounds like this OP is on very shaky legs.

ummmmm no where in my OP does it say grey=death in terms of Maesters=death. Someone replied stating that there are symbols of death that have to do a lot with the color grey. I agreed. Please do not insult my OP, that took a long time and provides ample evidence, with a statement that has nothing to do with the OP. Also you have only provided one instance of a disease with "red" in the name being more deadly. That would hardly be enough evidence for me to change that opinion.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Maybe there is a secret war between the maesters and the fm?

You know what, that would be interesting. They are both "secret" orders, whose motivations seem very unclear for the moment. I mean, if so, I would think that the FM are winning as they obviously have an agent that is about to make a whole lot of trouble for the Citadel, that is INSIDE THE CITADEL lol.

[mmenolas]

ummmmm no where in my OP does it say grey=death in terms of Maesters=death. Someone replied stating that there are symbols of death that have to do a lot with the color grey. I agreed. Please do not insult my OP, that took a long time and provides ample evidence, with a statement that has nothing to do with the OP. Also you have only provided one instance of a disease with "red" in the name being more deadly. That would hardly be enough evidence for me to change that opinion.

Fair point- The OP does not have grey=death, it was your reply that agreed with that. I should not have claimed the OP said grey=death, though you did agree to that claim, even though there is no evidence for that. And yes, I provided one instance of Red being more death-related than grey. I wasn't seriously suggesting that meant red=death, because throwing out exhaustive theories based on one or two words and logical leaps is not my thing.

But I do apologize for misrepresenting that the OP said grey=death. And because that wasn't in the OP, I won't bring it up again. Somehow I got sidetracked when you agreed to the comment about grey=death (the examples provided were all poor). Since that's not in OP, I'll let it go.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Fair point- The OP does not have grey=death, it was your reply that agreed with that. I should not have claimed the OP said grey=death, though you did agree to that claim, even though there is no evidence for that. And yes, I provided one instance of Red being more death-related than grey. I wasn't seriously suggesting that meant red=death, because throwing out exhaustive theories based on one or two words and logical leaps is not my thing.

As far as the OP providing ample evidence, I still have to disagree with that. It provides speculation at best- though it mostly seems to be you cherrypicking tidbits to fit into a theory, rather than a theory that actually reflects the evidence presented in the text.

I thank you for that clarification and opinions!

[Archmaester Drew]

Interesting OP! :cheers:

However, I don't think that the Citadel had anything to do with the attempt to poison Daenerys in Vaes Dothrak. That was before she had dragons and was no more threat to them than see had always been. :)

[Archmaester Drew]

You could even claim that the FM founded Braavos. The first FM assisted slaves in the Valyrian mines in finding the death they prayed for. For a time, that's all the first FM did - kill the slaves who prayed to be put out of their misery. As slaves were from different regions all over, they had different gods they prayed to for this death. Hence he realized there was actually only one true god 'Death' but with many faces for the worshipers. Then one slave does not pray for his own death, but prays for the death of a slave master, and the slave says in his prayer he would give anything he has for the slave master to be killed. So, the FM thinks "alright, I'll answer that prayer too," kills the master and then tells the slave who prayed for it that he answered his prayer, and now he must give everything he has, and all he has as a slave is his life, and so he must become a servant of the Many Faced God, and that slave becomes the second FM. It is heavily implied that the FM caused the doom of Valyria, to bring down the empire of slave masters. Braavos was founded by runaway slaves, and kept hidden from knowledge for a very long time. So, the FM are probably the founders of Braavos itself. Anything remotely like slavery is forbidden - slavery, reaving, ... And Braavos is the city with the main house of the FM, perhaps the sole house of black and white in Planetos.

While they have joint dislike for dragons with the maesters, they do not shun magic itself. The wearing of the faces is a form of magic, and they know how to glamor too. I think for example that the price Euron had to pay for the murder of Balon was to chuck his dragon egg overboard. He wants to posess a dragon, and the FM made sure at least one egg ended up at the bottom of the ocean, and no dragon could ever come off it.

The representation of the FM is very deceptive imo: supposedly they ask outrageous sums of money (per LF). Personally I think they didn't want to kill the person LF inquired the price for, and they just said a sum they knew he'd say "No way, I can buy 2 sellsword armies for that." It's a tactic where they haven't said "no" in an outright way, but ensure the one trying to hire them forgets about the whole idea. It's said they kill both good and bad man. And yet, with the info and the targets we know of - the FM assist the good people who pray for suicide (they kill the good), and assassinate the parasites somebody else wants dead (and sometimes almost for free. Arya throws an axe at a cage on fire, and she gets to name 3, with Jaqen insisting on Joffrey - a king - being hte last name). Sure, the kindly man tells Arya it's not for her to judge her given targets... it doesn't mean that the FM don't judge, just that an acolyte called Arya who's carrying out a mission shouldn't concern herself with rationalisations and judgement.

The kindly man assures Arya that the abusive father of the ugly girl is dead. She asks then, whether the FM killed him. He answers her question twice by not really answering. First he says the ugly girl didn't pray for the father's death, only her own (well he didn't say the latter, but that's evident since they have her face). The second time he says the abusive father died like all men do (implying either some accident or natural death nothing to do with the FM), but then he ends the sentence with 'just like a certain man will die tomorrow'. And we all know how the ship insurance conman dies - by Arya's sleight of hand and poison provided by the FM. So, in fact I believe the abusive father was killed by an FM, without someone actively praying for it. If the faces of the dead tell the story of the person wanting to die, then the FM can possibly use that to find their own targets.That seems to go against what Arya is taught, but it isn't. These are the inner workings of the FM she as an acolyte cannot know about. And the kindly man mostly talks in terms "it's not your [fill in whatever you like]".

At face value, Arya's blindness seems a punishment for her killing the deserter, and yet in fact it's the next step into her training from servant to acolyte. She kills the singer deserter, unauthorized, and she gets a training of her senses that we know other acolytes go through as well. Once she conquers the test, she gets to be an acolyte and her first assignment. Seems to me, they weren't so bothered by her choice of target and the manner in which she did it. They just don't want to tell her that.

Don't know why so many readers loathe the FM or find Arya's chapters with them so boring... I find them very subtly written. You truly need to read between the lines of what's happening.

Good points! :cheers:

[OberynBlackfyre]

Interesting OP! :cheers:

However, I don't think that the Citadel had anything to do with the attempt to poison Daenerys in Vaes Dothrak. That was before she had dragons and was no more threat to them than see had always been. :)

thank you! And yeah I definitely agree that the poisoning at Vaes Dothrak could very NOT have been them, however as far as timing goes it seems iffy that it would have come from the Iron Throne's edict as well. Plus I think the Citadel always looked at the Targaryens as a "chance" of something happening with dragons again.