NzForever Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I just watched S4 E10 and stannis had massive army when he attacked Mance and he had a lot of horses.On Season 5 Episode 10, he had hardly any men, only about 1/4 of what he had in Season 4. How many men left when he burnt his daughter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calo760 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 All of the sell-swords, they said. About half his army with all the horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What the Tarth Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 some even left before the burning incident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Seems like rushed broken plotline. Are we really supposed to believe that loyal Baratheon bannerman and Calvary deserted their king because he burnt his daughter alive? He has been burning people all along, why would they care now. These are also the men who went north of the wall, fought in the battle of blackwater etc. What is even more funny is that he doesnt know until the next day. Seriously ALL your horses leave your camp and no one notices. hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Seems like rushed broken plotline. Are we really supposed to believe that loyal Baratheon bannerman and Calvary deserted their king because he burnt his daughter alive? He has been burning people all along, why would they care now. These are also the men who went north of the wall, fought in the battle of blackwater etc. What is even more funny is that he doesnt know until the next day. Seriously ALL your horses leave your camp and no one notices. hahaha. It's actually worse I think it's the sellswords who desert because of the burning. Men who war for money neutral until you pay them why would they even care i get why 50 knights would ride off but 2k sellswords just no no one tried to stop them or no one noticed and both are stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Seems like rushed broken plotline. Are we really supposed to believe that loyal Baratheon bannerman and Calvary deserted their king because he burnt his daughter alive? He has been burning people all along, why would they care now. These are also the men who went north of the wall, fought in the battle of blackwater etc. What is even more funny is that he doesnt know until the next day. Seriously ALL your horses leave your camp and no one notices. hahaha. That's just unfair. All the horses didn't leave, there was one left and they watched as Melisandre stole it and bailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaSansa Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Isn't Stannis the greatest commander in the 7 kingdoms? Is book Stannis this stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Sellswords fight for gold. They don't give two shits about the moral principles of the man they're fighting for. They certainly wouldn't leave before getting paid. And no, book!Stannis is not this stupid. Book!Stannis would never be as witless as to lead from the front. Stannis and Tywin are the best battle commanders in Westeros, and they command from the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 It's actually worse I think it's the sellswords who desert because of the burning. Men who war for money neutral until you pay them why would they even care i get why 50 knights would ride off but 2k sellswords just no no one tried to stop them or no one noticed and both are stupid. Davos tells Stannis in season 3, I think, that all the men left to him are fanatics and that not one of them is of any note. I can see why his own men did not leave, they totally buy into the Red God. The sellswords, on the other hand, I can see them deserting en masse. The guy just burned his daughter alive, they have no food maybe they knew or suspected the Boltons had a larger force, perhaps Ramsey and his 20 men bribed them. As far as them taking off with all the remaining horses without anybody knowing or causing a fight, I can't believe that nobody knew but I could see Stannis's men just letting them go. His guys have no where to go, I could see them sympathising with them and letting them slink away since they do have other places they can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 What other places? They're in the middle of the North, and none of the Northern houses need troops. Well... not in the show anyway Why would the Boltons take them in after they know Stannis only has 2,500 men? I wouldn't, that's just more mouths to feed, and more of Fat Walda's dowry to spend. As for Stannis' loyalists being firm believers in the Red God, this is a myth. Only the queen's men believe in R'hllor, and they make up a fraction of Stannis' forces. The rest are there because they believe in his cause, and loyalty to house Baratheon. As I said, sellswords fight for gold. Do you think the sellswords that fought in the war of the ninepenny kings cared about what their leadership did? Look at all the horrible people in Essos who had sellsword company's. And, as a book source, The Brave Companions were incredibly evil. They would have applauded Stannis burning his daughter, as long as they were paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Sellswords fight for gold. They don't give two shits about the moral principles of the man they're fighting for. They certainly wouldn't leave before getting paid. And no, book!Stannis is not this stupid. Book!Stannis would never be as witless as to lead from the front. Stannis and Tywin are the best battle commanders in Westeros, and they command from the rear. See I could get my head around all the sellswords abandoning him. it was cold, he had no food. They might have just said F this, its not worth the gold. On the other hand, Stannis clearly had knights, and they do not abandon their king, otherwise they are no knights at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Once again, where would they go? And things were clearly looking up for Stannis.Also, they are right next to a lake they are fishing, they didn't have "no food". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 What other places? They're in the middle of the North, and none of the Northern houses need troops. Well... not in the show anyway Why would the Boltons take them in after they know Stannis only has 2,500 men? I wouldn't, that's just more mouths to feed, and more of Fat Walda's dowry to spend. As for Stannis' loyalists being firm believers in the Red God, this is a myth. Only the queen's men believe in R'hllor, and they make up a fraction of Stannis' forces. The rest are there because they believe in his cause, and loyalty to house Baratheon. As I said, sellswords fight for gold. Do you think the sellswords that fought in the war of the ninepenny kings cared about what their leadership did? Look at all the horrible people in Essos who had sellsword company's. And, as a book source, The Brave Companions were incredibly evil. They would have applauded Stannis burning his daughter, as long as they were paid.In the TV show there are no Kings Men(except Davos) or Queens Men. In the TV show I can only go off of what Davos said, which is that his remaining followers are all fanatics and nobodies. They are also traitiors who can't return to their own lands. The sellswords on the other hand can leave if they get back to the boats at Eastwatch. Yes, I agree, that sellswords fight for gold. They also prefer fights where they have a decent chance of surviving and enjoying that gold they were paid. They don't like fighting hopeless battles for leaders who are insane. The Brave Companions pretty much abandoned Vargo Hoat to a man once it was clear that he was finished and Tywin meant to crush him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How do they know they're going to lose? If Stannis doesn't know the strength of the Boltons, how do they? I think the real question here is; "where do sellswords go?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Lyon Layden Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I love the way the series handled this. Excellent tragedy. Stannis knows he can't win after the second desertions and Mel slipping off. but what can he do now? He's burnt his daughter, in the middle of the snow, a sitting duck, so he's past the point of no return.He's going to lose to the Bolton's in the books too, despite all the theorizing about holes in lakes and what-not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Seems like rushed broken plotline. Are we really supposed to believe that loyal Baratheon bannerman and Calvary deserted their king because he burnt his daughter alive? He has been burning people all along, why would they care now. These are also the men who went north of the wall, fought in the battle of blackwater etc. When has he been "burning people all along"? We only saw him burn three people once, in season 4, apparently for being unbelievers. None of them were children, and none of them were his blood relatives (though one of them was Selyse's brother). You don't see how burning your child is a bit more extreme? And, you know how important it is for a monarch to have an heir, especially if he is involved in a war of succession? Shireen was his only child and heir. He and Selyse were not likely to produce another child, and even if they were, it weakened his current position a lot, and he also has no relatives he could appoint as his heir. (There's just one lowborn, uneducated bastard nephew that's who-knows-where, still rowing...) So, he destroyed the Baratheon dynasty. Nobody remotely sane would ever do that, even if they were a heartless bastard only interested in the throne, as D&D think Stannis is. Because it is idiotic and self-destructive. If we're gonna talk realism and historical accuracy, which show defenders like to bring up a lot, in real life, a monarch's position or a pretender's chances were strengthened greatly if they had an heir, and weakened tremendously if they did not. Why would people support someone's claim to the throne if he is unlikely to bring any stability to the realm after he wins? If you have a king with no heir, the unresolved succession problem is likely to create a lot of trouble, and if he has, say, a heart-attack the next day, then what? The country again descends into chaos. Which are all reasons why it made no sense for Stannis to burn Shireen to win a stupid battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Kinslayers are cursed and a man/King that kills his own daughter and only heir is really something to despise. Mel led him down that path and probably got out of there before he burned her. Yes, the showiters needed Stannis out of the way to make room for a resurgence of house Stark in the North, The Vale is ccoming too but what will happen when 3 armies converge in and near Winterfell. Vale, Boltons, Starks/Norherners. LF wants it all but I think in the end, the Vale and Stark/Northerners will overthrow Littlefinger and hopefully Sansa kills him, for poetic reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Once again, where would they go? And things were clearly looking up for Stannis. Also, they are right next to a lake they are fishing, they didn't have "no food". Considering that Mel made it to the wall in a matter of hours, I suspect they could really go anywhere they wanted if they were truley going to turn their cloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How do you know this timeframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarkar Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 How do you know this timeframe? Its a joke. isnt the timeframe irrelevant? Stannis was told his men left overnight. Mel left at what appeared to be early morning, after Stannis found out about the men leaving. The point is, if Mel can make it from Winterfell to the Wall, on her own, it seems logical that the men who abandoned Stannis would also have an easy time going wherever it is they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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