How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It seems Randyll Tarly wanted to be the maester of Sam's fate rather than letting him grow up to be the maester of his own fate.

So he should have allowed him to be heir despite his significant lack of leadership and confidence? Screw the other Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill as long as we dont upset Sam's feelings.

It is the medieval ages, Randyll could drop dead at any time and Sam would have replaced him. Sam is not fit to lead a House in that society. He would have had little respect from his vassals, allies and enemies despite his hidden depths.

Sam being the way he was may be Randylls fault, may be some other deeper mental issue or it may be that Sam just never tried. The sad fact is that the damage was done. Randyll had to think of the greater good and that meant removing Sam from inheriting.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I don't recall House Martell objecting to Oberyn's training, either.

Notice how just training at the Citadel does not remove a noble from inheriting. Randyll had no choice but to send him to the Wall.

Well he is changing, but not thanks to Randlly. Or do you expect to go from angsty to superbadassmotherfooker in a month?

Of course it's thanks to Randyll, he sent him to the Wall. Best thing that he ever did.

[Julia H.]

So he should have allowed him to be heir despite his significant lack of leadership and confidence? Screw the other Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill as long as we dont upset Sam's feelings.

It is the medieval ages, Randyll could drop dead at any time and Sam would have replaced him. Sam is not fit to lead a House in that society. He would have had little respect from his vassals, allies and enemies despite his hidden depths.

Sam being the way he was may be Randylls fault, may be some other deeper mental issue or it may be that Sam just never tried. The sad fact is that the damage was done. Randyll had to think of the greater good and that meant removing Sam from inheriting.

LOL, where did I say that? How did you jump to this conclusion?

I have dedicated quite a few posts to this thread by now, so I think I have made my view clear. Sam told Randyll what he wanted. It was not to become lord of Horn Hill.

But even if his father wanted him to learn leadership and gain confidence, his methods just prove his incompetence as a father.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

No he hasn't.

You do realize that Lazy Leo is being flippant to Sam. In both the prologue and epilogue of AFFC he is mocking every single person he talks to including Sam.

I will give you that perhaps Lazy Leo was bullshitting Sam (though he might just as well tell him a truth that he knew it was painfull for Sam to hear). That, by no means, takes away the reason behind Randyll's decision to send Sam to the NW, which is the most effective way to disinherit him.

I think it's quite obvious that some people have a huge emotional attachmemt to the fictional character "Sam", maybe even project their own lives on him.

But they are making a huge mistake by applying 21st century first world standards when the world Sam lives in simply doesnt support those standard and values. Often for very practical reasons.

Maybe in the year 2015, in the first world, we can afford to be angsty and whiny but go back only 60/70 years and that luxury doesnt exist anymore.

I am a firm supporter of contextualization (of morals, ideas, mindsets). I judge Sam and his father in their context. Randyll is beyond any kind of "normality" as far as we can know (both by book and rl historical precedence), and Sam is one of the few who could afford to be who he is because he's a noble. We know that a lord can choose his heir though it is uncommon - Tywin planned to remove Tyrion from succession, in the Sworn Sword Rohanne's inheritance was conditional etc.

So he should have allowed him to be heir despite his significant lack of leadership and confidence? Screw the other Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill as long as we dont upset Sam's feelings.

It is the medieval ages, Randyll could drop dead at any time and Sam would have replaced him. Sam is not fit to lead a House in that society. He would have had little respect from his vassals, allies and enemies despite his hidden depths.

Sam being the way he was may be Randylls fault, may be some other deeper mental issue or it may be that Sam just never tried. The sad fact is that the damage was done. Randyll had to think of the greater good and that meant removing Sam from inheriting.

BS. Going to the Citadel means being removed from the line of succession. If Sam was all of the sudden to forswear his vows and make a move for Horn Hill against Randyll's chosen heir, and manage to succeed on that as well, that would mean that Sam would have magically "manned up" and became exactly the sort of heir that Randyll would have wished for.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

BS. Going to the Citadel means being removed from the line of succession.

No it does not. Lord Lyonal Strong, Lord of Harrnehal, studied at the Citadel for a number of years earning 6 chains without ever becoming a Maester. The same is true of Oberyn.

Being an acolyte does not stop you from inheriting, being a Maester should do though we saw that Aemon had to become a Nights Watch member to safely remove himself from inheriting.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

LOL, where did I say that? How did you jump to this conclusion?

I have dedicated quite a few posts to this thread by now, so I think I have made my view clear. Sam told Randyll what he wanted. It was not to become lord of Horn Hill.

And I think its quite apparent that Sam becoming a maester would take years at best, and possibly not at all. All that time he's still be the heir of Horn Hill.

Considering the ages of Ned and Randylls children it seems that both are of a similar age. Can you imagine Sam leading the troops in a war like those two men, it would be a disaster.

But even if his father wanted him to learn leadership and gain confidence, his methods just prove his incompetence as a father.

Dickon seems to be fine.

How do you know it was Randyll's fault that Sam was the way he was, why not his mother's or even something else unrelated to his parents.

Randyll, according to Sam, tried. As the Westeros psychology was probably not as advanced as ours he was probably not have been given the same advice as to how to deal with Sam. What failed with him may have worked with other young squires. It is not like Randyll was alone in his thinking. Paxter Redwyne and 12 Master of Arms also thought he was a lost cause.

[Victarion10]

Sam only has himself to blame, all he had to do was atleast try and maybe he wouldn't have been sent to the wall. How hard can it be to stop eating and work out. It's not like Sam didn't have time or means to train. He was just lazy and whiny. All he had to do was to be competent (Not a big ask for a noble) and he could have read all he wanted. If he showed a shred of backbone he would have been fine.

Makes me laugh how all the Samwell Tarly get called out for being potential child abusers then all the fangirls wanted Randyll to die a horrible and inhuman death, get a grip.

[Ygrain]

Makes me laugh how all the Samwell Tarly get called out for being potential child abusers then all the fangirls wanted Randyll to die a horrible and inhuman death, get a grip.

Oh, I sure don't want him to die. I want him to live, and enjoy all that treatment that he has given others so readily.

[Victarion10]

Oh, I sure don't want him to die. I want him to live, and enjoy all that treatment that he has given others so readily.

So basically you want him abused? Which makes you just as bad as Randyll, you do know that?

[DigitalCount]

Not really, the comparison would only be apt if Sam himself had been an abuser. It's a bit more like an eye for an eye, whereas Randyll was "an eye for a fingernail."

Wanting a grown man to be punished for being an abuser is not the same as wanting a little child to be punished for not punching his way out of his mother's womb.

Furthermore, some posters here have claimed that Randyll's treatment of Sam was not abuse by any standard. This of course means that they do not consider it abuse by their own standard, since one's own standard is a subset of any given standard by definition. These people are rightly labeled as being potential child abusers, because they justify the use of abuse. Yes, Sam and Randyll are fictional characters, but this question essentially presents this as a hypothetical situation where we're discussing if the actions themselves are abusive. An action does not become less abusive when it's done by a fictional character.

[Victarion10]

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what? 20 stone at the age of 17? That's a dangerous level of obesity for someone so young. I imagine his BMI would indicate that he was severly obese. Yes his methods were extreme, forcing him to diet and train wasn't working so he had to go to extreme lengths.

Here are a few articles that prove Randyll's methods weren't just abuse and would actually have worked if Sam had applied himself and dedicated to working hard.

his an article that proves that a boy at 20 stone at the age of 14 (probably what sam would have been) can turn his life around with hardwork and dedication rather than being a whiny spoiled kid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3019315/A-20-stone-teenager-addicted-Xbox-loses-HALF-body-weight-swapping-Chinese-takeaways-tough-military-training.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3070005/Overweight-teenager-loses-four-stone-just-TWENTY-WEEKS-exercising-three-hours-day-eating-just-1-000-calories.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/5146778/Britains-fattest-teenager-loses-12-stone-in-seven-months..html

[Marcus Agrippa]

The poster is right about one thing- sam wouldn't beable to be a lord in the reach. The politics their are insaning. One wrong move and its over. As for ops reasoning... dude, go see a doctor. hating a fictional character is cause for concern.

[Marcus Agrippa]

db

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Oh, I sure don't want him to die. I want him to live, and enjoy all that treatment that he has given others so readily.

Of course you should want him to live. Unlike the Westerland and Northern troops, Randyll actually keeps his soldiers in line and punishes them if they rape civilians.

Randyll so far has been one of the few Lords trying to repair the damage done in the Riverlands.

He also saved Brienne from being raped by Stormland and Reach soldiers.

He has done far more good in the series than bad.

[Winter's Knight]

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what? 20 stone at the age of 17? That's a dangerous level of obesity for someone so young. I imagine his BMI would indicate that he was severly obese. Yes his methods were extreme, forcing him to diet and train wasn't working so he had to go to extreme lengths.

Here are a few articles that prove Randyll's methods weren't just abuse and would actually have worked if Sam had applied himself and dedicated to working hard.

his an article that proves that a boy at 20 stone at the age of 14 (probably what sam would have been) can turn his life around with hardwork and dedication rather than being a whiny spoiled kid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3019315/A-20-stone-teenager-addicted-Xbox-loses-HALF-body-weight-swapping-Chinese-takeaways-tough-military-training.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3070005/Overweight-teenager-loses-four-stone-just-TWENTY-WEEKS-exercising-three-hours-day-eating-just-1-000-calories.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/5146778/Britains-fattest-teenager-loses-12-stone-in-seven-months..html

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what? 20 stone at the age of 17? That's a dangerous level of obesity for someone so young. I imagine his BMI would indicate that he was severly obese. Yes his methods were extreme, forcing him to diet and train wasn't working so he had to go to extreme lengths.

Here are a few articles that prove Randyll's methods weren't just abuse and would actually have worked if Sam had applied himself and dedicated to working hard.

his an article that proves that a boy at 20 stone at the age of 14 (probably what sam would have been) can turn his life around with hardwork and dedication rather than being a whiny spoiled kid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3019315/A-20-stone-teenager-addicted-Xbox-loses-HALF-body-weight-swapping-Chinese-takeaways-tough-military-training.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3070005/Overweight-teenager-loses-four-stone-just-TWENTY-WEEKS-exercising-three-hours-day-eating-just-1-000-calories.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/5146778/Britains-fattest-teenager-loses-12-stone-in-seven-months..html

I don't see anything in these articles suggesting that these children were physically or emotionally abused by their fathers. Some people will do anything to justify their own self-serving, violent tendencies. Randyl is a violent, spiteful man who was fortunate enough to live in a violent world that fits his personality. The only reason I or anyone should cut him any slack is that Westeros truly is on the brink of something nightmarish, and the Tarly house truly is threatened.

That said, the Citadel is the right place for someone like Sam.

[Victarion10]

I don't see anything in these articles suggesting that these children were physically or emotionally abused by their fathers. Some people will do anything to justify their own self-serving, violent tendencies. Randyl is a violent, spiteful man who was fortunate enough to live in a violent world that fits his personality. The only reason I or anyone should cut him any slack is that Westeros truly is on the brink of something nightmarish, and the Tarly house truly is threatened.

That said, the Citadel is the right place for someone like Sam.

All these people have undergone some for of military style training, which was given to Sam. However these people complied and accepted that their weight was a serious issue, something sam doesn't do. All he needed to do was dedicate himself to a healthier lifestyle and comply with the training he was given and he would have been fine. Instead he played the "I'm a fat craven card" which lead to more and more extreme measure until his father gave up on him. Luckily Sam wasn't born a peasant otherwise he would have died a long time ago.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

All these people have undergone some for of military style training, which was given to Sam. However these people complied and accepted that their weight was a serious issue, something sam doesn't do. All he needed to do was dedicate himself to a healthier lifestyle and comply with the training he was given and he would have been fine. Instead he played the "I'm a fat craven card" which lead to more and more extreme measure until his father gave up on him. Luckily Sam wasn't born a peasant otherwise he would have died a long time ago.

Again "training" or even "military style training" isn't a catch all. We don't know that these kids were threatened with death, and being sent to the wall isn't the same as being sent to the gym.

It's probably best if we avoid these tangential modern stories anyway. This isn't a thread about modern weight loss techniques.

[Victarion10]

Again "training" or even "military style training" isn't a catch all. We don't know that these kids were threatened with death, and being sent to the wall isn't the same as being sent to the gym.

It's probably best if we avoid these tangential modern stories anyway. This isn't a thread about modern weight loss techniques.

Actually most of them were but it was more of "Lose weight or you will die." Randyll didn't start out abusive, it was only after sam failed TWELVE master at arms training.

[Ygrain]

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what? 20 stone at the age of 17? That's a dangerous level of obesity for someone so young. I imagine his BMI would indicate that he was severly obese. Yes his methods were extreme, forcing him to diet and train wasn't working so he had to go to extreme lengths.

Here are a few articles that prove Randyll's methods weren't just abuse and would actually have worked if Sam had applied himself and dedicated to working hard.

his an article that proves that a boy at 20 stone at the age of 14 (probably what sam would have been) can turn his life around with hardwork and dedication rather than being a whiny spoiled kid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3019315/A-20-stone-teenager-addicted-Xbox-loses-HALF-body-weight-swapping-Chinese-takeaways-tough-military-training.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3070005/Overweight-teenager-loses-four-stone-just-TWENTY-WEEKS-exercising-three-hours-day-eating-just-1-000-calories.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/5146778/Britains-fattest-teenager-loses-12-stone-in-seven-months..html

:bs:

No, Father, please, I won’t speak of it again, I swear it by the Seven. Let me out, please let me out. “My lord, I .

. . my work is here, the books . . .”

“. . . will be here when you return to us.”

Sam put a hand to his throat. He could almost feel the chain there, choking him. “My lord, the Citadel . . . they make you cut up corpses there.” They make you wear a chain about your neck. If it is chains you want, come with me. For three days and three nights Sam had sobbed himself to sleep, manacled hand and foot to a wall. The chain around his throat was so tight it broke the skin, and whenever he rolled the wrong way in his sleep it would cut off his breath. “I cannot wear a chain.”

...

“No. I could read the books, but . . . a m-maester must be a healer and b-b-blood makes me faint.” He held out a shaky hand for Jon to see. “I’m Sam the Scared, not Sam the Slayer.”

“Scared? Of what? The chidings of old men? Sam, you saw the wights come swarming up the Fist, a tide of living dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes. You slew an Other.”

“It was the d-d-d-dragonglass, not me.”

“Be quiet. You lied and schemed and plotted to make me Lord Commander. You will obey me. You’ll go to the Citadel and forge a chain, and if you have to cut up corpses, so be it. At least in Oldtown the corpses won’t object.”

He doesn’t understand. “My lord,” Sam said, “my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he . . . the life of a maester is a life of servitude.”

He was babbling, he knew. “No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords.” If it is chains you want, come with me.

Randyll Tarly chained his son to the wall because the said son correctly assessed the best use of his skills but, alas, it was somehow below mighty House Tarly.

Also, note that Sam speaks of cutting up dead bodies and blood and what not, but his issue is the one he doesn't say aloud - the chain. Because I find it hard to believe that the boy Sam hadn't known that maesters have to deal with blood and dead bodies.