How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

:agree: would have seemed the safest place for him

Let's pretend the books do not exist, shall we?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

You doubt.

The second is outrightly false, as we know first-hand and real-time the treatment he got at the wall and that it was only Jon's intervention that got him a better treatment.

It is pretty obvious that you ignore the text when you like and fill in gaps as you like in order to fit your prefered view.

Jon helped him but without Jon they would have found a better role for him eventually

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Jon helped him but without Jon they would have found a better role for him eventually

Text? Support? Anything at all?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Text? Support? Anything at all?

The fact the NW don`t have enough men to waste

[Julia H.]

You have ignored the rest of that paragraph.

"Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books."

Of course he ignored him, most Lords do as they are too bus ruling their lands and raising their successors. Mothers, Maesters, and the staff generally have more involvement with the children of Lords than their actual fathers do. Most noble sons are sent off to paege or squire, their fathers have little to do with them at the age you are talking about. It was only through Sam's perceived weaknesses (by Westerosi standards) that he was still at Horn Hill and not the Arbor.

Do you really think Sam is the only noble boy to have been whipped or caned in Westeros? I know it is rightly offensive in this day and age but 50 years ago it wasnt and it certainly was not in the medieval ages. The fact is Sam would not have been the only noble to have suffered that.

I'm not sure why you are getting offended at him wearing his mothers clothes. It is an exercise designed to make him stand up for himself. If he cant do that then how do you expect him to lead or protect his people?

Randyl tried to train his son to become a decent successor to him as in the medieval ages he could die at any time and Sam would have been expected to lead.

I didn't ignore the rest of the paragraph: I had already pointed out in one of my earlier posts that the only positive experience Sam had with regard to his father was that he was left alone for a few years. That is the best parent experience of an abused child.

Lords may be busy, but still: Ned had time for all his sons. The fact remains that Samwell does not seem to have a single positive memory of his father. Being ignored was the best he got.

No, I don't think Sam is the only noble boy who got beaten. (I have already mentioned that, too.) But Sam does not seem to remember anything else but abuse and humiliation for things he could not help. Proportions matter, the whole context matters.

Wearing his mother's clothes and being paraded around - deep humiliation for a young boy. That's my problem. Abuse and humiliation, loss of dignity will not make anyone a better person. ASOIAF humans have quite human feelings, a loving father would see when his son suffers. If Randyll did all that out of love (which I doubt), he never let Sam know it.

You know what ? Same here.

But you and I live in a very technology and sociology advanced civilization compared to Westeros.

Making the effort to "nurture" was simply wasted effort there most of the time.

But we see it happen in the ASOIAF world: Just think of Maester Aemon.

Let me tell you a true medieval story:

The king (a great, powerful warrior king) had two nephews. One of them was a warrior type, the other one was a "weirdo", a bookish boy, no good at fighting. It was assumed that the warrior would inherit the crown, while the other one might become a priest over time. The bookish royal prince was allowed to become one of the most learned men of his time. Then, as the years passed, the king realized something: the bookish boy was better king material than his brother - because of his intelligence, because of his nature. The king changed his will. The "bookish" prince became an absolutely competent king, who ruled for many years.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

No one should have to. Otherwise, there is no looking at anything in these books critically. There is no accountability on atrocious deeds because inevitably some idiot will say things like "well that's the way things are. women are raped and innocents die. it's Westeros, bruh." That is not analysis. That is a cop out. Read here if you want more on that. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/82379-discussing-morality-in-asoiaf/

Of course we should have to.

There's the real world, where people's opinions and actions can actually make a difference, then there's the fantasy world, where whiny whiners can't stop whining about a world that doesn't exist, yet they cannot stop reading about it...

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Do you really think Sam is the only noble boy to have been whipped or caned in Westeros?

Yep, looks like they do indeed.

[Julia H.]

:agree: would have seemed the safest place for him

Why would the Wall seem a safer place than the Citadel in Oldtown?

As much as Randyll knew of military folks (and he may have heard a few things of common criminals ending up in the NW as well), he must have been pretty sure that Sam would likely be a target in the NW, which he indeed was until Jon put an end to it.

Randyll also knew that Sam was physically not fit for military service. Even stewards had to fight when it came to battle.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

But we see it happen in the ASOIAF world: Just think of Maester Aemon.

Let me tell you a true medieval story:

The king (a great, powerful warrior king) had two nephews. One of them was a warrior type, the other one was a "weirdo", a bookish boy, no good at fighting. It was assumed that the warrior would inherit the crown, while the other one might become a priest over time. The bookish royal prince was allowed to become one of the most learned men of his time. Then, as the years passed, the king realized something: the bookish boy was better king material than his brother - because of his intelligence, because of his nature. The king changed his will. The "bookish" prince became an absolutely competent king, who ruled for many years.

I have no problem with bookish princes, Julia.

Makes sense, since I myself am bookish.

But the sight of blood does not bother me. And I don't cry when a chicken is slaughtered.

In fact, I've slaughtered a chicken or two.

Please tell me that you understand the difference.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I dont hate sam but tbh i get why randyll did what he did sam would have been terrible as a lord no doubt randyll didnt help but he tried at the start at least before the arbor thing and sam looking like a horrible heir then randyll did abuse him but i kind of get it in a fucked up way and To the people saying send sam to the citadel Sam can't see a chicken die without crying and you need to cut up dead bodies when did the fear of blood start was it before the bath of blood or after?

[Eden-Mackenzie]

Randyll didn't let Sam go to Oldtown because he considered it to be an insult to have a son become a Maester; after Sam left for the Watch, Randyll told everyone he had died. Having a father who would rather you die than be who you are does a number on your psyche.

Randyll is the medieval equivalent of the epitome of a sports dad - Randyll is a battle commander who doesn't get the credit he thinks he deserves (looking at you Mace), so instead, is son will be The Greatest of All Time. But his son hates battle, has zero interest in becoming an all-star commander, but rather than accept the son he has he bullies and abuses him, and then exiles him. If you don't think Randyll's treatment of Sam (including the treatment he endured at the hands of people his father hired), get off this website and go do some research. Emotional abuse is far and away more damaging than physical abuse, and is infinitely more difficult to treat and overcome.

Speaking of Mace, he may be an oaf, he may take credit for his underlings' actions, yet his heir is a paraplegic who will never be a military leader, and rather than do away with Willas, he leaves him in charge of Highgarden while he is campaigning to make his daughter Queen of anything. To say an heir must be a military leader beyond compare in order to be successful is asinine. A Reach led by Willas and advised by Sam could be an important ally and formidable opponent.

Is Sam my favorite character? No. Does Sam irritate me? At times, yes, very much so. But does Sam have a backstory we are meant to empathize with, is he a character the author wants us to want to succeed? Yes, absolutely so. Sam has grown under the tutelage of Maester Aemon, Jon, and Dolorous Edd, showing his father was wrong to write him off and completely mishandled him. His handling of the election shows he has a shrewd mind, his rescue of Gilly and her baby shows he is caring, and he has the courage to admit he is afraid. Again, he is not my favorite character, he is not even remotely near to the top of the list, but he not without redeeming qualities, and he is not deserving of the level of vitriol being thrown his way.

[Daendrew]

If you think he is a craven then one of three things happened,

1) GRRM's literary slight of hand succeeded.

2) You forgot Syrio's line: "my words lied, but my [dragonglass] arm told the truth."

3) You aren't paying enough attention.

All this craven stuff is smoke and mirrors so we will be surprised when Samwell The Brave is shown to be the paramount hero of the story.

I will show you how soon, hopefully this week, when I have a big post I am finishing up. It will probably be turn it into multiple individual parts instead of one long post.

Sam is the closest stand-in for GRRM himself of any character, even Tyrion. It also explodes the Samwise Gamgee cliche of the sidekick standing by selflessly supporting the chosen one in his mission and not being his own hero. Samwell's best friend Jon is going to become the Night's Devil, and Sam will be (one of) the Light's Champion(s) in ways that will surprise most.

The trusty sidekick will now become the hero in his own right. He is a hero that is different from all other fantasy series and this is a very different fantasy series.

Swords aren't enough. You need a knight of the mind.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If you think he is a craven then one of three things happened,

People think he is a craven because, for the vast part, he has been one. His family, other Reach nobility, his brothers in the Watch and Sam himself would all confirm this.

That is not to say that he does not have some hidden reserves and may be capable of something awe inspiring in the future. But by and large he has been shown to be lacking in backbone and unwilling to stand up for himself. This is what Randyll reacted to as it's not just Sam's safety and future but the safety and future of all Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill.

The trusty sidekick will now become the hero in his own right. He is a hero that is different from all other fantasy series and this is a very different fantasy series.

Anything is possible. I doubt that would have happened had he sat on his arse listening to music and eating cake back at Horn Hill though.

[White Ravens]

This thread got linked to the ASOIAF subreddit and the top comment is:

" God, it sounds like Alliser Thorne wrote this."

:lol:

:agree: :rofl:

This is one of those "Really?!" threads. And surprise, surprise - at least one of the people defending Randyll Tarly in this thread has also defended Walder Frey and Janos Slynt in others. Stay tuned for the "Vargo Hoat Was a Noble and Misunderstood Mercenary" thread.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

This thread is still going? Why hasn't it been shut down yet?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

The fact the NW don`t have enough men to waste

Oh, I see. Nothing at all, it is.

[Ser Belwas The Strong]

What would you think if your son is 30 years old living in your basement, without a job, eating cakes and browsing the webs all day? would it piss you off his lazyness? the fact that he does not care about his responsabilities as a citizen? the lack of self improvement drive?

Imagine that you run a family business and try to get your only son to run it, so he will have a future and he prefers to sit on his ass in front of the computer instead.

So much empathy for poor Sam the lazy coward, none for Randyl Tarly.

[HexMachina]

Yep, looks like they do indeed.

Yes, because all Randyll did was whipped/caned Sam :rolleyes:

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, because all Randyll did was whipped/caned Sam :rolleyes:

You chose to highlight it as if Sam was one of the unfortunates in Westeros. Whipping and caning, sadly, would have been common. All these young men were being trained to be warriors, a few bruises were to be expected.

The fact is 99% of the population of Westeros would have switched places with him in a second as his childhood was pampered in comparison.

[apovsic]

your son is 30 years old living in your basement, without a job, eating cakes and browsing the webs all day

Let's be honest, if we weren't in Sam Tarly thread I wouldn't have a clue of which person do you talk about, so not really a good comparison. Well to be honest, it's really bad comparison.