How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[HexMachina]

But Tyrion had a abusive father and a troubled upbringing! It was his fathers fault!

Yes, because being afraid and being a rapist are totally comparable.

[HexMachina]

Reason's to like Sam

1. Good food taster.

2. Gut him like a ton ton and crawl inside in case of a blizzard.

3, Ample food supply if it comes to eating people.

4. You look much better standing next to him.

5. Provides good cover from arrows.

6. You dont need to out run the white walkers, just him.

7. Excellent seat warmer and bed flattener.

8. Ballast..

9. Good messenger...in case you need to know if they kill messengers

10. about the only pen pal you could have on the wall.

Oh I get it, it's funny because he's fat, right? Ha. Ha. Ha. No.

[Ser Lepus]

"My son embarassed me by not being a fighter. Better soak him in blood."

I actually don't have a problem with Randyll wanting a different heir. That shouldn't really be a problem when we know that Samwell would have been content going to Oldtown. It's the actions Randyll took to try and torture Sam into something he wasn't that I have a problem with. People like to say Randyll had no options, but he did. He chose to torture his son and threaten him with murder if he didn't go to the NW.

It would have been so easy to allow him to study and the Citadel and to become a Maester...

[SweetPea]

Yes, because being afraid and being a rapist are totally comparable.

Why not? You're saying Sam turned out the way he is because of his abusive father.

I will say the same is true for Tyrion. He is only a rapist because his father had his childhood lover gangraped by his men in front of him, then forced him to rape her last. Prove me wrong.

[Boarsbane]

Why not? You're saying Sam turned out the way he is because of his abusive father.

I will say the same is true for Tyrion. He is only a rapist because his father had his childhood lover gangraped by his men in front of him, then forced him to rape her last. Prove me wrong.

Did Tywin give him an erection and hold him down on top of her? Tywin ordered it but at the end of the day it was Tyrion's choice

[SweetPea]

Did Tywin give him an erection and hold him down on top of her? Tywin ordered it but at the end of the day it was Tyrion's choice

Not really. You can't control when to get an erection. Tyrion clearly didnt want to rape her, I think he even mentions how his body betrayed him. But that's beside the point. Even if he didn't rape her at the end, the fact that he just saw a hundred soldiers have their way with her, could have cause enough of a mental trauma for Tyrion to be the way he is today.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Did Tywin give him an erection and hold him down on top of her? Tywin ordered it but at the end of the day it was Tyrion's choice

Tyrion was told she was a prostitute and went with it. Did not bother to ask her if she reallly was a prostitute and did not pick up that anything was wrong as the guards took their turn. No one forced him to do anything, he was a rebellious child. If he didnt want to take his turn he would not have done.

It is such a bizarre situation. How on earth did Tyrion not realize that she was being raped against her will or if she supposedly 'loved' Tyrion why did she not tell him that she was there against her will.

Poor Tysha, she was probably about to be raped when she ran into Jaime and Tyrion. I doubt she had any option but to say yes to Tyrion when he tried to sleep with her and asked her to marry him as the smallfolk are not taught how to say no to the nobles. Especially the Overlords of the realm who are Kings in all but name.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Not really. You can't control when to get an erection. Tyrion clearly didnt want to rape her, I think he even mentions how his body betrayed him. But that's beside the point. Even if he didn't rape her at the end, the fact that he just saw a hundred soldiers have their way with her, could have cause enough of a mental trauma for Tyrion to be the way he is today.

So Tyrion is rebellious enough to marry someone without his fathers permission but not when his father (or stewad I'm not even sure Tywin was present) tells him to have sex.

Tyrion had sex with her on his own volition.

[apovsic]

she was being raped against her will

I know it's bad wording, but can you be willingly raped?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Sorry but the text clearly states otherwise. Sam freezes out of terror. He can't act while Small Paul faces the Other. Then we have his thought process on page. When does he finally act? Only after remembering Jon.

His father had not abused him for years according to Sam himself. In his own words:

Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

And yet he was still a coward with no backbone after that.

[maniacmcgoo]

Sam is in my opinion another great example of the complex characters placed throughout the GoT universe. His harsh upbringing in an attempt to force him to become a suitable heir to Horn Hill failed miserably much like with children who shut down when someone raises their voice to them. It's a mechanism that is ingrained into who they are. Simply put Sam would be a horrid lord of Horn Hill because of the role that his family has in protecting the Reach. He however could have been a good lord somewhere else but unfortunately he was born to the wrong family. His father in his desperation resorted to some horrendous acts and more importantly out of pride refused to allow his son to become a maester.

Luckily for the NW Sam was sent to the wall. He is now becoming a Maester and more likely than not play a large role in helping defend the realms of men.

Yes, he is cowardly, fat and clumsy. Not traits that make you suitable for riding in a tournament or calling your banners.

He is however, smart, well read and capable of doing research. Values that are sorely lacking at the Wall. It takes many different kinds of people to make the world go round and the watch desperately needs a smart man who understands the value of history and research if it is to defeat the others just as it desperately needs men to wield a sword and fight.

[Lord Freypie]

Tyrion was 13 years old and a dwarf.

"Nobody forced him", when he was surrounded by Tywin and guards is hardly an arguement.

There was one rapist in Tysha story, Tywin, the rest were his tools or victims.

That adult Tyrion did awful things by himself is another topic.

I know it's bad wording, but can you be willingly raped?

show!Sansa according to inside the episode ?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I know it's bad wording, but can you be willingly raped?

Sadly, yes.

Think of the prostitutes in Westeros, like Jeyne Poole, who have been made to do what they do with the threat of violence from a pimp. To the customer (like Tyrion) they would seem willing participants.

Tyrion thought Tysha was a willing participant. Considering that he 'loved' her and she him you think he would know the difference. I certainly would if my partner was.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tyrion was 13 years old and a dwarf.

"Nobody forced him", when he was surrounded by Tywin and guards is hardly an arguement.

There was one rapist in Tysha story, Tywin, the rest were his tools or victims.

Pretty sure Tywin was not even there. It was his steward who paid Tysha.

[apovsic]

Think of the prostitutes in Westeros, like Jeyne Poole, who have been made to do what they do with the threat of violence from a pimp. To the customer (like Tyrion) they would seem willing participants.

I see your point, but still they are forced to do it, so it's not really willingly as I see it. Anyway I really don't want to get to deep into it, definition of rape is not really something that I would like to argue of.

[obiwan_shenobi]

Hi guys.

I am currently re-reading the books and am in the middle of SoS and have had to create this post out of frustration at re-reading Sam's POV chapters. Unlike every single character so far I can find absolutely nothing redeeming about the guy and so am both venting my frustration, but also genuinely curious how this character can be liked at all?

I know this topic has probably been raised many times before over the years but nevertheless I just wanted to raise a few things:

1. Sam Tarly The Failure - Sam seems to get an awful lot of sympathy because of the abuse he has taken from his father. But is it completely one sided? My reading of it is that it isn't like Tywin and Tyrion's relationship for example where the father completely overlooks his son's talents because of blind thinly-veiled distain for his very existence, but it's actually a complete failure on Sam's part to try and live up to any sort of standards of behaviour expected of the Lord of a House.

People seem to get the wrong end of the stick IMO. They blame Randyll for abusing Sam and psychologically 'breaking him' so he now believes he is a craven as a fibre of his very being, but, at least to my reading this is simply the wrong way round. Sam was like that before he was abused by his father as is evident by the sheer amount of failure his father endured trying to make him into a proper heir. Clearly even as a small boy Sam displayed the traits even those who profess to admire him often find frustrating, that is, his woe-is-me, I can't do anything, I don't won't to try crybaby attitude.

Also, and at least this has been pointed out, letting Sam be his heir would have been the worse course of action for Randyll, as again, all we have to do is look at House Lannister to see the effect even one poor ruler can have on a House. Tytos arguably nearly ruined House Lannister, and if not for Tywin taking the lead even before his father past the House would have arguably been overthrown or at the very least ruined for generations. Can you imagine what would have happened if Sam was Lord of Horn Hill?

Now you could argue Sam would be a kind and gentle ruler to his people, but those are in fact some of the worst traits someone in that social structure can have as they allow rebellion and discord within their realms as they are seen as pushovers both internally and externally and so inadvertantly risk the lives of and hurt the people they are charged to protect,

Finally, it is often said Sam could have simply been made a maester to remove him from succession and actually make him useful (although the Night's Watch is useful as the series proves) but Sam complains about this very thing when Jon brings it up. So nothing it seems will make him happy.

2. Sam The Privileged - Sam has a background that 99.9% of his Night Watch brothers could barely even imagine, they are a group of criminals and low class nobodies exiled to the end of the earth. But Sam, despite his own exile, carries with him an inherent sense of privilege that often occures with those in the upper echelons of society. That is the subtext of him and Jon both becoming friends. It isn't the lovable loser and the hero in waiting becoming firm friends, it is the two boys of privilege grouping together, and then bending others to their will, as befits their class. Even at the wall it seems class matters.

A really deep reading will probably provide alot more instances, but lets examine a couple of examples of his upperclass background having an unfair impact on events.

There is the fact he gets Chett removed as aid to the Maester and moved to the kennels as a result of both Jon's suggestion and because of Sam's soft privileged background making him 'better' at that job. How is that fair? That is clearly two rich boys sticking it to Chett and doing him an unjustified wrong turn. What, does the world revolve around Sam's needs? Why can't Sam learn to be useful in other ways, why can't Chett be given an oppurtunity to learn to advance himself in the world? Of course this is muted by Chett being presented as a nasty person, but he is nasty in part because of responding to slights and unfairness. I am not justifying his actions and emotions by any means, but it isn't random or without cause.

Next their is the downright criminal death of Small Paul who Sam get's killed by a Wight Walker. He is so out of shape, he is so unwilling to do right by his brothers that he simply falls on the ground and refuses to go further. Paul is then forced to carry Sam who is no small man, even though Paul has had just as much a difficult time as everyone else, if not moreso as he probably actively tried to fight during the Battle, whereas Sam sat in a tent and wrote some notes. You could argue they could have left Sam, but that just shows you how selfless both those characters are. Could you imagine Sam going back for someone on that march? He even complains and cries when (Grenn I think) tries to get him up and like a spoiled child says that means they are not friends as thats not what friends do, when he is trying to save his life! This allows Paul and Grenn to be caught by a Walker. And to add insult to injury Paul's death leads to an opening for Sam to luckily kill the Walker thanks to Obsidian, but SAM gets all the credit even though it was Paul who caused the whole scenario to unfold. otherwise Sam would have simply died in the snow or been killed by a passing Walker.

Finally we have Sam enforcing his privileged social attitudes on the entire Night's Watch via his rigging of the election in favour of his friend and fellow son of a Noble Jon Snow (even a bastard is better than a commoner). Sam even goes so far as to then complain when his friend is tough on him by sending him away, so clearly he thought it would be useful to have his friend in power, and that it would make his life cushier still. I am a little vague on the exact details and intricacies of this part as I am only at SoS on my re-read, but the general point still stands. It is another example of how Sam oozes privilege even if it is unintended, he can't help but act his class instincts.

What underlines all these problems I have mentioned is that those Sam comes into conflict with and wrongs, Chett, Small Paul, Allister, Slynt and others who are marginalised voices due to their poor backgrounds, roughness as characters and in some cases relatively 'evil' deeds. So as a result his own actions are overlooked.

3. Buuuuttttt, I, I, I, I'm sssscccccarrrred - I just wanted to conclude with a final non-character point, IMO Sam is the most tiring POV character to read in the whole series, as being inside his head means we have to endure every other line be that 'I am a craven', 'I can't', 'I don't want to', 'please no', 'why me?' crybaby bull crap that is an absolute pain to read. There really isn't much I can say as it's a personal preference, but I do hope others feel the same way, that the style in which is chapters are written is a pain, and worse still, even as he advances as a character, this doesn't seem to dissipate but just goes on and on and on.

As I said at the start, I know I am not inventing the wheel with this discussion, and I am sure there have been threads long before this one complaining about or even just discussing Samwell Tarly. But I do hope that maybe some of my thoughts, if not necessarily completely original, are at least a positive contribution to discussing a 'main' character.

Also, third point aside (which was a little vent of frustration) I do home some of my points raise something interesting that GRRM presents throughout the series, both overtly and covertly, that class and privilege matter and that even in characters were it maybe isn't so obvious like Jon and Sam, it is still very much there.

So does anyone else really dislike Sam and his chapters the way that I do? If so why? And if you like him, which is fine, how do you defend him rather than by simply saying 'oh he's the lovable big nerd with a good heart' or 'he killed a walker once, goooooo Sam!' which you sometime read when discussing him.

Sam is intelligent, kind, compassionate and can be quite witty. He's also capable of bravery - when he's dumped in the deep end.

Yes he has serious flaws - his physical weakness and the trouble it causes his brothers, (RIP Small Paul), his lack of self confidence etc. However, having studied psychiatry and seen a fair amount of victims of physical abuse, Sam's story has always struck me as disturbingly accurate with regards to the psychological impact of neglect and abuse.

Sam has never been physically strong, coordinated or of a tough nature. He's naturally gentle and loving and yes, a bit silly and immature. But rather than accepting the fact that his son is different, and that whilst he may not have the qualities he hoped for he has many other redeeming values and is simply a child, his father chose to physically and mentally abuse the child. The irony is that if he'd nurtured and cared for his son instead of torturing him, Sam would probably be considerably less psychologically damaged and as such considerably more competent.

However one of the things I've enjoyed the most has been watching him slowly overcome these scars, despite many tiresome self doubts. For someone to overcome such crippling fear is inspirational.Fear is relative - for someone like Jon Snow, brought up by a Lord and taught to fight, nurtured (well more so than Sam), well fed and relatively well loved and cared for, bravery comes a lot easier.

The treatment we receive as children literally shapes the neurochemical make up of our brains, all of which differ from person to person. For Sam to constantly have to overcome this must be a massive struggle, and it's as warming to watch every small triumph of his as it is to watch a sufferer of depression find happiness, a sufferer of social anxiety regain their confidence or someone with ADHDsuch as myself find ways to concentrate and apply themselves.

So for me,Samwell Tarly is an inspiration.

[Orphalesion]

Hmmm, let's see "How can people like Sam Tarly?" asks the OP. Well, dear OP, that is very easy, by having a different opinion from you, it's said to be very common among humans,

Anyway, if we fault Sam for not living up to the expectations of his society, then we would have to fault characters like Arya as well who don't live up to the expectations their society has on them either.

If "do your own thing, no matter what others say" is acceptable for one character, then it is for all the others as well.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

Sam is intelligent, kind, compassionate and can be quite witty. He's also capable of bravery - when he's dumped in the deep end.

Yes he has serious flaws - his physical weakness and the trouble it causes his brothers, (RIP Small Paul), his lack of self confidence etc. However, having studied psychiatry and seen a fair amount of victims of physical abuse, Sam's story has always struck me as disturbingly accurate with regards to the psychological impact of neglect and abuse.

Sam has never been physically strong, coordinated or of a tough nature. He's naturally gentle and loving and yes, a bit silly and immature. But rather than accepting the fact that his son is different, and that whilst he may not have the qualities he hoped for he has many other redeeming values and is simply a child, his father chose to physically and mentally abuse the child. The irony is that if he'd nurtured and cared for his son instead of torturing him, Sam would probably be considerably less psychologically damaged and as such considerably more competent.

However one of the things I've enjoyed the most has been watching him slowly overcome these scars, despite many tiresome self doubts. For someone to overcome such crippling fear is inspirational.Fear is relative - for someone like Jon Snow, brought up by a Lord and taught to fight, nurtured (well more so than Sam), well fed and relatively well loved and cared for, bravery comes a lot easier.

The treatment we receive as children literally shapes the neurochemical make up of our brains, all of which differ from person to person. For Sam to constantly have to overcome this must be a massive struggle, and it's as warming to watch every small triumph of his as it is to watch a sufferer of depression find happiness, a sufferer of social anxiety regain their confidence or someone with ADHDsuch as myself find ways to concentrate and apply themselves.

So for me,Samwell Tarly is an inspiration.

This is very good, the Sam we leave at the end of ADWD is not the same as the one we are introduced to at the start of GOT. The old Sam would not be shooting arrows at pirates, hell he would not even be on the ship. Yes he bitches about it, but he does it.

[Hippo]

^^ no i don't care about characters living up to expectations, I respect brave characters like Arya, Tyrion, Jon for example

Sam I respect the least for his 'cant' and 'wont' attitude

[Lady Blackmont]

Everyone loves Tyrion.

I think I will have to give up on him, just so I'm not another conformist.