How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[Jeeves]

Samwell Tarly is cool. He's my favorite character. We're both big guys.

Sam got Jon elected at the wall. Sam stopped Jon from deserting.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Craster wins the bad parent contest. It's interesting that Sam and Gilly ended up as a team given their shared "crap daddy" histories.

Anyway, regardless of whether Randall Tarly was the worst dad or bottom 10%, I really can't understand OP's inability to feel any sort of sympathy for this innocuous, good natured, guy who was thrown into an icy penal colony.

I can understand that.

I fall somewhat in the middle of the debate here.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

"Not all that bad" is pretty subjective. It sounds horrible to me, even in the context of a medieval world. After all, in what other context do we see people chained to a wall? Jaime in the Riverrun cell, chained up as a dangerous enemy and valuable prisoner, comes to mind. Oh, yes, there are other horrible parents in ASOIAF besides Lord Tarly (Tywin, Craster, Cersei etc.), though perhaps not so many who torture their children or threaten to kill them. They tend to be horrible in different ways, IMO. As it happens, these parents all fail in their parental roles. Randyll Tarly is one of them. Everyone can decide which of them they consider the worst.

Subjective ? Certainly !

There are some people today who think that spanking a child is just fine while others consider it horrid child abuse. Subjectivity.

Regardless, I don't see how anyone can put Randyll in the same class as Craster and Tywin.

How long did dad keep Sam chained up ? Wasn't months, like Jaime.

I have a vague recollection of Robb and Jon being whacked with sticks when they misbehaved as kids, but I'm not certain about that. Anyone else recall that ?

[Julia H.]

Subjective ? Certainly !

There are some people today who think that spanking a child is just fine while others consider it horrid child abuse. Subjectivity.

1. Regardless, I don't see how anyone can put Randyll in the same class as Craster and Tywin.

2. How long did dad keep Sam chained up ? Wasn't months, like Jaime.

3. I have a vague recollection of Robb and Jon being whacked with sticks when they misbehaved as kids, but I'm not certain about that. Anyone else recall that ?

1. I think they are all members of the bad parent club. Craster is arguably the worst. He sacrificed all his baby sons and raped all his grown-up daughters. It would be difficult to beat that. Granted, Randyll Tarly apparently abused only one of his sons and let him grow up before he threatened to kill him like a pig. Still, the fact that there is a parent like Craster in the ASOIAF world (who seems barely human), does not make Tarly a good parent in my eyes. Tywin was bad in a different way. Did he physically torture Tyrion? I can't recall. If he did, then he was the same as Randyll. If he didn't, well, emotional abuse is also very destructive, and different people would give different answers regarding which is worse. I, personally, think the kind of physical abuse Randyll subjected Sam to necessarily involved emotional abuse as well. Of course, Tywin becomes an even worse parent over the years, until he is ready to (perhaps) have his son executed. I also think that Tywin failed his other two children as well. But that still does not make Randyll Tarly a "normal" parent.

A medieval world? Protecting one's offspring is imperative in this world. Why is it assumed that taking hostages from defeated families will ensure peace? It is because parents are supposed to place their children's life and well-being before their ambitions, before everything else. The majority of ASOIAF parents are not like Tarly or Tywin or Craster.

2. But Sam was a kid at the time, the man's own kid, not a hostile, grown-up warrior like Jaime, and he had committed no crime. How is a kid's psyche affected by spending even one night chained up? And being chained up by his own father, too...

3. I don't recall it, but I can imagine that some sort of corporal punishment was part of the standard way of bringing up children. But it is not at all the same how severe that punishment is, why it happens and what the general context is. The Stark children have many happy memories of their childhood. Sam has only very bad memories, with the exception of those years when his father left him alone (because he focused his attention on Dickon). But notice that Sam's most positive memory of his father is a memory of being left alone. This is typical of an abused child. The Stark boys, by contrast, have many positive memories of their father. If there was punishment, it did not destroy their personalities, and their relationship with their father gave them lots of positive memories, and those are the defining memories for them. In the case of Sam, the relationship produced only very negative memories or memories of being left alone.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

This thread got linked to the ASOIAF subreddit and the top comment is:

" God, it sounds like Alliser Thorne wrote this."

:lol:

[DMC]

1. I think they are all members of the bad parent club. Craster is arguably the worst.

This is just a fun nitpick but ARGUABLY? Really??

[apovsic]

This is just a fun nitpick but ARGUABLY? Really??

Well he don't beat his sons :leer:

[William_Tell]

The thing that I think some do not get here is that Sam wasn't abused because of his weakness. Rather, his weakness is a result of abuse. There's no going around about that.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

This is just a fun nitpick but ARGUABLY? Really??

As a matter of fact, to state that someone is the worst [anything] is like "the most beautiful woman in the world" title. You can't say that with any degree of certainty unless you have met everyone else in the area of comparaison.

(That was my turn in nitpicking :) )

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Craster is arguably the worst.

Arguably, eh ? I'd like to hear the argument against that...

Tywin was bad in a different way. Did he physically torture Tyrion? I can't recall. If he did, then he was the same as Randyll. If he didn't, well, emotional abuse is also very destructive, and different people would give different answers regarding which is worse

Tywin ordered dozens of his men to rape Tyrion's 14 year old wife. Then made Tyrion do the same. And had Jaime lie about her origin.

About 100 times worse than anything Randyll ever did to Sam, in my humble albeit subjective opinion.

A medieval world? Protecting one's offspring is imperative in this world. Why is it assumed that taking hostages from defeated families will ensure peace? It is because parents are supposed to place their children's life and well-being before their ambitions, before everything else. The majority of ASOIAF parents are not like Tarly or Tywin or Craster.

Unless you're a noble and still virile male, in which case you are capable of making more offspring that are worthy of your inheritance:

***cough*** Dickon Tarly ***cough***

***cough R+L=J ***cough***

2. But Sam was a kid at the time, the man's own kid, not a hostile, grown-up warrior like Jaime, and he had committed no crime. How is a kid's psyche affected by spending even one night chained up?

What would your suggested course of action be for Sam's dad, given the reality of Westeros as we know it ?

Perhaps sit him down and share their innermost feelings and fears ?

[Julia H.]

People can argue about anything.

Enjoyed the nitpicking. ^_^

[James of the Blackwater]

I don't really like Sam, but I don't hate him, he is what he is.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

The thing that I think some do not get here is that Sam wasn't abused because of his weakness. Rather, his weakness is a result of abuse. There's no going around about that.

I think you need to do some more research into this.

Start by reading this thread from the beginning.

If Sam had not been weak, he would have never been abused.

The abuse only cemented his weakness, but it didn't create it.

[William_Tell]

I think you need to do some more research into this.

Start by reading this thread from the beginning.

If Sam had not been weak, he would have never been abused.

The abuse only cemented his weakness, but it didn't create it.

Nope. I did think this through. Sam's fear is almost pathological. One cannot explain it as a mere trait of his personality. It clearly wouldn't exist without the abuse.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Nope. I did think this through. Sam's fear is almost pathological. One cannot explain it as a mere trait of his personality. It clearly wouldn't exist without the abuse.

I disagree.

Sam, the heir to Horn Hill, never took to his responsibilities. Never put forth any effort to learn how to fight, rule, etc.

His father's initial efforts at molding him into a proper lord's heir were relatively gentle and benign.

They didn't work.

Without judgement, Sam was a born wuss.

Sometimes, born wusses can be made into proper leaders.

In this case, dad's tactics simply made him into even more of a wuss.

[William_Tell]

I disagree.

Sam, the heir to Horn Hill, never took to his responsibilities. Never put forth any effort to learn how to fight, rule, etc.

His father's initial efforts at molding him into a proper lord's heir were relatively gentle and benign.

They didn't work.

Without judgement, Sam was a born wuss.

Sometimes, born wusses can be made into proper leaders.

In this case, dad's tactics simply made him into even more of a wuss.

Sincerely I don't recall Randyll being benign. He may well have been horrible to his son since day one, given the results.

Sorry but every argument in favor of Randyll "tactics", as you call them, seems too much close victim blaming to me.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Lord Randyll, who was regarded as one of the finest military commanders in the Seven Kingdoms, did everything in his power to raise his son into what he deemed a proper heir, but Samwell frustrated him at every opportunity, resisting every effort made to change his nature. He was sent to the Arbor as a page, but the Redwyne twins bullied him and Lord Paxter sent him back to Horn Hill. A dozen masters-at-arms failed to toughen him. Attempts such as dressing him in his mother's clothes, forcing him to sleep in chainmail, and even being bathed in aurochs blood by Qartheenwarlocks failed to raise his valor. He wept even to see a chicken slaughtered. taken from awoiaf

Considering the type of world ASOIAF is set inThis doesnt sound like a bad father, just one trying to toughen up a weak child who would be unfit to carry the family name on. Randyll tries and tries and tries to make Sam fit for his environment, a bad father would have give up long before

Above is my opinion of Randyll. As for Sam, after his explois in the Nights Watch i believe daddy will be proud, though happy Samhas vows preventing him from being lord of Horn Hill. To hate Sam is to hate every accidental hero or underdog

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

What is with this fandom? People always hate the best characters, and love and stan for the very worst.

Is this an ASOIAF thing, or just the age of the antihero? I don't get it... :dunno:

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Sincerely I don't recall Randyll being benign. He may weel have been horrible to his son since day one, given the results.

Sorry but every argument in favor of Randyll "tactics" as you call them seems too much close victim blaming to me.

That's because you are only looking at the end result and not delving into the specifics.

Sam was a victim, yep.

But he's not a blameless victim.

Please tell me that you don't think that all victims are inherently blameless...

[William_Tell]

That's because you are only looking at the end result and not delving into the specifics.

Sam was a victim, yep.

But he's not a blameless victim.

Please tell me that you don't think that all victims are inherently blameless...

A son abused by his father is inherently blameless. If you disagree we should really stop arguing as I don't see how in the world I could my point.