How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

At first i thought this tread was troll. But having read it just... wow.

When Randyll sees that Sam wont fight, instead of cultivating his other abilities he breaks him down. Removing any and all selfconfidense and makes sure that Sam will stay coward for a very long time. I have no doubt that if Randyll simply would have changed strategy, cultivated Sams interest in knowledge and tried to get him more interested in strategy and politics that way, that he would have had any problem at all. Sams craven nature could have with much encouragement and practice been more lessened both by Sam himself and his friends and family.

But thats precisely the problem. Sam as I have understood it had no friends to encourage him, no father or rolemodel to look up to. Instead he got humiliated by his peers and terrorised by his father. To claim that anything of that was Sam's fault is the very definition of victim blaming.

Even ignoring that to make Sam choose beetwen the wall and "an accident" totally ignoring Sams wish to go to the Citadel is far far past abuse.

[Mythrel]

Sam is one of the only truly courageous characters in the series. Remember what we learned from Ol' dead Ned. You can't be brave until your'e scared first.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It amazes me how many people claim Sam was unfit to be lord of Horn Hill just because he wasn't a warrior, when we've seen quite successful lords like Mace (and Willas) Tyrell, Wyman Manderly and Doran Martell, who are not warriors. A lord doesn't have to fight, he has to command.

This is precisely why I hate the Sam arguments as the SJW's who argue for Sam have not bothered to read the books and are just offended for the sake of it.

Wyman was quite the rider in his youth, something of a champion yet he is now in his 60's and mocked. His personality is nothing like the young Sam's as he stands up for himself and his family.

Doran Martell is weak because he is in his 50's and suffers greatly from gout.In his youth however he served as a squire unlike Sam who was rejected because of his weakness. Doran, while possibly not a great knight(we have no idea) was at least respected by his peers while Sam was mocked by his.

There is no evidence that Mace was not a competent warrior in his youth. The comparison with Sam is laughable and insulting.

What I dislike about this argument is that the SJW's presume that it is all about Sam being fat or being a poor warrior when there are many fat and poor martial lords. Sam is insecure and a coward, Randyll making him his heir would mean he hated his other children and relatives as Sam was an obvious poor choice.

Sure., Sam was capable of beating the odds and becoming a great Lord but he would have been a maverick as few other lords with his characteristics had done so. In these arguments the SJW's only think of Sam and not the thousands of lives that could be sacrificed if he fails. Pretty pathetic.

[Beg Pardon]

For people like Sam, everyday situations are terrifying. He is a fearful guy, and understandably so. I'm sure it was some part nature, and then the rest was nurture (I am extremely loathe to call anything Old Man Tarly ever did nurture, but you know what I mean.) His father tried to make him different, but it just backfired. What he did to his son left a mark. Despite being privileged in the sense that he grew up as a non-smallperson, he was not privileged with a healthy upbringing. What his father did to him was abuse, medieval/Westeros setting or no.

So, you take a guy who's seriously terrified all the time in regular ol' everyday life, and you throw him into some extremely challenging and scary situations, and yeah, he's gonna be scared. However, I think he shows incredible bravery. I also think that he has not fully realized his potential. I hope that Sam can come into his own and grow into the kind of man that he himself can be proud of, instead of just the hyper-masculine carbon copy that his father tried to mold him into.

He has skills and value that even he doesn't realize yet, and he keeps facing his fears and/or honestly trying to do the right thing over and over again. I like Samwell Tarly and find it incredibly easy to relate to him, but that's just me. :dunno: Who HASN'T been absolutely terrified but forced to act anyway? After all, a man can only be brave when he is afraid.

[IfoundDavosfingers]

It's an unfinished coming of age/high fantasy story.

Most seem to forget the coming of age part.

[Julia H.]

Got to love Sam threads. For people that don't know, in previous thread we agreed that Sam is the braves man in Westeros. lol

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had.

It seems GRRM wants us to think about the various meanings of courage.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, the dwarf had told him, grinning. The world was full of cravens who pretended to be heroes; it took a queer sort of courage to admit to cowardice as Samwell Tarly had.

It seems GRRM wants us to think about the various meanings of courage.

Agreed. It is another trope Martin is attempting to break. Just like with the beautiful damsel and the noble knight, the courageous warrior is just another stereotype to be examined. Randyll Tarly has made quite a name for himself as finest battle commanders in Westeros at the moment and with his Valyrian sword, he is the very picture of the fierce warrior. But I would wager that Sam will be the Tarly to save the realm and show that fierceness is not the only form of courage one can possess. And it is certainly not the only trait the lord of a noble house should strive to cultivate.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

I won't completely defend Randyll Tarly, by modern standards he does mistreat Sam, but for a medival setting I'm not sure it's that bad. I defintely don't see him treating Sam the way he does out of some kinda evilness, he is just trying to make Sam more suitable for the job he was born into doing, being a Lord.

Exactly.

I don't know why people keep judging these characters by their own modern sensibilities, yet they keep doing it.

The world that Martin created is harsh. It's dangerous. The weak tend not to survive, and I'm not just talking about physically weak.

The elder Tarly probably won't win any father of the year awards, but what he put Sam through wasn't really all that bad in the context of the setting.

[HexMachina]

Exactly.

I don't know why people keep judging these characters by their own modern sensibilities, yet they keep doing it.

The world that Martin created is harsh. It's dangerous. The weak tend not to survive, and I'm not just talking about physically weak.

The elder Tarly probably won't win any father of the year awards, but what he put Sam through wasn't really all that bad in the context of the setting.

Tell me, how many other parents in ASOIAF do we see or hear of doing things like chaining their child to a wall like an animal?

[HexMachina]

This is precisely why I hate the Sam arguments as the SJW's who argue for Sam have not bothered to read the books and are just offended for the sake of it.

Wyman was quite the rider in his youth, something of a champion yet he is now in his 60's and mocked. His personality is nothing like the young Sam's as he stands up for himself and his family.

Doran Martell is weak because he is in his 50's and suffers greatly from gout.In his youth however he served as a squire unlike Sam who was rejected because of his weakness. Doran, while possibly not a great knight(we have no idea) was at least respected by his peers while Sam was mocked by his.

There is no evidence that Mace was not a competent warrior in his youth. The comparison with Sam is laughable and insulting.

What I dislike about this argument is that the SJW's presume that it is all about Sam being fat or being a poor warrior when there are many fat and poor martial lords. Sam is insecure and a coward, Randyll making him his heir would mean he hated his other children and relatives as Sam was an obvious poor choice.

Sure., Sam was capable of beating the odds and becoming a great Lord but he would have been a maverick as few other lords with his characteristics had done so. In these arguments the SJW's only think of Sam and not the thousands of lives that could be sacrificed if he fails. Pretty pathetic.

Oh noes! Those evil warriors fighting for a concept as contemptible as social justice! Barricade the doors!

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Exactly.

I don't know why people keep judging these characters by their own modern sensibilities, yet they keep doing it.

The world that Martin created is harsh. It's dangerous. The weak tend not to survive, and I'm not just talking about physically weak.

The elder Tarly probably won't win any father of the year awards, but what he put Sam through wasn't really all that bad in the context of the setting.

But that doesn't explain why he wouldn't let Sam go to the Citadel.

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Tell me, how many other parents in ASOIAF do we see or hear of doing things like chaining their child to a wall like an animal?

I'm betting that Tyrion and Craster's kids would have preferred their fathers to be as kind and gentle as Tarly Sr.

This might start a firestorm, but I'd rank Randyll as a better parent than either Lysa or Cersei. :eek:

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Oh noes! Those evil warriors fighting for a concept as contemptible as social justice! Barricade the doors!

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

But that doesn't explain why he wouldn't let Sam go to the Citadel.

Agreed.

Simplest explaination there is that as a lord of a respected house, he probably didn't want his former heir presumptive to end up being bound in service to another house.

Plus, he probably wanted the embarrassing (to him) child as far out of sight as possible.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

Exactly.

I don't know why people keep judging these characters by their own modern sensibilities, yet they keep doing it.

The world that Martin created is harsh. It's dangerous. The weak tend not to survive, and I'm not just talking about physically weak.

The elder Tarly probably won't win any father of the year awards, but what he put Sam through wasn't really all that bad in the context of the setting.

[Guess who's back]

"Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him.

In my opinion that is a pretty flawed or rather incomplete statement. It should be more about acting despite being afraid. Do it despite being scared. Kinda like fake it till you become it. That's bravery instead of falling to ground, crying and shouting "I yield, I yield" in a fucking practice. Look at Waymar Royce vs the Other, he was scared but still fought. There is a reason that it is one of the most badass moments in the series.

And you might say that Sam killed the other. But who cares. It was a silly a scene and was filled with plot armor. If he faced Other again in 1 vs 1 combat, he would cry or just freeze like always because he is in fact a coward.

[Oberyion Martennister]

I like Sam but I agree his chapters can be a bit of a chore to read through

that happens with every character for me though sometimes I don't want the chapters to end other times I can't wait til they're over

[Bloodraven's Bastard]

Ye cause in medieval time threatening your son with murder unless he joins an order filled with criminals is so commonplace.

In Westeros ? Barely registers halfway up the "ohmygawd that's one awful parent" scale...

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

In Westeros ? Barely registers halfway up the "ohmygawd that's one awful parent" scale...

Craster wins the bad parent contest. It's interesting that Sam and Gilly ended up as a team given their shared "crap daddy" histories.

Anyway, regardless of whether Randall Tarly was the worst dad or bottom 10%, I really can't understand OP's inability to feel any sort of sympathy for this innocuous, good natured, guy who was thrown into an icy penal colony.

[Julia H.]

Exactly.

I don't know why people keep judging these characters by their own modern sensibilities, yet they keep doing it.

The world that Martin created is harsh. It's dangerous. The weak tend not to survive, and I'm not just talking about physically weak.

The elder Tarly probably won't win any father of the year awards, but what he put Sam through wasn't really all that bad in the context of the setting.

"Not all that bad" is pretty subjective. It sounds horrible to me, even in the context of a medieval world. After all, in what other context do we see people chained to a wall? Jaime in the Riverrun cell, chained up as a dangerous enemy and valuable prisoner, comes to mind. Oh, yes, there are other horrible parents in ASOIAF besides Lord Tarly (Tywin, Craster, Cersei etc.), though perhaps not so many who torture their children or threaten to kill them. They tend to be horrible in different ways, IMO. As it happens, these parents all fail in their parental roles. Randyll Tarly is one of them. Everyone can decide which of them they consider the worst.

In my opinion that is a pretty flawed or rather incomplete statement. It should be more about acting despite being afraid. Do it despite being scared. Kinda like fake it till you become it. That's bravery instead of falling to ground, crying and shouting "I yield, I yield" in a fucking practice. Look at Waymar Royce vs the Other, he was scared but still fought. There is a reason that it is one of the most badass moments in the series.

And you might say that Sam killed the other. But who cares. It was a silly a scene and was filled with plot armor. If he faced Other again in 1 vs 1 combat, he would cry or just freeze like always because he is in fact a coward.

Yes, Samwell will eventually act despite being afraid and despite knowing himself to be a coward. It takes him a long time to get there, but, as we see, his father's treatment hinders him on that road instead of helping him. The yielding is a direct consequence of all the torture and humiliation Sam went through. That was all the "strategy" his father had taught him with his methods.

As for the rest, you'll have to take it up with GRRM for writing the story that way, and for giving it to Sam of all the characters to kill an Other instead of brave Waymar Royce.