How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

snip

Well said, but I doubt that making sense matters in this thread anymore...

[DigitalCount]

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what?

Feel free to stop obfuscating with weasel words. This was not merely an extreme measure. This was chaining a little boy to a wall, upright, for three days. People ask why Sam always feels like he can't do XYZ, it's because he's verbalizing the constant stream of reproach running through his memories. Why would he believe himself capable of anything if the man who fathered him and raised him told him so often that he was a miserable, craven failure?

I knew a guy who owned a rottweiler, and he said that the most important thing for owning one was having it from the time it was a puppy. On a regular basis, you have to hold down the rottweiler puppy and not allow it to move. Over time, it will grow to associate you with having been powerless, and thus see you as the master. If you don't do this, eventually it will realize that it can snap your bones like twigs.

Maybe Sam would have been capable of one job or another, but on top of any actual abuse Randyll heaped on him, he instilled an abiding assurance that Sam was capable of nothing. He continually told him he was worthless, and what reason would Sam have to believe otherwise? That's what I mean when I say he was just verbalizing what was in his thoughts, because Randyll programmed him to think that way.

Sam's a better man than Randyll could ever hope to be, with his pathetic bullying of a child and his juvenile insistence that the only thing that matters is -- surprise! -- the one thing that he is good at.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Feel free to stop obfuscating with weasel words. This was not merely an extreme measure. This was chaining a little boy to a wall, upright, for three days. People ask why Sam always feels like he can't do XYZ, it's because he's verbalizing the constant stream of reproach running through his memories. Why would he believe himself capable of anything if the man who fathered him and raised him told him so often that he was a miserable, craven failure?

Well that is not true at all. According to Sam his father was initially proud of his son, which turned to disappointment then anger, then loathing and Sam was a failure from the start. It is not like Randyll loathed him from the beginning and that is all Sam had, and all he could react to. His father at one point was proud of him and yet he couldn't do 'XYZ'.

Do you really not think that Randyll or any of the 12 different Master of Arms tried positive reinforcement? The idea that all 12 teachers all had the same strict methods is a little unlikely and frankly says more about the agenda you are trying to present.

For whatever reason, Sam was incapable of motivating himself to do the things that every other noble son (heirs especially) were doing. He'd rather give up. It is clearly not a problem that any of the 12 different Master of Arms had been presented with before, their methods that had worked on others were no use to him.

Randyll and the various trainers of Westeros were not ready to deal with the 'issues' Sam had.

If anyone has watched the new series of True Detective think of Colin Farrell's character and his son. That is probably a modern interpretation of what Sam and Randyll's relationship was like, Randyll thought he was doing the best for his son and wasn't aware of how he was fucking him up.

[DigitalCount]

Lol at "agenda." I guess it must be a political thing if you think chaining someone to the wall for 72 hours is torturing them. Clearly I'm a bleeding heart liberal because I think it's wrong to call in black magic practitioners to bathe a child in blood.

And yes, I think it's very likely that the 12 masters didn't use positive reinforcement, because we see Sam respond to Jon's actual encouragement by killing an Other. Given that they couldn't get results and we are privy to Sam's thought process, it is absolutely apparent that they didn't do anything of the sort.

Randyll was proud that Sam existed. It was a point of pride to have a son. It was not, however, a point of pride to have a weak son, hence the quick turnaround. Furthermore, what is the time frame for all of this? People who say Sam wasn't tortured too much love to bring up that he had many years of peace, but how old was he when he went to the wall? Wasn't he around Jon's age? So then when Randyll finally gave up on him, he was what, 9? How sad that he wasn't out killing lions and bears by then, what a failure. Really, we should wonder what kind of monster Dickon is if he passes muster by Randyll's standards. From a mathematical standpoint alone, if Sam had several years of peace and went to the Watch as a teenager, then Randyll is a psychotic moron.

[Arakan]

Well that is not true at all. According to Sam his father was initially proud of his son, which turned to disappointment then anger, then loathing and Sam was a failure from the start. It is not like Randyll loathed him from the beginning and that is all Sam had, and all he could react to. His father at one point was proud of him and yet he couldn't do 'XYZ'.

Do you really not think that Randyll or any of the 12 different Master of Arms tried positive reinforcement? The idea that all 12 teachers all had the same strict methods is a little unlikely and frankly says more about the agenda you are trying to present.

For whatever reason, Sam was incapable of motivating himself to do the things that every other noble son (heirs especially) were doing. He'd rather give up. It is clearly not a problem that any of the 12 different Master of Arms had been presented with before, their methods that had worked on others were no use to him.

Randyll and the various trainers of Westeros were not ready to deal with the 'issues' Sam had.

If anyone has watched the new series of True Detective think of Colin Farrell's character and his son. That is probably a modern interpretation of what Sam and Randyll's relationship was like, Randyll thought he was doing the best for his son and wasn't aware of how he was fucking him up.

Top post.

I have to say the attitude of some here is laughable and anachronistic in its worst version.

I repeat myself: you judge Randyll Tarly from a 21st century first world "high speed Internet everywhere" position.

Look up what military cadet schools from the 18th century until the 20th century looked like. Be it in UK, France, Russia or the US. I am not evening mentioning Prussia. Go and educate yourself a little bit. This is the metric you should judge Randyll Tarly with.

Yes, he was an asshole towards Sam. But the reason why Randyll got more and more desperate is clearly because Sam absolutely didnt adjust, didnt learn and - judging by his obesity - was lazy and lacking anykind of self-discipline.

In the 21st Century First World were being a spoilt kid is seemingly ok as most of us have no idea what hardship in life actually means, Randyll Tarly might be an asshole and abusive. But guess what? Westeros isn't the 21st Century First World with high speed Internet everywhere.

[DigitalCount]

Oh please. If you want to repeat yourself again go right on ahead, it doesn't make your point relevant or accurate. So if you'd like, you can repeat it again. Also, be sure to cite examples of the use of animal blood and chaining people around their wrists and neck to a wall, where they're in danger of hanging themselves if they fall asleep.

[Arakan]

I wonder why no one so far accused Ned of IS/AQ methods because he forced his 8(!!) year old son to watch how he beheaded a man.

I cannot imagine sth psychologically more traumatic for an 8 (!!) year old kid than that, except watching the one parents and siblings be murdered.

[Arakan]

Oh please. If you want to repeat yourself again go right on ahead, it doesn't make your point relevant or accurate. So if you'd like, you can repeat it again. Also, be sure to cite examples of the use of animal blood and chaining people around their wrists and neck to a wall, where they're in danger of hanging themselves if they fall asleep.

As I said: go and educate yourself what military cadet schools not so long ago looked like. :)

[Ygrain]

Top post.

I have to say the attitude of some here is laughable and anachronistic in its worst version.

I repeat myself: you judge Randyll Tarly from a 21st century first world "high speed Internet everywhere" position.

Look up what military cadet schools from the 18th century until the 20th century looked like. Be it in UK, France, Russia or the US. I am not evening mentioning Prussia. Go and educate yourself a little bit. This is the metric you should judge Randyll Tarly with.

Yes, he was an asshole towards Sam. But the reason why Randyll got more and more desperate is clearly because Sam absolutely didnt adjust, didnt learn and - judging by his obesity - was lazy and lacking anykind of self-discipline.

In the 21st Century First World were being a spoilt kid is seemingly ok as most of us have no idea what hardship in life actually means, Randyll Tarly might be an asshole and abusive. But guess what? Westeros isn't the 21st Century First World with high speed Internet everywhere.

And why do you bring military schools into this? We're talking a parent-child relationship here, and, surprise, surprise, people who are scared can withdraw and do the very opposite of what is required of them.

[Arakan]

By the way, I don't want to defend Randyll Tarly but the extreme way he gets attacked here without considering the other side of the medal is laughable.

I don't even want to start the issue that we only have Sam's very subjective (and very fragmented) pov.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

As I said: go and educate yourself what military cadet schools not so long ago looked like. :)

So, did they succeed, and, in what exactly (except making the subject super obedient)?

And you forget to mention that a certain percentage of "waste" would be perfectly acceptable, but in Randyll's case a.) Sam was his son, not some random number and b.) he had only one son at the time.

A military school and its recruits is not at all the same as father/son, one is impersonal, the other is not. Apples and oranges.

[Arakan]

And why do you bring military schools into this? We're talking a parent-child relationship here, and, surprise, surprise, people who are scared can withdraw and do the very opposite of what is required of them.

Because it's an accurate comparison. Again you are absolutely anachronistic by bringing up 21st century first world parent-child relationships. I am sorry that you cannot see it.

Not so long ago physical punishment of one's own children was the NORM and socially totally acceptable! Same as physical pubishment in schools.

I don't condone this but again I am not living in Westeros but in a 21st Century first world country.

[Arakan]

So, did they succeed, and, in what exactly (except making the subject super obedient)?

And you forget to mention that a certain percentage of "waste" would be perfectly acceptable, but in Randyll's case a.) Sam was his son, not some random number and b.) he had only one son at the time.

A military school and its recruits is not at all the same as father/son, one is impersonal, the other is not. Apples and oranges.

Well, then go look up Frederick the Great as a quite prominent example.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Well, then go look up Frederick the Great as a quite prominent example.

He was chained up and became great as a result?

[Arakan]

@SCR and Ygrain: what do you say wrt Ned's Al Qaida/IS education methods?

[Ygrain]

Because it's an accurate comparison. Again you are absolutely anachronistic by bringing up 21st century first world parent-child relationships. I am sorry that you cannot see it.

Not so long ago physical punishment of one's own children was the NORM and socially totally acceptable! Same as physical pubishment in schools.

I don't condone this but again I am not living in Westeros but in a 21st Century first world country.

Le sigh. Please, show us Westerosi parents who treated their children like that.

Oh, and BTW, your cadet schools example is an anachronism, as well.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lol at "agenda." I guess it must be a political thing if you think chaining someone to the wall for 72 hours is torturing them.

In todays age yes, it quite clearly is. It would be an awful act from a parent.

In Westeros were the 10 year kids like Tygett Lannister and Edriic Dayne are sent to fight in wars where they kill people and live in worse conditions then it probably does not stand out as much.

Clearly I'm a bleeding heart liberal because I think it's wrong to call in black magic practitioners to bathe a child in blood.

Randyll was desperate. Nothing the various Westerosi Master of Arms was getting through to his son. He tried to think outside the box to what other cultures did. He wanted his son to succeed.

Besides, its only blood. Even today teenage girls are willing to do it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3040397/My-greatest-fear-getting-old-19-year-old-vegetarian-model-bathes-PIG-BLOOD-desperate-bid-maintain-youthful-looks-forever.html

To someone like Sam it might seem like torture but then everything seemed like torture to Sam.

And yes, I think it's very likely that the 12 masters didn't use positive reinforcement,

And you are clearly wrong. Some Master of Arms would use positive reinforcement. There is not a chance that every single one of the 12 were all Alliser Thornes, some would be more Rodrik Cassell.

because we see Sam respond to Jon's actual encouragement by killing an Other. Given that they couldn't get results and we are privy to Sam's thought process, it is absolutely apparent that they didn't do anything of the sort.

Oh what codswallop.

Why hadn't this encouragement kicked in hours before when he was refusing to walk and had Small Paul carry him as he gave and lied down to die. How come Jon's encouragement didn't make Sam help his friends at Crasters Keep instead of doing nothing and allowing hiss friends to be killed.

It had nothing to do with Jons encouragement as that had no reaction on the events of the hours and days before when Sam was useless and no help to anyone.

What Sam was reacting to was a primal fear. He had finally came up against something terrifying and finally reacted

The fear that filled Sam then was worse than any fear he had ever felt before, and Samwell Tarly knew every kind of fear. "Mother have mercy," he wept, forgetting the old gods in his terror. "Father protect me, oh oh . . . " His fingers found his dagger and he filled his hand with that.

If only Randyll had something as scary as an Other to try and train Sam with.

[Ygrain]

@SCR and Ygrain: what do you say wrt Ned's Al Qaida/IS education methods?

I must have missed the part where Bran was deeply traumatized by the experience, or when Ned told him that he was worthless.

It seems that you are fond of apples and watermellons.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And why do you bring military schools into this? We're talking a parent-child relationship here, and, surprise, surprise, people who are scared can withdraw and do the very opposite of what is required of them.

Because for all intent and purposes that is what a nobility childhood is. It is a military school. They are being trained for war from an early age.

[Arakan]

Le sigh. Please, show us Westerosi parents who treated their children like that.

Oh, and BTW, your cadet schools example is an anachronism, as well.

I am aware of that. I chose them nevertheless because we are already speaking enlightenment period here. Now you can deduce how military drill of the aristocracy might have looked like in medieval times (when the majority of them were still expected to lead hosts into war).