How Can Anyone Like Samwell Tarly?

[Arakan]

I must have missed the part where Bran was deeply traumatized by the experience, or when Ned told him that he was worthless.

It seems that you are fond of apples and watermellons.

Wow, so it's ok to force an 8 year old boy to watch his father behead a man :)? Why isnt that psychological child abuse? Or does only physical child abuse count?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

@SCR and Ygrain: what do you say wrt Ned's Al Qaida/IS education methods?

I have to say that Ned took great care to teach his sons what he believed they had to be taught in order to do their future duties, also taking care to explain, to disconnect fear from a feeling of shame and at the same time enabling/helping them to face and overcome their fears and in general, respecting their personality.

Of course I do not approve of 7-year-olds attending decapitations (or anyone attending / performing any sort of execution for that matter) but as I said I AM A "RELATIVIST".

However, Bran / Ned is not an appropriate analogy to Sam/Randyll. Arya is the mirror/negative to Sam (actually, it's vise versa). If you want to compare Sam's treatment you'll need to see how Arya was treated by her parents. (Hint: she was not chained).

ETA - Also, I have to say that I was born and raised in the 20th century. I have had my share of corporal punishment by my loving parents and by loving teachers, who thought they were doing the right thing. But I've also seen, from close enough, abusive corporal "punishment" (punishment serving as a "justification" for the abuse). I fucking know the difference.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

. Arya is the mirror/negative to Sam (actually, it's vise versa). If you want to compare Sam's treatment you'll need to see how Arya was treated by her parents. (Hint: she was not chained).

LOL

Seriously?!

There is no comparison, boys are brought up to be warriors and the leaders of men and girls are brought up to marry and forge political allies. Vastly differnt childhoods, with boys being sent off to serve a knight before they are even a teenager.

Arya wanted to be a warrior instead her father told her she will marry some prince and her mother actually arranged that marriage to a Frey. Arya had no say in it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

LOL

Seriously?!

There is no comparison, boys are brought up to be warriors and the leaders of men and girls are brought up to marry and forge political allies. Vastly differnt childhoods, with boys being sent off to serve a knight before they are even a teenager.

Arya wanted to be a warrior instead her father told her she will marry some prince and her mother actually arranged that marriage to a Frey. Arya had no say in it.

Yes, Arya.

If you can't understanding by yourself, I won't bother to explain. It's not worth he effort.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes, Arya.

If you can't understanding by yourself, I won't bother to explain. It's not worth he effort.

Arya wanted to be her own woman. She never wanted to be married off as some political pawn. That is exactly the future that both parents were going to give her. Cat had already married her off.

Noble children have responsibilities. Not living in poverty like the other 99% means they may have to do some things that they dont agree with such as military responsibilities for boys and being married off for girls.

[Arakan]

I have to say that Ned took great care to teach his sons what he believed they had to be taught in order to do their future duties, also taking care to explain, to disconnect fear from a feeling of shame and at the same time enabling/helping them to face and overcome their fears and in general, respecting their personality.

Of course I do not approve of 7-year-olds attending decapitations (or anyone attending / performing any sort of execution for that matter) but as I said I AM A "RELATIVIST".

And how do you know that Randyll Tarly didnt try the same approach initially as Ned did?

Right. you don't know, you just assume.

The fact alone that Randyll hired 12(!) different masters-at-arms to teach Sam should give you an indication how desperate he became in the end. I wont even start to speak about Sam's absolute lack of self-discipline.

But actually I don't wonder anymore. We simply have a different attitude towards the inportance of self-discipline. I am not that old but even I can already see how the attittude is changing. Just have to take a look at schools where it's nowadays the teacher's fault when children show bad performances. In my time by default it was the student's fault because he/she didnt learn enough or simply was lazy.

When someone has that kind of attitude of course it's always the teacher's fault (Randyll), not the pupil's (Sam).

[Arakan]

Arya wanted to be her own woman. She never wanted to be married off as some political pawn. That is exactly the future that both parents were going to give her. Cat had already married her off.

Noble children have responsibilities. Not living in poverty like the other 99% means they may have to do some things that they dont agree with such as military responsibilities for boys and being married off for girls.

Many of us have. You are not alone in this, and not everyone who has suffered 'abuse' agrees with your point of view.

Preach, brother, preach.

You said it correctly: Westeros is a place where children of 12+ are sent into the slaughterhouse of war but Randyll Tarly gets singled out as worst father of the continent.

Man, man, man. Some really have a flexible metric.

[El Guapo]

The fact that Randyll alllowed his incompetent wuss of a son to live and take the black is commendable.

:drool:

[William_Tell]

I've lost hope for this thread. Go on justify what you want. Randyll Tarly is an abusive asshole too stupid to understand basic human decency. In 2015, in 198 AC, in Westeros, on earth, in the middle ages and on Mars.

[Arakan]

The fact that Randyll alllowed his incompetent wuss of a son to live and take the black is commendable.

:drool:

Nope. But maybe we should call Amnesty International or UNICEF because forced marriage of children, massive use of child soldiers and kidnapping of children as political hostages FARC style.

But yes, Randyll Tarly is THE child abuser of Westeros.

[Arakan]

I've lost hope for this thread. Go on justify what you want. Randyll Tarly is an abusive asshole too stupid to understand basic human decency. In 2015, in 198 AC, in Westeros, on earth, in the middle ages and on Mars.

Yes he is. But let's speak about the psychological terror a 10 year old child named T. Greyjoy must have felt when he was kidnapped and taken hostage, with the fear to be beheaded every moment.

Or what about sending children into war like E.Dayne to fight psychopaths...

[William_Tell]

Yes he is. But let's speak about the psychological terror a 10 year old child named T. Greyjoy must have felt when he was kidnapped and taken hostage, with the fear to be beheaded every moment.

Or what about sending children into war like E.Dayne to fight psychopaths...

Yeah we could discuss that so that I can show you when it is the case to apply cultural relativism and when it's not.

But I'll really don't care. If you do, I have supplied an example of a XIII century story that stigmatizes a father for abusing his son. Maybe they were applying 21st century morals... go scold it, if you please

[Julia H.]

Wow. Just wow.

And I think its quite apparent that Sam becoming a maester would take years at best, and possibly not at all. All that time he's still be the heir of Horn Hill.

Considering the ages of Ned and Randylls children it seems that both are of a similar age. Can you imagine Sam leading the troops in a war like those two men, it would be a disaster.

Dickon seems to be fine.

How do you know it was Randyll's fault that Sam was the way he was, why not his mother's or even something else unrelated to his parents.

Randyll, according to Sam, tried. As the Westeros psychology was probably not as advanced as ours he was probably not have been given the same advice as to how to deal with Sam. What failed with him may have worked with other young squires. It is not like Randyll was alone in his thinking. Paxter Redwyne and 12 Master of Arms also thought he was a lost cause.

This is what Randyll told Sam:

"So I have decided that you shall this day announce that you wish to take the black. You will forsake all claim to your brother's inheritance and start north before nightfall."

Now imagine that Sam forsakes all claim and announces that he will study to become a maester. What is the chance that Sam, the weakling, ever comes back to take back what he has forsaken from his more militant, more capable brother?

Let me quote another post of yours:

And it's not like he had even sworn his vows. He didn't have to join the Watch like the criminals who had been sent there. He was free to leave. Sadly he was not able to do that, he needed looking after. The Nights Watch would provide that.

If you really think that Sam didn't leave the NW before taking his vows because he could not survive alone, how can you think that Randyll had to be afraid that Sam would ever return from the Citadel to claim his inheritance?

But anyway: We are told (in the book) why Randyll didn't want Sam to become a maester. It was because he considered it shameful for his house despite all the noble maesters and acolytes we know of.

How do I know that it was Randyll's fault that Sam was the way he was? Well, apparently Sam was not born to be a soldier. That was not Randyll's or anyone else's fault. That Sam grew up to be traumatized was Randyll's fault - all his bad memories are connected with his father, he is afraid of his father (it is never suggested that he was afraid of his mother, for example).

Not really, the only thing he did that can be classed as abuse is chaining him to a wall to stop him eating. Granted this is an extreme measure to force his son to diet and stop eating, sam was what? 20 stone at the age of 17? That's a dangerous level of obesity for someone so young. I imagine his BMI would indicate that he was severly obese. Yes his methods were extreme, forcing him to diet and train wasn't working so he had to go to extreme lengths.

:read: the book. Sam was chained to the Wall to make him give up all plans to become a maester. It had nothing to do with a healthy lifestyle.

And how do you know that Randyll Tarly didnt try the same approach initially as Ned did?
Right. you don't know, you just assume.
The fact alone that Randyll hired 12(!) different masters-at-arms to teach Sam should give you an indication how desperate he became in the end. I wont even start to speak about Sam's absolute lack of self-discipline.

But actually I don't wonder anymore. We simply have a different attitude towards the inportance of self-discipline. I am not that old but even I can already see how the attittude is changing. Just have to take a look at schools where it's nowadays the teacher's fault when children show bad performances. In my time by default it was the student's fault because he/she didnt learn enough or simply was lazy.

When someone has that kind of attitude of course it's always the teacher's fault (Randyll), not the pupil's (Sam).

This is not real life, it is a book. We have the information the author gives us. Of course, we can imagine that off-page Randyll Tarly was the most loving parent and the incidents Sam remembers were untypical. But this is what the author gave us, and he did that because that is how he wanted to characterize his characters. That's how he shows us Randyll Tarly. If there is no mention of Randyll being initially just like Ned, then it is very probable that we are not meant to imagine Randyll Tarly being similar to Ned.

But even if he had been liked Ned, what might have changed him so much? That his little son failed him? In universe, think of Jeor Mormont: his adult son failed him in a much worse way, and yet he still does not hate him.

I'm a teacher and I don't think the student's failure is always the teacher's fault. But nor is it always the student's - especially when the expectations are unrealistic to start with. And no matter how frustrated a teacher is, torture and abuse won't make the student any more successful. My problem with Randyll is not that he failed as a teacher. My problem with him is that he failed as a parent. Jon, a 14-year-old boy in-universe, was intelligent enough to realize that Sam would never be a warrior, no matter how hard you tried to beat him, and yet he had talents that could be used. If a parent cannot realize that, it is failure. Why is it a crime for a child / young adolescent to fail his military training while at the same time it is OK for a parent to fail the child so horribly?

[Treeluva]

Beyond the human limit of a massively overweight coward. It doesn't matter if it was the 1st opportunity, his weakness got a brother killed.

By this logic - Jon Snow's weakness got a brother killed too - by his own hands.

Ned got his men (and family) killed due to his weakness.

Robb got hundreds/thousands killed because of his weakness.

Sansa got her father killed because of her weakness.

Arya got people killed because of her weakness.

Dany gets people killed because of her weakness.

Cat kills people because of her weakness.

Theon gets people killed because of his weakness.

Stannis gets people killed because of his weakness.

Davos gets people killed because of his weakness.

Shall I continue? Every flippin' person in this book either kills people or gets them killed because of their weaknesses.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Now imagine that Sam forsakes all claim and announces that he will study to become a maester. What is the chance that Sam, the weakling, ever comes back to take back what he has forsaken from his more militant, more capable brother?

It is not as simple as turning up and becoming a Maester just as its not as easy as turning up at a University and getting a doctorate. It would take years, Sam may never actually get enough chains to become a Maester.

The law would say it's Sams Lordship and someone like Bronn could manipulate it so he gets it so they can start living if his money. There are plently of threats to a weak Lord.

Or even other neighbouring Lords or even Tarly vassals would support Sam over his younger brother knowing he is a weaker leader and less likely to stand up to them.

If you really think that Sam didn't leave the NW before taking his vows because he could not survive alone, how can you think that Randyll had to be afraid that Sam would ever return from the Citadel to claim his inheritance?

How do you think Leo Tyrell and most of the other acolytes survive at the Citadel? Their families finacially support them. Had he gone to Oldtown the Tarlys would be covering his expenses. He would not be surviving alone.

Look how uses less he was in Braavos, expecting Dareon to earn the money for them.

But anyway: We are told (in the book) why Randyll didn't want Sam to become a maester. It was because he considered it shameful for his house despite all the noble maesters and acolytes we know of.

Yep. That would be the top reason but there is also the fact that merely going to Oldtown does not make you a Maester. It requires a mental fortitude and a willingness not to give up that Sam had never shown any signs of till ADWD.

Had he gone to Oldtown and Randyll died in the War of the Five Kings then Sam would have became the Lord of Horn Hill. And that would have been a disaster. Unfortunately most of the people who have met Sam consider him weak and someone easily pushed around. They would have been ready to take advantage of him.

How do I know that it was Randyll's fault that Sam was the way he was? Well, apparently Sam was not born to be a soldier. That was not Randyll's or anyone else's fault. That Sam grew up to be traumatized was Randyll's fault - all his bad memories are connected with his father,

Not according to Sam. Sam states that his father was originally proud of him, yet Sam was always poor at training. He didn't become poor through 'abuse', as that came later.

I agree, in more enlightened times with greater understanding of the human psyche or times when the head of House is not under the threat of war every generation more could have been done to placate Sam.

But ruling a House, especially a House on a border requires confidence, determination, will power, respect from vassals, allies and enemies and Sam was lacking in all of those.

I agree totally that he has other qualities which in a different time might have made him the perfect choice for a leader but not in the medieval ages where every House is competing with each other and will attack any perceived weakness.

he is afraid of his father (it is never suggested that he was afraid of his mother, for example).

No shit Sherlock!

Traditionally mothers and fathers had different roles in the raising of the children. I'm pretty sure you are aware of this. No idea why you are creating straw man arguments.

This is not real life, it is a book.

So why are you blabbering on about your experiences as a teacher?

But even if he had been liked Ned, what might have changed him so much? That his little son failed him? In universe, think of Jeor Mormont: his adult son failed him in a much worse way, and yet he still does not hate him.

And how do you know Randyll hates Sam? I think you are projecting. We have no idea what he thinks about his son.

He genuinely, as do many others in Westeros, feel he is not cut out to lead a House. Tarly had to remove him from the succession line for the good of the House. He made a tough choice. He could have actually killed him, not only that he could have killed him many years before. He didn't. Instead he let him enjoy his remaining childhood years before he had to be removed from the succession line and sent to the Wall as a noble with a nobles armour and other goods. While I'm not suggesting that makes him a good father to Sam it is tangible evidence that he does not hate him, just very disappointed in him.

A tough choice, but Randyll could die at any time and Sam being heir genuinely threatened the Tarlys current standing. He had to put the other Tarlys and the people of Horn Hill first.

Jon, a 14-year-old boy in-universe, was intelligent enough to realize that Sam would never be a warrior, no matter how hard you tried to beat him, and yet he had talents that could be used. If a parent cannot realize that, it is failure. Why is it a crime for a child / young adolescent to fail his military training while at the same time it is OK for a parent to fail the child so horribly?

Randyll was intelligent enough to realize this. That was why he stopped trying to train him and gave him a peaceful remaining childhood before he became a man at 15.

Sam went to the Wall at 15, he tells us that he had several years of peace. Realistically his training would not have started till around he was at least 5. He didn't suffer that long and most of it was what other young nobles were going through as well. It seemed worse to him because he was weaker, other nobles got used to the occasional hit.

His dad wanted Sam to make it as a Lord as they have better lives than anyone else, unfortunately he was not capable of fulfilling the accepted duties of an heir. He was unwilling or unable to make any kind of effort. It is sad, I'm sure Randyll realizes that he bears some responsibility for that as well.

[Boarsbane]

By this logic - Jon Snow's weakness got a brother killed too - by his own hands.

Ned got his men (and family) killed due to his weakness.

Robb got hundreds/thousands killed because of his weakness.

Sansa got her father killed because of her weakness.

Arya got people killed because of her weakness.

Dany gets people killed because of her weakness.

Cat kills people because of her weakness.

Theon gets people killed because of his weakness.

Stannis gets people killed because of his weakness.

Davos gets people killed because of his weakness.

Shall I continue? Every flippin' person in this book either kills people or gets them killed because of their weaknesses.

I don't know what logic you are using but it sure as hell isn't the same as mine. Those people got others killed, sometimes by fault of their own, but it was hardly weakness in most of their cases.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

This thread! I dont understand anymore, someone pls explain?! The inconstistensies, the hypocrasy. I CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE.

[Minsc]

Can anyone recall Jon's direct reaction to Sam's treatment by his father. As that would give us an understanding of how it is viewed within a Westerosi context?

[Boarsbane]

Can anyone recall Jon's direct reaction to Sam's treatment by his father. As that would give us an understanding of how it is viewed within a Westerosi context?

He doesn't express any shock or outrage and changes the subject

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Can anyone recall Jon's direct reaction to Sam's treatment by his father. As that would give us an understanding of how it is viewed within a Westerosi context?

Sam told the tale in a calm, dead voice, as if it were something that had happened to someone else, not to him. And strangely, Jon thought, he did not weep, not even once. When he was done, they sat together and listened to the wind for a time. There was no other sound in all the world.

Finally Jon said, "We should go back to the common hall."

"Why?" Sam asked.

Jon shrugged. "There's hot cider to drink, or mulled wine if you prefer. Some nights Dareon sings for us, if the mood is on him. He was a singer, before . . . well, not truly, but almost, an apprentice singer."

How did he come here?" Sam asked. "Lord Rowan of Goldengrove found him in bed with his daughter. The girl was two years older, and Dareon swears she helped him through her window, but under her father's eye she named it rape, so here he is.

I think he feels it is a sad story and he pities Sam, but he pitied him before he told the tale. He then tells Sam the story of Dareon, another one who was unfairly brought there. The Wall is full of people who had poor lives and dont deserve to be there.