Heresy 172

[wolfmaid7]

Agree that Ned wonders if Rhaegar frequented brothels. Then thinks not. But that seems a far cry from "exempting" Rhaegar from weaknesses/lusts of men in general. Even in context of the rest of the scene. Not saying we know enough about Rhaegar to assert he had those weaknesses, but can't see how this excludes it. Raises questions, yes. But how are you getting to "excluding?" Can't see that yet. . . .

HA! Yes--they'd make an interesting boy band. Still, though I've thought myself that Rhaegar might be gay, we don't have anywhere near enough to support that ye. JonCon--yeah. That's supportable.

Yeah--this I really can't see. It's one sentence, if I remember right. "He thought not." Seems a far cry from "holy". . . .

Ned's quote along with Selmy's info on Aery's Knights cracking on Rhaegar for being like Baelor the blessed to says Rhaegar probably scene a couple of sausages up close.Its kind of tough to actually gauge what they were referencing.We know Baelor wasn't known for his liking of the ladies.

I could see this, if we get a chapter where Jon Con essentially states that he was doing more than pining. If Rhaegar was gay, Jon Con apparently knew nothing about it from the vibe I get from his chapters (all longing and no release).

Or at least is the brooding Byronic emo. ;-)

But yeah, that would put a twist on all the preconceived notions of R+L=J and be rather satisfying, I'd say.

It would make me wonder then why the Tower of Joy was called the Tower of... wait... it's in Dorne (near the border) and not too far away from Summerhall (comparitively speaking to King's Landing)... Tinfoil: The reason the Tower of Joy is called that, is because that's where Rhaegar and Arthur met before Arthur joined the Kingsguard. And all this time Rhaegar was gay, but into Arthur, not Jon Con. :drunk:

tower of joy-----A place where all the sausages meet to get stroked.

[Sly Wren]

Agree on taking the chapter as a whole. And, now that you've cited it, am remembering why that passage bugged me (I'm out of country. No books. Or would have looked it up myself). So, thank you very much for quoting all of this. :)

No issues with points 1-3.

Point 4:

4. Ah, the promise. The promises Ned made to Lyanna as she lay dying. Would he tell her the truth? That he killed Arthur Dayne? Or would he ease her passing from this world by telling a lie that was not without honor? And, what is it that prompts Ned to recall the promises he made to Lyanna? Why, it was the request from this poor young girl. Ned knew Robert would not honor this girl, just as he knew he and Arthur could do nothing for Lyanna at that point.

Agree that it could be this--and that Arthur could=daddy. Symbolism, the Daynes coming in, why on earth Martin brings in Ned Dayne for a chat with Arya--it works. But even though this girl asks a specific promise of Ned, can't see why that innately means Lyanna asked the same thing--suggestive, yes, but seems like any plea would do, especially a hopeless one. And Ned remembers more than one promise--agree this is possible. But not absolute--not yet.

Same goes for point 5--but I agree on the "good to you"--this scene depresses me and I know it's fictional.

Point 6:

6. Lusts? Wait a minute... What lusts? Rhaegar surely wasn't acting out of lust! He had just fulfilled the prophecy of tptwp with the birth of his son Aegon, and the dragon needs three heads. He's not acting out of lust, he's rising to the call of duty. Doesn't Ned really mean to ask why the gods fill men with the urge to elope and have secret weddings? ;) Joking of course, but it is a very interesting paragraph. And, at the very least, seems to confirm that Jon is a bastard. Are these "lusts" Eddard's or Robert's? Or both? Is Ned also recalling the lust of his fellow man of impeccable honor, Arthur Dayne? It's all conjecture, but I think you will agree that "lustful" would seem to be applicable to any of these men, save Rhaegar Targaryen.

Fully agree it seems to confirm Jon as bastard. And that we don't have any references to Rhaegar as lustful--and you'd think JonCon would have noticed. But still can't see how that innately excludes Rhaegar. Only thing I can think of off-hand is Cersei's implied surprise that he didn't seem attracted to her--but that doesn't seem enough, either. Ned does say men--but I'm assuming you're not arguing Rhaegar isn't a man--again, you'd think JonCon would have noticed.

Agree with 7 and 8--would only add that Ned is getting an earful of the gossip Petyr picks up--and while he finds it useful, he doesn't like it.

9 and 10:

9. Because Jon Arryn was in the business of protecting the king's only heirs. Funny that Ned doesn't make that connection if he were in fact doing the same thing.

10. Hmm.... "blurt out that the sun rises in the east..." It's an interesting choice of quip here from GRRM. The sun of dawn rises in the east. The sword of the morning is the rising sun of Dawn. Dawn of the Day=Dayne. Natural fire, rather than Valyrian. Jon doesn't feel right holding Longclaw. It isn't his father's sword, after all. ;)

But Ned did make the connection of caring for the kids--or at least he might have. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?" Seems like the "taking care of" might have already occurred to Ned. He's moved on to the fact that the taking care of wasn't the problem.

On 10, it could work--but also could just work as Petyr sarcasm and duplicitous nature--seems like you have to assume the Jon is Arthur's son for the quip to be a symbol . . .

11 and 12:

11. Another damning choice of words. Regardless of the other times Ned recalls Rhaegar, and the various ways the faithful have attempted to explain-away this anomaly, it remains a ponderous statement if Rhaegar was indeed Jon's father. I think the whole chapter removes Rhaegar from the discussion, and this is but one more reason to do so (for myself).

12. Rhaegar was next in line, and would now sit the IT if Eddard had not aided in usurping the dragonlords, and planted his drunken, lustful best friend there instead. Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. He wondered if Rhaegar was lustful. He wondered if Rhaegar strayed and took his pleasure from multiple beds. He wondered if Rhaegar fathered bastards like Robert...

Somehow, he thought not.

As I said above, am now remembering why the brothel statement bothered me as proof of Rhaegar's fidelity. When I read this, I saw Ned's thinking that as tied to the fact that he's just heard Petyr (a brothel owner) spill a lot of secrets about a man (Robert) whose peccadilloes (some in brothels) have left him vulnerable to gossip, information, people working behind his back, political messes--as Ned notes, it got Jon Arryn killed. I think there's at least a case to be made that the "not frequenting brothels" could mean "too smart to put himself in this position." Rhaegar seems to have made one big mistake--disappearing with Lyanna. Okay, two--that stupid wreath.

In short, it could be about Rhaegar's lust or lack thereof, or it could be about Petyr, gossip, Arryn, politics--Arryn getting dead. Robert's brothelling set up secrets and lies--tied to bastards, of course, but not just about the lust. About the stupid. The passage is a bit ambiguous, Ned is rarely expansive, even in his own head. And more than likely you've heard this interp before. But I think the text at least affords it as well as your own interp.

Bottom line: agree this could imply Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, but can't see it as proof positive.

[Lady Dyanna]

welllllllll, there is a theory that someone else(likely richard lonmouth) wore rhaegar's armor on the trident and that rhaegar is now mance. it would explain mance's interest in jon. it would explain the line "they found him still holding her" (in this case they is ned and howland and him is rhaegar)

it's not one i personally believe (because mance was already at the wall before the rebellion) but i don't discount it entirely

that seems to back up the fact that dany and aegon fight? no?

I would think so.

As to the above, I think that there's probably more to Mance than meets the eye, however, with the hair and eye color, I can't get totally on board with him being Rhaegar.

[Voice]

Agree on taking the chapter as a whole. And, now that you've cited it, am remembering why that passage bugged me (I'm in Budapest. No books. Or would have looked it up myself). So, thank you very much for quoting all of this. :)

No issues with points 1-3.

Point 4:

Agree that it could be this--and that Arthur could=daddy. Symbolism, the Daynes coming in, why on earth Martin brings in Ned Dayne for a chat with Arya--it works. But even though this girl asks a specific promise of Ned, can't see why that innately means Lyanna asked the same thing--suggestive, yes, but seems like any plea would do, especially a hopeless one. And Ned remembers more than one promise--agree this is possible. But not absolute--not yet.

Same goes for point 5--but I agree on the "good to you"--this scene depresses me and I know it's fictional.

Point 6:

Fully agree it seems to confirm Jon as bastard. And that we don't have any references to Rhaegar as lustful--and you'd think JonCon would have noticed. But still can't see how that innately excludes Rhaegar. Only thing I can think of off-hand is Cersei's implied surprise that he didn't seem attracted to her--but that doesn't seem enough, either. Ned does say men--but I'm assuming you're not arguing Rhaegar isn't a man--again, you'd think JonCon would have noticed.

Agree with 7 and 8--would only add that Ned is getting an earful of the gossip Petyr picks up--and while he finds it useful, he doesn't like it.

9 and 10:

But Ned did make the connection of caring for the kids--or at least he might have. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?" Seems like the "taking care of" might have already occurred to Ned. He's moved on to the fact that the taking care of wasn't the problem.

On 10, it could work--but also could just work as Petyr sarcasm and duplicitous nature--seems like you have to assume the Jon is Arthur's son for the quip to be a symbol . . .

11 and 12:

As I said above, am now remembering why the brothel statement bothered me as proof of Rhaegar's fidelity. When I read this, I saw Ned's thinking that as tied to the fact that he's just heard Petyr (a brothel owner) spill a lot of secrets about a man (Robert) whose peccadilloes (some in brothels) have left him vulnerable to gossip, information, people working behind his back, political messes--as Ned notes, it got Jon Arryn killed. I think there's at least a case to be made that the "not frequenting brothels" could mean "too smart to put himself in this position." Rhaegar seems to have made one big mistake--disappearing with Lyanna. Okay, two--that stupid wreath.

In short, it could be about Rhaegar's lust or lack thereof, or it could be about Petyr, gossip, Arryn, politics--Arryn getting dead. Robert's brothelling set up secrets and lies--tied to bastards, of course, but not just about the lust. About the stupid. The passage is a bit ambiguous, Ned is rarely expansive, even in his own head. And more than likely you've heard this interp before. But I think the text at least affords it as well as your own interp.

Bottom line: agree this could imply Rhaegar isn't Jon's father, but can't see it as proof positive.

First off all, great points. I have no desire to force my views on others. What's really funny is that I reread this stuff most recently trying to prove RLJ to myself for the bicentennial project. Before that, I never really cared about Jon's parentage. We agree on much, I was only offering my interpretation of the brothel scene, so onward to your points....

Point 4:

I didn't mean to imply that the promise Lyanna asked must be this same promise, only offering an alternative to the Faithful version. It is accurate to state that this girl's state, appearance, mannerisms, and words conjured Ned's memory of Lyanna and the promises he made her. Quite intriguing.

Point 5: It depresses me too. I know they're fictional as well, but I can't help but loathe Robert Baratheon.

Point 6:

It alone does not innately exclude him, but he was not a lustful man, by any account. Ned is the most reliable narrator on all matters regarding Lyanna's relationship status, and in the brothel, Ned is associating all men except Rhaegar with such lusts, which lead to the siring of bastards. He excludes Rhaegar, per the canon... that part isn't my interp...

On 7 and 8: :cheers:

9 and 10:

Precisely. And yet, he doesn't at this time realize that Jon Arryn might have been protecting/caring for royal bastard-heirs. That's quite strange if Ned is in fact doing the exact same thing.

10b: the quip

Yes, that again was only my spin on things. The text is full of rising sun imagery around Jon Snow, this is but an early one, in a chapter in which both he and Lyanna are contemplated by Ned on a very deep level. There are no mistakes, and such a quip, from a particularly untrustworthy man, is an easy place for GRRM to hide some truth.

11 and 12:

I don't see how an argument can be made that Rhaegar was too smart to put himself in that position, if R+L=J truly, because Rhaegar ended up dead in a river as a result. But, more directly, I think Ned makes the distinction quite clear. There are lustful men, who visit brothels and father bastards, then there is Rhaegar. He didn't doubt Rhaegar visited because he was too smart to, but because he was no Robert Baratheon to go bed-hopping. Rhaegar loved his lady Elia ;) and he kept to her bed. Lyanna was not a homewrecker, and Rhaegar believed his son Aegon was tptwp. If he was smart, he was too smart to risk abducting the wolf girl. I think it's far more likely that he went to war for his friend, Arthur, just as Ned went to war for his friend Robert.

I respect your bottom line, but for me, taken as a whole it is damning. And this is coming from the guy who was saying Rhaegar is the only man to have ever bedded Lyanna, canonically speaking. So I don't take this stuff lightly. I came to this realization while trying to prove RLJ to myself, which is pretty ironic. LOL

[Lady Dyanna]

I'm sure the dragons will turn out to be terrible and destructive but I'm also inclined to see that as Danaerys and Aegon and whatever Varys is really up to.

Could very well be. They do seem to symbolize Targaryans with dragons an awful lot. At the very least,however, it seems to me to infer future conflict between Dany and Aegon as having a negative impact on Westeros.

[Lady Dyanna]

Agreed.

The only way I could see Rhaegar living was if he was stripped of his armour and his body allowed to float off downstream to the Quiet Isle. The cremation referred to by GRRM doesn't actually signify in that it was a necessary step to prove to the groundlings that the Prince was dead and for that any bloody corpse would do. It wasn't as is he was lying in state.

Whether, if so, it'll actually amount to anything I really don't know but I would laugh like a drain if he lived long enough to deny he was the one who knocked Lyanna up and that Jon Snow's father is/was....

Looking back at this, there had to have been some reason why we are introduced as readers to the Quiet Isle. Then we are told about items and people washing up on shore there (including Rhaegar's rubies.) Not only that, but then we're shown cabins specifically used for women, in particular those giving birth. Hmmmm...

[Lady Dyanna]

Yes indeed, the point I was making up above is even if by some curious chance he does live, he isn't a player

No. Not a player in the game of thrones, but maybe a player in the battle for the dawn? Could it be that he sacrificed his political purpose for a prophesied one that he felt more important?

[Lady Dyanna]

If Mance is a secret identity for anyone, he's Arthur Dayne in my opinion. I've posted in a previous Heresy thread about how supernaturally good Mance Rayder is with a two-handed sword. That, and all the same reasons apply (secret protector, etc.), since Dayne was Rhaegar's closest friend.

This is the first I've heard of this theory, but I think I agree with it.

[Lady Dyanna]

Theoretically, that backstory could be a falsification from the Night's Watch leadership that others had no reason to question. Mance, if I recall correctly, grew up/was stationed at a peripheral post away from Castle Black (Shadow Tower, I believe). Since "The Watch takes no part..." it's not out of the question that they would accept someone like Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne. If they were stationed at Shadow Tower exclusively for a short time, the false identity would be easier to hide and become accepted truth to the majority of the watch (sort of like how people sort of forgot that Aemon is a Targaryen).

I agree.

[Lady Dyanna]

Not ruling it out entirely, but I find that very hard to believe. Qhorin was also at the Shadow Tower, and he's been there for a LONG time. If Rhaegar or Dayne suddenly showed up, he'd have noticed, he'd know the story is fake. And he would have no reason to tell a known fake story to Jon, when he can just tell nothing.

Qhorin in my mind could very well know that the story is false. He might also have additional knowledge as to why Mance left the wall and could even believe in his mission. Not something you would want to share with unbelieving NW members... This might also explain why Qhorin was so keen to take Jon with him on his mission.

[Lady Dyanna]

is there any evidence that arthur survived the 7-3 battle though? not really. while we do have the ruby thing and the richard lonmouths body not being found for rhaegar

I don't think that there is any direct evidence of him surviving, however, there is that quote from Ned that Arthur Dayne would have killed him if not for Howland Reed. Some believe that this opens the door for Dayne to have survived.

[Lady Dyanna]

Additionally, The Princess and the Queen talks about how the Northmen fighting for Rhaenyra Targaryan had a habit of arranging the corpses of their enemies into grotesque scenes like a feast. Eventually, Aegon II's troops stopped paying attention to these arrangements, and were then caught off guard when it turned out one of them was a trap and the "corpses" appeared to spring to life because they were actually Northern soldiers who'd been playing dead. It's very hard to read the passage about this and not thing of wights rising, which again makes me wonder about the implications of a Second Dance.

This is actually freaking me out a bit right now in light of the HOTU vision and the dream regarding feasting dead Starks.

[wolfmaid7]

This is actually freaking me out a bit right now in light of the HOTU vision and the dream regarding feasting dead Starks.

Its totally badass !!

[Black Crow]

Are you asking rhetorically or do you have someone in mind? I can't think of anyone who fits the bill of a boy who ended up with wildling raiders. I agree that Quorin and the others have no reason to dissemble about his backstory. But I can't think of anything specific.

Its partly rhetorical. My real point as I've said is that we have no reason at all to doubt the backstory since it comes from men who knew him personally at the Shadow Tower including Qhorin who appears to be a contemporary or near contemporary in age and are telling the story in a context which admits of no reason to protect him. Quite the contrary.

Therefore, if there is a hidden significance to him we need to look not at grown men whether Rhaegar, Ser Arthur Dayne or any other figures from Robert's Rebellion, but further back to that boy fleeing northwards with what appeared to be a Wildling raiding party, ie; armed men north of the Wall who were not wearing the black.

And there no, there is no known candidate, but working backwards from his perceived age he must have been picked up at about the time of the War of the Ninepenny Kings, so his apparent need to display colours of red and black might therefore suggest a Blackfyre connection. Maelys the Monstrous does not have a recorded son and heir, but hey, this is Westeros.

[Black Crow]

As I said above, am now remembering why the brothel statement bothered me as proof of Rhaegar's fidelity. When I read this, I saw Ned's thinking that as tied to the fact that he's just heard Petyr (a brothel owner) spill a lot of secrets about a man (Robert) whose peccadilloes (some in brothels) have left him vulnerable to gossip, information, people working behind his back, political messes--as Ned notes, it got Jon Arryn killed. I think there's at least a case to be made that the "not frequenting brothels" could mean "too smart to put himself in this position."

About to head out to work so this is not specifically directed at your post.

Notwithstanding what appears to be a strict moral code adhered to by Lord Eddard, I can't avoid the feeling that this was not a friendly thought

[Black Crow]

What a pleasant surprise to find Vinculus as our favorite red priest of Myr being non other than Thoros himself.

On the fly I'm afraid but I'll try to PM you tonight. Unfortunately, as I said to Wolfmaid pretty much all of the Raven King stuff in the book which intrigued us in its parallels with the present tale, has been filleted out of the mummers' version.

[Lady Dyanna]

I read the theory--it is fun. But I can't see how or why it could work. A lot of people seem to have seen Rhaegar die--and then scrambled for the rubies. . . . But I believe Voice has a theory of Lyanna's being connected to a weirwood in Winterfell . . .

I vaguely remember reading through one of the threads with someone arguing that about Lyanna...

The theory itself, certainly doesn't provide enough evidence to make it plausible, however, something about it still rings true to me. I can see Rhaegar washing up on the Quiet Isle after the battle, meeting up with Lyanna, who is nearly ready to give birth. He stays with her until Ned shows up, but knows Lyanna is dying. He feels he must live due to the prophesied future, but knows that he can only survive in hiding. For whatever reason, he is forced to turn to the many faces God/faceless men and must in turn dedicate himself to them for their assistance. It would certainly give this group a stronger reason to be introduced to us in the series. Plus it's already rumored for them (the faceless men) to have a Targaryan link through BR. In a way that would also help to make sense of Jaqen's protective behavior towards Arya. This could be one of the secrets that Ned is harboring. Also, if Howland Reed burst out that Rhaegar was still alive during the battle with the KG this would certainly give Arthur Dayne reason to pause, and possibly go into hiding himself. Or I could just be nuts...

[Regular John Umber]

tower of joy-----A place where all the sausages meet to get stroked.

Good lord, could 'tower of joy' be a euphimism?

[wolfmaid7]

About to head out to work so this is not specifically directed at your post.

Notwithstanding what appears to be a strict moral code adhered to by Lord Eddard, I can't avoid the feeling that this was not a friendly thought

I'm 100% sure you are right BC.Ned's thoughts both of them (its a twofer) concerning Rhaegar here were not a flattering ones

Good lord, could 'tower of joy' be a euphimism?

That would be soooo funny if it was some kind of "brother hood" like the Sacred Band of Thebes or something.

[nanother]

I meant the chapter as a whole, for me, negates Rhaegar as Jon's father, particularly if Lyanna is Jon's mother, not that single part. There are many strikes against RLJ in this chapter. But that passage is quite suggestive regarding the weaknesses of men like himself (Ned) and Robert. And yes, he does seem to exclude Rhaegar. I'll break down my reading of it...

Eddard IX:

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts¹. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." ²

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair . . . "

"She does." Eddard Stark had touched the baby's fine, dark hair. It flowed through his fingers like black silk. Robert's firstborn had had the same fine hair, he seemed to recall.³

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it . . . as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.⁴

"And tell him I've not been with no one else. I swear it, milord, by the old gods and new. Chataya said I could have half a year, for the baby, and for hoping he'd come back. So you'll tell him I'm waiting, won't you? I don't want no jewels or nothing, just him. He was always good to me, truly." ⁵

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."⁵

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him.⁵ Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? ⁶

"Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?" ⁷

"Well, he has more than you, for a start."

"How many?"

Littlefinger shrugged. Rivulets of moisture twisted down the back of his cloak. "Does it matter? If you bed enough women, some will give you presents, and His Grace has never been shy on that count. I know he's acknowledged that boy at Storm's End, the one he fathered the night Lord Stannis wed. He could hardly do otherwise. The mother was a Florent, niece to the Lady Selyse, one of her bedmaids. Renly says that Robert carried the girl upstairs during the feast, and broke in the wedding bed while Stannis and his bride were still dancing. Lord Stannis seemed to think that was a blot on the honor of his wife's House, so when the boy was born, he shipped him off to Renly." He gave Ned a sideways glance. "I've also heard whispers that Robert got a pair of twins on a serving wench at Casterly Rock, three years ago when he went west for Lord Tywin's tourney. Cersei had the babes killed, and sold the mother to a passing slaver. Too much an affront to Lannister pride, that close to home." ⁸

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. "Why would Jon Arryn take a sudden interest in the king's baseborn children?" ⁹

The short man gave a sodden shrug. "He was the King's Hand. Doubtless Robert asked him to see that they were provided for."

Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. "It had to be more than that, or why kill him?"

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." ¹⁰

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.¹¹ He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.¹²

1. What old guilts should our honorable Eddard have?

From Lyanna's own mouth (and one of the few things we learn from her own mouth), she took issue with Robert not keeping to one bed before they were even betrothed! How then, could she abide, be complicit in, and even encourage Rhaegar's infidelity. Rhaegar was not only betrothed, he was wed.

The whore's daughter has the same hair as the babe Ned discussed with Lyanna. Eddard is remembering Lyanna's disapproval of such philanderings. Jon Arryn was the one protecting hidden bastard-heirs, not Eddard Stark.

Ah, the promise. The promises Ned made to Lyanna as she lay dying. Would he tell her the truth? That he killed Arthur Dayne? Or would he ease her passing from this world by telling a lie that was not without honor? And, what is it that prompts Ned to recall the promises he made to Lyanna? Why, it was the request from this poor young girl. Ned knew Robert would not honor this girl, just as he knew he and Arthur could do nothing for Lyanna at that point.

"Good to me..." yeah right. Some good. What's more interesting is the promise Ned makes here. He doesn't promise to hide a hidden heir, he only promises that the child shall not go wanting. And what more could a desperate young mother as for? I have a feeling Lyanna was offered the same promise, and gave Ned a tremulous and sweet smile that cut the heart out of him...

Lusts? Wait a minute... What lusts? Rhaegar surely wasn't acting out of lust! He had just fulfilled the prophecy of tptwp with the birth of his son Aegon, and the dragon needs three heads. He's not acting out of lust, he's rising to the call of duty. Doesn't Ned really mean to ask why the gods fill men with the urge to elope and have secret weddings? ;) Joking of course, but it is a very interesting paragraph. And, at the very least, seems to confirm that Jon is a bastard. Are these "lusts" Eddard's or Robert's? Or both? Is Ned also recalling the lust of his fellow man of impeccable honor, Arthur Dayne? It's all conjecture, but I think you will agree that "lustful" would seem to be applicable to any of these men, save Rhaegar Targaryen.

The wheels are turning in Ned's head, slower than Petyr's to be sure, but they are turning. In pondering the lusts of men, he asks Petyr how many bastards the king has, which, of course, isn't all that different from being considerate of the young freckled girl with a babe in arms, and wondering how many more unfortunate girls like her there are. We know there are many, and Petyr tells of a few.

Thus, the reasons Ned hid Jon.

Because Jon Arryn was in the business of protecting the king's only heirs. Funny that Ned doesn't make that connection if he were in fact doing the same thing.

Hmm.... "blurt out that the sun rises in the east..." It's an interesting choice of quip here from GRRM. The sun of dawn rises in the east. The sword of the morning is the rising sun of Dawn. Dawn of the Day=Dayne. Natural fire, rather than Valyrian. Jon doesn't feel right holding Longclaw. It isn't his father's sword, after all. ;)

Another damning choice of words. Regardless of the other times Ned recalls Rhaegar, and the various ways the faithful have attempted to explain-away this anomaly, it remains a ponderous statement if Rhaegar was indeed Jon's father. I think the whole chapter removes Rhaegar from the discussion, and this is but one more reason to do so (for myself).

Rhaegar was next in line, and would now sit the IT if Eddard had not aided in usurping the dragonlords, and planted his drunken, lustful best friend there instead. Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face. He wondered if Rhaegar was lustful. He wondered if Rhaegar strayed and took his pleasure from multiple beds. He wondered if Rhaegar fathered bastards like Robert...

Somehow, he thought not.

1-5. That's an interesting interpretation, but - are you suggesting that Lyanna actually eloped and had a baby with Dayne, and somehow Rhaegar was framed for it all? I could use some more hints from elsewhere from the story before I start considering that likely.

6. Even if Rhaegar wasn't a typically lustful man, if he did knock Lyanna up, what should Ned think his motivation was? Secret plans to fulfill a prophecy and save the world? Nah, Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoB&L, he abducted her (or whatever really happened) and sired a child on her - the obvious conclusion, without access to privileged information, is that R lusted after L.

In fact, even the fact that the first time he thought of him in years followed from thinking of bastards, Lyanna, and Jon, kind of places him with them, with family. Yes, in theory, Ned could have ended up thinking of him as the king-who-could have-been in contrast to Bob, the obviously lustful king who replaced him (there _was_ some of that flavour in the text), but being so caught up in family business, it seems unlikely to me it was the main factor.

7-9. I don't think Ned was even thinking of those kids as Robert's heirs at the point. The penny only dropped much later on that (when Sansa blurted out Joff looks nothing like his 'father'). All he would have seen is come poor bastards in danger from Cersei if she find out about them.

I'm not too attached to RLJ, and definitely not buying into the Jon=rightful heir to the IT version, but I don't think this chapter disproves the theory. EDIT: to take out unfinished sentence, and also to clarify that it's the basic RLJ that the chapter doesn't disprove, it pretty much places Jon as a bastard so definitely no rightful heir there...

Qhorin in my mind could very well know that the story is false. He might also have additional knowledge as to why Mance left the wall and could even believe in his mission. Not something you would want to share with unbelieving NW members... This might also explain why Qhorin was so keen to take Jon with him on his mission.

As I said, I'm not ruling it out. I just think it's extremely unlikely that even Martin can pull it off in a way that doesn't leave me scratching my head, given that conversation between Qhorin/Jon.