A Dance with Dragons Release Discussion

[youper]

Hi all. My latest thoughts on this subject. First George is great, and the books (including Feast) are great.

I used to be frustrated by these delays.

But I have now come to the conclusion that these books will not be done for a long time. It will be at least another decade (maybe more).

So you should decide if you are willing to wait or not. Personally I am willing to wait, but I will not delude myself that this will be over in any reasonable length of time.

[Lupigis]

I'm afraid he doesn't update his website regarding ASOIAF because he has nothing to say. No progress :cry:

That's certainly possible. I'm reserving judgement until after Boskone. If GRRM doesn't say anything about his progress during the con, not even at his reading on Saturday, then I'll settle in for a very long wait. However, I still hope he'll throw some kind of bone for the fans. Time will tell...

[Sword of the Morning]

It's funny how the fans who criticise him seem to be the most crazed for his work yet have the least appriciation for it. If it's that much apart of your life then you should be able to truly appriciate how great this series is, which is IMO a masterpiece. Those things take time to produce if it's not i'd really wished he'd have taken more time with ADWD to meet the standards he has so far or possibly exceed them. Michelangelo wasn't given a set time and date that he need the Sistine Chapel and wasnt run down for not meeting a quota every day or month but took what he needed which was 40 years, Yet anyone can look at that today and know how amazing it is espically compared to all the crap buildings built on schedule with these constraits today. AND if you don't think Geogre's work is at that level then it reallly shouldn't be the be all and end all that gives meaning to a portion of your life and you can find millions of substitutes for it to pass the time till you can casually return to the series.

There should be a direct relation in respect for the series including the author and fandimonium in the indevidual for the books. So if it takes 5 more years for ADWD and 15 to finish that's the price for greatness.

Let's not be silly.

First, George's work isn't remotely in the same class as something of the stature of Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel. To suggest it is to be simply ridiculous. He should be embarrassed to even be compared to Tolkien let alone Michelangelo. That's laughable. You're entitled to your opinion of course just as I'm entitled to ridiculing it.

So some perspective please. A Song of Ice and Fire is a rip roaring good yarn and one of the better fantasy epics to come out in a while but that's it. And it's quite frankly fallen on hard times and lost quite a bit of lustre with me. I won't rehash the specifics of what Feast for Crows really is as Werthead has given an excellent summary of it but suffice to say it is easily the worst of the series so far and with good reason once you understand the history of its writing, delays, and publications.

Also for God's sake, be realistic and understand that Martin is 57 yrs old. If he takes 15 years to finish this series, the man will be 73. Not unreasonable certainly but also not something to take for granted . . . once again for reasons already discussed in detail on this thread. I'd say if it takes THAT long it's a coin flip whether he finishes the series or just dies.

The bottom line is that people who are "impatient" or "crazed" for his work should certainly not be pigeon-holed as being "unappreciative" of it. We are concerned and RIGHTLY SO about the progress Martin is making with it.

That's part of something called "discussion" and there are many on here who enjoy discussion OTHER than masturbating to Martin's greatness as the most magnificent writer/artist of all time.

It appears that your post has the following points:

1. If you really think Martin's work is a masterpiece . . . perhaps even as great as the Sistine Chapel!!!! (I do not) then you should be prepared to wait as long as it takes without uttering one work of complaint. It it takes 5 years so be it. If it takes 10 years so be it. If he dies and never finishes it . . . oh wait. Shiiiiiit.

2. If you DON'T like his work that much (and I do like it, I just don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread as some here apparently do) then you shouldn't care enough to worry about waiting for it, don't complain, and read something else or do something else to occupy your time since you obviously don't like Martin that much anyway.

Ummmm . . . what?? So you're telling me if I enjoy or like Martin, I should just accept the fact that he's been working on the same damn book and a half for close to 7 years (do your research and read this thread especially Werthead's and my posts to see how I got that number) while spending an increasingly large portion of time pimping out the franchise to incompetent licensees like Testors and milking the cash cow for all its worth and not bring that up as a legitimate point of discussion in a thread titled "A Dance with Dragons Release Discussion"???

I guess I should be happy for those of you who truly would rather read Ice Dragon, Wild Cards 1-100, Armageddon Rag, Dying of the Light, Windhaven, Shadow Twin, and Song for Lya than Dance with Dragons . . . or it's real name: Feast for Crows part II

Personally, I wish he'd get his ass in gear, focus a little, and finish the damn thing he naively thought would be published 2 months ago so he can get onto truly NEW writing in the Winds of Winter.

By the way, I DO have a million things to do besides talk about this but it doesn't take me all that long to come on here, read some discussion and contribute my thoughts to it. You seem to think that anybody who posts longer than a paragraph or two must be "crazed" which actually says more about YOUR abilities and priorities than anyone else's. For your information, typing a long post doesn't mean Song of Ice and Fire is a "huge part of my life." It just means it's very easy for me to to do.

Dennis

[redcandle17]

Sword of the Morning, I have read both Tolkien and GRRM, and despite GRRM's respect for Tolkien, he is superior in my opinion. I would never waste a dime on Tolkien but I've spent a lot on GRRM's books and their related products.

Writing is an art not an hourly wage job. It's not as simple as sitting down and pounding the keyboard. I understand why GRRM may not be able to finish the next book as early as he wants. Would you rather a crappy book within a couple of months or a masterpiece after several years?

[Sauron The Small]

I'd just like not to have to see that damn "look for na update in early january" again.

Is that so much to ask for?

[Sword of the Morning]

I think the key problem is that certain posters believe that GRRM should make ADWD his sole priority and worry about nothing else. He shouldn't travel, he shouldn't go to signings, he shouldn't go to model soldier fairs etc, whilst ignoring the fact that GRRM has always done this and the one time he did abandon many of these activities was during the writing of AFFC, and didn't seem to help. Some authors can work at an absolute, concentrated pace without outside distraction and produce good books, such as Robert Jordan or Peter F. Hamilton. Some authors can work at even faster pace whilst simultaneously writing short stories on the side and working on a TV series with no problem, such as Steven Erikson. However, GRRM can't. He needs other projects to stop him getting jaded with the series, and always has done since he was writing A Game of Thrones. To suggest that he adjust his writing practices now is simply a result of increasing awareness of his activities, through his not-a-blog. Suggesting that he alter the same writing technique that gave us A Storm of Swords in the writing of A Dance with Dragons seems somewhat pointless to me, as that is 'messing with the magic' as it could be simplistically put.

I think you did an excellent encapsulation of the issues that those of us who have been criticizing Martin have had over the past few years. I'd like to say that personally I'd NEVER thought that Martin threw those dates out maliciously or haphazardly just irresponsibly with no relation to reality.

I would also raise a concern bout the way Martin "creates his magic" so to speak. We definitely DO NOT want him reverting to his "old writing practices" when it comes to Song of Ice and Fire because there is solid factual basis to suggest that that would entail simply shelving the series for 7 or 8 years while he moves on to something else and then either returns to it or simply forgets about it.

THAT is the history of what he does.

Once again, the man writes short stories and screenplays. He's never done something of this magnitude before. I dare say if Song of Ice and Fire wasn't so damn successful and paying all the bills right now, he'd simply be tempted to put it aside in that desk drawer he keeps talking about right next to Pale Kings that sequel to Fevre Dream he'd been tossing around in his head or Avalon another story in his Future Earth universe he'd been meaning to write before Game of Thrones intruded and took over.

I also disagree when it comes to the writing of Game of Thrones through Storm of Swords. He had nowhere the amount of publicity and demand for his personal apperances before Storm catapaulted him to fame and fortune. The amount of time he dedicated to Song of Ice and Fire FOR SURE was greater than right now. Back then, who gave a fuck about Shadow Twins, Wild Cards, or Ice Dragon?? That was simply laughable. And sure as hell, nobody was interested in an HBO adaptation, a book of limited edition artwork, or some role-playing game based on his universe. He wasn't renovating his house either with all the distractions that entails. And it's quite unfortunate that he admits to being easily distracted. He can't work at optimum efficeincy in his "makeshift" office, he can't write when he travels, he can't write when there's water leaking into the room from heavy rains, etc, etc, etc. I do submit that right now he has MORE distractions than he EVER had when he was writing the first 3 books of Song of Ice and Fire and while these new distractions aren't the ONLY cause of the recent problems, they certainly don't help with an author who IS NOT A JORDAN, who is NOT A HAMILTON, etc.

The delays right now are a conglomeration of many, many things. When a short story author tries writing a multi-volume several thousand page epic fantasy, he's going to make mistakes and he's going to write himself into some corners. In going forward with the story after the high of Storm of Swords, Martin ran into that wall. Inspiration died and really difficult and hard work had to be done. That took 5 years and quite frankly we are still seeing some of the aftermaths of that problem in the delay with Dance with Dragons. For the first time in his career, this is also not something he can just shelve and walk away from. He is a New York Times Number One Bestselling Author now in the middle of a series which is a HUGE cash cow. Now he has responsibilities he must meet. And with increasing distractions from outside sources requiring continual "milking" of that cow, that does leave less time for writing.

Does working on other projects help or hinder Dance?? I don't know the answer to that question. I do know he did precious little of that when he was writing Game to Swords. It might not HURT but I'm not so sure it HELPS.

We also don't need to put any more pressure on poor George. The suits at Bantam and Voyager will MORE than do that job for us. I honestly doubt that will bring any more results out of Martin than anything else. When he's "feeling it" the guy writes some of the best prose I've ever read. Problem is in my opinion he hasn't been "feeling it" for close on to 7 years now and as far as I can tell there is NO WAY to MAKE HIM FEEL IT that exists. And that's pretty frustrating. I do think there is value in dissecting and analyzing WHY there's been so many problems lately and none of that in any way detracts from the work he's done and frankly none of that is meant to be personal. It's more cathartic to those of us who do it and while it doesn't help speed him along any, it make for interesting reading (at least for me) and makes the time go by a littlie faster. Certainly, I'm bored as hell of the regular on-topic discussions. That's been tapped out LONG, LONG, LONG ago. If I read one more post about Sandor being the gravedigger or who's going to be Cersei's champion in the trial by combat . . . .

I DO think it's naive to think that the ONLY thing affecting Martin's work is the natural difficulty of writing an epic fantasy. There ARE distractions that exist now that DID NOT EXIST earlier and they are SIGNIFICANT. The only thing I am not prepared to say is whether REMOVING those distractions will help his writer's block. And no, skipping a couple of toy soldier conventions and reducing the number of cons from 80,000 to 40 doesn't cut it as "removing distractions" in my book (pure hyperbole on my part but I think you get the idea). It'd be nice if he gave it a try for an extended period of time and not just when the editors were breathing down his neck the last year of a 5 year delay. Still once the hype machine gets rolling you have to feed it while the iron's hot. It's a balance that needs to be kept I suppose. I maintain though that nothing drives up the hype more than a new book in the series that is outstanding.

There are also the personal comments and insinuations of deliberate lying and misdirection that have been levelled against GRRM that are troublesome (the complaining about GRRM 'suddenly' working on the new Wild Cards book and Shadow Twin when he said several months ago he was working on the new Wild Cards book and Shadow Twin is a bit perplexing) and even more so the comments made (although not recently) about his health and weight (which he is addressing) which border on the crass. That this provokes a defensive reaction, particularly from those people who know George and call him a friend (not me - I've only met him briefly once at a signing, but certainly others), should be unsurprising.

I don't begrudge Martin milking the cow because he needs to do that for the security of himself and his loved ones. I'm sure he's lived at the poverty line for many, many years as a starving writer and I wish him all the financial success he can get with this run-away train. At the same time, I don't think there needs to be this over-defensiveness on the part of the apologists about what he is doing and why. He's selling out people and I think it is affecting his writing . . . that is something a LOT of people have a problem with on this forum and I don't understand why that should be. Certainly, he isn't any more or less of a sell out than other very successful writer like Rowling or Jordan but it's certainly amusing to see the same fans who eviscerate other authors for "selling out" passionately defend and deny that Martin does the same thing.

As for his weight and height, I was involved in that original post I believe and I would like to clarify my statement on that regard. This issue was raised as a direct rebuttal to people who state that Martin's work is so damn perfect that he should take AS LONG AS HE WANTS for each and every book and that TIME just doesn't matter if the result is good.

I disagreed with that because if he takes all the time in the world, there's a distinct possibility he might not finish which in my opinion would be disastrous.

True, any of us can die at any time as Mormont pointed out. I can die crossing the street tomorrow, you could have an undiagnosed thoracic aneurysm burst and exsanguinate on the spot, and Mormont could have a subarachnoid hemorrage go off in his head and be a vegetable for life. And Martin could happily go along until he's 100.

Yes, I know that can happen.

And Dance with Dragons could be done tomorrow too.

What are the odds?

The odds are that someone of Martin's current weight and age is going to die before people in better shape half his age.

Is that such a stretch or such a controversial point to bring up as a rebuttal of the "time has no meaning" argument?

Just ask Douglas Adams, Stephen King, David Gemmell, Robert Jordan, etc how much time means. Time means a lot especially when as an artist and a writer you are putting together a magnum opus. Time shouldn't be taken for granted . . . not by me at 31 let alone by someone at 57.

I don't remember how "crass" I sounded or how "crass" others sounded but I do my best to be as respectful as possible. There's nothing "crass" about stating the facts to support a position on a forum discussion group. I'm glad he's taking steps to remedy the situation and he shouldn't do that to finish a stupid series, he should do that for himself and his loved ones and living longer and better to finish Song of Ice and Fire is a secondary and fringe benefit at best.

I don't see why concern over Martin's health (as related to his weight) and age as related to the extraordinarily long amounts of time he is taking to finish this series should be such a taboo or offensive topic? To me it seems perfectly logical and straightforward why we would be concerned especially when someone posts some naive bullshit like "I don't care if he takes 10 years a book, as long as its good, it doesn't matter."

Maybe it's also my background as a physician that's made me more jaded and less sensitive. I don't know. I treat patients in my specialty with obstructive sleep apnea which is a medical condition that shortens your life span, increases your chances of high blood pressure and cardiac arrhythmias, and increases sudden death while asleep. It killed John Candy and it likely contributed to Reggie White's death as well. When I see people of George's weight come in, it's not my job to fuck around and dance around the topic like a virgin in the bedroom. I tell them straight up they are severely overweight, the problems that causes, and what is going to be needed to take care of it. Surgeries for these conditions are quite often ineffective and the only high success treatments aren't especially popular (sleeping with a mask over your face at night or putting a hole in your windpipe).

I guess even as a fan, I still think like a physician and if I gave offense to anyone here by the way I talked about Martin's physical condition from the point of view of a clinician, then I apologize. I deal with a lot of bullshit constantly though whether it's smoking or drinking or eating and maybe I could have been more sensitive in my descriptions.

Still, why the hell would it be crass to talk about it on a forum in an on-topic thread when Martin doesn't even know what's been said? Apparently to some it was more offensive that these criticisims were being levelled at his weight and health when he WASN'T here to read them and defend them. Why??? To me, it would be MORE crass for a complete stranger to come up to him and tell him to his face that he was overweight and needed to watch that aspect of his health.

In short, while I apologize for the exact manner in which I raised the issue, I stand by my original statements and I stand by their relevance to the topic at hand which is that I don't care HOW brilliant this series is, if Martin fails to finish it then it would be a failure in my eyes and certainly a series I can not in good faith or conscience recommend to anyone else to read. I hesitate ALREADY in recommending it considering the glacial pace it's been written at currrently. I know I stopped recommending Jordan's Wheel of Time and will not do so until he finishes Memory of Light. In my mind, that would be irresponsible turning people onto epic fantasies that may have no end, no matter how good I think they are.

Notice how none of this shit is a topic of much discussion when talking about Scott Lynch: late twenties, volunteer firefighter, and ambitiously planning a 14 book series about Locke Lamora. He could die as easily as Martin but common sense dictates the unlikelihood of that happening and so we proceed accordingly.

[Sauron The Small]

Excellent post, Sword of the morning.

I agree, I have been staying away from the series untill late 2003. at which point I caved in to tempation, and it was worth it...

But at least he could say "Sorry guys, I'll not be able to complete ADWD before summer" or whatever...

[Sword of the Morning]

Sword of the Morning, I have read both Tolkien and GRRM, and despite GRRM's respect for Tolkien, he is superior in my opinion. I would never waste a dime on Tolkien but I've spent a lot on GRRM's books and their related products.

Writing is an art not an hourly wage job. It's not as simple as sitting down and pounding the keyboard. I understand why GRRM may not be able to finish the next book as early as he wants. Would you rather a crappy book within a couple of months or a masterpiece after several years?

You are entitled to your opinion of course but I cordially disagree and suspect many will as well including George RR Martin himself.

Still this is a thread about Martin and Dance with Dragons and not about the merits or weakness of Tolkien which are novels in and of themselves.

I realize writing is an art, that was never the point.

The point is that people who are frustrated at Martin's like of progress shouldn't be painted as unreasonable, obsessed, etc.

And if writing isn't an hourly wage job, it also follows that time does not necessarily correlate with quality. Martin's best work was written in 1/4 the time of his worst. And I would hardly call Feast for Crows a "masterpiece" regardless of the time I waited.

I would rather have a "good" piece of work finished than a "masterpiece" never realized. Which in my opinion isn't even an issue because I wouldn't characterize any of the books of Song of Ice and Fire as a masterpiece except possiblly Storm of Swords which was whipped out in case you were interested in about 18 months.

Right now we are seeing Martin take longer and longer to write what is in my opinion weaker and weaker work. Many will not agree with that statement and I know it is still early. But that is the sense that I am getting and reading straight through from Game of Thrones to Feast for Crows, it is just JARRING when I hit book 4. It sure as hell doesn't help that book 3 was Storm of Swords either.

I have no illusions about Dance with Dragons being a "masterpiece" when it comes out. I would be pleasantly surprised if it's even half as good as Storm . . . I just hope it's not the same quality as Feast.

Dennis

[Sauron The Small]

*clears throat*

Should have used gender neutral pronun, 3 AM, night shift...

[thomaswhigham]

You are entitled to your opinion of course but I cordially disagree and suspect many will as well including George RR Martin himself.

Still this is a thread about Martin and Dance with Dragons and not about the merits or weakness of Tolkien which are novels in and of themselves.

I realize writing is an art, that was never the point.

The point is that people who are frustrated at Martin's like of progress shouldn't be painted as unreasonable, obsessed, etc.

And if writing isn't an hourly wage job, it also follows that time does not necessarily correlate with quality. Martin's best work was written in 1/4 the time of his worst. And I would hardly call Feast for Crows a "masterpiece" regardless of the time I waited.

I would rather have a "good" piece of work finished than a "masterpiece" never realized. Which in my opinion isn't even an issue because I wouldn't characterize any of the books of Song of Ice and Fire as a masterpiece except possiblly Storm of Swords which was whipped out in case you were interested in about 18 months.

Right now we are seeing Martin take longer and longer to write what is in my opinion weaker and weaker work. Many will not agree with that statement and I know it is still early. But that is the sense that I am getting and reading straight through from Game of Thrones to Feast for Crows, it is just JARRING when I hit book 4. It sure as hell doesn't help that book 3 was Storm of Swords either.

I have no illusions about Dance with Dragons being a "masterpiece" when it comes out. I would be pleasantly surprised if it's even half as good as Storm . . . I just hope it's not the same quality as Feast.

Dennis

I like all your points and I respect the bitterness I detect within them because you have so cleverly hid them behind gratifyingly intellectual logic and that wonderfully clinical sense of reality. Especially the points about AFFC being inferior. It is, both in terms of the prose of the writing (although not so noticably), and in terms of relevance. Most of the new things I could have done without, seeing as how they don't even pertain to the most important characters in the novels.

ASOS was inspired, and AFFC was adequate (I see it as merely neccessary, mostly in Martin's mind, to connect his inspiration physically to where he sees it going).

The point that ASOS was written in 18 month's is especially damning.

Edit: however, the next book will be much better. AFFC "had to be done" to tell the whole story, but ADwD actually is the story

[Ecchi-Oni]

Would people give AFfC a rest. None of the Ice and Fire books are standalones, so reserve any judgement until the last book of series is published. Same peeve I have people bitching about Jordan... Try to read War and Peace as collection of 6 independent books, for some reason the people don't do that and treat the whole thing as one book. Same applies to Song of Ice and Fire and The Wheel of Time. THEY ARE MULTIVOLUME BOOKS. So just be patient and wait. Bitching solves nothing.

[Antonius Pius]

Would people give AFfC a rest. None of the Ice and Fire books are standalones, so reserve any judgement until the last book of series is published.

I love steak and mashed potatoes, but I can't say I disliked the peas that went with them?

Bitching solves nothing.

True enough.

I've reread AFFC two times now, and while I'm no longe as disappointed as I was after the first read, I still rate it below the first three books. Partly because of the missing pov's, which is a real blow, and partly because I read a lot of spoiler chapters and reviews from readings before the book came out. That really spoiled way too much for me, so I'm not doing that again.

The beef I have with AFFC itself is that I do not think the new storylines warranted so much screentime. Brienne's story could have been told in fewer chapters, the Ironborn chapters very much so, and Dorne as well, really. I liked some of the Dornish chapters well enough, but I doubt we really needed them all. Furthermore, I disliked the prophecy-angle towards Cersei's paranoia. I'd have liekd if better if she had gone insane all on her own because she simply is that crazy. The irony of her going insane Aerys-style would have been priceless; but this matter of wanting Rhaegar and MAggy the Frog is a bit too much for my taste.

Edit: what the hell happened to the font?@#!

Hmmm seems fine now...

[mormont]

The beef I have with AFFC itself is that I do not think the new storylines warranted so much screentime. Brienne's story could have been told in fewer chapters, the Ironborn chapters very much so, and Dorne as well, really. I liked some of the Dornish chapters well enough, but I doubt we really needed them all.

This isn't new to AFFC, though. We didn't really need all of the Arya chapters in both ACOK and ASOS, or the Sansa chapters either: even some of the Tyrion chapters are probably not strictly necessary. I liked them all well enough, but they could all have been told in fewer chapters IMO. Still, it was the author's feeling that these chapters were needed, so there they are.

Furthermore, I disliked the prophecy-angle towards Cersei's paranoia. I'd have liekd if better if she had gone insane all on her own because she simply is that crazy. The irony of her going insane Aerys-style would have been priceless; but this matter of wanting Rhaegar and MAggy the Frog is a bit too much for my taste.

I'd probably agree. I'm pretty much of the opinion the prophecy is something GRRM introduced to hurry matters along, and this is fair enough: even Aerys took over a decade to start losing it. Five years for Cersei to go nuts on her own is reasonable, but I think GRRM felt an immediate decline wouldn't work. The problem is the prophecy feels a little bit like forcing, because it's new and not foreshadowed. Having said that, the aspect relating to her death at the 'hands' of the valonqar has proved popular and sparked a lot of animated discussion on these boards and others, so it's a success in that regard.

[Antonius Pius]

This isn't new to AFFC, though. We didn't really need all of the Arya chapters in both ACOK and ASOS...

I guess you have a point. But people tend to notice or complain about it as of AFFC. I guess that's partly out of frustration for missing out on other favourite characters, or perhaps the difficulty of measuring up to the extremely high expectations after ASOS.

I'm pretty much of the opinion the prophecy is something GRRM introduced to hurry matters along...

I think maybe it simply shows in the end-product how much trouble GRRM had with getting it done, perhaps as opposed to how he wanted it in the first place. He did not call it "a bitch" for nothing.

On the whole, I think AFFC definitely grows on you after a re-read. It did with me.

[mormont]

I guess you have a point. But people tend to notice or complain about it as of AFFC. I guess that's partly out of frustration for missing out on other favourite characters, or perhaps the difficulty of measuring up to the extremely high expectations after ASOS.

Possibly. It is ironic that this is the reason I rate ASOS lower than AFFC, though - too many IMO extraneous chapters.

I think maybe it simply shows in the end-product how much trouble GRRM had with getting it done, perhaps as opposed to how he wanted it in the first place. He did not call it "a bitch" for nothing.

On the whole, I think AFFC definitely grows on you after a re-read. It did with me.

I liked it first time through - but I liked it better second time.

[Lupigis]

Well, as I hoped there was an update, propably posted hours before GRRM was leaving for Boskone. Not sure how to interpret it though.

I'm still writing. Certain storylines are going well. Others, not so much, but that's what rewriting is for, yes?

The rest of February GRRM will be travelling. Then he has March, April and three weeks of May until his next scheduled appearance. I don't think he'll be finished by then. With a bit of luck he might finish during the summer, so a late 2007 release is still possible, I suppose...

[Mad Queen]

For your information, typing a long post doesn't mean Song of Ice and Fire is a "huge part of my life." It just means it's very easy for me to to do.

I do believe that complaining must be very easy for you. You never wrote a post saying what you like about ASoIaF, so I conclude that you don't like it much, am I right? You had time to write a 10 paragraph post criticizing Martin but never posted your opinion on Jon's parentage. It's very easy for me to bash something that I don't like too. And if I didn't like ASoIaF much, I'd also be very frustrated that it's taking a long time for Martin to finish the series, because no one likes to wait under any circumstances. But the pleasure some of us get from reading his books is a lot bigger than the pain from waiting and we'd rather encourage Martin than complain.

[Dracosmith]

I could write a long dissertation in response to some of the things said, but I'll keep it straight and simple.

The guy has published over 4000 pages of ASoIaF in ten years. If he publishes ADwD next year that would bring him up to 5000+ pages in 11 years. For all the bitching, whining and moaning we all do that is damn good by ANY standard you could apply.

And maybe it isn't the Sistine Chapel but it's still art, and damn fine art at that. I echo Cybroleach's well made point on this fact. If you understand and appreciate that, you should be able to understand and appreciate it taking two or three years for him to finish the fifth book to the standards he wants. If you do not appreciate this series as a fine work of art, then you shouldn't be tripping about it taking 2 or 3 years.

Either way, it's my opinion that we should be patient at this point.

[Ran]

Uh. Yeah. Political rants can go elsewhere. More of that and this thread is closed.

[Calibandar]

If you go to George's site you'll see a new Ice and Fire update. It's long, but the only info pertaining to the book is:

I'm still writing. Certain storylines are going well. Others, not so much, but that's what rewriting is for, yes?

Which doesn't tell anyone anything; would have been cool if he at least gave us an idea of how far he is in terms of a percentage. I really, really hope it will be out in the Fall or at least by year's end, but somehow I think Adam's estimate of a Fall release is still too optimistic. But from past updates we know that George was eager to state that he was "on the final stretch" or "nearly home" and then it still took him a while to actually complete it. But I see no such remarks here.

Personally I'm going to consider ADWD the end of the series. I'm finally going to see what happens to all those characters in the next stage of the series, finish ADWD which is going to kick ass, and then leave the series for what it is, for the time being. No more anticipation after that. Surw, when Winds of Winter comes out several years later I'll read it asap, but I am not going through another 3-4 year long wait again to see when WoW comes out. ADWD willl be the end for me.

My current estimate: George will finish writing ADWD in October/November 2007, giving us a Spring 2008 release. I hope I'm wrong.