Balon Greyjoys master plan

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Robbs master plan was suicide too.

If Tywin wins, Robb loses, if Balon wins, Robb loses, if Renly wins, Robb loses, if Stannis wins, Robb loses.

What a fool.

Well yes Robb was almost as stupid as Balon. I say almost because for all his faults Robb had more than thrice the number of men Balon had and controlled a lot more land so unlike Balon he could meaningfully hope to win. Furthermore he had at least some reasons to believe that Balon and/or Robin Arryn would join him. That said the whole King in the North thing was quite stupid.

[Ser Eric]

Robbs master plan was suicide too.

If Tywin wins, Robb loses, if Balon wins, Robb loses, if Renly wins, Robb loses, if Stannis wins, Robb loses.

What a fool.

I've said as much. It was foolish from both. The only difference is Robb did not do it willingly. He was raised to Kingship by his own lords. And he also had legitimate grievances unlike Balon who declared independence (Twice!) because he wanted the IB to continue to rape and pillage.

Well bending the knee and making a deal with Tywin would have brought him in a similar but better position to Roose Bolton- if Euron didn't FM him he didn't fall repeatedly from tall bridges. So yeah he might have been able to hold the North. Might. As long as he was smart enough to negotiate and bend the knee instead of screaming 'We do not sow.'

Agree. As soon as he declares independence he makes everyone his enemy. If he had bent the knee to Tywin AND then attacked the North he might have got something out of it (I still doubt it). At least ,it would have made sense. Declaring himself King of the North, doing Tywin's dirty work and then asking for an alliance for just....well retarded.

IMO though, he was screwed either way. He would never have taken the North regardless.

[John Doe]

The Boltons and Freys dealt with most of the Ironborn still present in the north so there was no need to deploy Lannister and Tyrell men.

The IT will only let Balon keep something if he bends the knee. He didn't instead going for independence while at the same time attacking the only other party fighting for independence. The situation after the first attacks on the North can be summed up as such- if Tywin wins, Balon loses, if Robb wins, Balon loses, if Renly wins, Balon loses, if Stannis wins, Balon loses, if all of them somehow lose then there's still a great chance of Balon losing unless the realm completely falls apart.

Balon's master plan was suicide.

With winter coming, there would not have been an army apart from the Boltons and Freys. The Tyrells couldn't care less about the North and the Lannisters did not have the ressources left to deal with them.

[Lee-Sensei]

There's certainly a fair amount of Stockholm Syndrome with Theon. Then again, it's kind of self-explanatory given how his father and family treated him before and after he came back. Even if Theon comes to grips with the reality of his father giving him away, his father still gave him away to save his own life. That kind of shatters the whole "protector and provider" image most kids attach to their parents. His older brothers were awful to him, and his sister is sympathetic just as often as critical. There just isn't much there. Shit he doesn't even go see his mom.

Then with Ned, he gets someone who more or less treats him like a member of the family, if one he can't or won't like. Beatings are reserved punishment, not wanton or drunken like the ones on Pyke. He's raised with the kids and considers Robb a friend. While the show didn't get the spirit the books portrayed, I was fine with it. He wanted to *be* a Stark but couldn't. I imagine his lamentation would have been similar if he had married Sansa before Ned died and Ned became his father-in-law.

1) The only ones that treated him badly before Ned took him hostage were his brothers... who were dead. Theon was taken by force.

2) Ned didn't treat him like family. Robb did, but no one else. We got inside the heads of most of the Starks and they didn't consider him family. I doubt it. he wanted to be a Greyjoy to as I saw it. By taking him away he was, Ned made it so he belonged nowhere. He was to much of a Stark to be a Greyjoy and to much of a Greyjoy to be a Stark.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

With winter coming, there would not have been an army apart from the Boltons and Freys. The Tyrells couldn't care less about the North and the Lannisters did not have the ressources left to deal with them.

Mace might be an idiot but even Renly knew an independent kingdom couldn't be tolerated. The Tyrell nonchalance on the North is merely due to having a lot more problems close to home. Once those are dealt with a hypothetical Ironborn kingdom would be dealt with if it hadn't already collapsed.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Mace might be an idiot but even Renly knew an independent kingdom couldn't be tolerated. The Tyrell nonchalance on the North is merely due to having a lot more problems close to home. Once those are dealt with a hypothetical Ironborn kingdom would be dealt with if it hadn't already collapsed.

if renly had taken kl then his problems are stannis and tywin

Theres no scenario he deals with them easily or without a lot of time passing and a huge fleet battle....leaving nothing left to reign on the ironborn with

[Sullen]

1. Cannot believe you are still arguing this point. Robb losing and Tywin winning was down to all sorts shit happening that no one could have predicted let alone a knob like Balon. No one could have predicted Stannis had a snatch baby up his sleeve or that Tyreels would combne their strength Lannisters beyond that. What is relevant is Tywin's position at the time and it was shit.

Shadow baby already happened by the time Balon makes his decision and attacks the North, and no, the consequent alliance between the Tyrells is not something that nobody expect, it was pretty much inevitable.

2. The title in only name. Renly wanted Robb to swear fealty to him which is all that matters i.e no independence.

Balon can bend the knee with the condition that he gets to keep his conquests, the North's west coast, bam, problem solved.

Renly is inconsequential though, he's dead by the time Balon crowns himself and attacks the North.

4. That makes no sense. Renly would have attacked both Robb and/or Balon in time after he had secured KL. And Renly had a massive fleet so holding Moat Calin was less than useless.

1) Renly is dead, so he doesn't matter.

2) Renly doesn't have a fleet, Redwyne does, and he's staying loyal to the Crown because the Lannisters hold his sons hostage.

3) You act as if Balon wouldn't bend the knee, while we specifically have a moment with him and Asha where he tells her that bending the knee when things look dire is the smart thing to do, there's nothing to suggest he wouldn't bend the knee if he sees the entirety of Westeros preparing to team up against him.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1) The only ones that treated him badly before Ned took him hostage were his brothers... who were dead. Theon was taken by force.

2) Ned didn't treat him like family. Robb did, but no one else. We got inside the heads of most of the Starks and they didn't consider him family. I doubt it. he wanted to be a Greyjoy to as I saw it. By taking him away he was, Ned made it so he belonged nowhere. He was to much of a Stark to be a Greyjoy and to much of a Greyjoy to be a Stark.

1) Yes and then his father gave him up to save his own life. If you read what I write, it helps with the logical flow of the argument. He effectively had no reason at all to like his family on Pyke, his mother excepted and she was crazy after Rodrik and Maron died.

2) I didn't say Ned treated him like family, I said more or less like family. He's raised lockstep with Robb and Jon. He learned from Rodrik and Luwin. He was both a ward and a prisoner. So Ned might not have treated him emotionally like family, he did effectively raise him similar to what he and Robert experienced in the Vale, what Adamm Marbrand experienced at CR, what Domeric did in the Vale, and what LF did at Riverrun. Note that the family doesn't have to like the ward. Hoster sure as fuck didn't like LF, but there is usually a sense of brotherhood or family between the children. Robb clearly thinks of him as a brother, and frankly the rest are really to young to relate to someone who's already 19, except maybe Sansa. Theon and Jon aren't entirely dissimilar, though Jon has closer relationships with his siblings and Ned. If Cat had to pick one, she might choose Theon (or kick them both out).

[Ser Eric]

Shadow baby already happened by the time Balon makes his decision and attacks the North, and no, the consequent alliance between the Tyrells is not something that nobody expect, it was pretty much inevitable.

No, it doesn't. When Balon tells Theon he does not mean to attack Lannisport Renly is alive and well. He had decided to attack the North long before Renly died. In fact even before Theon himself arrived. He'd been assembling ships for a time before Theon reached him. I mean he says in the very first Theon chapter that he wants a kingdom of his own.

Balon can bend the knee with the condition that he gets to keep his conquests, the North's west coast, bam, problem solved.

Except we know he didn't so the problem is not solved.

1) Renly is dead, so he doesn't matter.

2) Renly doesn't have a fleet, Redwyne does, and he's staying loyal to the Crown because the Lannisters hold his sons hostage.

3) You act as if Balon wouldn't bend the knee, while we specifically have a moment with him and Asha where he tells her that bending the knee when things look dire is the smart thing to do, there's nothing to suggest he wouldn't bend the knee if he sees the entirety of Westeros preparing to team up against him.

1) No, he isn't. When Balon firs states his intention Renly is alive.

2) If he wins he does have a fleet back which was point.

3 I act like that because after he conquered the North, he titled himself as a King. No sign of bending the knee at all.

[Ser Eric]

Stockholm syndrome is the most overused word on the forum.The effect of Stockholm syndrome on Theon is minimal.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Stockholm syndrome is the most overused word on the forum.The effect of Stockholm syndrome on Theon is minimal.

Well it's two words, and I seriously doubt that. I wouldn't say it's minimal but it is definitely not strictly SS. Theon's "old" family was pretty shitty to him, and he was a prisoner, but he wasn't treated like a prisoner by everyone around him. There was definitely a sense of kinship and belonging, if the kinship is only from Robb and the belonging comes from being included in everything with the Stark children.

[Ser Eric]

Well it's two words, and I seriously doubt that. I wouldn't say it's minimal but it is definitely not strictly SS. Theon's "old" family was pretty shitty to him, and he was a prisoner, but he wasn't treated like a prisoner by everyone around him. There was definitely a sense of kinship and belonging, if the kinship is only from Robb and the belonging comes from being included in everything with the Stark children.

Oh you pedant!

I think Theon quite blatantly cares about Robb for instance. Even in Feast, there are several times when it's apparent that he feels more kinship with WF than he does with his own father. He's the best written character in the series imo and dismissing his entire character arc as "Stockholm Syndrome" is ridiculous. I don't buy it in the least.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Yes and then his father gave him up to save his own life. If you read what I write, it helps with the logical flow of the argument. He effectively had no reason at all to like his family on Pyke, his mother excepted and she was crazy after Rodrik and Maron died.

2) I didn't say Ned treated him like family, I said more or less like family. He's raised lockstep with Robb and Jon. He learned from Rodrik and Luwin. He was both a ward and a prisoner. So Ned might not have treated him emotionally like family, he did effectively raise him similar to what he and Robert experienced in the Vale, what Adamm Marbrand experienced at CR, what Domeric did in the Vale, and what LF did at Riverrun. Note that the family doesn't have to like the ward. Hoster sure as fuck didn't like LF, but there is usually a sense of brotherhood or family between the children. Robb clearly thinks of him as a brother, and frankly the rest are really to young to relate to someone who's already 19, except maybe Sansa. Theon and Jon aren't entirely dissimilar, though Jon has closer relationships with his siblings and Ned. If Cat had to pick one, she might choose Theon (or kick them both out).

1) Nope. Balon had a gun to his head. He had no real choice. I read what you wrote. you're just objectively wrong. The truth is, aside from Robb he has no real reason to like the Starks. The Greyjoys are at least family. the Starks are no relation and didn't treat him exceptionally well.

2) Theon isn't comparable to those people. Robert and Ned got to go home and moved out when they were 16. Theon was stuck in Winterfell until the war. There's a reason for that. Ned stole half of his life.

[Beautiful Balon]

Mace might be an idiot but even Renly knew an independent kingdom couldn't be tolerated. The Tyrell nonchalance on the North is merely due to having a lot more problems close to home. Once those are dealt with a hypothetical Ironborn kingdom would be dealt with if it hadn't already collapsed.

Nah, Mace was pretty smart. Look at the North now, parts of it are in rebellion, The warden of the North needs to use a disgues to travel between it and the rest of the kingom. One of the strongest bannerman of the north is probably a cannibal and half the claimants to the north are unaccounted for. And all this effort is for a poor underpopulated backwater.

Mace Tyrell knew what's up

[Universal Sword Donor]

1) Nope. Balon had a gun to his head. He had no real choice. I read what you wrote. you're just objectively wrong. The truth is, aside from Robb he has no real reason to like the Starks. The Greyjoys are at least family. the Starks are no relation and didn't treat him exceptionally well.

2) Theon isn't comparable to those people. Robert and Ned got to go home and moved out when they were 16. Theon was stuck in Winterfell until the war. There's a reason for that. Ned stole half of his life.

1) No I can't be objectively wrong. Balon trades his son for his life. That is book canon. It doesn't matter if Balon had a gun to his head. We agree on his impending death if he rejects those terms.

2) He is a prisoner AND a ward. His presence is not his choice, but it is comparable in that he developed a brotherly relation to at least one of the people he lived with.......like LF, Marbrand, Domeric, Rob/Ned.

You are actually reading what I write correct? It seems like it, but it also seems like you're selectively ignoring the meat and cherry picking what to answer