Constructive criticism for D&D

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

D & D do not read online opinions about the show. I believe they stopped doing that at around season 2.

I can't really blame them either. Most of the criticism of the show has not been constructive criticism, but the product of very entitled arm-chair producers who have a very specific and highly unrealistic idea of what the show should be, and brook no allowance for any deviation of their idea. And people are perfectly willing to express their disapproval in a corrosive, sociopathic way. People have literally expressed joy at the thought of members of the cast and crew getting raped, tortured and/or murdered. Not just random posters either. I mean look at the Rant and Rave threads to get an idea of the form in which opinions are stated. Those people are not mentally healthy. Why would anyone listen to them?

Also, consider the success of the show. If I were running a show, and the response of a small demographic was that my show sucked and ruined the books because of deviations, and yet my show met with unprecedented critical and commercial success because of my approach, I wouldn't pay heed to those criticisms. And year after year Thrones is showered with glory. If my show was constantly on the top ten list of best shows of the year of most critics' list, regularly nominated or won prestigious awards for excellence, I wouldn't pay attention to what Random Internet Guy A or his like minded cohorts said either.

As far as criticisms of the nudity and sexual violence goes, I think D &D recognize the hypocritical and disingenuous nature of those criticisms. People claim that the nudity is gratuitous and meant for titilation - well, so is much of the violence. You don't actually need to show on-screen a knife going into a person's eye, or intestines flopping out of a person's belly. Shows that explore the theme of violence have been around for a long time, but you didn't see that sort of thing in '40's films. But people are way more accepting of violence over nudity. Also, the books are far more explicit and have more frequent scenes of sex and nudity. Sure, the show adds its own share of nudity, but it removes a ton of it from the books (Tyrion constantly fucking Shae in the books and Dany with one tit always hanging out in books two and parts of five, to name just two examples).

Speaking of more in the books, the books feature significantly more sexual violence. There was even a person who tabulated a comparative count of book versus show on sexual violence, and the books were several time higher in count. Yes, the show added some sequences of sexual violence not in the books, but again, the show removed many such sequences too.

Side point: something that bothers me. When people criticize the "added" rape scene of Dany and Drogo. Getting sold into slavery at 13 (or 16 in the show) is not going to result in a romantic lovemaking session with your owner just because he's considerate enough to play with your boobs first. And in the books Drogo still rapes Dany later on, as it's mentioned that he visits her on following nights and has her even when she doesn't want to have sex.

Anyway, the criticism of sexual violence. I don't think that the creators share the opinion that rape of women should have this sanctified position in storytelling that it must be treated with far more respect and care, than any other narrative device, period. Rape of women is a horrible thing, but so are the other forms of violence portrayed in this show. In our world there are numerous female victims of rape and they have their triggers, but there are numerous victims of all sorts of violence and horrible shit portrayed in movies and shows, and many of them have their triggers. And the argument that one affects perhaps more people than the others is a silly argument for special status. Just because heart disease is the number one killer doesn't mean we should focus only on that and just ignore other causes of death like cancer.

So criticisms like the above, that are hypocritical or totally bizarre and misinformed, would contribute to D & D just disregarding what people say online. And with them having trusted their instincts and it having paid off this far into the game, I don't see them changing.

Great post.

[WSmith84]

This is really just you putting your own modern mentality onto things. Why would rape be any better or worse to Jamie than killing, where is it suggested that he is ok with killing children but not ok with raping women? I don't see that at all in book or tv show. Jamie is maybe so likable that you imagine hes beyond raping anyone. But I don't see it. Plus in medieval times would rape be seen as the terrible crime it is now? I don't think so, it was pretty commonplace.

For what its worth, I don't think Jamie is a rapist either.

I didn't say that rape is better or worse than killing. Just that it is an evil thing that Jaime would not do. I certainly don't think that rape is worse than murdering an innocent child (and we know Jaime is prepared to do that). Evil people, at the end of the day, are still human and still have their own limits. Jaime was traumatised by the sounds of Aerys raping his wife and the fact that he was supposed to just stand there and let it happen. So I think it is entirely out of Jaime's character to rape somebody.

Now, George has mentioned that during the sept incident, Cersei was willing. If you feel that the scene wasn't written that way, fair enough. There is enough doubt there to have a good, honest debate about it and you are free to criticise George if you feel that the scene he wrote was actually a rape scene that he feels is consensual. I'm all for criticising the books where criticism is due (Feast and Dance have plenty to criticise, even if I still enjoyed them).

When I watched the sept scene on the show, I thought it was a rape. And this was back in the day when I loved the show and would do all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend its flaws. I was so shocked, knowing that it was a consensual scene (imo) in the books, that I rewatched it to see if I had misinterpreted it. It still appeared to be a rape. I later watched the episode with some Unsullied friends, and they all thought it was rape too. I later saw that the writers claimed that it was consensual. I cannot, for the life of me, see how anybody could watch that scene and come away with even the vaguest notion that it was consensual, if one didn't know that it was supposed to be. And I think it's perfectly fair to criticise the writers and directors for that.

I personally have no problem with rape (or any other sensitive issue) being portrayed, as long as it is done carefully and with respect. George mostly manages this, though I think there are times when he goes a bit too far. D&D on the other hand, seem to have little sensitivity when portraying rape. They used it as essentially scenery dressing at Craster's Keep. Same with torture; did we really need the amount of torture in S3 that we got? Sometimes, simple implication is more powerful and less gratuitous. I think that they should be criticised for this, and that they should listen.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Spend better 600 realistic faces

Stoke worth for a scene you complain about the budget the do that

Lighting is important when I'm looking at something I need to be able to see it or its a radio show not tv

Hire better writers I don't think d&d are terrible but they need to write less episodes someone compared how much they write to the main people from breaking bad the wire and another show and d&d write a lot more episodes.

If you're hiring other writers hire a woman or 2 because you're not great writing women

Be consistent please jaime was close to his book counterpart then he got to kl raped his sister and wants to continue hos father's legacy

Fire Dave hill the olly idea giver

[Last Horseman]

D & D do not read online opinions about the show. I believe they stopped doing that at around season 2.

I can't really blame them either. Most of the criticism of the show has not been constructive criticism, but the product of very entitled arm-chair producers who have a very specific and highly unrealistic idea of what the show should be, and brook no allowance for any deviation of their idea. And people are perfectly willing to express their disapproval in a corrosive, sociopathic way. People have literally expressed joy at the thought of members of the cast and crew getting raped, tortured and/or murdered. Not just random posters either. I mean look at the Rant and Rave threads to get an idea of the form in which opinions are stated. Those people are not mentally healthy. Why would anyone listen to them?

Also, consider the success of the show. If I were running a show, and the response of a small demographic was that my show sucked and ruined the books because of deviations, and yet my show met with unprecedented critical and commercial success because of my approach, I wouldn't pay heed to those criticisms. And year after year Thrones is showered with glory. If my show was constantly on the top ten list of best shows of the year of most critics' list, regularly nominated or won prestigious awards for excellence, I wouldn't pay attention to what Random Internet Guy A or his like minded cohorts said either.

As far as criticisms of the nudity and sexual violence goes, I think D &D recognize the hypocritical and disingenuous nature of those criticisms. People claim that the nudity is gratuitous and meant for titilation - well, so is much of the violence. You don't actually need to show on-screen a knife going into a person's eye, or intestines flopping out of a person's belly. Shows that explore the theme of violence have been around for a long time, but you didn't see that sort of thing in '40's films. But people are way more accepting of violence over nudity. Also, the books are far more explicit and have more frequent scenes of sex and nudity. Sure, the show adds its own share of nudity, but it removes a ton of it from the books (Tyrion constantly fucking Shae in the books and Dany with one tit always hanging out in books two and parts of five, to name just two examples).

Speaking of more in the books, the books feature significantly more sexual violence. There was even a person who tabulated a comparative count of book versus show on sexual violence, and the books were several time higher in count. Yes, the show added some sequences of sexual violence not in the books, but again, the show removed many such sequences too.

Side point: something that bothers me. When people criticize the "added" rape scene of Dany and Drogo. Getting sold into slavery at 13 (or 16 in the show) is not going to result in a romantic lovemaking session with your owner just because he's considerate enough to play with your boobs first. And in the books Drogo still rapes Dany later on, as it's mentioned that he visits her on following nights and has her even when she doesn't want to have sex.

Anyway, the criticism of sexual violence. I don't think that the creators share the opinion that rape of women should have this sanctified position in storytelling that it must be treated with far more respect and care, than any other narrative device, period. Rape of women is a horrible thing, but so are the other forms of violence portrayed in this show. In our world there are numerous female victims of rape and they have their triggers, but there are numerous victims of all sorts of violence and horrible shit portrayed in movies and shows, and many of them have their triggers. And the argument that one affects perhaps more people than the others is a silly argument for special status. Just because heart disease is the number one killer doesn't mean we should focus only on that and just ignore other causes of death like cancer.

So criticisms like the above, that are hypocritical or totally bizarre and misinformed, would contribute to D & D just disregarding what people say online. And with them having trusted their instincts and it having paid off this far into the game, I don't see them changing.

I can understand some of your arguments and actually liked the way you presented everything. But I found it difficult after you called people in the R&R thread mentally ill.

I can understand if people are senselessly bashing the show and calling for the rape of cast members (did this actually happen? I've never seen it, but if it did, then that's just way out of line) then feel free to call them out.

But saying that people who hang out in the R&R thread are deranged is too harsh, and a almost a stereotype. The big bad book snob who hates everything show and will insult all those who like it. I would say that's a majority. Remember, the R&R is a place to vent, where people who were angry and are angry with the direction of something they once loved going (in their eyes) sour. So it will be heat of the moment stuff, and not very helpful, and I mainly see it as having a laugh after pointing out faults. But calling everyone there fucked up in the head isn't cool.

Now, the criticism about rape isn't so much the rape itself, but the result of it. Sansa was supposed to be 'empowered' and become a strong independent woman, after being raped by a sociopath every night. No, they just wanted a shocking scene, not develop a character.

The rapes in the books show how awful humanity can be and how men in power treat rape. Now, the show did it so we could sympathise with Theon Greyjoy.

Cercei's rape destroyed Jamie's arc and now we have a worse character as a result. Again, just for a shock.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

I dont wanna ruin this thread by going on about the rapes, cos I think Humbles post is great and sums up my own feelings too. But I think when it comes to character development, maybe we should wait for the entire show to be over before we complain about who has developed and how. I agree that Sansas progress was slow, but it might be in the next season she becomes stronger as a result of the rape. I think it would be simply poor writing for her to wake up the next morning as a superwoman because she was assaulted.

And with Jamie, I think the 'rape' scene with him was more a problem with lack of build up and explanation. They didn't make enough of Cerceis rejection of him or his frustration with his loss of hand etc. I don't think it wrecks his character at all.

[Facebookless Man]

But I found it difficult after you called people in the R&R thread mentally ill.

I can understand if people are senselessly bashing the show and calling for the rape of cast members (did this actually happen?

No it did not. R&R is the last place on this forum where something like that would ever happen. The poster is a liar, and an absolutely disgusting, barrel-scraping one at that.

And that's just par for the course. Just putting a thin veneer of articulacy on top of the usual shit-flinging does not elevate this poster or his "arguments" above the usual. Nothing even worth considering here.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It's not like they're gonna read this (pfff, dat optimism), but what I think they really should correct because even non-readers are already criticizing the show quite heavily over it is their whole fixation/dependence on "shocking moments"

That's a surefire way to become a one-trick pony, to make twists that should be surprising feel stale (because of the overuse of such), and most importantly, to alienate viewers because of their shock value twists and transparent (and clunky) manipulation.

The show has a lot of other problems, but this, I think, is the worst

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

Sansa will never reach the point where she develops into someone who is extremely adept at playing "the game". She's a girly girl and there is nothing wrong with that. She is one of the more unique characters on the show in that she obviously doesn't have physical fighting skills, she's not calculating, cunning, or tough. She's a sweet girl who is thrown into this mess and who is trying to survive. I find her story arc one of the more interesting ones on the show because of this, because she's so different from any other character. And just because she doesn't have or doesn't develop any one of the above qualities, it doesn't mean she is weak or can't make progress. I felt like she was very heroic in season 5 and did make a lot of progress. She doesn't have much control over a lot of things that are happening to her, yet she did everything she could to escape. She is much stronger now than she was a couple of seasons ago.

I think people who were expecting any more from Sansa have a poor understanding of the character / the narrative of the show. It's a bit more complicated then Sansa all of a sudden turning into a master manipulator and out witting the Bolton's. The show is more complicated than that. And just because she was abused by Ramsey, it doesn't mean she was weak or took steps back.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Sansa will never reach the point where she develops into someone who is extremely adept at playing "the game". She's a girly girl and there is nothing wrong with that. She is one of the more unique characters on the show in that she obviously doesn't have physical fighting skills, she's not calculating, cunning, or tough. She's a sweet girl who is thrown into this mess and who is trying to survive. I find her story arc one of the more interesting ones on the show because of this, because she's so different from any other character. And just because she doesn't have or doesn't develop any one of the above qualities, it doesn't mean she is weak or can't make progress. I felt like she was very heroic in season 5 and did make a lot of progress. She doesn't have much control over a lot of things that are happening to her, yet she did everything she could to escape. She is much stronger now than she was a couple of seasons ago.

I think people who were expecting any more from Sansa have a poor understanding of the character / the narrative of the show. It's a bit more complicated then Sansa all of a sudden turning into a master manipulator and out witting the Bolton's. The show is more complicated than that. And just because she was abused by Ramsey, it doesn't mean she was weak or took steps back.

So why did she agree to marry the Bolton's and just throwing this out there book sansa is tough and fairly cunning

[LatrineDiggerBrian]

So why did she agree to marry the Bolton's and just throwing this out there book sansa is tough and fairly cunning

Because Baelish talked her into it under the guise that it would give them a better opportunity for revenge (and neither of them knew about Ramsey's exploits at the time). If you're talking about her actually saying yes at the wedding, she had no choice at that point.

I see her as getting much tougher / stronger on the show. She doesn't let Myranda intimidate her, she tries to manipulate Ramsey, she steals the lock pick right in front of him, etc. etc. But some of your guys expectations of what she should become are just ridiculous and are more in line with traditional story telling where the hero always wins in the end, than on Game of Thrones.

[Good Guy Garlan]

But some of your guys expectations of what she should become are just ridiculous and are more in line with traditional story telling where the hero always wins in the end, than on Game of Thrones.

Right? Silly us for expecting the heroine wouldn't get brutally raped

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Right? Silly us for expecting the heroine wouldn't get brutally raped

why is she a heroine? Are there any genuine heroes in the books or the show?

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

D & D do not read online opinions about the show. I believe they stopped doing that at around season 2.

I can't really blame them either. Most of the criticism of the show has not been constructive criticism, but the product of very entitled arm-chair producers who have a very specific and highly unrealistic idea of what the show should be, and brook no allowance for any deviation of their idea. And people are perfectly willing to express their disapproval in a corrosive, sociopathic way. People have literally expressed joy at the thought of members of the cast and crew getting raped, tortured and/or murdered. Not just random posters either. I mean look at the Rant and Rave threads to get an idea of the form in which opinions are stated. Those people are not mentally healthy. Why would anyone listen to them?

You characterization of what goes on in the Rant and Rave thread is incorrect 99 percent of the time for certain, and probably 100 percent of the time. I can't account for the whole of all of the threads, but I can say I have yet to see anyone say anything close to your charge. You are resorting to using hyperbole and ad hominem attacks against those with a position you disagree with, a sign of a weak debate position at best, which is likely coming from a place of pathos as opposed to logos (see, I can play armchair psychoanalyst too). At worst you are intentionally distorting facts to put your opposition on a back heel, which is a shitty thing to do and a weak way to try and 'win' an arguement on the interwebz.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Because Baelish talked her into it under the guise that it would give them a better opportunity for revenge (and neither of them knew about Ramsey's exploits at the time). If you're talking about her actually saying yes at the wedding, she had no choice at that point.

I see her as getting much tougher / stronger on the show. She doesn't let Myranda intimidate her, she tries to manipulate Ramsey, she steals the lock pick right in front of him, etc. etc. But some of your guys expectations of what she should become are just ridiculous and are more in line with traditional story telling where the hero always wins in the end, than on Game of Thrones.

But lf giving sansa to the Bolton's is all the dumb and what do you mean expectations are ridiculous id like logic and consistency not shocks for the sake of it. I also don't think got is that different look at the wire at it's ends the main criminal gets away with all his drug dealing money the corrupt lawyer keeps going on being corrupt only more famous earning more money. The main detective is kicked out of the police force along with his boss and the departments problems stay the same the newspaper continues to shrink a lying reporter wins a pulitzer and the port continues to die slowly the crap school remains crap several of the students are now on drugs or the run.

[Good Guy Garlan]

why is she a heroine? Are there any genuine heroes in the books or the show?

Heroine, main character, what difference does it even make?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Heroine, main character, what difference does it even make?

It makes a big difference. If you view sansa as some sort of Heroine then you expect she will triumph or have some sort of upturn in fortune or her character will evolve or follow some standard heroes story.

If she is like every other character in GoT however, she could just have a bunch of terrible stuff happen to her and then she dies.

[Bobby b's bobby]

It makes a big difference. If you view sansa as some sort of Heroine then you expect she will triumph or have some sort of upturn in fortune or her character will evolve or follow some standard heroes story.

If she is like every other character in GoT however, she could just have a bunch of terrible stuff happen to her and then she dies.

That's what got is no wonder I don't like it

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

That's what got is no wonder I don't like it

why are you here then

[Bobby b's bobby]

why are you here then

I like asoiaf and used to like got and the thread is constructive criticism so I'm doing some of that

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Well you know terrible stuff happens to people and then they die in the books as well right..