Why do people say it is the books fault season 5 was bad?

[Pyat>Daenerys]

I understand that. But it doesn't make it any less bad. Nor is it the fault of the books.

[Toth]

It still doesn't make it any less stupid when LF gives Sansa to the Boltons. I am not saying changes weren't needed. But this doesn't mean you get a free pass for bad dialogue, making almost all characters stupid and their characterization inconsistent. Justifiying it with ''It needed to be changed'' is just an excuse for failure.

 

Mmh... I hope I'm not leaning too much out of the window, but I don't think that was what he was saying. Let me try put it into different words:

 

The books itself were difficult to adapt, nobody can deny that. They introduce a truckload of new characters and all their storylines end in cliffhangers, so a completely faithful adaption would have been unfeasable. This is the only blame anyone ever can put onto the books. That's it. The point is made.

 

What they made with their own stories they made up then is something else entirely. Could they have made better? Of course they could have! Are they terrible writers? Look at Dorne! Look at their precious brothel scenes! Of course they are! So while yes, the need for changes was dictated by the way the books were written, it's no excuse for inconsistent characterizations, plot holes and outright offensive scenes. For all it's worth, with the exception of King's Landing and Meereen everything in Season 5 was pointless filler and badly scripted as well. That's their fault and nobody can convince me otherwise.

 

In my mind an "Only cuts, no additions" approach and the inclusion of the resolves coming with TWoW would have been much more entertaining than what we've got. Still, I would have been happy if the story they thought up had made sense.

[kissdbyfire]

It is not the books fault for the problems with Season 5. The problem lies with D & D themselves. They have inconsistent characterizations and very bad continuity in their own storyline. The best example of this was their Wall storyline. First they make the deviation that Tormund convinces Jon that he needs to go to Hardhome since the Wildlings would only be convinced that they could trust the Nightswatch if Jon himself made the offer. This was actually a good deviation. I and many other people enjoyed that episode. I gave it a 10.
 
So, they adapted the source material in a manner that worked better for TV. However, the next thing we know Jon and the Wildlings show up on the north side of the Wall. This was their first misstep in ruining the great decision to show Hardhome. The next step was having Thorne allow Jon and all the Wildlings through the Wall. So once Thorne has already let all the Wildlings through the Wall, then he decides to stab Jon, "For the watch."
 
So in the course of two episodes they have Thorne perform a 180 degree about face. Since all of this is deviation from the book, none of it (neither the good decision to show Hardhome, nor the bad decisions made after Jon and the Wildlings show up at the Wall) can be blamed on the books. D & D crapped all over their own storyline.

And let's not forget that later Tormund says Jon shouldn't have gone to HH. :rolleyes:

Characters will do and say whatever is needed at any given moment, with complete disregard to what they've done and said earlier or what they will do and say later.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Toth, it may be a matter of opinion but I happen to think that they added a hell of a lot to this season that was very successful. I still say 80% was great and a lot of that wasn't from the books

[JagLover]

If GRRM had written a single ACOK sized book that covered the same ground as AFFC/ADWD as far as the key characters went, and a bit beyond to offer some much needed plot resolution, then the blame would 100% be on D&D

 

He didn't so he shares the blame for the failings of S5.

[Toth]

Toth, it may be a matter of opinion but I happen to think that they added a hell of a lot to this season that was very successful. I still say 80% was great and a lot of that wasn't from the books

 

Then I haven't seen those. :laugh:

The last additions I unconditionally liked were in season 2, excluding some of the adaptional decisions like cutting characters I would have cut as well.

[JagLover]

Toth, it may be a matter of opinion but I happen to think that they added a hell of a lot to this season that was very successful. I still say 80% was great and a lot of that wasn't from the books

 

In terms of great new additions I can only think of Hardhome and Sansa hearing her Brothers were still alive.

 

Decent additions would be Arya taking out Trant and Jorah in the pits.

 

Are there any other examples?

[Cashless Society]

I think the biggest challenge is that D&D no longer have the next book and a detailed schematic of what's happening next. They know the main plot points of each character but not necessarily what's going to happen on the way so they have to think of ways to get characters where they need them to be.

This is the reason for a lot of the problems that occurred in season 5.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

Toth, it may be a matter of opinion but I happen to think that they added a hell of a lot to this season that was very successful. I still say 80% was great and a lot of that wasn't from the books

 

Personally I wouldn't consider stupid characters, bad dialogue and  inconsistent charaterization successful. But to each their own, I guess.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Well without going into too much detail. I think that anything involving Tyrion, jorah and dany was more entertaining than the books. The Sam storyline was quite similar but certainly no worse. I'd say apart from her having not much to do in the late season Briennes scenes were every entertaining and well written.
Really enjoyed all of the stannis plot even if it was a little rushed and had some silly moments.

Really the only things that stand out as truly bad this season were all of Dorne and red Mel getting her boobs out

[JagLover]

Well without going into too much detail. I think that anything involving Tyrion, jorah and dany was more entertaining than the books. The Sam storyline was quite similar but certainly no worse. I'd say apart from her having not much to do in the late season Briennes scenes were every entertaining and well written.
Really enjoyed all of the stannis plot even if it was a little rushed and had some silly moments.

Really the only things that stand out as truly bad this season were all of Dorne and red Mel getting her boobs out

Good point on Tyrion and Stannis. 

 

Tyrion Dany was a TV show only scene and was very entertaining.

 

Despite his fan club Stannis is a failed pretender with delusions of grandeur and I liked that they tidied up his storyline this season-rushed as you say though.  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Agree jag. I think what I like most about the series in comparison to the books is you actually feel like the story is moving forward. The books seem to be on an orange light.. Stalling for time and delaying any gratification. In the books all the major characters have not moved their storylines massively forward, despite being in two books. At least the show has less of that frustrating feeling of inertia.

That Tyrion met Dany was a massive plus, and their scenes were fantastic. It gave the series some momentum.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

@Channel4s-JonSnow

 

Let me try to explain why the show makes no sense.

 

The WF plotline. Why would LF marry Sansa to Ramsay? First Sansa is a wanted fugitive, suspected of murdering the king. Revealing her publicly makes LF a known traitor. This is a supposed mastermind, who should be working subtly, since he has no armies. Secondly Sansa is still married to Tyrion. So he can't just marry her to Ramsay. What does Littlefinger get out of this? The answer is absolutely nothing. He says his plan is for Stannis to win and save her. But he has no guarantee of Stannis's victory. Even if Stannis wins, what then? He can just keep Sansa to himself. Why doesn't LF write him a letter, proposing something? Why not wait until the battle is over? Much safer. And he risks just getting killed by the Boltons coming into WF. One is a RW conspirator, the other a brutal monster. Why do they let LF out of their castle? And apparently he gives Sansa a choice before coming to WF. And she says yes because of Revenge? A girl that's been held captive for more then a year jsut willingly goes into captivity again? Not to mention the ridiculous line of ''remeber what I've taught you''. What, exactly? How to manipulate vicious bastards into doing your bidding? I don't recall him teaching her that.

 

The Stannis storyline. Why did they portray him as a loving father the whole season, only for him to burn Shireen? I know the situation was supposed to be dire, but it really wasn't shown as such. In the books it is described far worse, and he refuses to burn random peasants. Not to mention Selyse is always standing menacingly near Melisandre and then she breaks at the burning and hangs herself? They completely reversed their characters in one episode. It would be more believable if Selyse burned her and Stannis would suicide. Ramsay's 20 good men are just a bad joke. There is no way for them to light all these fires simultaneously and then just dissapear with nobody noticing. And there is no way these fires would completely cripple Stanniis. And the pay off was a joke. The snow melted? Really? But Theon and Sansa can still jump on the snow somehow.

 

At the wall, it is implied Jon got stabbed because he admitted the wildlings. Why did they let them through the wall then? Just leave them outside when they came back from HH. Not to mention we have been shown the Hardhome battle, a massive fight against the  undead. Why doesn't nobody talk about it? Having a fight of this scope against the ultimate enemy should definitely change the way people think. Petty squabbles should become unimportant, and they would have to realize they need to work together.

 

Dorne. Ignoring the bad acting, bad dialouge and action scenes. Why would Jaime, a highborn go on a suicide stealth mission? Yes, there was no way of getting alive out of there. Or atleast it shouldn't be, but they got pardoned by Doran for no reason. Bronn (a sellsword) hits the prince of Dorne and his punishment is getting hit back? D&D sure love all those shocking scenes from the books, but when it comes to writing their own material it feels like I'm watching an Adam Sandler & Kevin James movie. This whole plotline was so silly, including that game the Sand Snakes were playing. Or the fact Jaime and Bronn simply sneak on the crown prince in the exact same time as the Sand Snakes arrive. Or that there were no guards, but all of a sudden 30 run into the camera. Or...

 

In kings landing the sparrow's are portrayed as downright terrorists.They are shown rampaging through KL. The Tyrells and Lannisters should be killing them, not playing trials with them. In the books they work because they have the smallfolk on their side. Their nature is helpful. When Margaery Tyrell gets taken, Mace moves his whole army from Storm's end to KL. The only reason Cersei goes on the walk of shame is because Kevan doesn't help her. In the show it looks like the militant can do whatever they want. D&D have essentially portrayed a coup de etat on the show. And everyone is just being helpless despite having actual armies at their disposal.

 

The Meeren plot. Why do random untrained nobles, armed with daggers and in robes kill the Unsullied in open battle? Dany talks about having a fair trial for one prisoner then just executes the next. Her marriage proposal to Hizdahr is really sudden and the reasoning is really bad. And when Tyrion and Dany meet it is bad. He basically trashtalks her and the next scene they are drining wine together? Why exactly? He just came and is a kinslayer and a dwarf. And everyone talks like he is the best guy at everything. A whore offered free sex to him, because he is so handsome and awesome. Varys randomly appears jut to randomly tell Tyrion how awesome he is. The pit scene is super cheesy. Dany/Hizdahr/Daario have this childish talk, while Tyrion sighs and appears wise and awesome again. Why does that fighter turns to Khaleesi, when he is about to kill Mormont, as if asking ''can I kill him?''. While Jorah just kills his opponents immediately? Why does nobody notice the sons of the harpy, but suddenly they are everywhere? The dragon gets spears thrown at him, while Dany just casually walks to him. And the rest is left behind when they fly off, surrounded by 30 or more sons. I wonder how they will survive... Next scene they are safely in the pyramid talking about RULING this city. Shouldn't the sons have killed them, or was there another point to their attack? They were literally surrounded by people who kill Unsullied for breakfast and just magically got away.

 

Arya's storyline is the only one which actually works on a basic level. It is the only storyline this season which can even be taken seriously. And GOT is suppsoed to be a drama not a comedy.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

@Channel4s-JonSnow

 

Let me try to explain why the show makes no sense.

 

The WF plotline. Why would LF marry Sansa to Ramsay? First Sansa is a wanted fugitive, suspected of murdering the king. Revealing her publicly makes LF a known traitor. This is a supposed mastermind, who should be working subtly, since he has no armies. Secondly Sansa is still married to Tyrion. So he can't just marry her to Ramsay. What does Littlefinger get out of this? The answer is absolutely nothing. He says his plan is for Stannis to win and save her. But he has no guarantee of Stannis's victory. Even if Stannis wins, what then? He can just keep Sansa to himself. Why not write him a letter, proposing something? Why not wait until the battle is over? Much safer. And he risks just getting killed by the Boltons coming into WF. One is a RW conspirator, the other a brutal monster. Why do they let LF out of their castle? And apparently he gives Sansa a choice before coming to WF. And she says yes because of Revenge? A girl that's been held captive for more then a year jsut willingly goes into captivity again? Not to mention the ridiculous line of ''remeber what I've taught you''. What, exactly? How to manipulate vicious bastards into doing your bidding? I don't recall him teaching her that.

 

The Stannis storyline. Why did they portray him as a loving father the whole season, only for him to burn Shireen? I know the situation was supposed to be dire, but it really wasn't shown as such. In the books it is described far worse, and he refuses to burn random peasants. Not to mention Selyse is always standing menacingly near Melisandre and then she breaks at the burning and hangs herself? They completely reversed their characters in one episode. It would be more believable if Selyse burned her and Stannis would suicide. Ramsay's 20 good men are just a bad joke. There is no way for them to light all these fires simultaneously and then just dissapear with nobody noticing. And there is no way these fires would completely cripple them. And the pay off was a joke. The snow melted? Really? But Theon and Sansa can still jump on the snow somehow.

 

At the wall, it is implied Jon got stabbed because he admitted the wildlings. Why did they let them through the wall then? Just leave them outside when they came back from HH. Not to mention we have been shown the Hardhome battle, a massive fight against the  undead. Why doesn't nobody talk about it? Having a fight of this scope against the ultimate enemy should definitely change the way people think. Petty squabbles should become unimportant, and they would have to realize they need to work together.

 

Dorne. Ignoring the bad acting, bad dialouge and action scenes. Why would Jaime, a highborn go on a suicide stealth mission? Yes, there was no way of getting alive out of there. Or atleast it shouldn't be, but they got pardoned by Doran for no reason. Bronn (a sellsword) hits the prince of Dorne and his punishment is getting hit back? D&D sure love all those shocking scenes from the books, but when it comes to writing their own material it feels like I'm watching an Adam Sandler & Kevin James movie. This whole plotline was so silly, including that game the Sand Snakes were playing. Or the fact Jaime and Bronn simply sneak on the crown prince in the exact same time as the Sand Snakes arrive. Or that there were no guards, but all of a sudden 30 run into the camera. Or...

 

In kings landing the sparrow's are portrayed as downright terrorists.They are shown rampaging through KL. The Tyrells and Lannisters should be killing them, not playing trials with them. In the books they work because they have the smallfolk on their side. Their nature is helpful. When Margaery Tyrell gets taken, Mace moves his whole army from Storm's end to KL. The only reason Cersei goes on the walk of shame is because Kevan doesn't help her. In the show it looks like the militant can do whatever they want. D&D have essentially portrayed a coup de etat on the show. And everyone is just being helpless despite having actual armies at their disposal.

 

The Meeren plot. Why do random untrained nobles, armed with daggers and in robes kill the Unsullied in open battle? Dany talks about having a fair trial for one prisoner then just executes the next. Her marriage proposal to Hizdahr is really sudden and the reasoning is really bad. And when Tyrion and Dany meet it is bad. He basically trashtalks her and the next scene they are drining wine together? Why exactly? He just came and is a kinslayer and a dwarf. And everyone talks like he is the best guy at everything. A whore offered free sex to him, because he is so handsome and awesome. Varys randomly appears jut to randomly tell Tyrion how awesome he is. The pit scene is super cheesy. Dany/Hizdahr/Daario have this childish talk, while Tyrion sighs and appears wise and awesome again. Why does that fighter turns to Khaleesi, when he is about to kill Mormont, as if asking ''can I kill him?''. While Jorah just kills his opponents immediately? Why does nobody notice the sons of the harpy, but suddenly they are everywhere? The dragon gets spears thrown at him, while Dany just casually walks to him. And the rest is left behind when they fly off, surrounded by 30 or more sons. I wonder how they will survive... Next scene they are safely in the pyramid talking about RULING this city. Shouldn't the sons have killed them, or was there another point to their attack? They were literally surrounded by people who kill Unsullied for breakfast and just magically got away.

 

Arya's storyline is the only one which actually works on a basic level. It is the only storyline this season which can even be taken seriously. And GOT is suppsoed to be a drama not a comedy.

seriously, put this in a separate thread if you wanna discuss certain plot points.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

Then put your thoughts about the show being good and improving things into another thread aswell.

 

EDIT: Also, the things mentioned above are bad. None of those things were in the books. Thus it's impossible to blame the books for the show's failings.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

yes I should. Its hard not to digress around here I will admit. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

We're not talking about whether it's considered abuse or not anyway, we're talking about whether he'd like it or not. And it's a totally accurate depiction for young teenage boy to enjoy having consensual sex with an uber hot older woman. Case closed.

I think Tommen was and is seduced by his own Queen wife. Both seem happy with the situation and I do not have a problem with that, it is just that Tommen was aged up for the sex - aftermath scene while keeping him feeble from the books and it makes him look really, really stupid. There is no doubt that Tommen was very happy with his wedding and beddings, Sansa on the other hand was clearly not, Ramsay yes, Not her. There is a world of difference between the Tommen and Sansa situations this year. In a modern day world, Tommen, depending on what age he actually is supposed to be playing would be either statutory rape or not.

 

Ironically, the Tommen and Sansa actors were and are still teenagers in real life and the Ramsay and Margeary actors were in their 30s, when they shot their scenes last season.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Then put your thoughts about the show being good and improving things into another thread aswell.
 
EDIT: Also, the things mentioned above are bad. None of those things were in the books. Thus it's impossible to blame the books for the show's failings.

The books aren't blameless d&d needed to change a lot because a lot of affc/adwd wouldn't have translated to tv well though I hated a lot of their choices.

[protar]

Agree jag. I think what I like most about the series in comparison to the books is you actually feel like the story is moving forward. The books seem to be on an orange light.. Stalling for time and delaying any gratification. In the books all the major characters have not moved their storylines massively forward, despite being in two books. At least the show has less of that frustrating feeling of inertia.

That Tyrion met Dany was a massive plus, and their scenes were fantastic. It gave the series some momentum.

 

I don't see how the story is much, if any further along in the show. Tyrion met Dany sure. To what end? They're still currently apart. The battle at Winterfell happened, but because the Bolton's won so handily, if anything that stagnates the plot. So this is an irrational praise of the show. Every other plot line ends at the same points as the books or arguably has made less progress. Jaime hasn't fallen out with Cersei, Arya is blind, Sam only just left for Old Town.

[protar]

Has nobody figured out Channel4 is a troll yet? Guy's stop feeding it.

 

Maybe he is. But some people - established posters with hundreds and thousands of posts - share many of his views. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt even if their opinions seem ridiculous. This is the internet after all.