Heresy 174

[Black Crow]

And, to beat more dead horses, while there are oddities in the cave of skulls, there are also things there that contradict the idea of the CotF leading the army of the slain, or even wanting an army of the slain lead on their behalf.

If the CotF control the wights, why the attack on Bran and co.? What's the point of a staged attack, when Bran is already helpless to leave the cave, when Bran already wants to explore his magic?

Why do you need wards against your own servants?

Why does Leaf give a speech where she seems to have resigned herself to the idea that the sun is setting on the CotF--that, as is inevitable in nature, their time has come and gone?

When Leaf says this of BR - "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know." - isn't this inconsistent with a context where he's punishing humanity on behalf of the CotF? Does this not, instead, suggest that what he does benefits both CotF and men alike?

Why is Bran admonished to not call back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain?


These questions, of course, are not unanswerable. The problem is, the answer is always the same. Why the wight attack? Deception. Why wards? Deception. Why does Leaf say this? She's lying. Why does Leaf say that? She's lying.

At a certain point, answering every flaw in a theory with "this is a lie, that's a lie, the history got that wrong" becomes an exercise in subjective preference.

 

I think if we knew half these answers we wouldn't be having this debate. As to the business of calling back the dead though I'd suggest that seeking to recall an individual is very different from raising mindless armies of wights, while at the same time the necessity for the admonishment indicates that they do have the power to raise the dead.

[Black Crow]

 

There is real potential with this idea from a narrative and aesthetic standpoint: Bran getting glimpses of what he may not be supposed to see mingling with what someone else, possibly Bloodraven, wants him to see, a sort of fractured, foggy sense of the real past cutting through the past of a very definite point of view.  We may have seen something like this when he sort of recoils at the final vision of the blood sacrifice before a weirwood in ADWD.  

 

Yes, very nicely put.

[Melifeather]

And, to beat more dead horses, while there are oddities in the cave of skulls, there are also things there that contradict the idea of the CotF leading the army of the slain, or even wanting an army of the slain lead on their behalf.

If the CotF control the wights, why the attack on Bran and co.? What's the point of a staged attack, when Bran is already helpless to leave the cave, when Bran already wants to explore his magic?

Why do you need wards against your own servants?

Why does Leaf give a speech where she seems to have resigned herself to the idea that the sun is setting on the CotF--that, as is inevitable in nature, their time has come and gone?

When Leaf says this of BR - "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know." - isn't this inconsistent with a context where he's punishing humanity on behalf of the CotF? Does this not, instead, suggest that what he does benefits both CotF and men alike?

Why is Bran admonished to not call back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain?


These questions, of course, are not unanswerable. The problem is, the answer is always the same. Why the wight attack? Deception. Why wards? Deception. Why does Leaf say this? She's lying. Why does Leaf say that? She's lying.

At a certain point, answering every flaw in a theory with "this is a lie, that's a lie, the history got that wrong" becomes an exercise in subjective preference.

 

I don't have theories for all of this, but it did cause me to think of something that I had thought about before and forgotten...

 

I think some of the answers on the "ice side" can be found by examining the "fire side". For instance Coldhands. He's not alive, but he's not a wight, and he's also not a white walker, so what is he? I think he's most like Beric Dondarrion. A human brought back to life via magic, but also something that can be killed again like a normal man. Which raises the question, who brought him back to life? We need an ice priest or priestess to say the rites. I suspect the Children or maybe even Bloodraven brought him back to life using magic. Why did Thoros of Myr bring Beric back to life? Thoros stumbled into it. He was giving Beric death rites and he was miraculously resurrected, but he later had a purpose as rooting out the truth via trials by combat to determine the guilt or innocence of people he and the members of the Brotherhood w/o Banners came upon. So does Coldhands serve a similar purpose rooting out those the ice side considers innocent?

 

 

As for the warding of the cave...magic is a sword with no hilt. Even if the Children are the source of the wights and/or white walkers, that doesn't mean that they aren't in danger from their own minions.

[Black Crow]

As for the warding of the cave...magic is a sword with no hilt. Even if the Children are the source of the wights and/or white walkers, that doesn't mean that they aren't in danger from their own minions.

 

As I've said before if you let guard dogs run loose in the yard its generally accounted a good idea to lock the front door.

[Lord Ravenstark]

As for the five years gap, the reason it was scrapped was because it was bad for storytelling.

As for Bran taking the Other's mantle, while it is a possibility I am simply not certain. It doesn't seem what Mr. Martin planned, it sounds odd not because Bran is purity of purity but because "greenseer and maester" must fight together, and we don't have reason to believe the Maesters hate life - except Marwyn, that is.

[Matthew.]

 

I think if we knew half these answers we wouldn't be having this debate.

They're only questions that need answering if the CotF are ultimately responsible for what's happening north of the Wall--and even then, only if they're controlling the Others, rather than it being a Pandora's Box situation where they've unleashed something that has grown out of their control.

Even operating under the basic assumption that creating WWs is something that's possible with the Singer's magic, that does not immediately lead one to the conclusion that the Singers are running the show. Varamyr can use the magic of the Singers; if Varamyr discovered he could create WWs and raise wights, would he be likely to use that on their behalf? Thus, as far as I'm concerned, our list of suspects is not limited to the CotF, not even remotely. Anyone capable of being born with the gifts of the Old Gods must be a suspect, under that scenario.

Indeed, the nature of Coldhands may point to a distinction. Raised by cold magic, yet riding a living elk, an elk he seems to honor when forced to butcher it for meat, and seemingly allowed to retain his sense of self. Compare this to the wights and WWs with their dead mounts, the implied thralldom and mindlessness of the wights, the wights tearing apart Sam and Gilly's dead horse with their bare hands, punching into it's guts. 

 

[wolfmaid7]

They're only questions that need answering if the CotF are ultimately responsible for what's happening north of the Wall--and even then, only if they're controlling the Others, rather than it being a Pandora's Box situation where they've unleashed something that has grown out of their control.

Even operating under the basic assumption that creating WWs is something that's possible with the Singer's magic, that does not immediately lead one to the conclusion that the Singers are running the show. Varamyr can use the magic of the Singers; if Varamyr discovered he could create WWs and raise wights, would he be likely to use that on their behalf? Thus, as far as I'm concerned, our list of suspects is not limited to the CotF, not even remotely. Anyone capable of being born with the gifts of the Old Gods must be a suspect, under that scenario.

Indeed, the nature of Coldhands may point to a distinction. Raised by cold magic, yet riding a living elk, an elk he seems to honor when forced to butcher it for meat, and seemingly allowed to retain his sense of self. Compare this to the wights and WWs with their dead mounts, the implied thralldom and mindlessness of the wights, the wights tearing apart Sam and Gilly's dead horse with their bare hands, punching into it's guts. 

 

Its what ive been saying all along we are looking for a kick ass skinchanger...top of the heap another one like BR.

[Melifeather]

Coldhands referred to Bloodraven as a friend, and Leaf's comment to Bran about not trying to call back the dead makes me wonder if Coldhands was a friend Bloodraven called back from the dead?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Its what ive been saying all along we are looking for a kick ass skinchanger...top of the heap another one like BR.

I've been swayed this way of late! I originally assumed the WW's were pissed off Canadians but ice magic beings made and led by a greenseer sounds a lil more realistic.  "Men would be wroth" and these things are "wrothed" off at something that much we can be sure of.

[Sly Wren]

As for the warding of the cave...magic is a sword with no hilt. Even if the Children are the source of the wights and/or white walkers, that doesn't mean that they aren't in danger from their own minions.

 

As I've said before if you let guard dogs run loose in the yard its generally accounted a good idea to lock the front door.

I had not really thought of his and am now feeling stupid. Fits if Leaf and Co. are controlling the wights or if opened the box and can no longer really control--like any other war. 

 

That being said--if they can't fully control everything, raises the question (among 5 billion others) of how on earth they shut it down. Or helped the Last Hero shut it down. Or whatever they did. Am guessing you'd have to pull the plug on the "initializing magic," not try to gain control of the big freezing car. But that's a guess--with mixed metaphors.

 

They're only questions that need answering if the CotF are ultimately responsible for what's happening north of the Wall--and even then, only if they're controlling the Others, rather than it being a Pandora's Box situation where they've unleashed something that has grown out of their control.

Even operating under the basic assumption that creating WWs is something that's possible with the Singer's magic, that does not immediately lead one to the conclusion that the Singers are running the show. Varamyr can use the magic of the Singers; if Varamyr discovered he could create WWs and raise wights, would he be likely to use that on their behalf? Thus, as far as I'm concerned, our list of suspects is not limited to the CotF, not even remotely. Anyone capable of being born with the gifts of the Old Gods must be a suspect, under that scenario.

Or a group--there's a group of Singers in roots in the cave. Not just BR. If you're trying to steer, let alone completely  control something as huge as the Long Night--seems like a group might be necessary. Especially since we haven't seen one solitary person in these books with the kind of power the Long Night would presumably take. 

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

I had not really thought of his and am now feeling stupid. Fits if Leaf and Co. are controlling the wights or if opened the box and can no longer really control--like any other war. 

 

Do you think they opened the "box" again or is this just leftover from the Long night 1.0

[WhitewolfStark]

No prob. I've actually tried to argue in the past here that, if anything, Bran might take the initiative, become a true King of Winter, and "steal" the wight horde for his own purposes--not necessarily because of any prompting from the CotF.

My reasoning is that, despite the offputting nature of the cave of skulls and BR, young Brandon himself might be the most sinister thing in those caves. He had begun using his powers amorally before he'd fallen in with CotF and Bloodraven; he's regularly stealing the body of a mentally handicapped man! That's fucked up! Imagine what his mindset might be as he explores weirnet, and possibly learns about the fate of his mother--remember, he doesn't actually know about the Red Wedding yet, other than the fact that he has sensed Robb and Grey Wind's deaths.

While there's a really good argument to be made for the idea that Bran doesn't know what he has gotten himself into with his new mentors, it may also be the case that his mentors don't know what they've gotten themselves into with their new apprentice. 

 

There's something else. In GRRM stories hive minds attempt to disunite man usually by bringing out their animal side and having them distrust or hate one another through suggestive dreams. This process happens during ACOK to Bran to the point where Bran snaps at Luwin that he hates the other children, and looks forward to his time inside Summer's mind (connecting with the animal side).

Considering Martin said the story originally belonged in his main universe (but has since moved to its own separate universe), that's likely where Bran's story and his main universe meet up originally.

So your idea that Bran is the most sinister thing in the caves likely rings true here, IMO.

[wolfmaid7]

Coldhands referred to Bloodraven as a friend, and Leaf's comment to Bran about not trying to call back the dead makes me wonder if Coldhands was a friend Bloodraven called back from the dead?

 

If we look at what CHs told Bran when queried about if its the 3EC he was taking them to he said " call him what you want " and proceeded to list wizard,dreamer,friend,last greenseer. It gave me the impression that he really didn't care  so as far as we know he could be a friend,enemy,bed fellow. It could be a case of the enemy of my enemy is a friend,or and enemy.

I've been swayed this way of late! I originally assumed the WW's were pissed off Canadians but ice magic beings made and led by a greenseer sounds a lil more realistic.  "Men would be wroth" and these things are "wrothed" off at something that much we can be sure of.

Hahahaha pissed off Canadians....They are the only one that have the juice and i'm sounding like a broken record here i know but the only dfference we are seeing is the status of what is being enthralled.

 

Live humans,birds,things that swim and mammals vs dead humans,birds,things in the water and mammals.That's the only difference so if greenseers can enthrall the living its going to be way more easier enthralling the dead.

[Sly Wren]

Do you think they opened the "box" again or is this just leftover from the Long night 1.0

Not sure. The continuing weird Winter/Summer cycles might hint at "leftover."

 

But either way--something got it going again. BC argues for rise in magic. Others (I think it was Matthew. , but I might be wrong) argue for human action causing the new changes. Can see either one working.

 

But whether someone is trying to use the leftovers or just cook a new Long Night--can see this as very hard to control. Thus, possibly the need for wards at the door of the cave. And maybe the reason no one's tried this in a very long while. Maybe.

[Summer Is Coming!]

Not sure. The continuing weird Winter/Summer cycles might hint at "leftover."

 

But either way--something got it going again. BC argues for rise in magic. Others (I think it was Matthew. , but I might be wrong) argue for human action causing the new changes. Can see either one working.

 

But whether someone is trying to use the leftovers or just cook a new Long Night--can see this as very hard to control. Thus, possibly the need for wards at the door of the cave. And maybe the reason no one's tried this in a very long while. Maybe.

 

Perhaps instead of it being enough time for the Others to grow and recoup their powers it is enough time for the Children and their greenseers to "forget" what happened last time they used this type of magic, and now somebody wants to try it out?  Not sure if this is possible with the weirnet, but perhaps the deep past is dim in those visions or the witness trees have been destroyed?

[Black Crow]

They're only questions that need answering if the CotF are ultimately responsible for what's happening north of the Wall--and even then, only if they're controlling the Others, rather than it being a Pandora's Box situation where they've unleashed something that has grown out of their control.

Even operating under the basic assumption that creating WWs is something that's possible with the Singer's magic, that does not immediately lead one to the conclusion that the Singers are running the show. Varamyr can use the magic of the Singers; if Varamyr discovered he could create WWs and raise wights, would he be likely to use that on their behalf? Thus, as far as I'm concerned, our list of suspects is not limited to the CotF, not even remotely. Anyone capable of being born with the gifts of the Old Gods must be a suspect, under that scenario.

Indeed, the nature of Coldhands may point to a distinction. Raised by cold magic, yet riding a living elk, an elk he seems to honor when forced to butcher it for meat, and seemingly allowed to retain his sense of self. Compare this to the wights and WWs with their dead mounts, the implied thralldom and mindlessness of the wights, the wights tearing apart Sam and Gilly's dead horse with their bare hands, punching into it's guts. 

 

 

I think its a question of resources and a major reason why I baulk at the suggestions Bloodraven is controlling everything in sight. When deploying magic on the scale we're seeing you need more than an individual behind it.

 

As to Coldhands, a mystery certainly and perhaps one destined to remain a mystery if he is no more than the Russian to Bloodraven's Kurtz, but if there is a deeper significance my first thought would be that Bran was right from the beginning and that he is a Green Man.

[TheSmallOther]

But again, this argument is tangential to the point I was making by quoting that article. The problem isn't "would Bran willingly lead wights and white walkers," the problem is how GRRM would make that work under the Five Year Gap.

The Others remain a big mystery - maybe the biggest mystery - of the series. We don't know who or what they are, why they're back, or what they want. So, purely from a storytelling perspective, you can't answer all of those questions off the page. You can't just jump in, five years later, with your story only half told, and just go "Oh, by the way, it was the CotF who created the white walkers, they're purging the land of Pact breakers, and Bran is leading the army of the slain. Alright, moving on..."

It makes no sense to reveal your big mystery with the story only half told, and to have that revelation come off the page. Thus, we can reasonably infer that, under GRRM's five year plan, we weren't just going to jump into Book 4 with Bran already the adversary of humanity. There would be a natural progression to that point, even with Bran already having five years of greenseeing under his belt--a scenario that necessarily requires Bran to have the resources of the greenseer available to him, yet to have somehow failed to notice that his allies are responsible for LN 1.0 and 2.0. I don't buy it.

 

Agree, Others are the ones who deserve to be the biggest mystery of the series. And what do we know about 'biggest mystery of the series'? We know GRRM keeps Howland Reed in his pocket just because he knows too much about 'biggest mystery'. So I'd assume we'll learn a lot about Others not only by venturing into the Land of Always Winter, not only from COTF and BR, but also when HR will be introduced.

 

P.S. From time to time I see people expecting Howland Reed to come out mainly to announce 'Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen first of his name'. I remember then GRRM's remark about the reasons why Howland Reed hasn't appeared yet and cringe. There is much more about HR than Jon's parentage.

 

 

[addicted to snow]

 

 

Agree, Others are the ones who deserve to be the biggest mystery of the series. And what do we know about 'biggest mystery of the series'? We know GRRM keeps Howland Reed in his pocket just because he knows too much about 'biggest mystery'. So I'd assume we'll learn a lot about Others not only by venturing into the Land of Always Winter, not only from COTF and BR, but also when HR will be introduced.

 

P.S. From time to time I see people expecting Howland Reed to come out mainly to announce 'Jon Snow is Jon Targaryen first of his name'. I remember then GRRM's remark about the reasons why Howland Reed hasn't appeared yet and cringe. There is much more about HR than Jon's parentage.

 

The reason that Howland Reed has not yet made it into the series (that we know of) is because he knows too much about FUTURE events... not PAST events... 

 

Howland has spent 10ish years hanging out with Jojen, who can see the future via his green dreams... Jojen's gift is very powerful & very useful... Both Jojen & Howland already know the future events are gonna go down... & based on the description of the new High Septon, he is definitely a Crannogman  & more than likely Howland Reed... He is building an army of swords & stars that will be in place to support AA... AA, by the way will be someone who was once very close to Howland...

[addicted to snow]

 

I think its a question of resources and a major reason why I baulk at the suggestions Bloodraven is controlling everything in sight. When deploying magic on the scale we're seeing you need more than an individual behind it.

 

As to Coldhands, a mystery certainly and perhaps one destined to remain a mystery if he is no more than the Russian to Bloodraven's Kurtz, but if there is a deeper significance my first thought would be that Bran was right from the beginning and that he is a Green Man.

A Green Man, Disguised as a deceased member of the Night's Watch... Brilliant!!!

[Armstark]

 

 

I always found it interesting that cotf waited for the Last Hero to come to them. According to Old Nan's tales, Others hate all living stuff (so it's pretty safe to assume they seek to destroy all living things). Yet we haven't heard about cotf fighting Others themselves (or Others killing children) , although it seems they had tools/weapons or knowledge how Others can be defeated. I see several options here, although all are quite speculative without much support from text:

• COTF don't care much about Others. E.g., they can go into their caves and survive cold.
• COTF would like to fight Others but they can't do it on their own and need help from men. We don't know much about their ways of fighting. Given their lack of physical strength, I'd expect them to fight with bows and arrows or something similar (and as we know, magic). Such weapons are good only if your enemies are not armored.
• COTF have changed their minds during  Long Night. I.e., they didn't see it as a threat initially but finally Last Hero convinced them to choose his side.

 

I always argue for a fourth option: The WWs are fundamentally men and not some independent race and thus the children were reluctant to fight them so as not to break the pact.

 

 

As to the current discussion I concur with Matthew. I don't think the children or Bloodraven are controlling the Others. I think the children are pretty much what they appear to be: an old, peaceful, dying race deeply in touch with nature. The suspicions about them arise largely because of the cave and its dreadful contents but I would argue that this is somewhat misleading. Nature is cruel and deadly sometimes and  are we readers really such children as to be swayed by skulls,bones and darkness? There is nothing inherently nefarious about it.

 

That being said I think there is of course some kind of connection/relationship between the children and the Others and I too think the answer lies in Bran's musing that you guys quoted multiple times already:  Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

This would have been true thousands of years ago as well. There is some evidence that there was cooperation between some parts of the children and some parts of the FM long before the Pact (particularly the Reeds, evidence already quoted upthread).

 

So my theory is that the Others who came in the Long Night were a creation of those human allies of the CoF. The WWs are created with knowledge shared by the CoF and by (former) friends of the CoF and yet I think now and then there are not on the same side.