Heresy 174

[Matthew.]

Yes! If he at that point in time believes and is convinced that all that is going on is neccessary for somehow saving the realm.Its all in how they package the deal.

 

Look at Bran's mindset when the Children were singing. Men wouldn't sing,men would swear a bloody vengence. He ind is ripe to be used as a tool.

No no no--that's not what I mean. I'm talking about from a storytelling point of view. The fact that the CotF are leading the Others, and Bran is meant to inherit that duty, is a major revelation. That means, under the five year gap plan, this revelation would either have come to Bran off the page, or Bran would have to have somehow had five years of time to look at the past, and spy through the trees, yet fail to discover that his own allies are leading the Others.

As a matter of timing, it doesn't make sense. It's too soon for that revelation, and the alternative requires an extreme degree of ignorance; not impossible, but not a particularly satisfying answer either. And, under Martin's own terms, Bran is one of the characters whose story would most lend itself to the five year gap.

[Melifeather]

I expect many secrets to be revealed and explained via Bran once he's settled. If the Children are implicit in the use of the Others, then I would expect that they hope to slowly spoonfeed that information to him. I wonder if Bloodraven can control what Bran sees through the weirnet? His first vision was through the weirwood at Winterfell and not a tree north of the Wall, which is kind of weird if you think about it.

[Tucu]

No no no--that's not what I mean. I'm talking about from a storytelling point of view. The fact that the CotF are leading the Others, and Bran is meant to inherit that duty, is a major revelation. That means, under the five year gap plan, this revelation would either have come to Bran off the page, or Bran would have to have somehow had five years of time to look at the past, and spy through the trees, yet fail to discover that his own allies are leading the Others.

As a matter of timing, it doesn't make sense. It's too soon for that revelation, and the alternative requires an extreme degree of ignorance; not impossible, but not a particularly satisfying answer either. And, under Martin's own terms, Bran is one of the characters whose story would most lend itself to the five year gap.

Bran would not be the first Brandon Stark to be heavily associated with ice and winter. We have Brandon the Builder and the Wall; or Brandon Ice Eyes that retook the Wolf's Den when "winds came howling from the North"  (did he arrive with the cold or the cold arrive with him?).

 

Bran could see the Stark history via the WeirNet and accept his heritage

[wolfmaid7]

No no no--that's not what I mean. I'm talking about from a storytelling point of view. The fact that the CotF are leading the Others, and Bran is meant to inherit that duty, is a major revelation. That means, under the five year gap plan, this revelation would either have come to Bran off the page, or Bran would have to have somehow had five years of time to look at the past, and spy through the trees, yet fail to discover that his own allies are leading the Others.

As a matter of timing, it doesn't make sense. It's too soon for that revelation, and the alternative requires an extreme degree of ignorance; not impossible, but not a particularly satisfying answer either. And, under Martin's own terms, Bran is one of the characters whose story would most lend itself to the five year gap.

Lol i only realized what you were saying afterwards...my bad.But if we look at it that way your right.

[Matthew.]

Lol i only realized what you were saying afterwards...my bad.But if we look at it that way your right.

No prob. I've actually tried to argue in the past here that, if anything, Bran might take the initiative, become a true King of Winter, and "steal" the wight horde for his own purposes--not necessarily because of any prompting from the CotF.

My reasoning is that, despite the offputting nature of the cave of skulls and BR, young Brandon himself might be the most sinister thing in those caves. He had begun using his powers amorally before he'd fallen in with CotF and Bloodraven; he's regularly stealing the body of a mentally handicapped man! That's fucked up! Imagine what his mindset might be as he explores weirnet, and possibly learns about the fate of his mother--remember, he doesn't actually know about the Red Wedding yet, other than the fact that he has sensed Robb and Grey Wind's deaths.

While there's a really good argument to be made for the idea that Bran doesn't know what he has gotten himself into with his new mentors, it may also be the case that his mentors don't know what they've gotten themselves into with their new apprentice. 

[Lord Ravenstark]

Quick question to Heretics: What is the extension of the power of a skinchanger? Can they impose their will even without actively slipping to the target's skin?

[wolfmaid7]

Quick question to Heretics: What is the extension of the power of a skinchanger? Can they impose their will even without actively slipping to the target's skin?

Yep....Varymur6skins is the biggest proof of that.There is a link that's always present that binds the familiar to the proxy.This is what i think is happening with the Wights and why i believe we are looking at a greenseer being in charge of them.

 

i'll pull the v6 texts give me a bit.Oh and there's one with Jon too i forgot.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Yep....Varymur6skins is the biggest proof of that.There is a link that's always present that binds the familiar to the proxy.This is what i think is happening with the Wights and why i believe we are looking at a greenseer being in charge of them.

 

i'll pull the v6 texts give me a bit.Oh and there's one with Jon too i forgot.

 

There is Bloodraven too, but it is really ambiguous if he is in fact binding all the things people claim he did. Anyway, do you think it goes to the level evita claims it goes? Bran controlling Theon and such?

[Black Crow]

No prob. I've actually tried to argue in the past here that, if anything, Bran might take the initiative, become a true King of Winter, and "steal" the wight horde for his own purposes--not necessarily because of any prompting from the CotF.

My reasoning is that, despite the offputting nature of the cave of skulls and BR, young Brandon himself might be the most sinister thing in those caves. He had begun using his powers amorally before he'd fallen in with CotF and Bloodraven; he's regularly stealing the body of a mentally handicapped man! That's fucked up! Imagine what his mindset might be as he explores weirnet, and possibly learns about the fate of his mother--remember, he doesn't actually know about the Red Wedding yet, other than the fact that he has sensed Robb and Grey Wind's deaths.

While there's a really good argument to be made for the idea that Bran doesn't know what he has gotten himself into with his new mentors, it may also be the case that his mentors don't know what they've gotten themselves into with their new apprentice. 

 

I wouldn't necessarily read the situation as Bran "stealing" the wights for his own nefarious purpose, but rather see him becoming a greenseer during that lost five year gap [which has effectively been replicated in the mummers' version] and emerging from it not as the saviour of all mankind but as an adversary. Wolfmaid rightly delights in reminding us of his unspoken comment, on Leaf's sob story about the end of days, that men would fight. Is that a sad elegy or is it a retort?

 

As I've been arguing for some time its probably misleading to focus on the white walkers [and their armies of the slain] as the enemy when in all probability they are only the tools of the children/singers. If convinced that the singers' cause is just, then Bran will see himself as aiding the singers, not their icy servants.

 

If we look at it in Westerosi terms, who was the real adversary; was it Gregor Clegane's "pets" and later the Bloody Mummers who ravaged the Riverlands - or was it Tywin Lannister?

 

Its also looking at the wording of the second part of the synopsis: "Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands."

 

That immediately identifies maester and greenseer as enemies. And this I think is what is being suggested. Bran, taking up magic for its own sake, becomes a greenseer [with or without a five year gap] and initially embraces the singers' cause as his own and emerges as an adversary, before undergoing his own redemption and turning against the tree-huggers and their eldritch servants.

[Sly Wren]

No prob. I've actually tried to argue in the past here that, if anything, Bran might take the initiative, become a true King of Winter, and "steal" the wight horde for his own purposes--not necessarily because of any prompting from the CotF.

My reasoning is that, despite the offputting nature of the cave of skulls and BR, young Brandon himself might be the most sinister thing in those caves. He had begun using his powers amorally before he'd fallen in with CotF and Bloodraven; he's regularly stealing the body of a mentally handicapped man! That's fucked up! Imagine what his mindset might be as he explores weirnet, and possibly learns about the fate of his mother--remember, he doesn't actually know about the Red Wedding yet, other than the fact that he has sensed Robb and Grey Wind's deaths.

While there's a really good argument to be made for the idea that Bran doesn't know what he has gotten himself into with his new mentors, it may also be the case that his mentors don't know what they've gotten themselves into with their new apprentice. 

Could see Bran taking his powers and the weirnet for his own purposes, yes. Rather like Arya using the info and tools she's been given in her own way for her own purposes. Despite the rules of the Kindly Man. Both Bran and Arya using the info they get in their respective underworlds for revenge--yes. That seems possible. And am wondering if it could backfire on Bran as well.

 

And agree with the bolded--they are already warning him about what to do and what not to do with his visions. Suggests they don't have full control. And he's got a LOT invested in his family/pack. As does Arya. Could see revenge and tie to family as making him into a problem--as with Arya and even her wolf pack. Even though I also think both Bran's and Arya's ties to family/pack could also be what brings them back.

 

I expect many secrets to be revealed and explained via Bran once he's settled. If the Children are implicit in the use of the Others, then I would expect that they hope to slowly spoonfeed that information to him. I wonder if Bloodraven can control what Bran sees through the weirnet? His first vision was through the weirwood at Winterfell and not a tree north of the Wall, which is kind of weird if you think about it.

I wonder that, too. Seems like BR might have some control--Bran was sent dreams. But once Bran's in the net? As I said above--they're already warning him about what he can and can't do in visions. At least leaves open the possibility that they may not be able to control his visions. . . 

[wolfmaid7]

 

There is Bloodraven too, but it is really ambiguous if he is in fact binding all the things people claim he did. Anyway, do you think it goes to the level evita claims it goes? Bran controlling Theon and such?

Here are the quotes:

 

"As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels. They had caught the scent as well. As he ran, he saw through their eyes too and glimpsed himself ahead."

 

 

I love this part as well there's something like this with Ghost when he's describing Shaggy and what many think is a unicorn and Nymeria in the RL where it seems because they are packmates he (Ghost) as alpha could see through their eyes.But another reason i like this is theconnection where on  occassion with the wights star blue eyes being characterized as them seeing.Tells me there's someone watching through them.
 

Then the pack was on them.

His one-eyed brother knocked the tooth-thrower back into a snowdrift and tore his throat out as

he struggled. His sister slipped behind the other male and took him from the rear. That left the female

and her pup for him.

 

 

This one's a bit more tactical read up a bit more,he's actually in Sly but seeing through all their eyes. 

Varamyr had lost control of his other beasts in the agony of the eagle’s death. His shadowcat had raced into the woods, whilst his snow bear turned her claws on those around her, ripping apart four men before falling to a spear.ADWD,Prologue

 

 

 

When you go back to the battle at CB when Stannis rolled in V6 was physically in the eagle only but when Mel cooked him his link and control of the others broke and they went haywire.The only ones afterwards he could relink with was his wolves.

"Hours later ,as the castle slept ,three of them paid a call to his cell(Rast)......Ghost lept up onto his chest .The Direwolf's eyes burned red as embers as his teeth nipped lightly at the soft skin of he  boy's throat,just enough to draw blood."Remember we know where you sleep,"Jon said softly.AGOT,pg270.

 

 

One of my favorite shot of Ghost and Jon and the level of control the intention was a threat and Jon's connection seemed to relay that to Ghost .Cus danm that could have gone so wrong.

 

 

As to the link,i don't know its next level stuff and totally possible for Bran to influence Theon,though i think its more extenal than internally controlling him.Along ofcourse with other guilt ridden emotions Theon may have at the time.

[Matthew.]

 

I wouldn't necessarily read the situation as Bran "stealing" the wights for his own nefarious purpose, but rather see him becoming a greenseer during that lost five year gap [which has effectively been replicated in the mummers' version] and emerging from it not as the saviour of all mankind but as an adversary. Wolfmaid rightly delights in reminding us of his unspoken comment, on Leaf's sob story about the end of days, that men would fight. Is that a sad elegy or is it a retort?

 

As I've been arguing for some time its probably misleading to focus on the white walkers [and their armies of the slain] as the enemy when in all probability they are only the tools of the children/singers. If convinced that the singers' cause is just, then Bran will see himself as aiding the singers, not their icy servants.

But again, this argument is tangential to the point I was making by quoting that article. The problem isn't "would Bran willingly lead wights and white walkers," the problem is how GRRM would make that work under the Five Year Gap.

The Others remain a big mystery - maybe the biggest mystery - of the series. We don't know who or what they are, why they're back, or what they want. So, purely from a storytelling perspective, you can't answer all of those questions off the page. You can't just jump in, five years later, with your story only half told, and just go "Oh, by the way, it was the CotF who created the white walkers, they're purging the land of Pact breakers, and Bran is leading the army of the slain. Alright, moving on..."

It makes no sense to reveal your big mystery with the story only half told, and to have that revelation come off the page. Thus, we can reasonably infer that, under GRRM's five year plan, we weren't just going to jump into Book 4 with Bran already the adversary of humanity. There would be a natural progression to that point, even with Bran already having five years of greenseeing under his belt--a scenario that necessarily requires Bran to have the resources of the greenseer available to him, yet to have somehow failed to notice that his allies are responsible for LN 1.0 and 2.0. I don't buy it.

[Sly Wren]

As I've been arguing for some time its probably misleading to focus on the white walkers [and their armies of the slain] as the enemy when in all probability they are only the tools of the children/singers. If convinced that the singers' cause is just, then Bran will see himself as aiding the singers, not their icy servants.

 

Its also looking at the wording of the second part of the synopsis: "Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands."

 

That immediately identifies maester and greenseer as enemies. And this I think is what is being suggested. Bran, taking up magic for its own sake, becomes a greenseer [with or without a five year gap] and initially embraces the singers' cause as his own and emerges as an adversary, before undergoing his own redemption and turning against the tree-huggers and their eldritch servants.

Yes--the bolded especially. This is where Bran's shorter greenseeing timespan in the books (vs. synopsis) could be a factor. How much can he learn and/or interpret properly? It's one thing if they can't control what he sees--but they can still tell him what it means. Color his interpretation/understanding with their own perspective. And since he's enjoying his "sight", may be more willing to trust. 

 

The "maester" part always makes me think of Sam, especially since they've met. Maybe Sam via candle-gram. Or some other conduit. But it's also what gives me hope. Sam is pretty solid (not a dig at his physique)--Bran already has a positive associate with him. Could see that as a way to keep Bran from Ender's Gaming the world.

[Melifeather]

No prob. I've actually tried to argue in the past here that, if anything, Bran might take the initiative, become a true King of Winter, and "steal" the wight horde for his own purposes--not necessarily because of any prompting from the CotF.

My reasoning is that, despite the offputting nature of the cave of skulls and BR, young Brandon himself might be the most sinister thing in those caves. He had begun using his powers amorally before he'd fallen in with CotF and Bloodraven; he's regularly stealing the body of a mentally handicapped man! That's fucked up! Imagine what his mindset might be as he explores weirnet, and possibly learns about the fate of his mother--remember, he doesn't actually know about the Red Wedding yet, other than the fact that he has sensed Robb and Grey Wind's deaths.

While there's a really good argument to be made for the idea that Bran doesn't know what he has gotten himself into with his new mentors, it may also be the case that his mentors don't know what they've gotten themselves into with their new apprentice. 

 

I agree. Bran has no boundaries because he's a child, and Black Crow has brought up the subject of child soldiers before...be it actual child soldiers like in Africa, or Lord of the Flies type boys gone wild, a child with the type of powers Bran will have could turn out to be very cruel.

 

Quick question to Heretics: What is the extension of the power of a skinchanger? Can they impose their will even without actively slipping to the target's skin?

 

There does seem to be some level of control once a warg or skinchanger has bonded with an animal. Varamyr's animals hated him, but remained under his control until he was burned while in the eagle, then the animals ran away terrified and I think we can assume in pain. They too must have felt what Varamyr felt.

[Melifeather]

 

 

Sorry, double post.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes--the bolded especially. This is where Bran's shorter greenseeing timespan in the books (vs. synopsis) could be a factor. How much can he learn and/or interpret properly? It's one thing if they can't control what he sees--but they can still tell him what it means. Color his interpretation/understanding with their own perspective. And since he's enjoying his "sight", may be more willing to trust. 

 

The "maester" part always makes me think of Sam, especially since they've met. Maybe Sam via candle-gram. Or some other conduit. But it's also what gives me hope. Sam is pretty solid (not a dig at his physique)--Bran already has a positive associate with him. Could see that as a way to keep Bran from Ender's Gaming the world.

 

The bolded....That's it right there and it is the reason why i think when BR was scoping them out through the Weirnet he chose Bran. The kid is smart  very very yes,but he's impulsive and rebellious. Unlike Jon(alot) and yes even Rickon( a little) he does not 'see' he looks but does not see. He has the sight but he doesn't have the art of seeing the world and the truth beneath it.Rickon and especially Jon have shown this.

 

I agree. Bran has no boundaries because he's a child, and Black Crow has brought up the subject of child soldiers before...be it actual child soldiers like in Africa, or Lord of the Flies type boys gone wild, a child with the type of powers Bran will have could turn out to be very cruel.

 

 

There does seem to be some level of control once a warg or skinchanger has bonded with an animal. Varamyr's animals hated him, but remained under his control until he was burned while in the eagle, then the animals ran away terrified and I think we can assume in pain. They too must have felt what Varamyr felt.

Bingo! One can understand why the Crow didn't want him to fly to high.

[Matthew.]

And, to beat more dead horses, while there are oddities in the cave of skulls, there are also things there that contradict the idea of the CotF leading the army of the slain, or even wanting an army of the slain lead on their behalf.

If the CotF control the wights, why the attack on Bran and co.? What's the point of a staged attack, when Bran is already helpless to leave the cave, when Bran already wants to explore his magic?

Why do you need wards against your own servants?

Why does Leaf give a speech where she seems to have resigned herself to the idea that the sun is setting on the CotF--that, as is inevitable in nature, their time has come and gone?

When Leaf says this of BR - "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know." - isn't this inconsistent with a context where he's punishing humanity on behalf of the CotF? Does this not, instead, suggest that what he does benefits both CotF and men alike?

Why is Bran admonished to not call back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain?


These questions, of course, are not unanswerable. The problem is, the answer is always the same. Why the wight attack? Deception. Why wards? Deception. Why does Leaf say this? She's lying. Why does Leaf say that? She's lying.

At a certain point, answering every flaw in a theory with "this is a lie, that's a lie, the history got that wrong" becomes an exercise in subjective preference.

[Black Crow]

But again, this argument is tangential to the point I was making by quoting that article. The problem isn't "would Bran willingly lead wights and white walkers," the problem is how GRRM would make that work under the Five Year Gap.

The Others remain a big mystery - maybe the biggest mystery - of the series. We don't know who or what they are, why they're back, or what they want. So, purely from a storytelling perspective, you can't answer all of those questions off the page. You can't just jump in, five years later, with your story only half told, and just go "Oh, by the way, it was the CotF who created the white walkers, they're purging the land of Pact breakers, and Bran is leading the army of the slain. Alright, moving on..."

It makes no sense to reveal your big mystery with the story only half told, and to have that revelation come off the page. Thus, we can reasonably infer that, under GRRM's five year plan, we weren't just going to jump into Book 4 with Bran already the adversary of humanity. There would be a natural progression to that point, even with Bran already having five years of greenseeing under his belt--a scenario that necessarily requires Bran to have the resources of the greenseer available to him, yet to have somehow failed to notice that his allies are responsible for LN 1.0 and 2.0. I don't buy it.

 

Not necessarily, it depends how Bran comes back into the story. I can quite easily see it being well into Winds of Winter before he reappears and if he is to first be an adversary before having a crisis of conscience or more likely family loyalty and coming out of the darkness to join the good guys then that needs time to develop in story-telling terms

[wolfmaid7]

And, to beat more dead horses, while there are oddities in the cave of skulls, there are also things there that contradict the idea of the CotF leading the army of the slain, or even wanting an army of the slain lead on their behalf.

If the CotF control the wights, why the attack on Bran and co.? What's the point of a staged attack, when Bran is already helpless to leave the cave, when Bran already wants to explore his magic?

Why do you need wards against your own servants?

Why does Leaf give a speech where she seems to have resigned herself to the idea that the sun is setting on the CotF--that, as is inevitable in nature, their time has come and gone?

When Leaf says this of BR - "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know." - isn't this inconsistent with a context where he's punishing humanity on behalf of the CotF? Does this not, instead, suggest that what he does benefits both CotF and men alike?

Why is Bran admonished to not call back the dead, if he's to lead an army of the slain?


These questions, of course, are not unanswerable. The problem is, the answer is always the same. Why the wight attack? Deception. Why wards? Deception. Why does Leaf say this? She's lying. Why does Leaf say that? She's lying.

At a certain point, answering every flaw in a theory with "this is a lie, that's a lie, the history got that wrong" becomes an exercise in subjectivity.

Well i know Black Crow and i differ on this but for me the answer as i said a few pages back is Cold hands.I believe there is an alliance happening and there is another collective out there working with them.

 

The fact that Leaf warned Bran about calling Ned back indicates that he has the power to do so....

Cold hands answer to Bran's query about BR is vey telling..'Call him what you will' and proceeded to rattle off a list of titles:Wizard,friend,dreamer last greenseer whatever...

 

A dead thing who also couldn't pass escorted Bran and Co to the cave.

 

They are either responsile and is just puling the wool over Bran's eyes or they are working with someone represented by CHs. I vote for the latter.

 

Someone else would have asked a lot of questions of BR....

 

First up would have been " hey he's dead,he couldn't cross the wards in this cave yet he helped us get here to you,so i guess what i'm saying is we go no further untill you answer some stuff."

 

But first and foremost on Bran's mind is "can you help me walk again...oh what i could fly ...sweeet."

[Summer Is Coming!]

I expect many secrets to be revealed and explained via Bran once he's settled. If the Children are implicit in the use of the Others, then I would expect that they hope to slowly spoonfeed that information to him. I wonder if Bloodraven can control what Bran sees through the weirnet? His first vision was through the weirwood at Winterfell and not a tree north of the Wall, which is kind of weird if you think about it.

 

There is real potential with this idea from a narrative and aesthetic standpoint: Bran getting glimpses of what he may not be supposed to see mingling with what someone else, possibly Bloodraven, wants him to see, a sort of fractured, foggy sense of the real past cutting through the past of a very definite point of view.  We may have seen something like this when he sort of recoils at the final vision of the blood sacrifice before a weirwood in ADWD.