Heresy 174

[Reposado]

The Starks themselves may not get caught in the crossfire, but their vassals (the source of their strength) are doomed if the Others herald the apocalypse. It's pretty unlikely that there'll be a time for wolves if the Northern armies have to suffer through the decimation of both the RW and the brunt of the Others' invasion. Same goes for the Riverlands.

 

the time for wolves is unlikely to extend to the stark bannermen. the wolves whose time it is likely the stark children, specifically those named in the synopsis, and their strength is not in their ability to call banners but in the individual abilities and strengths that they gained over the course of the series

 

 

 

Comets and stuff, you know. The time has come when magic is finally at it's strongest and they can beat a dead horse (or anyone else they need) with the biggest stick.

 

On the other hand, perhaps Others have read the prophecies about AA reborn and found out "it is the time to go outside and meet our old friend".

 

magic is not at it it's strongest. it is rising but has a lot of rising left to do. noone is currently building 700 foot wall ice walls, or raising hurricane proof castles or smashing landbridges, etc.  

[Voice]

@VOICE OF THE FIRST MEN

Posted Today, 11:20 AM

 

First of all, nice post SW :cheers: Forgive the late reply. I've been busy killing sables.

 

VOICE: We agree. I was only pointing out that what we have not seen from the cotf is the sense of revenge, or vengeance, that BC likes to suggest.

:cheers: Agreed--we haven't seen it yet. But they we also haven't heard them talk about helping the humans out with winter or walkers.

 

We haven't heard them talk about it, but we have seen one waving a torch, and doing precisely that. Remember it was Leaf who offered Bran and company refuge in the cave when they were attacked by wights. Sure, she didn't have fireball grenades, but she did welcome them as Guests - a courtesy held sacred in the north...

 

 

VOICE: I was speaking more to your idea that we have not yet seen what is behind the Others. And, that if we have, we may have been lulled into a false sense of security regarding it. It might even feel like home.  :devil:

Or like happy fairy tree-huggers who just sing songs, skipping though the forest--nothing to worry about. . . .  ;)

 

Mayhaps, but there is no evidence for that. We only have evidence to the contrary... of cooperation. Since the Pact, all the cotf have done is save the arse of mankind when things got real. We've seen none of the subversion or angst BC attributes them.

 

VOICE: There are always gaps, of course, but the story of the Last Hero seems pretty detailed to me. 12 companions. Aid from cotf. The Others could not stand against him. Long Night ends.

Yes--that's clear. Now--how did they help and why? That's a gap.

 

Indeed. A gap with clear implications for the end-game. We know, remember, that the Last Hero did not die after being rescued by the cotf (like Bran), with cold, implacable, blue-eyed hunters on his heels. Nope. He returned to the Wall empowered by the experience, and the Others could not stand against him, per the annals of Castle Black.

 

VOICE: You're right to be skeptical. Even I am, and it's my theory. LOL

I think there must have been a very real, and very terrible, reason why the cotf were willing to give away most of the continent to save their trees.

That's a thought--if they want the land back for something else. Yes, it works with your "antibodies" theory. But if the "land" is also a faith--we've seen fanatics multiple times. If the Children believe it's "right"--to protect the trees, and the Singers, and the earth that they are dwindling into--that could be interesting.

 

They don't seem to want anything. They seem more like survivors who have accepted their mortality. Yet, they aid Bran and company, driven by the arcane terms of the Pact... still aiding the Men who were their bane.

 

They may well be fanatics, but I've yet to see them kill when not for basic sustenance. Their magics seem to involve looking through the eyes of trees and animals, gaining perspective, and little else.

 

VOICE: Sure. But, you must admit that we've seen nothing in the cave that conflicts with Luwin's account, Old Nan's account, Bran's father's whimsical tales of the cotf, nor the WB's version.

Once your eyes are looking for monsters in the dark (thanks to Mel lol), it's hard not to see them. But, in the text, the cave-dwellers - BR and the cotf - have done nothing at all to warrant that label. If anything, their behavior only supports the interp of the Citadel, wetnurses, and crannogmen alike.

Depends on what you mean by contradict. The stories say they commune with nature and sing songs of earth, and have greenseers--etc. But the stories don't say HOW they do all of this. Or why--just the general outlines. Just like they don't say how or why the Children helped the Last Hero.

 

I think we're seeing the "how" in that cave. At least of the "Singing." And the frozen Singers in the tree roots--doesn't look like the happy stories of "singing the songs of the earth." It looks like hell. The "how" looks like hell.

 

I fully agree that I could be coloring all this with my own imagination--but Martin has been building up our imagination. With Nan's tales, Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree--all make the Children out to be shiny and helpful. They really may still be helpful. But I think what's in that cave is meant as a contrast to the stories--not shiny or pretty. No talk of "helpful." And Jojen awfully glum. Is it enough to condemn the Children? Absolutely not. Is it enough to make us asks questions going into the next book? Absolutely yes.

 

 

I agree. We are seeing the "how"... but the "how" doesn't seem like hell to me at all. Bran, like Samwell, is enjoying the archives. Just look at what we are doing right now. We are using the internet to access information from around the world. It's enjoyable. Bran likes it. Add to that the ability to fly within birds, and hunt within direwolves, and you have yourself online gaming. Bran just got xbox live! LOL

 

And, to your last paragraph, I agree we should wonder what all is going on in that cave, and if there are other caves. I take no exception with asking such questions, clearly, there is more to learn. I only take exception in the act of condemnation itself. Not that you have done that, but certain folks have. ;)

 

 

I noticed towards the end of Heresy 173, around pages 17-18, there was an interesting discussion about what we know regarding the Children of the Forest or Singers and if they (or some of them) may be controlling the walkers, and behind other parts of the rising winter.  In Arthur Machen's story "The Novel of the Black Seal" there is a statement regarding fairies that people in folk lore purposely used opposite descriptors for fairies characterizing them as nice, helpful, etc., because they were in reality so terrified of them.  If we apply the same type of characterization to the Children of the Forest, what "true" descriptions do we end up with? (This may have been discussed on Heresy before, but I did not see it).

 

On a second note, is there any mention or hint of the Children initiating the Old Gods' magic by planting or using weirwoods?  Do we know if the weirwoods preceded the Children or if the Children planted the trees in a dark Johnny Appleseed parallel to dark Narnia?  My brother has my copy of the World Book, so I can't reference that. 

 

Good stuff.

 

 

One other quick thing--Tucu brought this up on "The Others & Evil" thread over on General. Maybe he'll come back to Heresy and talk about it. If not: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/133255-the-others-evil-grrms-words/page-4

 

Don't know it that's come up on Heresy before--but the idea that humans make the monsters. That the Children taught the humans about the ravens and weirnet. That they use a human greenseer (at least the current ones do)--the idea that a weirnet polluted with human consciousness could create problems--has elements of antibodies, and of "humans make the monsters"--maybe.

 

I can dig it. Might have to check out that thread...

 

 

Is the story more complex than we can imagine at this point? Yes... But does that mean that CotF are behind the Others? No...

 

Looking at the 1993 Synopsis: "Maester & Greenseer must work as one" [in order to defeat the Others]... this makes it pretty clear that the CotF are not behind the Others...

 

To the first, well said. To the second, partially, but not completely. At least there is some textual and semicanonical support to make such a claim, whereas BC's assumption is not supported by canon or semicanon.

 

 

Emm.. White walkers most likely? They are the ones created by magic, i.e, not born in usual way.

 

Yup.

 

 

Yuup. The term itself of course didn't make it through to the eventual book, but we can still see them in the white walkers. Technically Craster's sons were originally born in the usual way but they were created in their present form by magic rather than allowed to grow and develop naturally.

 

Which makes it hard to swallow the mummer's farce, as the neverborn were most likely... never, born...

 

 

If men expansion has pushed the Weirnet into the verge of extinction, who better than a human greenseer to lead the resistance. I quoted this in the other thread:

"Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill"

 

It's an important passage. It both negates BC's "frenemies" theory, and explains current events, as well as past ones (the Pact, etc).

 

 

More likely the singers are fighting and Bran is being deceived once again

 

Why? Citation?

 

 

I think that the CoTF have given up after 12000 years. It is the humanized Weirnet that fights and kills.

 

Interesting interp. Mine isn't all that dissimilar.

 

 

1 I still find the sad, broken people in the cave of skulls unleashing the present day apocalypse to be...wholly unconvincing. It's a good fit for the original Long Night, but it's important to keep in mind that if we're going to assume that the ability to create soldiers of ice is possible within the magic of the CotF, then it's also possible for the FM that subsequently acquired the magic of the CotF. Which means it could be just about anybody up there raising soldiers of ice, for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with waging war on humanity.

2 Again, I have a serious issue with the timing. The idea that magic waxes and wanes of it's own accord, that it has "seasons," does not fit with what we've seen of eastern magic, whose death and rebirth can be linked to specific points in time, specific events. Fire had a long, long "waxing" with Valyria, and then a comparably short waning before its sudden return with Dany's pyre.

3 Unless Leaf and co. have as of yet unrevealed magic of their own, their apocalypse seems dependent on Bloodraven and Bran. With Bran, this is just barely possible--he's young and impressionable, and recent events with his family would give him good reason to want to unleash the Others on Westeros.

4 What fits a great deal less is that BR could be similarly tricked into betraying humanity. Why would BR care about the loss of lands, of Pact betrayals, of the great decline of the CotF? And do "the Others" really solve that in the long term? 

5 I agree with what was said up thread-- Maester and Greenseer joining hands does not fit a scenario where it's the CotF that must be stopped. Furthermore, the whole "Long Night > Last Hero begs for mercy > Pact" scenario fails to account for certain other legends that don't fit that picture, particularly the LH slaying Others with "dragonsteel," or the very notion of a Battle for the Dawn.

 

1 While I'm of the mind that it is a different form of magic being wielded by this different form of life, I agree with your point. We've seen that FM do indeed wield the magics of the cotf, just as the Last Hero sought to do.

 

2 There are greater timing issues. As I've said before, the Pact predates the Long Night. And, we've seen noting but cooperation since the Pact, rather than conflict, between FM and the cotf.

 

3 That certainly seems to be an accurate summary of the effort in that cave, to me.

 

4 Great point. And no, I don't see how the Others solve it at all. What makes BC's "frenemy" interpretation all the more convoluted, is that all the tales agree that the children of the forest helped the First Men in the fight against the Others. BC likes to italicize their effort, which is fine, but it certainly seems to over-complicate the story. The chronology itself is quite telling:

 

i. FM arrive, kill trees, fight with cotf...

ii. the cotf fight back, drop some hammers-maybe...

iii. the FM and cotf agree to the Pact...

iv. an age of cooperation begins, and FM adopt the gods of the cotf...

v. the long night falls...

vi. the Others come for the first time...

vii. the cotf aid the Last Hero...

viii. the long night ends

 

I don't see how anyone can contrive a motive for the cotf to instigate such an onslaught, after finally attaining peace with the FM.

 

5 Yup. Not only that, but the whole "Long Night > Last Hero begs for mercy > Pact" scenario is not the order of events as stated in canon.

[Voice]

Mankind broke the Pact.  

 

Really? In my copy of the books, the Pact was between First Men and the Children of the Forest. Giants were not a part of it. Andals were not a part of it. Rhoynar were not a part of it. The Freehold of Valyria was not a part of it.

 

In my copy of the books, the FM and cotf were had already found a cooperative balance, both politically, by forging of the Pact, and religiously, by keeping the old gods, by the time the Andals, Rhoynar, and Valyrians arrived in Westeros.

 

Do you have a citation that demonstrates either party present at the Isle of Faces, First Men or Singers, ever broke the terms of the Pact? Or, to put it more broadly, do you have a citation that demonstrates anyone, singer or man, who kept the old gods ever broke the terms of the Pact?

 

Again, we have nothing in the text to suggest that the terms of the Pact apply to groups who were not present on the Isle of Faces.

[Matthew.]

 

As to the why now, I think its down to the rise in magic. Whatever the process, breaking the arm, bringing down the long night and building the Wall must have taken hods and hods of magic. When the Andals came there was none left and so the children/singers got badly beaten. Now magic is rising again and they're coming back.

Perhaps, yet I don't feel this fully fits our picture of when magic has (and has not) been strong, and I believe that Quaithe's conversation with Dany when they're watching the fire-wielding street performer suggests alternatives. That, and the implicit suggestion of Marwyns "gray sheep" speech is that the influence and power of magic can be diminished by human action.

At the very least, we can say that, during a period where Westerosi magic seemed to wane - the post Andal era, when written records become far more common - Valyrian magic was chugging along just fine. We might look at that and say that it was a cycle-- Long Night (Ice is ascendant) > LN ends, Valryia subsequently arises (Fire is ascendant) > Doom > Modern day Planetos, the Others are stirring (Ice is Ascendant again). Except...that doesn't fit either. Fire didn't "sleep" for millenia, like Ice, it slept mere centuries.

Now, just as the Others are gearing up and the trees have eyes again, we also see that the glass candles are burning, dragons wake from stone, and the pyromancers can more easily create wildfire. Magic, all magic is becoming strong again--yet, in the period between the last LN and the current one, not all magic was weak.

---

With all of that in mind, I would suggest that LN 2.0 is not starting up because it's the proper "time" for magic to be strong, I would suggest that magic is strengthening because human choice has strengthened it. Just as Dany was willing to pay a terrible price in the East, someone - perhaps multiple someones - was willing to pay a terrible price north of the Wall. Craster is obvious, but I'd bet there's more going on than just his sacrifices. I would similarly suggest that the mother direwolf is the blood price that was paid to kick awake the Stark skinchanger gift.

Again, to use the Valyria comparison, the reason their magic remained strong was because their empire gave them a near endless supply of slaves--blood sacrifice fodder. On the other hand, the CotF didn't exhaust "magic," what they exhausted was their supply of sacrifices; the WB suggests they even paid their own young to break the Arm of Dorne, and for a people with low fertility who'd already been losing a war, they surely would have had limited options after that. 

Later, it's men - having adopted the Old Gods - that keep the magic going... for a time. Until the Andals, until the Seven gain prominence, until the Citadel begins exerted its "civilizing" influence, and magic fades south of the Wall as human sacrifice declines.

IMO, even if the CotF are the engineers of what's happening, it's only because they've found willing co-conspirators who will pay the proper blood tolls to aide what they're doing. And, even then, I think the ultimate goal is not revenge, nor the mass destruction of humanity.


EDIT, TL;DR: Oops, didn't really mean at the outset to write a wall of text. Short version: magic is strengthening in correlation with human sacrifice, and perhaps the renewal of old blood magic covenants (Targaryens with the dragons, Starks with the weirwood, etc.)

[Voice]

True and the same may be said with bells on if we look for someone else entirely, not yet introduced to us.

 

Unless those as of yet introduced Ancient Others are the Ancient Selves, of First Men and House Stark.

 

BtB=LH=NK

 

 

I'll admit up front that this is just pure gut feeling, but I suspect that some of the things we don't yet know about Robert's Rebellion - and not just the stuff that pertains to a certain character's parentage - is going to end up somehow being important to what's going on north of the Wall. There are many things we don't know about Howland Reed, about the motives of the Daynes, about Rickard and Arryn's conspiracy. I just can't shake the feeling that, the fact that GRRM's original intended title for A Dream of Spring was "A Time for Wolves" may indicate that the Others, and their awakening, was to be part of House Stark's restoration and revenge, rather than the broader destruction of humanity.

 

You're not alone. And you're spot-on with that last sentence.

[Black Crow]

The Starks themselves may not get caught in the crossfire, but their vassals (the source of their strength) are doomed if the Others herald the apocalypse. It's pretty unlikely that there'll be a time for wolves if the Northern armies have to suffer through the decimation of both the RW and the brunt of the Others' invasion. Same goes for the Riverlands.

 

Up to a point, first insofar that we really don't know that an invasion is underway or intended, by which I mean the seizing and holding of land. Whilst the threat is unquestionably there we don't know whether that scenario is going on or whether it is a matter of inflicting grievous bodily harm with the intention of bringing about some other purpose.

 

Secondly, whilst there will undoubtedly be some collateral damage involved I think that this may ultimately resolve itself by way of the Starks making a choice, whether to become Kings in the North again - or Kings of Winter. If so it might not be pretty.

[Voice]

I've liked the fairie idea for awhile, but I started having doubts because i don't think the Others are repelled by iron anymore. We have Royce parying with the Other in the Prologue with steel, which is iron and carbon, but doesn't do much to scare the Other.

If only Stannis Africannus was here, I'm pretty sure I was just having this conversation with him- do you remember Yield. and Weasel Pie?

 

if only we had a "like" button, because otherwise, i Kan't Tell you how much i like your post without quoting it. i'll Keep Trying your link.

[Tucu]

 

4 Great point. And no, I don't see how the Others solve it at all. What makes BC's "frenemy" interpretation all the more convoluted, is that all the tales agree that the children of the forest helped the First Men in the fight against the Others. BC likes to italicize their effort, which is fine, but it certainly seems to over-complicate the story. The chronology itself is quite telling:

 

i. FM arrive, kill trees, fight with cotf...

ii. the cotf fight back, drop some hammers-maybe...

iii. the FM and cotf agree to the Pact...

iv. an age of cooperation begins, and FM adopt the gods of the cotf...

v. the long night falls...

vi. the Others come for the first time...

vii. the cotf aid the Last Hero...

viii. the long night ends

 

I don't see how anyone can contrive a motive for the cotf to instigate such an onslaught, after finally attaining peace with the FM.

The CoTF and their crannogmen allies used the Hammer of the Waters between the Pact and the Long Night (mentioned in ACoK)

[Black Crow]

Again, we have nothing in the text to suggest that the terms of the Pact apply to groups who were not present on the Isle of Faces.

 

I hear your argument but remain unimpressed. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the singers drew any distinction between the white-eyes.

 

On the contrary, had the Pact held, we might expect to see them seeking and finding refuge with the Kings in the North, where Andals feared to tread. Yet conspicuously they did not and the last Lord of Winterfell could confidently assure his sons they were all long dead.

[Mother of Dragons]

if only we had a "like" button, because otherwise, i Kan't Tell you how much i like your post without quoting it. i'll Keep Trying your link.

Yes, please Keep Trying!! We used to have like buttons here on Westeros, I wonder why they got rid of them? I'm not sure if the link is working properly, yet, but Keep it Together, hopefully it'll get fixed soon.

[Voice]

Yes, please Keep Trying!! We used to have like buttons here on Westeros, I wonder why they got rid of them? I'm not sure if the link is working properly, yet, but Keep it Together, hopefully it'll get fixed soon.

 

i'll Keep at iT...

 

 

The CoTF and their crannogmen allies used the Hammer of the Waters between the Pact and the Long Night (mentioned in ACoK)

 

Against men not bound by the terms of the Pact.

 

 

I hear your argument but remain unimpressed. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the singers drew any distinction between the white-eyes.

 

Not true, given BR and Bran are the two in that cave. The ancient man and young boy couldn't be more different, except...

 

[Edit: so no citation BC?]

[wolfmaid7]

 

I hear your argument but remain unimpressed. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the singers drew any distinction between the white-eyes.

 

On the contrary, had the Pact held, we might expect to see them seeking and finding refuge with the Kings in the North, where Andals feared to tread. Yet conspicuously they did not and the last Lord of Winterfell could confidently assure his sons they were all long dead.

:agree:

[Tucu]

 

i'll Keep at iT...

 

 

 

Against men not bound by the terms of the Pact.

 

 

 

Not true, given BR and Bran are the two in that cave. The ancient man and young boy couldn't be more different, except...

 

[Edit: so no citation BC?]

The Pact was between Men (or maybe just First Men) and the CoTF. The CoTF used the hammer against First Men.

Why? Who was bound by the Pact? Were not all First Men bound by the Pact? or some First Men broke the Pact (intentionally or by ignorance)?

[Black Crow]

Not true, given BR and Bran are the two in that cave. The ancient man and young boy couldn't be more different, except...

 

[Edit: so no citation BC?]

 

Depends what the three fingered tree-huggers are using them for.

 

As to your "citation" I've just answered that question.  :cool4:

[Voice]

The Pact was between Men (or maybe just First Men) and the CoTF. The CoTF used the hammer against First Men.

Why? Who was bound by the Pact? Were not all First Men bound by the Pact? or some First Men broke the Pact (intentionally or by ignorance)?

 

Now that I have a nice cup of coffee in front of me I see I misspoke. The Hammers predate the Pact, so the original point stands. Since the Pact, we've seen cooperation, rather than conflict.

[Voice]

Depends what the three fingered tree-huggers are using them for.

 

As to your "citation" I've just answered that question.  :cool4:

 

LOL, I certainly admire your confidence as always BC. It just seems based on scant evidence.

[Tucu]

 

Now that I have a nice cup of coffee in front of me I see I misspoke. The Hammers predate the Pact, so the original point stands. Since the Pact, we've seen cooperation, rather than conflict.

The 2nd hammer hit was after the Pact:

-"The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck"

-"And the Tall, slender Children's Tower, were legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters"

 

(unless the crannogmen forged an alliance with the CoTF before the Pact...a prePact?)

[wolfmaid7]

Hmmm the COTF along with their wise men forge a "pact" on the isle of faces. The particulars are as follows.Let's forget that one side got the short end of the stick.

 

1.The COTF give up most of their land except for the Deep Forests which was to remain their domain.

 

2.The first men agree not to cut down any weirwood anywhere nor put fire to them

 

 

Q. Were these conditions met Voice of the first men?

 

My issue with Voice's take 

 

Homogenous labeling of the COTF- We know at one point cooperation between "some" COTF and greenseers and "some" humans happened.Thus, It is incorrect to generalize the relationship between "men" and the "Children".

 

 

There is evidence that Men broke the pact.Do the Deep forest belong to the COTF only or are Men still there in one form or the other?

 

Did Weirwoods continually get get cut down and burned?

 

You say "cooperation' overall i say "non interferance".

 

When the wws and the dead swept over the land where was this alliance? There was none,there was no "help"

When the Andals came where was this alliance? According to the main text there was none.The WB cites one or two instances of Children allying with some humans...That's it.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

I always interpreted "a time for wolves" to mean "a time to be nasty and rip peoples' throats out, you know, like wolves do." And, naturally, the StarK resToration. Which I assume will be one or two surviving Starks rebuilding a destroyed Winterfell, along with the 15 or 20 other people who survive the end of the series.

 

Are you suggesting that Rickard/Arryn somehow planned for the Others, Matthew.? 

[Voice]

The 2nd hammer hit was after the Pact:
-"The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children of the forest in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck"
-"And the Tall, slender Children's Tower, were legend said the children of the forest had once called upon their nameless gods to send the hammer of the waters"
 
(unless the crannogmen forged an alliance with the CoTF before the Pact...a prePact?)

I'm on the road now, but I may have to rethink this. Can you point me to the chapter in Clash? I don't trust the wiki LOL