About Jon Snow NOT being Azor Ahai (and where I think it leads him)

[HexMachina]

People who say that Dany isn't AAR are not ignoring the text they understand what is going on.

Its hardly ignoring the text though when she fits several of the requirements. That is not to say it is necessarily her, but there are at the very least reasonable grounds to believe that she is. You can disagree with that, and thats fine. I myself see that both Jon and Dany fit several 'requirements' (though, iirc, neither of them fits all requirements) of AA, but wouldn't like to say one or the other definitely is or isn't AA. Certainly, I wouldn't say that claiming one of those two are AAR is ignoring the text.

[LordStoneheart]

Sure. However what you said it is still wrong.

Which part?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Which part?

Again, you mentioned something, the Drogon and Jon part, that I have never agreed with. Why? 

[Dark Lord of Stygai]

Um guys, you may have strayed a wee bit from the original idea of the thread, no?

 

 

I like the analysis the OP has worked out, but I disagree with some things. The idea that both R'hllor and the Great Other are more than abstract divine figures and are active manipulators is a bit iffy with me. I agree that they are more likely to be forces of nature, and i also understand what you said about overusing the word "gods".

 

Secondly, while I agree with your theory that Jon will be the mediator/balance between the two sides (it fits his character so well. Good catch!) I still think a great battle will happen between the two sides. There's been too much build up for it to be otherwise, and I will certainly be greatly disappointed if it all ended with one heroic sacrifice - sans battle. Maybe his role will come in the middle of the battle?

 

I also completely agree that Jon would be an unsung hero. He will probably be vital in ending the war, but not a lot of people - if any - will know of his involvement.

[aryasthebomb]

I don't know... Stanis being called AA smells like a red herring. Dany hatching Dragons under a comet after killing Drogo seems like the real deal. Just saying. IMO, it takes some effort to read the signs in Jon's death scene and ignore the signs in Dany's story.

BUT what may very well be misleading is the belief that AA=TPtwP, and that AA is the saviour. That's what people in world seem to believe, that's what we tend to believe. In that sense, yes, Dany is a giant red herring.

I feel I should be honest, though. That's what I want to happen, because the whole "promise me, Ned" thing makes it so damn poetic..

Also, GRRM said HR can't show up yet because he knows way too much about the main mistery of the series. Well, RLJ is a big mistery, but more important than everything about the Others? Unless he also knows how Jon's birth ties into the song of ice and fire....

who's HR? Nevermind howland reed duh

[Victor Y.]

 
Secondly, while I agree with your theory that Jon will be the mediator/balance between the two sides (it fits his character so well. Good catch!) I still think a great battle will happen between the two sides. There's been too much build up for it to be otherwise, and I will certainly be greatly disappointed if it all ended with one heroic sacrifice - sans battle. Maybe his role will come in the middle of the battle?

Oh, yes, I totally agree with this. Sorry for not making It clear. Maybe even a few big battles happen and maybe Jon fights for R'hollor on the begining of the war, until he realizes that's not what he's supposed to be doing. I totally see that happening, and as I stated before, I don't think Jon's understanding of the situation will come easily, which means I don't think it will come quickly as well.

As for the other discussion, I have two points:
1. Sure GRRM thinks he should treat his prophecies in a more complex/non obvious way than most writers. i agree with that and see why many people take that as a big indicator that Daenerys is not Azor Ahai. But that IMO means he will not give every other prophecy the same treatment. Some of them will be obvious, some of them will be very hard to decipher, some of them will be kind of obvious as to who/what will fulfill them but not as obvious as to what that will ultimately mean, which takes me to my second point

2. I have interpreted it as if Dany was Azor Ahai, true, because that's what best fits the text IMO. But the real point I've been trying to make all over my theory is: Azor Ahai is NOT some kind of savior. He/she/it is merely a weapon, a puppet of sorts. IMO, that makes Daenerys' relation to the prophecy obvious and not obvious at the same time. While we are led to believe that she is and that seems obvious, the fact that (again, as I assume) AA is not a savior is misleading.

[Victor Y.]

Nevermind

[Victor Y.]

Nevermind

[Victor Y.]

Nevermind

[Victor Y.]

Nice theory, very convincing...
 
I would like it to be true...
 
...so it probably isn't.
 
Not sure what I do believe in other than R+L=J...
 
We need The Winds of Winter out now.

Well, one theory has to be right, right? Haha
Let's hope it's the one not leading ASOIAF to being another batch of tropes

[Victor Y.]

Jon is the PTWP I am nearly positive on that. His life was based on a promise and since I tend to think that AA and the PTWP are the same person/entity I think Jon is Azor Ahai then as well.
 
One thing I do agree with you on is that the all thing about the song in a song of ice and fire actually means battle of ice and fire. And something Bloodraven says to Bran in aDwD. "Every song needs a balance".  So my interpretation of that is every battle needs a balance. Cant have on side fully be the winner. I believe Jon is the balance. He has blood of both ice and fire. He is a warg and possibly could be a dragon binder.

Just went back to ADwD for this particular line. It's there and it's not the most obvious choice of words, given the context in which Bloodraven says it. I'll take that as a hint GRRM intentionally dropped, referring to his very own Song of Ice And Fire.

[Khal Al]

This theory is consistent with the Ragnarok theory. Both sides involved in a war that leads to their Mutually Assured Destruction. This is how balance is regained.

[Victor Y.]

This theory is consistent with the Ragnarok theory. Both sides involved in a war that leads to their Mutually Assured Destruction. This is how balance is regained.

Is there such a theory connecting Ragnarok to ASOIAF?

[AerionBrightflameII]

Is there such a theory connecting Ragnarok to ASOIAF?

It coincides with Cersei's rule ineptly leading them all to The Others cook pot .  

[Victor Y.]

It coincides with Cersei's rule ineptly leading them all to The Others cook pot .

Cool, thanks for the info. Will look into it.

[Meera of Tarth]

I will not deny that there's a lot of undeserved Dany hate on this site, it surprised me. And I do think that what you say is partially true, but for me personally, I think that Dany being Azor Ahai, is TOO obvious. The prophecy would have already happened in the end of the first book, while it's such a big thing I feel like that's too early. And then there's the fact that I believe the prince that was promised is the same as azor ahai, I don't see any reason to believe it's not the same prophecy and "his is the song of ice and fire", which if you believe R+L=J (which I do) points to Jon.

 

to the OP: good job though, your version also makes a lot of sense, I guess we'll have to wait and find out which version comes closest to the truth.

I didn't think of Daenerys as AA, but I was convinced reading posts from this forum. Why the obvious can not be true??

 

 

 

There was another thread some days ago which listed all the possible AAs, if they are to exist. I am of the opinion that there is a strong chance that there will be many AA's figures, because if the Long Night arrives, it will be physically impossible that one man (or woman) can mend all that messy situation alone.

 

Having said that, I think that Daenerys is the only person who, by now, suits the prophecy as the best candidate. Of course we could think that Jon is a good candidate as well, but, personally, I think he doesn't fit the text the way Dany does. Anyway, I know prophecies are not to be very clear, but his smoke and salt situation doesn't convince me.

 

 

TL;DR:
Jon Snow is not AA, and not even one of the dragon riders. Daenerys obviously is. Being Azor Ahai, though, she's not some kind of savior to TWOIAF. She and her dragons are merely weapons that are being prepared by R'hollor to be used in the war to come against The Great Other. Bran Stark is her equivalent on the other side. None of the gods care about humans and they just want to see their powers prevail, so none of them winning the war will bring anything good to the rest of the world. People will obviously not see this and start picking sides, when the only possible way out will be to stop the fighting and go for some kind of peace/balance treaty between them (please see the long version to understand why I think this is possible, and how it would be different from AA stopping the Long Night).

Jon will be among the few capable of seeing this. The power in his blood (according to R+L=J) makes him valuable for both sides, and he has a recent history of trying to solve another ancient rivalry, which he will use to his favor. Trying to somehow stop the conflict between R'hollor and The Great Other will be Jon's ultimate task in the story. I'm not saying he will succeed.

By the way, your interpretation is a fresh idea of the Song. It fits Dany's role as AA (and a merely tool as you have said), and makes Jon a relevant figure (related to his arc as well) as a saviour. Bran's role is original too and may well be true (though I love Bran and I'd prefer him to be even more relevant :) ). Overall, it all makes sense.

 

But I have an objection to this: what if AA hasn't been reborn yet? Jon can possibly be literally reborn in a future. And be AA, as well as Dany. Then, we have two AA figures, and then they should have symilar roles.

[Meera of Tarth]

Is there such a theory connecting Ragnarok to ASOIAF?

Yes, there is a thread here I read: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129215-the-broad-conclusions-of-the-ragnarok-theory/

[JonSnow4President]

Dany just fits the AA prophecy to a T before we ever learn of the prophecy.  I think Stannis is the stated red herring, and because it is way too early, I think Dany is who we are "supposed" to think is the "real" AA.  The only reason I think Jon is AA is because he fits without being Olly level obvious foreshadowing.

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

 

 

great read. big believer in Bran the tool of the great other. as someone pointed out, we probably wont see the gods, but maybe their influence...

[Victor Y.]

 
By the way, your interpretation is a fresh idea of the Song. It fits Dany's role as AA (and a merely tool as you have said), and makes Jon a relevant figure (related to his arc as well) as a saviour. Bran's role is original too and may well be true (though I love Bran and I'd prefer him to be even more relevant :) ). Overall, it all makes sense.
 
But I have an objection to this: what if AA hasn't been reborn yet? Jon can possibly be literally reborn in a future. And be AA, as well as Dany. Then, we have two AA figures, and then they should have symilar roles.

Thanks for taking your time to read and reply!

Of course what you said may be right, and we will only know once the last two books are out.

My main objection against Jon being AA in any sort of way, though, comes from the fact that he is a Stark/Targaryen, and it may be just my way of seeing things, but I really don't see that leading him to become the champion of light, fighting with fire against the icy evil beings. I may be going fanatic, but I really think that the unusual combination in his blood has to mean something more than that.