Gerey Targaryen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Hello to you all. This is my first topic so excuse me if someone asked this before. Assuming R+L=J is true and Jon was born at the TOJ, wouldn't his last name be Sand instead of Snow since the TOJ is in Dorne? Even if R+L=J isn't true and Wylla (or Ashara) is Jon's mother, it would still make more sense for him to be a Sand than a Snow. Or if his mother was that fisherman's daughter on the Fingers, which is in the Vale, he would be Stone. Are bastards' last names defined by their place of birth or their parent's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Hello to you all. This is my first topic so excuse me if someone asked this before. Assuming R+L=J is true and Jon was born at the TOJ, wouldn't his last name be Sand instead of Snow since the TOJ is in Dorne? Even if R+L=J isn't true and Wylla (or Ashara) is Jon's mother, it would still make more sense for him to be a Sand than a Snow. Or if his mother was that fisherman's daughter on the Fingers, which is in the Vale, he would be Stone. Are bastards' last names defined by their place of birth or their parent's? He lives in the North, he and his father. It's by the place of residence (how others would call him), not by their place of birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I doubt the rules for bastard naming are firmly in place. By their very nature, bastards aren't super rules-governed, but for their exclusion from just about everything. Most don't move from their region of birth. - Oh! There's Edric Storm. Conceived on Dragonstone, presumably birthed at Brightwater in the Reach, but because he was raised at Storm's End, he's a Storm. - Perhaps he was born a Flowers? I do wonder if that's something that can change based on primary residence as a youth, or if they default to the father, as his mother was a Reachman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Hmm, interesting, never occurred to me before, but think the above posters explanations make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgul-Blade Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If Jon is a legitimate Targaryen, then his bastard name is false regardless. It would seem to be paternal, unless the father is an unknown, such as a whore's welp. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Hello to you all. This is my first topic so excuse me if someone asked this before. Assuming R+L=J is true and Jon was born at the TOJ, wouldn't his last name be Sand instead of Snow since the TOJ is in Dorne? Even if R+L=J isn't true and Wylla (or Ashara) is Jon's mother, it would still make more sense for him to be a Sand than a Snow. Or if his mother was that fisherman's daughter on the Fingers, which is in the Vale, he would be Stone. Are bastards' last names defined by their place of birth or their parent's? In this case, it was determined by the father, who said "this is my natural son and his name is Jon Snow". I believe that there are no specific rules beyond "in the North it's Snow, in the Reach it's Flowers, etc.", and if Eddard Stark declares that his son is named Jon Snow (or Sand, or Storm, or whatever else he picks), it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Furthermore, Obara wouldn't be a Sand snake, it's well known she was born in Oldtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrinceHenryris Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 I brought this up a while back, but since I can't search my content these days I can't find the thread. Personally, I think it ties back to Ned's promise to Lyanna. If Jon were the son of Ned and Ashara/Wylla, Jon would have been better off staying in Dorne as a Sand. However, if Jon was Lyanna's son and she made Ned promise to protect him, then Ned would have been obligated to bring Jon to Winterfell as a Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Furthermore, Obara wouldn't be a Sand snake, it's well known she was born in Oldtown. Would anyone fear Obara Flowers? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Actually, there are no rules on that. Each and everybody can take whichever second name he or she wants, unless he tries to pass himself off as part of another family. For the smallfolk, that's basically useless and these names won't get used. And it's somewhat dangerous, since if they take the same name as a noble family, it could be constructed as fraud. For the nobility, they have their names. The bastard name is something the noble parent bestows upon his bastard to distinguish him from the smallfolk, while not trying to pass him off as part of another family. The actual bastard names are "safe" in that regard, but they are no more than customary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Feelgood Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Hello to you all. This is my first topic so excuse me if someone asked this before. Assuming R+L=J is true and Jon was born at the TOJ, wouldn't his last name be Sand instead of Snow since the TOJ is in Dorne? Even if R+L=J isn't true and Wylla (or Ashara) is Jon's mother, it would still make more sense for him to be a Sand than a Snow. Or if his mother was that fisherman's daughter on the Fingers, which is in the Vale, he would be Stone. Are bastards' last names defined by their place of birth or their parent's? I believed his alternate bastard surname would be Rivers, like prevoius Targ bastards, or Waters for the Crownlands, and was based on lineage more than location. I now think its subjective and is a decision made by the parents and any formula is more a recommendation. Though it may also depend on if he's acknowledged or not. The Sand Snakes were born in a few different places but when acknowledged by Oberyn and brought to Dorne their surname became Sand. Then you have Mya Stone vs. Edric Storm, location obviously played a role here but I don't believe Mya was officially acknowledged (though it seems widely known) so then the surname reverts to location in this case. Whereas Edric was fathered on a Highborn and Robert had to acknowledge him for honors sake. Essentially, I don't believe there are rules but guidelines. Highly subjective guidelines which would make Jon a Snow no matter the location or Parentage. Simply because that is what Ned named him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I always assumed that as Eddard Stark's acknowledged Bastard he wound up with the traditional name "Snow". Had he known his birth it might be something else but Eddard and his family, and Jon and everyone else assumes that Jon's father is Eddard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitron Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 *That's* what's buried in the tombs at Winterfell--Jon's original long form birth certificate! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Actually, there are no rules on that. Each and everybody can take whichever second name he or she wants, unless he tries to pass himself off as part of another family. For the smallfolk, that's basically useless and these names won't get used. And it's somewhat dangerous, since if they take the same name as a noble family, it could be constructed as fraud. For the nobility, they have their names. The bastard name is something the noble parent bestows upon his bastard to distinguish him from the smallfolk, while not trying to pass him off as part of another family. The actual bastard names are "safe" in that regard, but they are no more than customary. Not trying to be a jerk, but upon what are you basing this? You present this as fact and not theory or assumption, so what is your source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 In England, an acknowledged bastard of the king often has the prefix Fitz and then the King's name as his name. For instance, FitzCharles, FitzHenry, Fitzwilliam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 In England, an acknowledged bastard of the king often has the prefix Fitz and then the King's name as his name. For instance, FitzCharles, FitzHenry, Fitzwilliam. This would be very helpful in Westeros. Jon would be a FitzTarg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow of the Morning Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Bastards are got their surnames after the place they lived, not where they were born. Other similar case as Jon is Obara Sand that was born in Oldtown, but was brought to Dorne very early. Call a bastard of the North as Sand or a reach bastard Hill would be embarrassing for their fathers anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Not trying to be a jerk, but upon what are you basing this? You present this as fact and not theory or assumption, so what is your source? Partially upon European history, but mostly it's based on the examples of Jon Snow, the Sandsnakes, the Heddles, Longwaters, the Barleycorns and their friends from D&E and especially on Tyrion Tanner, whose bastard name is none of the standard ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Ah...so it's supposition. You made you it sound like it was fact. Not that it doesn't make sense, I just doubt it's that spelled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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