The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[Darkstream]

Sweetsunray,

I fear I don't have the knowledge or comprehension levels required to add any usefully commentary to the discussion at hand, but I don't think it can be said enough how brilliant I think your theory and analysis of the books are. I thank you for sharing this great piece of work and can't express enough how educating and insightful reading this thread has been for me. I've greatly enjoyed reading your posts as well as the rest of the posters on this thread.

And dare I say it, opening this thread is like a ray of sweet sunshine!:)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

<snip

 

Nice catch of "paying for the crossing". Even if in essence, Arya travels from one underworld to another.

 

I'll think on your challenges :)

Speaking of "paying for the crossing"...House Frey.  

 

 

 

Well, Quentyn approaches the dragon aspiring to controlling one, rather than killing one, but very reminiscint of the typical hero tales of dragonslayers. In one way GRRM shows us, "When they say fire breathing animals are deadly, then those stories of knights challenging a dragon with shield and sword is bull." It's a trope-breaking: that's what happens when you face a dragon. On the other hand it also serves as an alt universe of what most likely would have happened if Young Griff had gone to Mereen instead of Westeros. And we had a POV about the Tattered Prince, and it was the plot-aid to free the dragons.

 

Personally I think that all of Doran's plans and his children will end up dead. Areo Hotah's chapter about Doran at the gardens has three blood oranges drop the ground and splatter. Not only are his plans overripe, but one of those plans also already cost him one son's life.

Little nitpick here but facing the dragon wasn't an issue.  The dragon that attacked Quent was the one he had his back to.  That may not make any difference as far as symbolism goes, but it's something a lot of people seem to have missed.  It's possible that the whole reason Rhaegal spit fire was because he wanted Quentyn to choose him and was jealous.  Remember that Drogon shot fire at Dany in the same scene where she first climbs on his back and rides him as well.

 

I fully expect Arianne to die, but your overripe oranges make me sad.  I don't see why Trystane has to die too. :(

 

 

This is really good, but for the first FM I must side with Lady Blizzardborn, her explanation operates on much tighter logic.

There are no sides here. :D  I just have a different analysis, and apparently that one resonates with you. 

 

 

This is off-topic sweetsunray but I wonder if you know anything about the Celtic gods most associated with human sacrifice. I looked this up a few years ago under human sacrifice wanting to see if there were perhaps antecedents to the main gods of Westeros and was rather astonished to find a triad of them that corresponded, at least in the sacrificial elements, to Rhllor, The Drowned Gid and The Old Ones. They are Esus, likely a god of vegetation, whose victims were flailed and hung from trees; Taranis, whose victims were immolated; and Teutates, whose victims were drowned. If I had found one here, one there, I wouldn't have been as surprised but usually (though some dispute this) they are mentioned as an actual triad. I had never heard of these gods before. Knowing you love myth too, I thought I'd mention them to you in case you didn't know about them either. They are sometimes associated with Odin, Thor and Freyr. Just an interesting find.

Alternatively Esus = Bolton.  Taranis = Targaryen.  Teutates = the old world Iron Islanders, who might well have drowned their opponents long before they got the idea of the fake drowning for their religion.

 

sweetsunray, I would say that Tobho's hunting scene indicates that blood is necessary for reworking Valyrian Steel. Hunting itself wouldn't indicate magic, but the choice of that activity for the sign could certainly be a clue to what is involved in the magic.  I wonder if blood in particular is mentioned in the text in the description of that scene.  I don't recall.

 

I see your points about the resurrection but I'm not sure it is necessarily going to be confined to the Riverlands.  You've established the connection between Bloodraven's cave, the Hollow Hill, and possibly Winterfell, but don't forget that underground spaces include the Wall's Black Gate, and ultimately all of these places may be physically (as well as symbolically) connected.  Also since only the R'hllorists have been able to work that, he has at the very least opened up the possibility that Mel could resurrect someone.  Of course this is a minor point since I maintain that Jon isn't dead so he doesn't need resurrection anyway.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

sweetsunray, while there is no mist in Bloodraven's cave, he himself is associated with mists.  Have you read the Dunk and Egg stories?  If not I highly recommend them. BR appears in The Mystery Knight but he is referenced in all three.  Would be interesting to see your analysis of the mythological symbolism in those stories.

[sweetsunray]

Speaking of "paying for the crossing"...House Frey.  

 

 

Little nitpick here but facing the dragon wasn't an issue.  The dragon that attacked Quent was the one he had his back to.  That may not make any difference as far as symbolism goes, but it's something a lot of people seem to have missed.  It's possible that the whole reason Rhaegal spit fire was because he wanted Quentyn to choose him and was jealous.  Remember that Drogon shot fire at Dany in the same scene where she first climbs on his back and rides him as well.

 

I fully expect Arianne to die, but your overripe oranges make me sad.  I don't see why Trystane has to die too. :(

 

 

There are no sides here. :D  I just have a different analysis, and apparently that one resonates with you. 

 

 

Alternatively Esus = Bolton.  Taranis = Targaryen.  Teutates = the old world Iron Islanders, who might well have drowned their opponents long before they got the idea of the fake drowning for their religion.

 

sweetsunray, I would say that Tobho's hunting scene indicates that blood is necessary for reworking Valyrian Steel. Hunting itself wouldn't indicate magic, but the choice of that activity for the sign could certainly be a clue to what is involved in the magic.  I wonder if blood in particular is mentioned in the text in the description of that scene.  I don't recall.

 

I see your points about the resurrection but I'm not sure it is necessarily going to be confined to the Riverlands.  You've established the connection between Bloodraven's cave, the Hollow Hill, and possibly Winterfell, but don't forget that underground spaces include the Wall's Black Gate, and ultimately all of these places may be physically (as well as symbolically) connected.  Also since only the R'hllorists have been able to work that, he has at the very least opened up the possibility that Mel could resurrect someone.  Of course this is a minor point since I maintain that Jon isn't dead so he doesn't need resurrection anyway.

 

Tobho's hunting scene on the door: nope, no blood mention, and we don't even learn what the hunting scene depicts (might be a bear hunt). We do get the description of two stone statues standing aside the door. The statues wear colored armor - red colored. One looks like a griffin the other a unicorn. Griffins represent the divine and regal (griffon = lion + eagle; king of the land animals + king of the air). And a unicorn stands for purity and grace, and why only a maiden gets close to them.

 

Now we do know that the Qohori are renowned hunters and foragers. So, their culture would probably hold close to earth-like-nature-forest beliefs. If we'll ever see an actual proper bear hunt ritual performed (as it was done by Finns and Saami) my bet is there. GRRM knows about these traditional ritualistic bear-hunts, because the first half of the bear-maiden song fits the purpose of a proper-bear-hunt codex (where the bear spirit won't end up taking revenge), including a jump between stanza 2 and stanza 3 that fits the leaving out a stanza, a hidden stanza (the bear is killed in between stanza 2 and stanza 3). He then has Tom & co re-enact those same stanza's, including the hidden stanza, when Anguy shoots arrows at Arya that miss her by a hair (on purpose).

 

Bear-hunts were important because the bear was the king, protector of the forest. A bear's spirit was nature's force. So, once a year, they killed a bear to acquire the bear's blessing for year-round hnting success of other game. In the Qohoric culture where hunting is of such significance and livelihood, a bear hunt thus would fit perfectly. But to get the blessing without the dead bear's spirit turning violent, the hunters would carry the bear like a bridegroom with pomp and cacaphony to the village where his "bride" awaited him. There were only 3 hunters (one a shaman playing drums or musical insturment) and they'd lie about the act. They'd pretend the bear was still alive; in the case he'd discover he was actually dead, they'd say "wasn't us, was an accident"; and when they arrived at the village they'd actually lie about their origin. So, for example you had 3 Finn hunters shouting, "We are sons of Sweden!" thereby scapegoating Sweden. If the bear would turn vengeful then he'd target the Swedish. So, 3 boys and a goat in the bear-maiden song are not at all as innocent and jolly as they seem. The dead bear would be wed to a maiden, they'd feast on the bear, and then gather the bones and burry them, even in human burrial cases (if you skin a bear, he looks like a man). Then the bear would turn into a bird and fly back to the heavens, its place of origin (the bear constellations), where they'd tell the other bear-man spirits how well they were treated and it was a great area to be born.

 

Now, the Wayland the Smith legend is the account of the bear revenge: if you extort the bear, refuse him a bride, keep him a prisoner, instead of releasing him to return to the heavens, well then things get very ugly. Wayland looks to us as a man, but he lives alone in the woods, sits on a bear skin, wakes to roasting bear steaks, and he's captured by this evil, greedy king, who thinks he can get everything without paying the price for it, and after his revenge he flies off as a bird. As a man he's represented as a smith. He has a sword (a coveted sword) and makes rings. The mythological link of a smith to a bear is aimed in representing what he makes as the game of the forest. The rings are the non-bear forest game coveted by hunters. The sword is what he protects the forest with.

 

So, smiths, hunting game and bear-hunts are mythologically related. And then we have Qohor renowned for both knowing the secret how to reforge VS steel and a hunting society. Smiths and hunting. That's why I suspect Tobho's hunting scene on his door might include a bear, or the VS reforging involves bear hunting.

 

ETA: ouch... poor Quentyn. Rhaegal barbequed him out of envy. You're right - he was taken in the back. I always feel so sad when I read about Quentyn. Such a dutiful young man, sailing the end of the world, shaking in his boots about Danaerys, getting rejected, not wanting to come home empty-handed, and he got smoked :(

[sweetsunray]

@sweetsunray
About this quote, "The evil king extorts the man (who's a bear character) for his personal gain, preferably forever. It ends with the bear-figure exterminating the evil king's male bloodline, impregnating the princess and force the king into agreeing his child with the princess will be the heir. GRRM uses the concept of bear-abuse/extortion in relation to revenge in the books."
That really really reminds me of the Bael the Bard story of how he stole the Stark daughter and impregnated her, but there were no more other Stark branches so her child was the only heir.

 

Yup. Good find!

[Lady Barbrey]

Speaking of "paying for the crossing"...House Frey.  
 
 
Little nitpick here but facing the dragon wasn't an issue.  The dragon that attacked Quent was the one he had his back to.  That may not make any difference as far as symbolism goes, but it's something a lot of people seem to have missed.  It's possible that the whole reason Rhaegal spit fire was because he wanted Quentyn to choose him and was jealous.  Remember that Drogon shot fire at Dany in the same scene where she first climbs on his back and rides him as well.
 
I fully expect Arianne to die, but your overripe oranges make me sad.  I don't see why Trystane has to die too. :(
 
 
There are no sides here. :D  I just have a different analysis, and apparently that one resonates with you. 
 
 
Alternatively Esus = Bolton.  Taranis = Targaryen.  Teutates = the old world Iron Islanders, who might well have drowned their opponents long before they got the idea of the fake drowning for their religion.
 
sweetsunray, I would say that Tobho's hunting scene indicates that blood is necessary for reworking Valyrian Steel. Hunting itself wouldn't indicate magic, but the choice of that activity for the sign could certainly be a clue to what is involved in the magic.  I wonder if blood in particular is mentioned in the text in the description of that scene.  I don't recall.
 
I see your points about the resurrection but I'm not sure it is necessarily going to be confined to the Riverlands.  You've established the connection between Bloodraven's cave, the Hollow Hill, and possibly Winterfell, but don't forget that underground spaces include the Wall's Black Gate, and ultimately all of these places may be physically (as well as symbolically) connected.  Also since only the R'hllorists have been able to work that, he has at the very least opened up the possibility that Mel could resurrect someone.  Of course this is a minor point since I maintain that Jon isn't dead so he doesn't need resurrection anyway.

Paying for crossing - he just can't be content with one allusion, can he? It's very agnostic and postmodern, really - too many options.

I love your equivalencies to the families. I sometimes wonder if these families, more particularly the Boltons, were not kingly lines in the past so much as they were priestly lines, responsible for the sacrifices including the sacrificial kings. A nod here to the Bolton's preference for wolf skins.

Sweetsunray, another exceptional and enlightening post but with Lady B I'm not quite convinced either that such a resurrection could not take place outside the Riverlands. Not that I think a Beric resurrection will happen to Jon (my money's on warging because of the prologue) but I do think it remains a possibility. Less of a possibility because of your argument but still there. Other factors could come into play we don't know about. On the other hand, I was impressed by the way you iterated that a red god wasn't behind the resurrection. I have long maintained this from other angles but your explanation was perfect.

[sweetsunray]

Sweetsunray,

I fear I don't have the knowledge or comprehension levels required to add any usefully commentary to the discussion at hand, but I don't think it can be said enough how brilliant I think your theory and analysis of the books are. I thank you for sharing this great piece of work and can't express enough how educating and insightful reading this thread has been for me. I've greatly enjoyed reading your posts as well as the rest of the posters on this thread.

And dare I say it, opening this thread is like a ray of sweet sunshine! :)

 

:blushing: :wub:

[Lady Barbrey]

@sweetsunray
About this quote, "The evil king extorts the man (who's a bear character) for his personal gain, preferably forever. It ends with the bear-figure exterminating the evil king's male bloodline, impregnating the princess and force the king into agreeing his child with the princess will be the heir. GRRM uses the concept of bear-abuse/extortion in relation to revenge in the books."
That really really reminds me of the Bael the Bard story of how he stole the Stark daughter and impregnated her, but there were no more other Stark branches so her child was the only heir.

Very nice. I've often wondered if that legend is based on truth and that's how something mysteriously 'icy' might have entered the Stark line that we have yet to find out about but that might sabotage all Bloodraven's plans if, as I suspect Jon's ultimate fate is to become a sacrificial king.

[Lady Barbrey]

I'm quite fascinated with the Dustin's, as Barrow Kings, and the last Kings of the First Men (hence my screen name). What do you make of Beric and Bloodraven's withering away in light of the Barrow Kings curse?

[sweetsunray]

Sweetsunray, another exceptional and enlightening post but with Lady B I'm not quite convinced either that such a resurrection could not take place outside the Riverlands. Not that I think a Beric resurrection will happen to Jon (my money's on warging because of the prologue) but I do think it remains a possibility. Less of a possibility because of your argument but still there. Other factors could come into play we don't know about. On the other hand, I was impressed by the way you iterated that a red god wasn't behind the resurrection. I have long maintained this from other angles but your explanation was perfect.

 

There are 2 Lady B's here :D

 

To be honest, I wasn't of it either until euhm actually today :lol: Originally, I did not even distinguish BR's cave and RL and Hollow Hill that much from each other. I have made the connections a while back, but it took time for me to be willing to form bigger picture conclusions out of it. I found it mythologically logical that Beric and LS were resurrected in a region so connected to the underworld in its references. But I did not regard it as GRRM establishing rules or territory.

 

For example, Braavos is an analogues underworld...but it's man-made. The rviers are man-made canals. There are no trees. And while the HoBaW is much like some dark cave with its cells and steep stairs into the deep of the knoll its built on, it's still a man-made house. They perform a type of resurrection whenever they wear a dead person's face. They become them - in looks, but also speech, and they even see and feel the emotions and events that led the people to their deaths. Jaqen doesn't address Arya anymore with the peculiar Lorathi speech mannerism as soon as he changes his face; the kindly man never talks to her like that at all either. The "A man knows." and "A boy has become a girl" are Lorathi speech mannerism. It's not FM becoming no-one speech, but jsut Lorathi. It's as close to a resurrection you can go, without messing with the natural order of "everyone must die".

 

But the conclusion remains that outside of RL no one has been resurrected in the Beric/LS way, not even in the closest underworld anology of the HoBaW. I doubt the Others are using fire magic, since the wights can only be killed by fire.

 

Like Lady Blizzardborn I think Jon's not dead yet. I expect to see Mel do Moqorro style Ashai healing on him. Since possibly internal organs are hit, and internal healing is required that would be extremely painful (the hand healing of Vic was excruciatingly painful). So, for such a thing to happen it'd be better that Jon does warg into Ghost for a while. I do think Mel will think she'll be doing the healing with some fire sacrifices possibly (not Jon on a pyre though). That wouldn't be powerful for the inflicted wounds, but from MMDs ritual we know that the "demons" pull in sacrifices. So, I think one ritual will lead to the wards on the magic of the Wall end up breaking, and leak into Jon. It'll weaken the Wall against whatever the Others do, or the horn, or a combination of it all with earthquakes. That imo is what Mel sees: the Wall coming down because of her involvement to save Jon. She has this thought: what other purpose do these visions otherwise have? Euhm to provoke you into meddling and manipulating people into making it come about? Like making a shadow-baby and kill Renly, and then have Stannis defeated by Garlan in Renly's armor? She was genuinely taken by surprise when Davos smuggled out Edric Storm to Lys. Because it had nothing to do with her - not her meddling, nor a threat to her life. Why doesn't she see Stannis anymore? Because she can't meddle with him anymore. He's out of her influence, so she gets no visions.

 

Since the magic of the Wall has been trapped in ice and stone for thousands of years, you'd get Jon becoming invincibly hard and cold like ice. It makes it similar like VIc, but instead of fire, it'll be ice. And basically Jon == Wall. Only issue then is that Jon can't spread himself for miles on end and be everywhere all at once. Only Superman can do such things, with his speed.

 

I guess this expectation makes Beric and LS's resurrection outside of the RL as irrelevant.

[The Green King]

 

There are many similarities between Beric and Bloodraven, but also very interesting differences.

 

Similarities

• Beric and Bloodraven sit entangled in weirwood roots
• Both have lost an eye
• Both their former identies are fading, even physically (from their clothing identity to the facial one)
• Beric looks like a scarecrow, BR as a corpse and is called the 3-eyed-crow
• Thoros can't bring back a headless Eddard, BR can't make Bran walk
• Hollow Hill and BR's cave are full of weirwood roots (indicating a weirwood grove growing above)

Differences

• Beric has died 7 times, with only the 7th being final, Bloodraven has never died so far
• Beric watches the cave, Bloodraven dreams
• Beric was hanged, Bloodraven is becoming part tree
• Beric is about justice, Bloodraven is about knowledge
• Beric consults with the GoHH, a woman who completely matches the seeress that Odin resurrects twice in the underworld to tell him news and prophecy. BR uses the weirnet and ravens instead.
• Beric is in a cave in the Riverlands, Bloodraven is in a cave in the frost lands
• Hollow Hill has no river, BR's cave has an underground river

Meeting Beric in Hollow Hill

 

Meeting BR in the cave

 

The similarities between the two men are uncanny in that they both depict Odin. But they also differ fundamentally. While BR is sacrificing himself to a tree, he has nothing to do with resurrection. Beric is resurrected 6 times. The clue of the hanging sign around Beric's neck refers to Odin's resurrection rune.

 

 

Now the GoHH's anology to Odin's seeress is another clue to resurrection and linking it to the underworld. Twice Odin seeks out a seeress (or at least there are two separate poems of two separate visits). The seeress is dead and sleeps the sleep of death in the underworld. Odin resurrects her from her grave (in the underworld). She shares what she knows, the "news", with Odin and finally ends with "prophecy", in exchange for "gifts". In the end of the exchange she requires to be left alone again so she can back to her death's sleep. Twice the BwB visit the ancient GoHH, who sees everything in her "sleep". She gives them news and prophecy, in exchange for gifts.

 

It's important that the resurrection Odin performs, both of the hanged men and the seeress, only in the underworld. They do not occur in the living world of the gods or men, only where the dead sleep/hang/dwell.

 

Now let's compare the two locations with the two locations of Norse mythology

 

NIflheim-Riverlands with Hel-Hollow Hill

• both have 9 rivers
• mists
• the ruling seat is a specific location with treeroots
• the dead can be resurrected, talked and walked with in the underworld, still showing their injuries, but otherwise still mentally functioning as people (even if fragmented and fading)
• Hel gets thrown in one of the rivers and become ruler of Niflheim; Catelyn gets thrown in one of the rivers and becomes ruler of BwB territory

Does BR's cave fit with Niflheim?

• Only 5 rivers
• No mist
• Necromancy, animation of corpses instead of resurrection
• Nobody gets throw in the river and becomes a ruler

 

Mimirswell and BR's cave

• the well/underground river is beneath treeroots
• knowledge related
• land of giants and frost

Meanwhile Hollow Hill does not fit the description of Mimirswell at all.

 

 

 

The underground river in BRs cave, and in fact Bran's throne is placed above the abyss where the river flows underneath.

 

 

While Beric is not resurrected in Hollow Hill the first time, he is resurrected in an ash grove, the tree that became associated with Yggdrasil in the proze edda.

 

 

When Arya escapes from HH and until being captured by the BwB, the days are misty and grey without a sun. Only after they're captured by the BwB do they get to see the sun. The weather's fine until her last chapter with the BwB where she ends up running outside and is taken by the Hound. These mark Arya's passage into and out of the underworld.

 

 

Then this is the info on Hel the being.

 

 

Now let's examine the BwB as R'hllorist.
 

The BwB call themselves R'hllorists because they think the fire magic only can come from R'hllor. We don't even know such a god exists. Meanwhile we had a fundamentalist Moqorro time and time telling Vic he should sacrifice people for R'hllor, and not the Great Other's thrall the "Drowned God". And fundamentalist Mel burning people alive in fires, burning weirwoods, etc. The BwB doesn't do any of those things. No, instead we see justice through combat (something of the 7) and LS hanging men (that's Odin's way). They are completely unconnected from the other R'hllorist. Neither Moqorro nor Mel even know about the resurrections in the RL. If they are in fact all three led by R'hllor, then why don't Moqorro or Mel learn of it when they gaze in the fires? And Mel regards "dreams" as being sent from the Great Other, and yet BwB consult both the flames (Thoros) as well as dreams (GoHH) for news.

 

The mistake being made is to ascribe the fire magic to R'hllor alone. We know that Leaf uses fire to kill the wights attacking Bran & co. So, CotF are not afraid of fire, or against using it.

 

 

And then in the next chapter the following happens...

 

 

 

Meanwhile Melisandre sees BR and Bran, looking right back at her through the flames

 

 

 

It seems that BR and Bran are perfectly able to use fire magic to look in the flames as well.

 

As for BR using wights and necromancy... The cave's being attacked by wights, once human as well as animals. Even when Bran's inside and learning, wighted animals attempt to attack the warded entrance. It doesn't seem Others and BR and thus Odin are joining forces. Just as Odin visits Mimirswell in 'enemy country', so does BR and Bran.

 

As for the Wild Hunt: in some accounts it are gods, in other spectres, or faeries. When I mention the 'underworld' I'm talking about 'the place where the dead dwell'. Gods and faeries aren't undead or dead. They may have been banished by Christianity to the underworld, but mythologically speaking their origin is not the Underworld. Also, even if the Wild Hunt is performed by spectres (undead or people who should be in the underworld), the Wild Hunt is not performed 'in' the underworld, but in the realm of men (air or ground).

 

Sure, wights are dead, animated corpses, and the attack on the Fist is like a Wild Hunt, so is Ser Amory attacking the holdfast at night, and other night pack attack/raids we witness performed by both wolves, monstrous people, and wights. But the Wild Hunt occurs in the realm of the living. When Arya flees from HH she passes a specific misty day, through hilss and valleys, there is Nym's pack in the valley hunting. She dreams of the wolves hunting the Bloody Mummers that are hunting her. So, while Arya is entering the 'underworld' the pack of wolves hunting wildly on wild hunters outside of the 'underworld'.

 

Also the Wild Hunt may end up as a blessing or a precursor warning of war or plague, aka disaster. We see this in the example of the Bloody Mummers and Nym's pack. Bloody Mummers - Wild Hunt of war. Nym's pack - Wild Hunt of protection. Nor is the Wild Hunt the apocalypse itself. Do we have such Wild Hunt forewarnings in the books?

- aGoT - The Mountain and his men raiding, burning and pillaging folk in the Riverlands => human war to come

- aCoK - Ser Amory attacking the holdfast at the Gods Eye, described as razing across the countryside as if they'd burn the lake if they could => more human war

- aSoS - The Fist of the wights on the NW => war to come with wights and Others; in aDwD it expands with the attack of Hardhome

- but also Nym's pack => protection and revenge... the hunters become hunted.

- aFfC - Remaining Bloody Mummers razing Saltpans

- but also BwB => they're becoming more organized hunting troups... again the hunters hunt the hunters

 

So, yes we see a lot of Wild Hunt passages, but they cannot be ascribed to one party alone, and the location of a wild hunt does not indicate the location of the underworld. The Others and their wights, nor lands of always winter make an underworld. If GRRM had used a different type of symbology and function of BR's cave, I'd agree. But he separates BR's cave physically and functionally from Beric's cave.

 

About the Wild Hunt you describe... that is no Wild Hunt, just foreshadowing... the realm has gone into decay,.. now a cleansing is needed... A REAL Wild Hunt >>>  and i think that is why the Others are coming. You say you see a lot of Wild Hunt passages, while id didn't see any. The Wild Hunt you describe doesn't seem to contain much Phantom Host or 'Ghost Riders'. Btw... the Wild Hunt is often described to be a kind of happening that involved Sidhe and was strongly related to nightly winter winds. Idk if you noticed what the title of the next book is called... WoW ;)

 

Also... BR'S cave is perfectly placed he can see anywhere. Also the Ygdrasil concept is spread into a Weirwood network... If you look at it, his place is perfect. He is located in the realm that is most 'North'  aka highest >>Above humans. This is the realm of deities, ghosts and dead. It does fit with medieval concepts form as well Northern, Western and Central Europe and is often a mix of not only Norse, but also Celtic Mythological components. 

 

And the GoHH ... Seems like she's getting her dreams from... the Weirwoods

 

Although ofcourse... Beric can be one of the many mirror images of the same complex archetype as BR and Jaqen.

In the end he was only needed as a strory device to create LS. 

 

Anyway, since the Tragedy of Summerhall (read Summerfall) the harvest feast has been celebrated with fire, and the decay over the realm has fallen, the real Enquinox was the death of king Aerys, but at the same time the birth of Jon. Now we are entering winter... time for a cleansing Wild Hunt. 

[Daendrew]

To Her Ladyship Sweetsunray,

 

If it please your ladyship, may I add that you keep posting one great thread after another?

 

If I may also be so bold as to say to her ladyship.... theorize proudly. Your posts are not crackpot. They are a crockpot of Sister's Stew. I beseech you to first play this song in another tab and in this tab edit the OP and takeout the parenthesis in the end of the title. You have permission to play with ideas in books you love. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Daendrew, Last of his Name

 

P.S. This is a crockpot... don't know if they use the name in Belgium.

[sweetsunray]

To Her Ladyship Sweetsunray,

 

If it please your ladyship, may I add that you keep posting one great thread after another?

 

If I may also be so bold as to say to her ladyship.... theorize proudly. Your posts are not crackpot. They are a crockpot of Sister's Stew. I beseech you to first play this song in another tab and in this tab edit the OP and takeout the parenthesis in the end of the title. You have permission to play with ideas in books you love. 

 

Sincerely,

 

Daendrew, Last of his Name

 

P.S. This is a crockpot... don't know if they use the name in Belgium.

 

Thank you Daen... I was just thinking of that music today, but then accompanied with helicopters ;)

[sweetsunray]

 

About the Wild Hunt you describe... that is no Wild Hunt, just foreshadowing... the realm has gone into decay,.. now a cleansing is needed... A REAL Wild Hunt >>>  and i think that is why the Others are coming. You say you see a lot of Wild Hunt passages, while id didn't see any. The Wild Hunt you describe doesn't seem to contain much Phantom Host or 'Ghost Riders'. Btw... the Wild Hunt is often described to be a kind of happening that involved Sidhe and was strongly related to nightly winter winds. Idk if you noticed what the title of the next book is called... WoW ;)

 

Also... BR'S cave is perfectly placed he can see anywhere. Also the Ygdrasil concept is spread into a Weirwood network... If you look at it, his place is perfect. He is located in the realm that is most 'North'  aka highest >>Above humans. This is the realm of deities, ghosts and dead. It does fit with medieval concepts form as well Northern, Western and Central Europe and is often a mix of not only Norse, but also Celtic Mythological components. 

 

And the GoHH ... Seems like she's getting her dreams from... the Weirwoods

 

Although ofcourse... Beric can be one of the many mirror images of the same complex archetype as BR and Jaqen.

In the end he was only needed as a strory device to create LS. 

 

Anyway, since the Tragedy of Summerhall (read Summerfall) the harvest feast has been celebrated with fire, and the decay over the realm has fallen, the real Enquinox was the death of king Aerys, but at the same time the birth of Jon. Now we are entering winter... time for a cleansing Wild Hunt. 

 

I think we disagree on the Wild Hunt's purpose.

 

I didn't say that htere's anything wrong with BR's cave, just not fitting the Underworld. The realm of the gods =/= dead.

[Daendrew]

 

Thank you Daen... I was just thinking of that music today, but then accompanied with helicopters ;)

 

pew pew pew

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Paying for crossing - he just can't be content with one allusion, can he? It's very agnostic and postmodern, really - too many options.

I love your equivalencies to the families. I sometimes wonder if these families, more particularly the Boltons, were not kingly lines in the past so much as they were priestly lines, responsible for the sacrifices including the sacrificial kings. A nod here to the Bolton's preference for wolf skins.

<snip

Indeed a lot of the main families in Westeros were kings many, many, MANY years ago.  The Boltons seem to have been the last major threat to Stark dominance, and it was after they were finally defeated that the Starks changed their title from King of Winter to King in the North, as their control now encompassed the entire region.

 

I don't recall if the Bolton's specifically were kings, but a lot of the houses were.  The Daynes, Blackwoods, Brackens, Tullys I think, Lannisters, Royces, probably most of the First Men houses still in existence. There were tiny kingdoms everywhere! 

 

sweetsunray, what do you make of the combination of Moqorro-style healing, Bran's vision of Jon's body growing cold, and Jon's own dream of being armored in black ice? 

[sweetsunray]

Green King - as you say, we have not really seen a Wild Hunt with spectres or faeries in the night sky. And while they are prominent in winter, they do not occur only in winter, nor are they all bad omen related, and whatever that is hunted, it is not humanity itself that is hunted. Victims are those who just happened to be in the way, rarely purposefully hunted. It's as if there's a hunt, but without a huntee. I've yet to see a Wild Hunt reference tying it to cleaning up humanity in any apocalyptic sense.

 

There are several issues regarding the Wild Hunt. While Grimm argued it was related to pre-christian beliefs with Wodan (aka Odin), it shows more alignment with the later time faeries. Those are christianized beliefs, where the pre-Christian gods have been turned into tricksters, demons belonging to barrows and hills. They still carry the same names but they're completely turned and twisted into another purpose - shades of their symbolical implications. The mentioning of it comes from late sources, and the early sources written down by monks for preservation - rather than warping - make no mention of it.

 

Of course, that in itself should not prevent GRRM from using it, if that is his intention. If the Witcher can use it, why not GRRM. But why use later time warped folklore when you have earlier mythological sources with way richer symbolical layered implications? The textual book references fit those of the older sources when it comes to mythology. Even when GRRM uses the rather modern story of Goldilocks (Jon) with the little bear (Tyrion), the middle bear (Jeor) and big bear (Tormund), he plays with the early versions of such stories: originally it are 3 male bachelor bears, not a kid, father and mother. The first version where it's a young person with the 3 bears, the girl isn't golden haired but silver-haired, and her name isn't Goldilocks, but Silver-Hair. Of course, Jon isn't a girl and his hair is dark brown. But Jon is called "pretty as a maiden", and he thinks of Tyrion looking like a "little bear" at the Wall, there's Old Bear of course, and then there's Tormund's story of him sleeping in a giant's belly holding a wintersleep, and him sleeping through a large part of the winter after stealing his she-bear... to wake up in spring - pretty much hinting at Tormund as a bear-character.

 

You could say - well but GRRM has put in fearies in the books with his CotF, and with them in their weirroot thrones, they are the gods, and thus fitting the fairies = gods having gone underground. And perhaps the Other's are some break-off branch of the CotF, who'll go on a late mideval Wild Hunt. The imagery would work. But when you take this approach, then any chtonic place stands for the underworld - every barrow, every crypt, every cave, beneath CR, and certainly not BR's alone. And yet, GRRM has put in specific different references for each of the chtonic locations - sometimes it's a passage, not all have weirroots, the function or events are completely different. And when we look at the specific differences, we stumble across thoroughly sourced material where these differentiations were also made. If those specific differences don't matter, then why have the resurrections occur in a location as the Riverlands at all?

[sweetsunray]

Indeed a lot of the main families in Westeros were kings many, many, MANY years ago.  The Boltons seem to have been the last major threat to Stark dominance, and it was after they were finally defeated that the Starks changed their title from King of Winter to King in the North, as their control now encompassed the entire region.

 

I don't recall if the Bolton's specifically were kings, but a lot of the houses were.  The Daynes, Blackwoods, Brackens, Tullys I think, Lannisters, Royces, probably most of the First Men houses still in existence. There were tiny kingdoms everywhere! 

 

sweetsunray, what do you make of the combination of Moqorro-style healing, Bran's vision of Jon's body growing cold, and Jon's own dream of being armored in black ice? 

 

Fully answered in my OP of the Icejon for the Wall thread. :D

[Evolett]

Great stuff, sweetsunray! I've been looking at Arya in terms of a weaver of destiny, as a Norn or one of the Fates (she has her 'Needle', (one of the tools for sewing / weaving). Your analysis extends this idea perfectly, love it. So far, I've regared the cup in general as a life giving / healing symbol (as in the Holy Grail) but of course it can also be regarded as a symbol of mercy as in giving the 'gift' of the FM. Now, I think the cup, in the context of mercy may provide the support you are looking for in respect of the First Faceless Man actually being a woman. The idea of mercy can be extended from drinking to caring for the poor and suffering in general. Support is very subtle but consider this:

 

Think of the freed Astapori slaves struck by the pale mare surrounding Meereen. It is Dany who takes the initiative to provide them with relief. While all others (the men) are horrified at the mere idea of even going near the sick, she is prepared to go alone. She asks for volunteers and only then do the men reluctantly agree. Conditions are horrific, and the freed slaves appeal to her, their Mother as they stream into the camp:

 

The Astapori stumbled after them in a ghastly procession that grew longer with every yard they crossed. Some spoke tongues she did not understand. Others were beyond speaking. Many lifted their hands to Dany, or knelt as her silver went by. “Mother,” they called to her, in the dialects of Astapor, Lys, and Old Volantis, in guttural Dothraki and the liquid syllables of Qarth, even in the Common Tongue of Westeros. “Mother, please … mother, help my sister, she is sick … give me food for my little ones … please, my old father … help him … help her … help me …”

 

 

 

Dany is very concerned for the welfare of the people. In addition to nursing her folk, she considers sharing the food they have:

 

 

 The queen surveyed the scene around her. “If we were to share our food equally …”

 

 

 

All this takes place in the open of course but we have references to heat (fever) and later, the notion of slaves trying to dig through the city walls to safety:

 

 

 There was an old man on the ground a few feet away, moaning and staring up at the grey belly of the clouds. She knelt beside him, wrinkling her nose at the smell, and pushed back his dirty grey hair to feel his brow. “His flesh is on fire. I need water to bathe him. Seawater will serve. Marselen, will you fetch some for me? I need oil as well, for the pyre. Who will help me burn the dead?”

 

 

 

“No one was scratching,” said Jhiqui. “Scratching … how could they scratch?”

“With their hands,” said Missandei. “The bricks are old and crumbling. They are trying to claw their way into the city.”

“This would take them many years,” said Irri. “The walls are very thick. This is known.”

 

 

Grey Worm is the first to volunteer help. He chooses some Unsullied and they set to work. Later in the same chapter, we find out they worship a mysterious goddess, whose name must not be mentioned. She is variously otherwise known as the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle and the Mother of Hosts. The Unsullied, as former slaves answer to a secret goddess. Interesting. Grey Worm's name also evokes wyverns and similar creatures living in the earth beneath the 14 flames. 

 

So here we have Dany acting as a nurse, going to the place of horror and suffering, never minding that she might get infected, and bringing mercy to the people. 

 

 

Margery is another example. She makes an effort to visit the poor of KL, distributing food and comfort. Even though she knows about the riots during which the High Septon was killed and Lollys was raped, she also has no fear of danger to her person. At her wedding feast, she announces that left over food be given to the poor. Like Dany, she is well loved by the poor and disadvantaged. She hands out 'mercy' where possible. 

 

Queen Alysanne also comes to mind - she has a direct connection to the word 'gift'. Not only was she a good and kind queen, she also extends The Gift, increasing the area of sustainance for the Night's Watch. 

 

In all cases, we have women bringing this gift of mercy. 

 

I'm sure there are more examples but these come spontaneously to mind. Arya herself is associated with the 'positive' side of mercy through the Hound. She doesn't show mercy but it's a hint that 'the gift' can be seen from that point of view. And of course, the FM give this gift of mercy to those who no longer wish to endure suffering. 

 

 

 

The Wild Hunt

 

I've also been looking at the Wild Hunt and while I see it as a reference to the Others, I also see most of the list as wild hunts even though they do not appear to include ghosts. But actually, I think they do :)

 

 

- aGoT - The Mountain and his men raiding, burning and pillaging folk in the Riverlands => human war to come

- aCoK - Ser Amory attacking the holdfast at the Gods Eye, described as razing across the countryside as if they'd burn the lake if they could => more human war

- aSoS - The Fist of the wights on the NW => war to come with wights and Others; in aDwD it expands with the attack of Hardhome

- but also Nym's pack => protection and revenge... the hunters become hunted.

- aFfC - Remaining Bloody Mummers razing Saltpans

- but also BwB => they're becoming more organized hunting troups... again the hunters hunt the hunters

 

 

We have to add one more - Ramsay and his practice of hunting young women.

 

 

There is a hidden theme of spirit possession in the books, another thing I'm looking into. Those bolded and Ramsay belong in this category, imo. I can't go into all that here, but consider references to Ramsay and Rorge as beasts in human skin. Biter and the Mountain also qualify for this description. They appear more beast than man, so much so, I see it as an insult to beasts :).
From what we know about warging and skinchanging, controlling the animal spirit is essential to keeping control of the animal nature itself. Failing to do this means absorbing more and more of the characteristics of the creature, essentially resulting in a form of spirit-possession / take over of the animal nature. This is a lesson Bran learns from Jojen. Haggon also implies this in his lessons, as Varamyr recalls. Haggon lists the side-effects of skinchanging particular animals:

 

 

 The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. “Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who’ve tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue.”

 

 

 

 

So the man takes on the nature of the creature - skinchanging involves a mingling of spirits. What happens to people who have the gift of skinchanging but do not know it and are not taught to control it and use its power? Could they completely absorb the nature of the beast? I think so. It happens when a skinchanger dies and a dead skinchanger has no more control over the animal because he is.. well, dead.
Humans are in danger of living the beast nature even if they know they are skinchangers and consciously skinchange. How much more so if they do not know they possess an animal familiar and have never learned to control it? 

 

If I'm right, then all those hunts are enacted by 'possessed humans', which places them in the netherworld of spirits and ghosts. I'm not sure about Ser Armory but the rest fit. 

 

Beric himself, as leader of the BwB, can be regarded as a corporeal ghost. Like the wights, he's undead, not quite of the living and not quite of the dead, and Lady Stoneheart as well.

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I may be thinking too much here but with Arya as a cupbearer...drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire...

 

I've long thought that Arya and Dany will cross paths.  Any thoughts on Arya's role in that line?