All bias aside, who do you think is the best overall human being in the story?

[David Selig]

you have a right to your opinion, yes, I never said you didn't. But I have a right to mine as well, I just happen to not care about honor and admire Jaime for doing the same, for seeing through the fakeness of it and I value that (in a story like asoiaf) over any bad acts he may have done due to his bitterness.

Jaime only stopped caring about honor once people declared him honorless. Before that he cared a lot about it. Once he was the Kingslayer, he said "screw it" for mostly selfish reasons. If he can't be admired for being honorable, then honor sucks.

[INCBlackbird]

No, it proves that Jaime wasn't afraid. We haven't read Jaime in a scene where it was his life or someone else's, but even if we had, what difference does it make? Just because he may become afraid in any other situation, doesn't mean he was afraid in the Sept or when he tossed Bran out the window. He wasn't afraid. You are misreading the text to think otherwise.

No, conscious thought & instinct do NOT go hand in hand. Instinct is behavior without conscious thought. It's one or the other. Period. This should be an easy one for you because a quick dictionary read should be all that's required to correct this. Jaime did NOT instinctively toss Bran out the window, he made a conscious decision to do so.

Jaime IS NOT a morally good person.

Do you think that because someone says they're not afraid that they're not? or even when someone thinks they won't be that they're not. There's plenty of macho people out there who would like to believe they're not afraid, but all of that changes when they're in a situation when they're about to die. The only difference between them and me is that I am honest about it. I know I'd be afraid and I don't see any reason to lie to myself about it. Jaime clearly did.

 

So when people have learned how to fight and they're doing it automatically (you could say instinctively) they're not concious of it? come on...

In my opinion he is, you can disagree all you want but it won't change my mind.

[INCBlackbird]

Jaime only stopped caring about honor once people declared him honorless. Before that he cared a lot about it. Once he was the Kingslayer, he said "screw it" for mostly selfish reasons. If he can't be admired for being honorable, then honor sucks.

That's your interpretation, I have a different one.

[Wilnova]

 After realizing that the whole knight code thing was a complete lie, considering what he saw with aerys and than people even shame him for doing what he considers his best act, he becomes bitter, bitter about humanity, bitter about the fakeness of it all and he just decides to do his own thing and not care at all. and again, I don't blame him, who wouldn't become bitter if they're told that the right thing to do is to stand idelly by while the king rapes his wife brutally just because he said some stupid vows. And THIS is why I like Jaime, this is why I think he's a good person, he cared, there was a  while when he didn't care because he thought everything was fucked, but now he's changing his mind again.

 

You do realize that Jaime joined the Kingsguard to have illegal, incestual sex with his twin sister right? So he was joining an organization which has oaths of celibacy and was violating those oaths on the get go. Basically he was one of the reasons for whole knight's code and kingsguard oaths being a farce. And he did this long before seeing Aerys rape his wife.

 

Jaime is the perfect example of the spoiled, rich kid who has everything in life going his way, but makes the worst choices for purely selfish reasons. He was the favorite son of Tywin Lannister. Compared to folks like Tyrion and Jon he had it good. But he let himself be ruled by his dick instead of his brain and his fuckups have been consistantly disastrous for others.

 

This excuse of 'He saw Aerys rape his wife and became bitter' does not really justify his actions: Attempted child murder, murder,  adultery, war etc. People have suffered worse and are basically decent people. Take Dany for example. Lost her family, was abused by her brother and grew up like a beggar. She turned out to be a decent human being unlike Jaime.

[INCBlackbird]

 

You do realize that Jaime joined the Kingsguard to have illegal, incestual sex with his twin sister right? So he was joining an organization which has oaths of celibacy and was violating those oaths on the get go. Basically he was one of the reasons for whole knight's code and kingsguard oaths being a farce. And he did this long before seeing Aerys rape his wife.

 

Jaime is the perfect example of the spoiled, rich kid who has everything in life going his way, but makes the worst choices for purely selfish reasons. He was the favorite son of Tywin Lannister. Compared to folks like Tyrion and Jon he had it good. But he let himself be ruled by his dick instead of his brain and his fuckups have been consistantly disastrous for others.

 

This excuse of 'He saw Aerys rape his wife and became bitter' does not really justify his actions: Attempted child murder, murder,  adultery, war etc. People have suffered worse and are basically decent people. Take Dany for example. Lost her family, was abused by her brother and grew up like a beggar. She turned out to be a decent human being unlike Jaime.

Yes I know that, I think everybody should have the freedom to do with their own body whatever they want so I couldn't care less that it was considered illigal, killing the king was illigal, it was still the right thing to do.

 

I disagree that he made his choices for selfish reasons, was saving all of king's landing selfish? not to mention that he was traumatised by what aerys did, as I mentioned before he talks about "going away inside" That's what traumatised people do to deal with horrible situations. If he was so selfish why would he be trauamtised by what happened to other people?

I don't see how jaime is guilty of "war"? and really? you're going to mention Daenerys, I don't think she's a horrible person but if you're going to talk about the things Jaime did wrong let's do that with Daenerys as well; Burned people alive, crucified 163 people, had people tortured.... Just like Jaime she means well but does the wrong thing sometimes, just on a much bigger scale than Jaime.

[sweetsunray]

It's not about Jaime having "the right" to do that, it's about not expecting people to be perfect. I'm not perfect, so I don't expect others to be. I don't think that Jaime pushing Bran was a good thing, but I understand why he did it and I don't blame him for it because I think most people would have made the same decision in his situation and it doesn't make him a bad person to me.

 

There doesn't need to be textual evidence if you ask me, everyone is scared, we are still animals and we all have a survival instinct, we're scared of death. That's normal. and yes, I do project myself because when I'm gonna judge someone I ask myself the question what I would do. I can't expect others to do better than me, that'd be hypocritical. I can hope others would do better than me, and I can admire them if they do so but I can't condemn someone for doing something when I wouldn't have done any better.

 

I don't agree. I'll give you my assesment of his character: After realizing that the whole knight code thing was a complete lie, considering what he saw with aerys and than people even shame him for doing what he considers his best act, he becomes bitter, bitter about humanity, bitter about the fakeness of it all and he just decides to do his own thing and not care at all. and again, I don't blame him, who wouldn't become bitter if they're told that the right thing to do is to stand idelly by while the king rapes his wife brutally just because he said some stupid vows. And THIS is why I like Jaime, this is why I think he's a good person, he cared, there was a  while when he didn't care because he thought everything was fucked, but now he's changing his mind again.

 

you have a right to your opinion, yes, I never said you didn't. But I have a right to mine as well, I just happen to not care about honor and admire Jaime for doing the same, for seeing through the fakeness of it and I value that (in a story like asoiaf) over any bad acts he may have done due to his bitterness.

 

This thread doesn't ask for the "not-so-perfect-sometimes-completely-immoral" character. It asks for the "best".

 

Stop talking in generalizations. No, not everyone is scared! And not everyone is scared of the same thing. Plenty of people around, including healthy empathic individuals, who do not panic or experience fear. Fear is an emotion, which a person experiences after cognitively processing the physical sensations (aka the 'feeling') related to fear. Feeling =/= emotion. You've got a comfort zone of activities and environment for people where they know no fear, there is the exploration zone where something is partly unfamiliar but is exciting, and then there's the panic zone. You've got people with tiny comfort zones, no exploration zone and huge panic zones. I have no panic zone, and I am extremely comfortable with exploring. And in actual life threatening situations I'm the pragmatic, cool headed one. Whether in a hurricane sheltering with a group of people I'm responsible for, some rafting incident with everyone in a panic, or the time I was involved in a car accident as a 13 year old on my bike - I don't experience fear. I was 13, had hit my head on the front window, and everyone was fussing around me, and I told them "can someone please search for the insurance papers in my bag," and the adults around me were flabbergasted about my ability to keep cool. Sure, from great heights I can have a tummy sensation, but I do not process that as "fear". It's just a nameless sensation that I can ignore if I want to. And I'm not scared of death. That's not an idle macho thing to say - I've been in life threatening situations. I just kept cool and my reasoning and figured out rationally what I needed to do. There is nothing to be scared of about death imo, because well, when you're dead you wouldn't even be aware of it. It's what comes before death that might be scary.

 

I was not talking about honor. And I'm not arguing that those vows are written in stone. What I said was that to be one of the best people the character must be able to sacrifice something of himself. The fact that he intended to sneak of after slaying Aerys, thought of letting someone else be the patsy for it, and is bitter about the smear on his reputation for it, shows he's completely unwilling to pay the price for his own choices and actions. It's not about honor, but about taking responsibility, and Jaime never does. BR murdered a possible Blackfyre rival in an underhanded way. He didn't try to wriggle out of the consequences, sneak off, or was bitter about whatever name people called him. He was sentenced to take the black and he did, for many many years.

 

Your reasoning of "I can't expect people to be better than myself" results in a list of mediocrity at best.

[INCBlackbird]

 

This thread doesn't ask for the "not-so-perfect-sometimes-completely-immoral" character. It asks for the "best".

 

Stop talking in generalizations. No, not everyone is scared! And not everyone is scared of the same thing. Plenty of people around, including healthy empathic individuals, who do not panic or experience fear. Fear is an emotion, which a person experiences after cognitively processing the physical sensations (aka the 'feeling') related to fear. Feeling =/= emotion. You've got a comfort zone of activities and environment for people where they know no fear, there is the exploration zone where something is partly unfamiliar but is exciting, and then there's the panic zone. You've got people with tiny comfort zones, no exploration zone and huge panic zones. I have no panic zone, and I am extremely comfortable with exploring. And in actual life threatening situations I'm the pragmatic, cool headed one. Whether in a hurricane sheltering with a group of people I'm responsible for, some rafting incident with everyone in a panic, or the time I was involved in a car accident as a 13 year old on my bike - I don't experience fear. I was 13, had hit my head on the front window, and everyone was fussing around me, and I told them "can someone please search for the insurance papers in my bag," and the adults around me were flabbergasted about my ability to keep cool. Sure, from great heights I can have a tummy sensation, but I do not process that as "fear". It's just a nameless sensation that I can ignore if I want to. And I'm not scared of death. That's not an idle macho thing to say - I've been in life threatening situations. I just kept cool and my reasoning and figured out rationally what I needed to do. There is nothing to be scared of about death imo, because well, when you're dead you wouldn't even be aware of it. It's what comes before death that might be scary.

 

I was not talking about honor. And I'm not arguing that those vows are written in stone. What I said was that to be one of the best people the character must be able to sacrifice something of himself. The fact that he intended to sneak of after slaying Aerys, thought of letting someone else be the patsy for it, and is bitter about the smear on his reputation for it, shows he's completely unwilling to pay the price for his own choices and actions. It's not about honor, but about taking responsibility, and Jaime never does. BR murdered a possible Blackfyre rival in an underhanded way. He didn't try to wriggle out of the consequences, sneak off, or was bitter about whatever name people called him. He was sentenced to take the black and he did, for many many years.

 

Your reasoning of "I can't expect people to be better than myself" results in a list of mediocrity at best.

Yes, we're talking about the best, but no one is perfect so the best for me is still not a perfect person. No one is perfect in real life and thankfully no character in asoiaf is perfect.

I find that very admirable about you that you can keep your cool and not panic, but that's not the same as fear, would you argue that you're never afraid? and I agree, death isn't scary to me, but dying is. and you just said yourself that it's what comes before death, it's about knowing you're gonna die and how it'll happen that is what most people are afraid of I imagine, it's what I'm afraid and I believe 99% of the people are afraid of that, I'm sure there's some exceptions, some people who have gone through so many horrible things that they're not afraid anymore but most people are. i'm also sure that a lot of people think "i'm not scared of dying" till the moment it's actually about to happen.

 

again, that's your opinion. I respectfully disagree, I don't think anyone should pay for doing something that wasn't even morally wrong even though the law says it's illigal because if it's not morally wrong, the law is.

 

and again, I disagree, it results in me being able to see the good in people when others don't and it results in being humble and especially it results in not judging people when I feel like I have no authority to judge them. and that results in me not being a hypocrite, unlike most of humanity who are all about judging people for doing this and that and thatwhen they wouldn't have done any better in that situation.

[Orphalesion]

Jaime only stopped caring about honor once people declared him honorless. Before that he cared a lot about it. Once he was the Kingslayer, he said "screw it" for mostly selfish reasons. If he can't be admired for being honorable, then honor sucks.

 

That is the crux of his character for the early novels "Everybody treats me like an honourless piece of shit for doing the right thing? Fine! Then I'll be an honourless piece of shit from now on!" It was basically a childish act of defiance. I'd argue Jaime was stuck in arrested development between his murder of Aerys and his travels with Brienne. 

[Wilnova]

 

I don't see how jaime is guilty of "war"? and really? you're going to mention Daenerys, I don't think she's a horrible person but if you're going to talk about the things Jaime did wrong let's do that with Daenerys as well; Burned people alive, crucified 163 people, had people tortured.... Just like Jaime she means well but does the wrong thing sometimes, just on a much bigger scale than Jaime.

 

You don't see how Jaime is guilty war?!

 

1. He engaged in adultery with the Queen

2. This resulted in three bastards

3. When this was discovered, the realm was plunged into war

4. The Riverlands were ravaged by Lannister armies with Jaime heading part of the Lannister war effort until he was captured.

 

Now do you see?

 

And are you seriously saying that Jaime is a better person than Dany? That a person who attempted to murder a child to cover up his adultery is better than a person trying to eradicate slavery? And Jaime means well? When has he meant well for anyone? He has always been looking out for number one and the Lannisters. Dany actually stood up to the Khalasar to prevent rape. She took a risk doing that. Jaime only stands up for anyone when there is no risk involved in it for him. He did not lift a hand to help poor Jeyne Poole. Dany is a far better person than Jaime Lannister and I still would not name her the best overall human being in the story.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

Yes, we're talking about the best, but no one is perfect so the best for me is still not a perfect person. No one is perfect in real life and thankfully no character in asoiaf is perfect.

I find that very admirable about you that you can keep your cool and not panic, but that's not the same as fear, would you argue that you're never afraid? and I agree, death isn't scary to me, but dying is. and you just said yourself that it's what comes before death, it's about knowing you're gonna die and how it'll happen that is what most people are afraid of I imagine, it's what I'm afraid and I believe 99% of the people are afraid of that, I'm sure there's some exceptions, some people who have gone through so many horrible things that they're not afraid anymore but most people are. i'm also sure that a lot of people think "i'm not scared of dying" till the moment it's actually about to happen.

 

again, that's your opinion. I respectfully disagree, I don't think anyone should pay for doing something that wasn't even morally wrong even though the law says it's illigal because if it's not morally wrong, the law is.

 

and again, I disagree, it results in me being able to see the good in people when others don't and it results in being humble and especially it results in not judging people when I feel like I have no authority to judge them. and that results in me not being a hypocrite, unlike most of humanity who are all about judging people for doing this and that and thatwhen they wouldn't have done any better in that situation.

 

Life ain't fair, and even the morally right choices come with payment, instead of reward. That's why doing the morally right thing is often harder to do. If you don't feel you have the authority to judge a character, then why are you posting in threads like these?

[sweetsunray]

 

 

 

You don't see how Jaime is guilty war?!

 

1. He engaged in adultery with the Queen

2. This resulted in three bastards

3. When this was discovered, the realm was plunged into war

4. The Riverlands were ravaged by Lannister armies with Jaime heading part of the Lannister war effort until he was captured.

 

Now do you see?

 

And are you seriously saying that Jaime is a better person than Dany? That a person who attempted to murder a child to cover up his adultery is better than a person trying to eradicate slavery? And Jaime means well? When has he meant well for anyone? He has always been looking out for number one and the Lannisters. Dany actually stood up to the Khalasar to prevent rape. She took a risk doing that. Jaime only stands up for anyone when there is no risk involved in it for him. He did not lift a hand to help poor Jeyne Poole. Dany is a far better person than Jaime Lannister and I still would not name her the best overall human being in the story.

 

 

 

 

Apparently INCBlackbird can't see that, no. For INCBlackbird as far as I can understand her reasoning, it's the law's and culture's fault, because Jaime has a right to fuck anyone consensually he wants, father the childen with the woman of his choice, and it was nobody's business. It's just wrong of society to expect a man who's not the king not to fuck the queen and father her children and help them be put on the throne. He's a better man than all the rest of society, because he has a right to do what he wants, and fuck the consequences, because judging people is hypocritical. All those laws and views on bastards are immoral, so Jaime did nothing wrong there, and so he's not complicit for the war.

[INCBlackbird]

 

 

 

You don't see how Jaime is guilty war?!

 

1. He engaged in adultery with the Queen

2. This resulted in three bastards

3. When this was discovered, the realm was plunged into war

4. The Riverlands were ravaged by Lannister armies with Jaime heading part of the Lannister war effort until he was captured.

 

Now do you see?

 

And are you seriously saying that Jaime is a better person than Dany? That a person who attempted to murder a child to cover up his adultery is better than a person trying to eradicate slavery? And Jaime means well? When has he meant well for anyone? He has always been looking out for number one and the Lannisters. Dany actually stood up to the Khalasar to prevent rape. She took a risk doing that. Jaime only stands up for anyone when there is no risk involved in it for him. He did not lift a hand to help poor Jeyne Poole. Dany is a far better person than Jaime Lannister and I still would not name her the best overall human being in the story.

 

I don't agree that he's guilty of war when it wasn't his intension to start a war, than many characters are guilty of war.

 

Yes I am and if you think it's ok to crucify people in the name of eradicating slavery we have nothing to say to eachother. That's one of the most horrible ways to kill someone and no one deserves that, not to mention that many of them were probably innocent as Dany did nothing to investigate who the guilty ones were.

[sweetsunray]

I don't agree that he's guilty of war when it wasn't his intension to start a war, than many characters are guilty of war.

 

Yes I am and if you think it's ok to crucify people in the name of eradicating slavery we have nothing to say to eachother. That's one of the most horrible ways to kill someone and no one deserves that, not to mention that many of them were probably innocent as Dany did nothing to investigate who the guilty ones were.

 

Perfect defense line in a murder/manslaughter case. I didn't intend for the man I beat up to die, so I'm not guilty of him dying. Or perfect line for a man who doesn't want to take responsibility of fathering a kid - I didn't intend for you to get preggers when I fucked you, so I can't be the father. Or how about, "I didn't intend to kill anyone when I decided to sit behind the steering wheel drunk. I can't be found guilty for killing that whole family in the other car."

[INCBlackbird]

 

Life ain't fair, and even the morally right choices come with payment, instead of reward. That's why doing the morally right thing is often harder to do. If you don't feel you have the authority to judge a character, then why are you posting in threads like these?

oh I agree with that, I agree that life isn't fair, it very much isn't and if there's anything I hate it's the unfairness. I remember that I got really annoyed in school when I had to stand up when a teacher came in because I thought it was really unfair that the school considered the teachers worth more than the students simply because they're older, I don't agree with that. everyone is equally valuable and everybody should respect eachother automatically, and everyone gets my respect I only retract it when they do something to not deserve it anymore but I give it to everyone as a default and I think that should be the same for everyone but either way I got carried away. I also agree that the morally right thing is often harder to do and that's why many people don't do it and I can't blame them for it. I do admire people  who do do the morally right thing (that's why Davos was first in my list) even when it's hard, but I also won't call someone who doesn't a bad person perse, because we ARE  flawed, we aren't perfect and I don't demand someone to be perfect in order to consider them a good person. good people sometimes stand in front of hard choices and they might not have the courage to do the right thing but that doesn't make them any less of a good person in my opinion. Well I'm not judging characters here, I'm not saying "this and that and that character is a bad person" I'm doing quite the oppesite, I'm saying which characters I consider good people.

[INCBlackbird]

 

Perfect defense line in a murder/manslaughter case. I didn't intend for the man I beat up to die, so I'm not guilty of him dying. Or perfect line for a man who doesn't want to take responsibility of fathering a kid - I didn't intend for you to get preggers when I fucked you, so I can't be the father.

well no because Jaime didn't do it himself, he was having sex with his sister, he wasn't killing anyone. Do you also think Cat, Ned, Lysa and even Tyrion are guilty of war?

 

and for the record there is a very big difference between someone who kills someone without intending to kill them and someone who does it intensionally.

[sweetsunray]

oh I agree with that, I agree that life isn't fair, it very much isn't and if there's anything I hate it's the unfairness. I remember that I got really annoyed in school when I had to stand up when a teacher came in because I thought it was really unfair that the school considered the teachers worth more than the students simply because they're older, I don't agree with that. everyone is equally valuable and everybody should respect eachother automatically, and everyone gets my respect I only retract it when they do something to not deserve it anymore but I give it to everyone as a default and I think that should be the same for everyone but either way I got carried away. I also agree that the morally right thing is often harder to do and that's why many people don't do it and I can't blame them for it. I do admire people  who do do the morally right thing (that's why Davos was first in my list) even when it's hard, but I also won't call someone who doesn't a bad person perse, because we ARE  flawed, we aren't perfect and I don't demand someone to be perfect in order to consider them a good person. good people sometimes stand in front of hard choices and they might not have the courage to do the right thing but that doesn't make them any less of a good person in my opinion. Well I'm not judging characters here, I'm not saying "this and that and that character is a bad person" I'm doing quite the oppesite, I'm saying which characters I consider good people.

 

The last is just as much a judgement call as any other. And this thread is not about who are "good people" but the "best".

[Lady Sharya]

Do you think that because someone says they're not afraid that they're not? or even when someone thinks they won't be that they're not. There's plenty of macho people out there who would like to believe they're not afraid, but all of that changes when they're in a situation when they're about to die. The only difference between them and me is that I am honest about it. I know I'd be afraid and I don't see any reason to lie to myself about it. Jaime clearly did.
 
So when people have learned how to fight and they're doing it automatically (you could say instinctively) they're not concious of it? come on...
In my opinion he is, you can disagree all you want but it won't change my mind.

Yes, when a character says he isn't afraid, thinks he isn't afraid, is not in imediate danger, and acts unafraid, the character IS NOT afraid. Again, you are misreading the books.

Yet again you are wrong. Instinct is automatic: Thought requires processing time. This is what makes Jaime a good swordfighter, he doesn't have to think about it anymore...it's instinctive. It's just like driving a car, once you've practiced enough, you don't have to think about it...it's instinctive.

You have ZERO textual evidence that Jaime was afraid when he tossed Bran out the window. We have argued Theon, Bran, Sansa, Arya & Pia. In all argument you require textual evidence from posters. Are you now suggesting none is required? That would be, dare I say it.........hypocritical of you.:)
You are honest about being afraid...but not about being wrong.;)

[sweetsunray]

well no because Jaime didn't do it himself, he was having sex with his sister, he wasn't killing anyone. Do you also think Cat, Ned, Lysa and even Tyrion are guilty of war?

 

and for the record there is a very big difference between someone who kills someone without intending to kill them and someone who does it intensionally.

 

Having sex, and making bastards, and making them out to be Robert's children, keeping it secret. Pushing Bran out of the window is what put Cat and Ned on the Lannister trail. And yes, I do consider Cat, Ned, Lysa, LF, Varys, Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, and Tyrion as complicit in the war. But without Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella being Jaime's children there wouldn't be a war at all, would it? No need for Pycelle to have Ser Hugh poison Arryn. No need to induce an accidental death for Robert. No need for Ned even ever going south and confront Cersei. No need to claim Joffrey isn't the king. No need to push a child out of the window and no catspaw either, and so Cat not arresting Tyrion.

 

Yes, it's called manslaughter and it lands your ass in jail just as well. It doesn't get you off the hook of being found guilty.

[Orphalesion]

@ Everyone

 

"Guilty of war" does not exist in the English language. Somebody can be "guilty of starting a war" "guilty of being a warmonger" "guilty of instating a war" and "guilty of actions leading to a war" but saying someone is "guilty of war" is like saying someone is "guilty of fire" instead of arson.

 

Jaime is not a warmonger and he did not start a war.

 

But his actions (like the actions of other characters) certainly lead to the start of a war. Him fucking his sister, for instance. He did not father bastards with the intention of it starting a war, but it was still morally and legally wrong to do so.

 

Though now I'm wondering if him attacking the Hand of the King (and the sub-regent of a whole kingdom) without the leave of his sovereign could be considered an illegal act of war...he certainly broke the King's peace in KL.

[HexMachina]

Yes I know that, I think everybody should have the freedom to do with their own body whatever they want so I couldn't care less that it was considered illigal, killing the king was illigal, it was still the right thing to do.
 
I disagree that he made his choices for selfish reasons, was saving all of king's landing selfish? not to mention that he was traumatised by what aerys did, as I mentioned before he talks about "going away inside" That's what traumatised people do to deal with horrible situations. If he was so selfish why would he be trauamtised by what happened to other people?
I don't see how jaime is guilty of "war"? and really? you're going to mention Daenerys, I don't think she's a horrible person but if you're going to talk about the things Jaime did wrong let's do that with Daenerys as well; Burned people alive, crucified 163 people, had people tortured.... Just like Jaime she means well but does the wrong thing sometimes, just on a much bigger scale than Jaime.

Everyone should have freedom to do with their own bodies what they want, sure. But it stops being a private business when the product of their affair is passed of as a legitimate child of the King so the two can continue enjoying all the benefits that come with being Queen and a Kingsguard. Either they say to hell with the consequences, and elope to Essos or something to continue their relationship, or they accept that passing off their children as the Kings is wrong and ,you know, don't do it. You can't have it both ways.