All bias aside, who do you think is the best overall human being in the story?

[sweetsunray]

I agree wholy with b, but that's my opinion.  I'm unsure of a.  I would like to say that the majority of people would not do such a thing, but I believe that the majority of people probably do value their own lives, and the lives of their family, over other lives, in a pinch. Doubt they would do it for the same exact reasons as Jaime that you pointed out.  Either way, I'm not sure what utilitarianism has to do with either thing.  Did someone make the argument that killing one little boy was preferable to having 3 children and 2 adults executed?  If that is the case, then you are completely right to bring in utilitarianism, but in this case it is an argument of a poster, rather than the reasoning behind Jaime, and you are right in pointing out that this is not the manner in which the majority of people morally reason. 

 

That is exactly what happened. More all causality connection between Cersei's and Jaime's prior actions in creating the whole situation in the first place was defended as it being their personal right to fuck whomever they want, choose whatever children they have, and it not being anybody's business; that they have the right to deceive the whole realm, because it's their own body and private life. :bang:

[Raving Stark the Mad]

 

That is exactly what happened. More all causality connection between Cersei's and Jaime's prior actions in creating the whole situation in the first place was defended as it being their personal right to fuck whomever they want, choose whatever children they have, and it not being anybody's business; that they have the right to deceive the whole realm, because it's their own body and private life. :bang:

Even if I grant that they have these moral rights; to fuck anybody they want to, to have children, etc; the fact remains that they understood that it was illegal and uncustomary in the land they lived in.  Hence they understood the repercussions of their actions and made a distinct choice to accept those risks. 

[sweetsunray]

Even if I grant that they have these moral rights; to fuck anybody they want to, to have children, etc; the fact remains that they understood that it was illegal and uncustomary in the land they lived in.  Hence they understood the repercussions of their actions and made a distinct choice to accept those risks. 

 

Exactly.

[Kal-L]

Davos and Brienne.

[md-shafty]

I'm going to go with Dunk. But in current time period The Ned. Just a good dude.

 

Jon Arryn as well. Always thought he must be a a pretty good guy to go to war for his two wards. Then devote the later part of his life to one of them. Even if he made mistakes witht he Realm that man cared.

[Haldon Halfmaester]

I would say Sam Tarly, who has done well with the shit stick that has been delivered to him. He is a friendly person and doesn't want to hurt anybody, and is the only person who is devoting most of his time to figuring out how the Others can be destroyed, which could lead to an entire continent of people being saved.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Even if I grant that they have these moral rights; to fuck anybody they want to, to have children, etc; the fact remains that they understood that it was illegal and uncustomary in the land they lived in.  Hence they understood the repercussions of their actions and made a distinct choice to accept those risks. 

 

But then they didn't accept the risks. Hence, the moral cowardice.

 

I would have great respect for Jaime (and for Cersei too) if they had simply borne the negative repercussions of their actions, even if only to flee to another continent and live without the perks of being noble and royal. But I cannot have any respect for an argument which posits that they had no other choice but attempted murder because they were engaging in behavior which actually had a higher moral component than their society's regulations.

 

Back in the 1960s, some of my friends fled to Canada rather than be drafted to fight in Vietnam. I think they were absolutely right to oppose that immoral war. However, one of my friends went to jail and served his sentence rather than be drafted to Vietnam. He's the one who operated with higher moral courage, not the others.

[INCBlackbird]

 

However, it seems that INCBlackbird is representing the belief that "most people would not sacrifice their own life for the life of an innocent" as somehow highly moral. It isn't.

I didn't say it was highly moral, of course ideally a person would sacrifice themselves for someone else, I just don't think that many people would actually do that and I don't think it makes them bad people. I don't expect people to be perfect. How could I? I'm not perfect, it'd be hypocritical of me to expect others to be.

[Nic.]

Probably Sam. 

[INCBlackbird]

 

Read the whole article. They're first introducing what research has been done, but then explain what type of research hasn't been done, and that they aim to see whether there's a correlation that people who value the life of others less, more callous and manipulative and the type of answers on these type of moral dilemmas. And no, they did not just have psychopaths answer. They had 3 groups answer - psychopaths, machiavelists and neither of those. But even when people were clinically neither of those, and answered utilitarian, they still scored high on both scales. The conclusion is far more enlightening, and they actually argue that philosophically claiming that the "utilitarian choice" is the better moral choice is basically saying that the more immorally inclined people make more morally sound decisions; that criminals make higher moral choices than non-criminals. And that of course is complete horseshit. 

I read the whole article now but I don't see what it has to do with my argument, it's not about Jaime pushing Bran out the window according to the choice off "well, more people will die if I don't." it's about him doing it out of fear for his life.

[Chancho]

I agree with this 100%. I can't beleive so few even acknowledge edmure :-(

True, Edmure is a great liege and person.

[INCBlackbird]

 

I don't think it's just a question though of what many people would do. But, rather a question, of what people ought to do ideally.

 

Also, the problem with applying some kind of utilitarian defense to Jaime's actions with regard to Bran is that Jaime is a bit culpable in creating the situation. That just rubs many people the wrong way and I think rightly so.

 

I'm by no means a Jaime hater, but still I just don't think he should get a free pass for what he did to Bran.

 

I agree that ideally people would sacrifice themselves but as you said, that's ideally, and I don't expect people to be ideal, I'm not and I'm not such a hypocrite to expect it of others. and I don't think someone is a bad person for not being ideal. That's the point.

 

and I know that a lot of people find that important but personally I don't, partially because I don't think they did anything wrong because the law is shit they shouldn't have to follow an immoral law and partially because it's not like they knew beforehand this was gonna happen, it was an accident that Bran happened to be climbing that tower at that moment. How could they know Bran even climbed...?

 

I don't absolve him either, I just don't think it makes him a bad person and he still makes my list of best people in the story for qualities I admire about him.

[INCBlackbird]

 

That is exactly what happened. More all causality connection between Cersei's and Jaime's prior actions in creating the whole situation in the first place was defended as it being their personal right to fuck whomever they want, choose whatever children they have, and it not being anybody's business; that they have the right to deceive the whole realm, because it's their own body and private life. :bang:

so suddenly it IS about that again? you can disagree with me all you want on this, it's a personal opinion but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have my personal opinions about not caring what is and isn't illigal when the law is immoral anyways.

 

btw, i'm from Belgium too. I would virtually high five you but I'm not sure if you'd want to...

[nobleisthyname]

While I wouldn't call him the best human being in the story I too am surprised at the lack of mentions of Robb, especially given a lot of the other names being mentioned. 

[sweetsunray]

I read the whole article now but I don't see what it has to do with my argument, it's not about Jaime pushing Bran out the window according to the choice off "well, more people will die if I don't." it's about him doing it out of fear for his life.

 

That's not what you argued initially.

[INCBlackbird]

 

That's not what you argued initially.

Yes it was :

 

I read the first part of the article you provided, will read the rest later because my boyfriend is gonna be here in 15 minutes and I’m a slow reader and I still wanna reply, but as far as I have read now: First of all, they’re talking about killing someone to save others. Second, they’re talking about being comfortable with doing that. Then there’s also this “a variety of researchers have shown that individuals with higher working memory capacity and those who are more deliberative thinkers are, indeed, more likely to approve of utilitarian solutions” It says in this article that psychopathy is just another possibility. And that’s logical because yes, psychopaths don’t value other human beings. I value other human beings, and as I said if I had to make the choice between my life and someone else life, I am honest in saying that I would chose my life, not because I think I am more valuable than the other person, I think we are both equally valuable, but I am scared of death, I’m not that brave and I would never claim to be and therefor I don’t expect others to be, how could I?

And for the record, I probably wouldn’t sacrifice a life for several others because I value people as individuals. Not to mention that I couldn’t do that. But that is a very different issue from it being my life versus someone else’ life.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I read the whole article now but I don't see what it has to do with my argument, it's not about Jaime pushing Bran out the window according to the choice off "well, more people will die if I don't." it's about him doing it out of fear for his life.

 

That's plainly wrong, ignoring Jaime's own POV and an unfounded interpetation that does disservice to a great character.

Jaime is not fearful, he's reckless.

 

Fear is not Jaime's concern when he pushes Bran:

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

 

No fear, just loathing (no pun intended). Later on, when Jaime is free of previous attachemts and determined to live by his own standards and live by them, he also explains what exactly is that he loaths:

“Her Grace is in mourning. And why would she be wanting to see the likes of you?”

Because I’m her lover, and the father of her murdered son, he wanted to say. “Who in seven hells are you?”

...

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons...”

“The Others can take the septons.”

...

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this...”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle... Jaime, we must be careful.”

“I am sick of being careful.

...

“Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.”

“He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.”

 

Jaime clearly loaths hiding and all the lies.

The excerpt also exposes other misconstructions that are done in regards to the situation, showing that they clearly knew the potential consequences, that jaime not only did he not fear, but that he did not care, that -not so deep inside- he'd welcome exposition, that the reason they didn't chose another path is that Cersei wants the throne and so on.

[sweetsunray]

I read the whole article now but I don't see what it has to do with my argument, it's not about Jaime pushing Bran out the window according to the choice off "well, more people will die if I don't." it's about him doing it out of fear for his life.

 

That's not what you argued initially

 

I agree that ideally people would sacrifice themselves but as you said, that's ideally, and I don't expect people to be ideal, I'm not and I'm not such a hypocrite to expect it of others. and I don't think someone is a bad person for not being ideal. That's the point.

 

and I know that a lot of people find that important but personally I don't, partially because I don't think they did anything wrong because the law is shit they shouldn't have to follow an immoral law and partially because it's not like they knew beforehand this was gonna happen, it was an accident that Bran happened to be climbing that tower at that moment. How could they know Bran even climbed...?

 

I don't absolve him either, I just don't think it makes him a bad person and he still makes my list of best people in the story for qualities I admire about him.

 

This thread is about the "best people", not about the "far from ideal" people. All you did in this thread was try to absolve him - it was his right, nobody's business, he had the right to throw an innocent kid out of the window, yadayada. Nothing but arguments that do not recognize that accountability, responsibility for the effects caused by his own choices are part of higher morality.

 

I admire Arya greatly for a lot of stuff, but I'm not going to advocate that she's the best person in the books, and one of the reasons I'd never mention her in my "best people" list even if I were to include kids. But I do hold her in higher esteem than Jaime, because at least she takes responsibiilty for her choices and actions and owns her mistakes. Jaime has barely made such steps at all. He's made steps in the good direction by sending the Mountain's men off, ordering the hostages the Freys hold to be sent to CR or KL... but he hasn't owed up to the damage he brought on to Bran, the Starks, the North, the RL, and the realm, all because he felt his right to fuck his sister while getting the perks of KG and her being Queen superceded everyone else's right to live. Whatever good he did by killing Aerys and his pyromancers, he completely undid by going that route. If he ends up surviving long enough to the moment when Cersei attempts to burn KL with wildfire just like Aerys wanted once, it'll be a huge smack around the head for him, hopefully to finally wake him his complicitly in all the madness. And it's worse imo with Tyrion - he's disgusted by it all, and yet he completely collaborates with it, and then daring to believe he'll bring "justice" - only one who gets his just deserve is Slynt and Tywin.

 

The minimal ingredient for being a flewed but "good" person is recognizing responsibility, the ability to hold yourself accountable. The second is a certain amount of restraint and self-sacrifice when it comes to "myself over others". That's what it takes for "goodness". To be amongst the "best" you need to be able to put others before yourself. Jaime so far has done that only once in all of his life - when he jumped in the bear pit. But beyond that, we haven't see him do that at all. He killed Aerys while his father's army was in the city, sacking it. He sends someone else to find Sansa or Arya for him. And pacifying the RL when the war's but all done and fought for - doesn't require much sacrifice at all, nor even inconveniences him. 

.

[INCBlackbird]

 

 

That's plainly wrong, ignoring Jaime's own POV and an unfounded interpetation that does disservice to a great character.

Jaime is not fearful, he's reckless.

 

Fear is not Jaime's concern when he pushes Bran:

The man looked over at the woman. "The things I do for love," he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove.

 

No fear, just loathing (no pun intended). Later on, when Jaime is free of previous attachemts and determined to live by his own standards and live by them, he also explains what exactly is that he loaths:

“Her Grace is in mourning. And why would she be wanting to see the likes of you?”

Because I’m her lover, and the father of her murdered son, he wanted to say. “Who in seven hells are you?”

...

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons...”

“The Others can take the septons.”

...

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this...”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle... Jaime, we must be careful.”

“I am sick of being careful.

...

“Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.”

“He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.”

 

Jaime clearly loaths hiding and all the lies.

The excerpt also exposes other misconstructions that are done in regards to the situation, showing that they clearly knew the potential consequences, that jaime not only did he not fear, but that he did not care, that -not so deep inside- he'd welcome exposition, that the reason they didn't chose another path is that Cersei wants the throne and so on.

 

How does any of that negate that Jaime feared for his life? Yes he loathed hiding, he also loathes the system he lives in that's completely corrupt and makes it nessacary for him them to hide. Either way every single person has a survival instinct, even people who really want to die need to kill themselves in a way that they can't go back because our body demands us to stay alive. Jaime might think he doesn't fear death but everybody does, even Theon fears death (he fears torture more obviously and he'd rather die than be tortured but he still fears death and still doesn't really want to die)

[lakin1013]

Since best is rather vague, I am listing those characters that I think operate with a moral code in place and that their moral code is to think of, and respect others, like a very basic Golden Rule.  This is not a list of 'perfect people' by any means but these people seem to respect others, respect themselves, and can make decisions that put others first. 

 

Ned
Jon

Davos
Dany

Sam