Lion of the West Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 You don't think Jaime could have gotten him into a private chamber under the presence of safety, and simply kept him there until the rebels came beating down the door? You give Jaime far too little credit. ;) Actually, no. If I recall Aerys had just given Jaime the order to go and kill his father and return with the head to Aerys, while Aerys had summoned the Pyromancer to ignite the city. I don't think there was time or oppertunity to make Aerys go just about anywhere, and loyalists could be on them at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Jaime could have knocked him out with a good blow over the head... Though I ssuppose he was not exactly thinking rationally at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Jaime could have knocked him out with a good blow over the head... Though I ssuppose he was not exactly thinking rationally at that point. "A good blow over the head" can be quite fatal. Or crippling. Or it can knock the guy out only for a few minutes. Many different things, not exactly predictable (well, at least not for someone without maester's training), can happen to a person who's received one of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegrM Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Jaime could have knocked him out with a good blow over the head... Though I ssuppose he was not exactly thinking rationally at that point. And... what? left him to be killed? Chained him up and wait for him to be killed? Best case Jaime just killed him slower. and he can be like "It totally wasn't me that killed him, I just abandoned him in his hour of need and let other's kill him" Worst case Aerys/Jaime is discovered and Jaime's.... peaceful-ish oathbreaking is still announced to the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 "A good blow over the head" can be quite fatal. Or crippling. Or it can knock the guy out only for a few minutes. Many different things, not exactly predictable (well, at least not for someone without maester's training), can happen to a person who's received one of those. Still a sword to the torso was going to kill Aerys in any case, knocking him out might have as well, but he also might have survived and Jaime would not have been the "nasty evil Kingslayer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaegrM Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Still a sword to the torso was going to kill Aerys in any case, knocking him out might have as well, but he also might have survived and Jaime would not have been the "nasty evil Kingslayer" Just an oathbreaker, coward and deserter? much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 You forget the circumstances. When your mad king tells you to kill your father and bring him his head, then threatens to burn the city down, you won't just knock him out and calmly watch him in a room until the rebels come. Jaime had to act quickly, he was probably horrified and angry because of Aerys's request so he did what his instincts told him - killed the crazy psycho. I don't think many of us would have done better than him in the heat of the moment. No I didn't forget the circumstances. The blood was still dripping when reinforcements arrived. A few more minutes would have saved him a lifetime of being called a kingslayer. The pyromancer was dead (rightfully so), he didn't NEED to kill Aerys to net the same results...minus the smear to honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Just an oathbreaker, coward and deserter? much better Better than "the guy who stood by while Aerys torched King's Landing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Actually, no. If I recall Aerys had just given Jaime the order to go and kill his father and return with the head to Aerys, while Aerys had summoned the Pyromancer to ignite the city. I don't think there was time or oppertunity to make Aerys go just about anywhere, and loyalists could be on them at any time. I don't think we have enough narration on the scene to analyze a second-by-second replay. Jaime didn't have to kill him in that moment, the pyromancer was dead and the rebels were at the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetPea Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 No I didn't forget the circumstances. The blood was still dripping when reinforcements arrived. A few more minutes would have saved him a lifetime of being called a kingslayer. The pyromancer was dead (rightfully so), he didn't NEED to kill Aerys to net the same results...minus the smear to honor. He didn't know when the reinforcements would arrive. But anyway, as others has mentione above, he wasn't thinking rationally, he just saw a sick fuck in front of him who wanted him to kill his father and burn the whole city down. He wasn't thinking about the consequences, he just wanted to kill him. I can't blame him for that. Sure, he didn't NEED to kill him. He could have waited and saved his honor.... or could he? He was sworn to protect him, why is it so much better to hand him over to his enemies to be most likely executed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 No I didn't forget the circumstances. The blood was still dripping when reinforcements arrived. A few more minutes would have saved him a lifetime of being called a kingslayer. The pyromancer was dead (rightfully so), he didn't NEED to kill Aerys to net the same results...minus the smear to honor. Well if he had the superpower of hindsight then he could have predicted that. As it stood he had no idea who would be next in, it could well have been loyalist guards and men willing to take orders of a mad king or even help him escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Better than "the guy who stood by while Aerys torched King's Landing" But Jaime had already killed the pyromancer Aerys gave the order to. All he had to do (& did) was prevent Aerys from giving anyone else those orders. I'm not saying Jaime didn't have cause to kill Aerys, but let's not pretend he had no other option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I don't understand why Robert didn't just "relieve" him of his vows. He "punishes" Jaime simbollically by kicking him out of the Kingsguard, and at the same time he gives Tywin back his heir. That would have been as big a reward to the Lannisters as Robert's marriage to Cersei. I've neve thought of this alternative! Doh! :lol: But as someone said above, Robert was an idiot... And only Joffrey (with Cersei) set the precedent with Ser Barristan Selmy. Anyway, the way I see it, this is just a way GRRM makes us readers think and debate about thorny moral issues. Is blind obedience to be prized above everything else? Above what you know (or think) to be morally right? What about free will? What about conflicting vows? What about personal responsiblilty? The issue of conflicting vows/oaths is brought up several times, especially with Jaime and then Brienne. Jaime became cynical as a teenager (protecting a bloodthisty, paranoid tyrant, listening to him abusing his wife etc.). Brienne, when we first meet her, has a very black-and-white view of vows/oaths, but I feel she's already beginning to question that view, and I think in the next book she'll really have to confront this moral dilemma, and perhaps gain an even deeper understanding of Jaime and what he did - if she's alive to think anything at all. :worried: As to the particular events on that fateful day. Jaime was very young, still a teenager. Raised by a demanding, emotionally cold father, trying to prove himself with military prowess, hopelessly and illicitly in love with his sister, severely traumatised by what he witnessed at Aerys's court (go away inside, that's what I did when Aerys roasted & hanged the Starks, he tells Brienne when rape seems imminent - sorry, I don't have my books with me so can't look up the exact quote). Moreover, he's always been known as someone who acts first, thinks second. Several other characters (most notably Tyrion and Cersei, who, of course, know him best) comment on this. It's only after he loses his sword hand that he begins to think about the consequences of his actions, and actually begins to grow up and become an adult. So, in the chaos and panic of the sack of KL, he probably acted on istinct first, thought second. Maybe that's how Ned found him, sitting on the Iron Throne, thinking about and slowly realising what he'd actually done. Like, "holy shit, I just killed the king..." He did wrong - he broke his KG oath in the worst way possible, but he did right - he saved hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Smallfolk he'd sworn to protect when he first became a knight, before he even became a KG. (People his father's troops then ravaged, raped and pillaged...) This whole oath/vow thing spills out all over the series, permeates much of it. The KG at the Tower of Joy, Jon's NW vows, bannermen's vows to their liege lords, lords' vows to the king... Jaime is an illustration of this aspect of a feudal society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talvikorppi Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Sorry, double post. I'm having real trouble accessing this site when I'm logged in. Makes it verry, verry difficult to participate. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Sure, he didn't NEED to kill him. He could have waited and saved his honor.... or could he? He was sworn to protect him, why is it so much better to hand him over to his enemies to be most likely executed? His own father was sacking the city at the time. At what point was Jaime in danger of later being executed for handing him over?:wideeyed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 But Jaime had already killed the pyromancer Aerys gave the order to. All he had to do (& did) was prevent Aerys from giving anyone else those orders. I'm not saying Jaime didn't have cause to kill Aerys, but let's not pretend he had no other option. I pointed to another option; knocking the king out and tying him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 <snip> Well said.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 His own father was sacking the city at the time. At what point was Jaime in danger of later being executed for handing him over? :wideeyed: Because there is not just Jaime and Aerys in the royal palace. Ned Stark: The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us." Kings Landing was not yet took over, nor was the Red Keep, with thousands of loyalists Aerys could still implement his orders and Jaime could still be killed. Taking him prisoner is pretty much impossible without being able to see into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 I pointed to another option; knocking the king out and tying him up. Yes, he had options to overpower & subdue the King. I might think otherwise if his father wasn't sacking the city at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 There's no difference between killing Aerys then and there rather than leaving the job for someone else to do. He was a dead man at this point and Jaime and Aerys both knew it ("let him be king over ashes etc"). The main difference is how it impacts Jaimes reputation / how it looks to others. So yes it would have been better in Jaimes self interest to let Aerys live. Jaime was risking his reputation in order to be sure that Aerys died before he could have Kings landing burnt to the ground. ...also because plot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.