R+L=J v.155

[purple-eyes]

He doesn't have to have any parallels with Rhaegar for Rhaegar to marry polygamously.

You know who does have a lot of parallels with Rhaegar? Bael the Bard.

He does have. I had written a post for it.
I could not give you link now since I am outside for lunch with only my phone.
But you can search " rhaegar the unworthy" in post if you are interested.
Especially the parallel between Daena and Lyanna.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

Rhaegar must have known that the Lyanna affair would lead to a war, especially if he and Lyanna weren't present to fight for their love and marriage. He has the example of Duncan and Lyonel Baratheon present in his head. And Aegon V was able to end Lyonel's rebellion by a trial-by-combat. Rhaegar could have offered something similar to Robert. Most importantly, he and Lyanna could have prevented the execution of Rickard and Brandon, and the whole Robert/Ned execution order.

 

The plan could easily have been changed at any point since Rhaegar was always free to return to KL and leave Lyanna somewhere else - like he later did. The idea that he thought doing nothing besides sleeping with Lyanna was better than trying to do something in KL makes no sense at all. Not if he was thinking at this time. Had Rhaegar been Hand instead of Connington he could have ended the war then and there.

 

As to coming back at all - we have to consider Lyanna in all that, too. But we seldom do that. If she ever wanted to be the future queen, there is a pretty good chance that she was done with that once she learned about her father and brother, and the Aerys crying for Ned's and Robert's heads (that she did not want to marry Robert doesn't mean she wanted him dead). She may have decided to stay at the tower, not willing to go to the court of the man who had burned her father alive, and rather determined that he never lays eyes on or touches her son.

 

Lyanna as part of any victorious Targaryen regime after the Trident is pretty much unthinkable. Rhaegar would have risen to throne over the corpses of her father and brother(s) - if Ned had died at the Trident - and Rhaegar dying but the Targaryens winning would have left her at the mercy of Aerys. Who most likely would put her down, too. The child, too, if he had no use for it. 

 

Daemon stuff:

 

Apparently Daemon couldn't take a second wife. Else he would have done it. He later married both Laena and Rhaenyra without royal permission which proves he didn't gave a rat's ass about his brother's resolve to be cross with him. He knew he would come around eventually. Polygamy apparently wasn't even an option he thought about. And he had a dragon and his own crown and kingdom at one point. If you can't take a second wife in such a position when exactly can you do it then?

[MtnLion]

LV, I sincerely doubt that Rhaegar and Lyanna got the news swiftly enough to react to it in any way timely.  Guestimating it looks like about a fortnight or two minimum delay between event and news arriving for them.  Then the news would always be suspect, I have been in labs to demonstrate how word of mouth relay results in some rather odd mutations. 

[Ygrain]

 

1) Than he's delusional. Couldn't even tip off the Mad King that "Hey dad, I'm eloping with Lyanna Stark. If HER FAMILY shows up pissed due to the fact that I forgot to let them know about it, I implore you to act with reason." No amount of missing information will make this any less reckless, vain, arrogant, stupid, or short-sighted.
 

I ask you this-- would Brandon have stormed into the Red Keep demanding that Rhaegar come out and die if he hadn't run off with Lyanna? He acted irrationally, but Rhaegar (and Lyanna, if she went willingly) are not exempt from some blame here. It was the instigating act.

 

2) Per TWOIAF, Robert's heart hardened to the Prince the day he dropped the flowers in Lyanna's lap at Harrenhal. He's the one getting cheated out of a marriage here. He's gonna be pissed. Hoster Tully just wanted to cement the alliances with blood before rising up against his king. Nothing wrong with that.

1) I have no idea what Brandon was thinking, were it the Crown Prince with my sister, I wouldn't go yelling for him to a place where he was not present and where I might encounter his crazy dad.

 

2) And? So Robert is going to be pissed. It's not like there is no option to make some amends, find him another bride, give him lands, whatever. "Absolute ire" is a gross exaggeration.

[purple-eyes]

UL,
 
Rhaegar must have known that the Lyanna affair would lead to a war, especially if he and Lyanna weren't present to fight for their love and marriage. He has the example of Duncan and Lyonel Baratheon present in his head. And Aegon V was able to end Lyonel's rebellion by a trial-by-combat. Rhaegar could have offered something similar to Robert. Most importantly, he and Lyanna could have prevented the execution of Rickard and Brandon, and the whole Robert/Ned execution order.
 
The plan could easily have been changed at any point since Rhaegar was always free to return to KL and leave Lyanna somewhere else - like he later did. The idea that he thought doing nothing besides sleeping with Lyanna was better than trying to do something in KL makes no sense at all. Not if he was thinking at this time. Had Rhaegar been Hand instead of Connington he could have ended the war then and there.
 
As to coming back at all - we have to consider Lyanna in all that, too. But we seldom do that. If she ever wanted to be the future queen, there is a pretty good chance that she was done with that once she learned about her father and brother, and the Aerys crying for Ned's and Robert's heads (that she did not want to marry Robert doesn't mean she wanted him dead). She may have decided to stay at the tower, not willing to go to the court of the man who had burned her father alive, and rather determined that he never lays eyes on or touches her son.
 
Lyanna as part of any victorious Targaryen regime after the Trident is pretty much unthinkable. Rhaegar would have risen to throne over the corpses of her father and brother(s) - if Ned had died at the Trident - and Rhaegar dying but the Targaryens winning would have left her at the mercy of Aerys. Who most likely would put her down, too. The child, too, if he had no use for it. 
 
Daemon stuff:
 
Apparently Daemon couldn't take a second wife. Else he would have done it. He later married both Laena and Rhaenyra without royal permission which proves he didn't gave a rat's ass about his brother's resolve to be cross with him. He knew he would come around eventually. Polygamy apparently wasn't even an option he thought about. And he had a dragon and his own crown and kingdom at one point. If you can't take a second wife in such a position when exactly can you do it then?

Yeah. Daemon sounds like a guy who would secretly get married to a second wife if it is indeed an option.
In fact, if his secret second marriage would be recognized and unbreakable anyway like some people insisted here, he would marry firstly and threaten his brother to annul his first marriage.

[Lord Varys]

ML,

 

well, the Kingsguard as a secret surveillance station, possibly working with satellite assistance, and Rhaegar and Lyanna don't even learn the news about Lyanna's father and brother, and the outbreak of a war and what caused it?

 

That makes no sense at all, in every possible scenario short of 'they were imprisoned in a secret dungeon'.

 

We don't know where they were when Brandon and Rickard were killed, and we have no reason to believe that this news did not spread. Rickard and Brandon were executed in the Red Keep, there were many witnesses to this atrocity. Chances are they were not exactly in another dimension when this happened, so they would have known.

 

And we really have to ask ourselves whether Lyanna's love for Rhaegar - if it existed (we don't have textual evidence for that yet) - did survive the news about Brandon/Rickard and the war? If my father-in-law burned my father alive I'd try to get a divorce regardless how melancholy the purple eyes of my husband were, or how bright his shone in the sunlight.

 

There might be a completely different reason why Lyanna did not come with Rhaegar to KL - because she was done with him, or at least pretended she was. I mean, Rhaegar was riding into war against her second brother, and they could kill each other - that is not exactly an ideal prospect, and I cannot see a woman like Lyanna being perfectly happy with that or not trying to do anything about it. You know, something like trying to make a peace with Ned and Robert during the Rebellion so that they could try to take on Aerys together. Perhaps Rhaegar ended up back in the Targaryen camp, duty winning over love in the end. It couldn't have been in Lyanna's interest to see him fighting against her own family and countrymen.

[SFDanny]

Ending did not justify how you did it.

 

Never suggested it did, but then I don't claim Rhaegar really kidnapped Lyanna, nor do I claim he abandoned his wife and children, and I don't blame him for not seeing before hand Brandon's stupidity, or Aerys's vile executions or his call for Ned and Robert's heads. I have this peculiar notion that people, even fictional people, are responsible for their own actions and not the actions of others. We have a very, very different view of Rhaegar.

[purple-eyes]

ML,
 
well, the Kingsguard as a secret surveillance station, possibly working with satellite assistance, and Rhaegar and Lyanna don't even learn the news about Lyanna's father and brother, and the outbreak of a war and what caused it?
 
That makes no sense at all, in every possible scenario short of 'they were imprisoned in a secret dungeon'.
 
We don't know where they were when Brandon and Rickard were killed, and we have no reason to believe that this news did not spread. Rickard and Brandon were executed in the Red Keep, there were many witnesses to this atrocity. Chances are they were not exactly in another dimension when this happened, so they would have known.
 
And we really have to ask ourselves whether Lyanna's love for Rhaegar - if it existed (we don't have textual evidence for that yet) - did survive the news about Brandon/Rickard and the war? If my father-in-law burned my father alive I'd try to get a divorce regardless how melancholy the purple eyes of my husband were, or how bright his shone in the sunlight.
 
There might be a completely different reason why Lyanna did not come with Rhaegar to KL - because she was done with him, or at least pretended she was. I mean, Rhaegar was riding into war against her second brother, and they could kill each other - that is not exactly an ideal prospect, and I cannot see a woman like Lyanna being perfectly happy with that or not trying to do anything about it. You know, something like trying to make a peace with Ned and Robert during the Rebellion so that they could try to take on Aerys together. Perhaps Rhaegar ended up back in the Targaryen camp, duty winning over love in the end. It couldn't have been in Lyanna's interest to see him fighting against her own family and countrymen.

This is purely my imagination. But I feel lyanna did not blame rhaegar for the death of her father and brother, since rhaegar knew nothing about it.
She may only blame herself.
But it is indeed wired that she did not even contact Stark during one year, no matter if she knew the deaths of her family or not.
A normal daughter would try to send something to the family if she is gone for one whole year. Maybe she did not want to do this in the beginning, but after several months, she should want to contact somebody in her home to let them know she did not die.
Did rhaegar stop this? Or toj was so isolated that nothing can be sent out and in?

[MtnLion]

LV, surely you don't think that Rhaegar returned to King's Landing before Lyanna was pregnant.  Just how far along she was, is speculative, based upon how long it took Hightower to locate Rhaegar.  It could very well be that both Lyanna and Rhaegar knew that Lyanna should not make the journey.  In any event, it is common sense that is supported by the dialog with Ned, that news of events were so far removed from the events that nothing could be done to prevent them. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

1) He definitely kept it a secret, because no one else in Westeros (besides Ned and Howland Reed, hypothetically) know about it. You'da thunk Jaime would know about it, he was always around Aerys. If Rhaegar told the king, Jaime would probably know. If Jaime not mentioning Viserys as heir means it didn't happen, then it's not a stretch to assume his not thinking about Rhaegars marriage to Lyanna is evidence that it did not happen.

 

2) He was an arrogant fool if he thought the rest of the realm wouldn't have anything to say about it. Going on a honeymoon with Lyanna does not absolve him of his role in the bloodshed.

 

3) Sure it has some advantages for him. in that it cements his polygamous marriage. It is not an honor House Stark to lose out on an alliance with House Baratheon, and it obviously is not an advantage for the latter. Reducing Lyanna to the "Whore of House Stark" is hardly an advantage to House Stark.

 

4) If this was his plan all along, "perhaps" is not the right term. Absolutely would be more appropriate.
 

1. I agree it was a secret. The alternative is a theory from LV that makes little sense to me. I agree that no one that was not at the wedding or at ToJ knew about the wedding.

 

2. He might have been an arrogant fool -- but he had no reason to believe his actions would have led to bloodshed. And they would not have if Brandon had not been a fool and even that was not enough. If Aerys had not demanded Ned's and Robert's heads, the bloodshed would have been limited to Brandon and Rickard (horrible, but not predictable).

 

3.  Rhaegar is more popular than Maegor and the Faith less powerful, so I don't think Lyanna thought she would be the Whore of House Stark. Now if she agree to be his baby-momma and raise his bastard -- then she is almost certainly going to be the Whore of House Stark. So the marriage is still better for Lyanna and House Stark than a child without a marriage.

 

4.  Well, that is a judgment call. Based on how things turned out -- he still managed to father the prince that was promised who is likely to be one of the characters central to saving the world. That was Rhaegar's main goal, I believe. And if Brandon had not acted so recklessly or Aerys so insanely, Rhaegar's plan might have worked.

 

 

If rhaegar has reasoning and wisdom like you suggested, the best and safest way is to get a child with lyanna then legimitize him or her when he took the throne.
Not he secretly got married but his secret marriage was annulled easily and himself was disinherited and exiled then lyanna and jon still ended up as mistress and bastard.
How dumb is he if he think his second marriage would be not annulled when he already had a wife and two children and a mad king father and numerous enemies?
What source does rhaegar have to prevent this marriage from being annulled?
By crying in front of court: "she is my true love and baby is cute!" ?

No, he cannot have a bastard and then count on legitimizing the child later. Things happen and there is a prophecy to fulfill. In Rhaegar's mind, the child needs to be a "dragon" in every sense of the word and, if Rhaegar suspected he might be the prince that was promised, then he needs to be a prince at birth. This is how I believe Rhaegar would have thought -- and if so, marriage to Lyanna was required. Also, I really don't think Lyanna would have agree to have Rhaegar's bastard -- even if it is to be legitimized later. I think Lyanna would have insisted on a marriage if she was going to have his child.

 

 

Yeah. Daemon sounds like a guy who would secretly get married to a second wife if it is indeed an option.
In fact, if his secret second marriage would be recognized and unbreakable anyway like some people insisted here, he would marry firstly and threaten his brother to annul his first marriage.

Remember that there are two different Daemon characters at issues. The Daemon who married Rhaenyra eventually and Daemon Blackfyre, who wanted to marry his half-sister Daenerys, but could not get King Daeron (his half-brother and her brother) to approve the marriage. Both wanted polygamous marriages. Both were denied by the King. But in both cases, the intended bride was also a Targ, so of course the King's permission would have been sought even if polygamy was not at issue at all.

 

As to why Lyanna did not contact her family I think there is an in-story and out-of-story explanation. the out-of-story explanation is that if Lyanna gets word to her family, then the entire story does not work. So GRRM cannot have that happen. The likely in-story explanation might be that it would be too dangerous. They would track the information back and possibly find out the location of ToJ. And that would be way too big a risk until they were ready to be revealed.

[Lord Varys]

They couldn't possibly have been at the tower when Brandon and Rickard were killed. Not to mention that they would have heard the news there, if they were so well-connected to learn about the Sack later on. The tower is in the Prince's Pass, the major pass to Dorne, people pass through it all the time, and they bring news.

 

Rhaegar eventually left to fight against Lyanna's family and to save his father and his dynasty. Lyanna may have loved him, but that doesn't mean she could bring herself to live with him, or allow her child(ren) to be close to the monster Aerys had become. There are lots of reason why relationships don't work. Your father-in-law murdering your father and brother and waging a war against your family and friends would be a very good reason. Especially if your husband ended up 'choosing his father's side' - which Rhaegar did, when he fought against Robert and Ned.

[purple-eyes]

 
Never suggested it did, but then I don't claim Rhaegar really kidnapped Lyanna, nor do I claim he abandoned his wife and children, and I don't blame him for not seeing before hand Brandon's stupidity, or Aerys's vile executions or his call for Ned and Robert's heads. I have this peculiar notion that people, even fictional people, are responsible for their own actions and not the actions of others. We have a very, very different view of Rhaegar.

Everything started from his eloping and remaining hidden and returning so late.
He could not expect everything, but he did have his share of responsibility for the war.

Of course, I admit that this is the best way to ganrantee a baby born from lyanna.
Rhaegar chose a best way to get this baby.
He did not care that much about other people compared to this baby.
He thought these deaths were just unavoidble sacrifice for the greater good.
Kind of Like craster sacrificed his sons.

[Ygrain]

 

Never suggested it did, but then I don't claim Rhaegar really kidnapped Lyanna, nor do I claim he abandoned his wife and children, and I don't blame him for not seeing before hand Brandon's stupidity, or Aerys's vile executions or his call for Ned and Robert's heads. I have this peculiar notion that people, even fictional people, are responsible for their own actions and not the actions of others. We have a very, very different view of Rhaegar.

:cheers

 

LV, surely you don't think that Rhaegar returned to King's Landing before Lyanna was pregnant.   

He chose Arthur as his vessel to do the impregnation for him. Don't ask how he got his seed into Arthur.

 

 

It could very well be that both Lyanna and Rhaegar knew that Lyanna should not make the journey. 

Especially because KL would have been a very unhealthy place for her.

[Lord Varys]

I know when a woman is pregnant days after the fact, but back in Westeros they don't have our knowledge. They would have to wait and see if Lyanna bled again or not - and even then, you know, it could just come a little bit later. That stupid moon blood isn't all that reliable if you are under a lot of stress and eat too little.

 

I'm not saying Rhaegar didn't know. But he couldn't have known, right? Theoretically. Lyanna may not even have known when Rhaegar left.

[purple-eyes]

1. I agree it was a secret. The alternative is a theory from LV that makes little sense to me. I agree that no one that was not at the wedding or at ToJ knew about the wedding.
 
2. He might have been an arrogant fool -- but he had no reason to believe his actions would have led to bloodshed. And they would not have if Brandon had not been a fool and even that was not enough. If Aerys had not demanded Ned's and Robert's heads, the bloodshed would have been limited to Brandon and Rickard (horrible, but not predictable).
 
3.  Rhaegar is more popular than Maegor and the Faith less powerful, so I don't think Lyanna thought she would be the Whore of House Stark. Now if she agree to be his baby-momma and raise his bastard -- then she is almost certainly going to be the Whore of House Stark. So the marriage is still better for Lyanna and House Stark than a child without a marriage.
 
4.  Well, that is a judgment call. Based on how things turned out -- he still managed to father the prince that was promised who is likely to be one of the characters central to saving the world. That was Rhaegar's main goal, I believe. And if Brandon had not acted so recklessly or Aerys so insanely, Rhaegar's plan might have worked.
 
 
No, he cannot have a bastard and then count on legitimizing the child later. Things happen and there is a prophecy to fulfill. In Rhaegar's mind, the child needs to be a "dragon" in every sense of the word and, if Rhaegar suspected he might be the prince that was promised, then he needs to be a prince at birth. This is how I believe Rhaegar would have thought -- and if so, marriage to Lyanna was required. Also, I really don't think Lyanna would have agree to have Rhaegar's bastard -- even if it is to be legitimized later. I think Lyanna would have insisted on a marriage if she was going to have his child.
 
 

Remember that there are two different Daemon characters at issues. The Daemon who married Rhaenyra eventually and Daemon Blackfyre, who wanted to marry his half-sister Daenerys, but could not get King Daeron (his half-brother and her brother) to approve the marriage. Both wanted polygamous marriages. Both were denied by the King. But in both cases, the intended bride was also a Targ, so of course the King's permission would have been sought even if polygamy was not at issue at all.
 
As to why Lyanna did not contact her family I think there is an in-story and out-of-story explanation. the out-of-story explanation is that if Lyanna gets word to her family, then the entire story does not work. So GRRM cannot have that happen. The likely in-story explanation might be that it would be too dangerous. They would track the information back and possibly find out the location of ToJ. And that would be way too big a risk until they were ready to be revealed.

Certainly, I can see lyanna said: You have to make me a real princess to sleep with me! I want to be future queen of 7k, no less. You have a wife and two children? Well, that is your business, not mine.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Certainly, I can see lyanna said: You have to make me a real princess to sleep with me! I want to be future queen of 7k, no less. You have a wife and two children? Well, that is your business, not mine.

Sarcasm aside, no that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that Lyanna was faced with the choice of being with a man she did not want to marry (Robert) or a man she apparently grew to love (Rhaegar). If she was going to be with Rhaegar, she presumably could do it as his mistress or his second wife. Being his only wife was not an option. I believe that under the circumstances, Rhaegar convinced Lyanna that being a second wife was fine -- that Elia could not have more children and he would not have sex with her any more. He still cared for her and Aegon was still in line to be King, but Lyanna would be his wife for love -- like Aegon I and Rhaenys -- and of all of the options available to them -- such a marriage was the least bad option. Setting Elia aside was not a realistic option under the circumstances -- and likely not something that would be allowed in any event. Lyanna clearly did not want to marry Robert. So if her only option was to be the second bride to Rhaegar -- it was better than being his mistress and better than her other options.

[purple-eyes]

Sarcasm aside, no that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that Lyanna was faced with the choice of being with a man she did not want to marry (Robert) or a man she apparently grew to love (Rhaegar). If she was going to be with Rhaegar, she presumably could do it as his mistress or his second wife. Being his only wife was not an option. I believe that under the circumstances, Rhaegar convinced Lyanna that being a second wife was fine -- that Elia could not have more children and he would not have sex with her any more. He still cared for her and Aegon was still in line to be King, but Lyanna would be his wife for love -- like Aegon I and Rhaenys -- and of all of the options available to them -- such a marriage was the least bad option. Setting Elia aside was not a realistic option under the circumstances -- and likely not something that would be allowed in any event. Lyanna clearly did not want to marry Robert. So if her only option was to be the second bride to Rhaegar -- it was better than being his mistress and better than her other options.

Sure.
Like Arys harroway, a secret second wife of Maegor, "whore of harroway".
Or anne boylen, a secret second wife of Henry viii, " great whore".

[MtnLion]

They couldn't possibly have been at the tower when Brandon and Rickard were killed. Not to mention that they would have heard the news there, if they were so well-connected to learn about the Sack later on. The tower is in the Prince's Pass, the major pass to Dorne, people pass through it all the time, and they bring news.

How do you figure?  Brandon had to travel to King's Landing.  Then Rickard had to travel to King's Landing.  Then Rickard had to demand trial by combat, and arrangements had to be made.  They certainly would have heard the news about Rickard and Brandon, weeks after the mad king had precipitated the rebellion by demanding Robert's and Ned's heads.  It takes time for news to travel the road, and then more time to be sure that what you heard was true.  

[MtnLion]

:cheers

 

He chose Arthur as his vessel to do the impregnation for him. Don't ask how he got his seed into Arthur.

 

 

 

Especially because KL would have been a very unhealthy place for her.

There is that, too.  ;)  Rhaegar had to return alone, which is why his personal guard end up back at the tower to face Ned. 

[purple-eyes]

Not sure if this is a good thing to mention, but based on the Hbo show, apparently we have very little probability to see rhaegar and lyanna were married.
If this marriage were as important and confirmed like some people insisted here, should it be included in the show as well?