R+L=J v.155

[Mithras]

Lord Varys wants Dany to legitimize Jon.

[UnViserion]

 

I still don't think the entire family is above the law. Again the prosecutions of three separate queens seem to confirm this. If Jaime had said "That would show the realm the Lannisters are fit to sit the iron throne, like Targaryens" you wouldn't take that to mean he was saying every member of house Targaryen sat the iron throne. You know what I mean? 

 

And yes in practice members of the Targaryen family didn't usually have to worry about answering to lesser men. Just as Ned's kids probably didn't have to worry about legal challenges from the people of the north. It doesn't mean they had sovereign immunity. 

 

Exactly.

 

Look at what's happening in the North right now. Ramsay is able to get away with pretty much whatever he wants, but his family name doesn't shield him from the repercussions. That can is just getting kicked down the road, and one day he'll have to answer for it. "I'm a Bolton, I can do whatever I want" will not be a suitable defense.
 

[Bael's Bastard]

Exactly. Under some scenarios, king or high septon can unmake it, a fake septon, without permission of father and house, by the sword point, etc. under these cases, the oath they had was an invalid oath, a fake one.
Rhaegar may swear an oath with lyanna, but it is a fake one. You swear to be an us citizen with cheating materials, your oath is fake.
rhaegar had very low chance to make his second marriage work. Best he can get was to be disinherited and exiled with his mistress to Essos.

You are complety making stuff up. There is no basis for this fake oath or invalid oath you are going on about. This isn't Christian Europe or America, if you want to discuss how it works there, this isn't that discussion. Incest, unlike polygamy, is explicitly said to be among the worst sins in the eyes of old gods and new. Yet even when they kicked the Septon who performed the marriage between Aenys' children out of the Faith entirely, there is no indication of the marriage or their children being illegitimate or not binding. You have no case for this idea of additional marriages being invalid and their products being bastards. Just projecting real world Christianity onto Westeros and ASOIAF.

[Bael's Bastard]

re: Daemon, he may not have taken a second wife without permission, but he most certainly married his niece Rhaenyra without permission, and it caused great outrage, but nobody could do a damn thing about it.

"King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemons wife nor Rhaenyras husband had been dead even half a year; to wed again so soon was an insult to their memory, His Grace declared angrily. The marriage had been performed on Dragonstone, suddenly and secretly. Septon Eustace claims that Rhaenyra knew that her father would never approve of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage. "

[Ygrain]

 

So the current state of the Targaryen dynasty is not a factor at all? The rest of the realm is just gonna say "there go 'dem Targs again!" ?

 

I don't buy it. It's either an insanely short-sighted, poorly calculated overstep on Rhaegar's part or there's something we're missing here.

 

We don't know precisely what Robert and Ned were doing immediately following Lyanna's disappearance, because it's overshadowed by Brandon's actions. I doubt very much so that, had Brandon not rushed into KL, he, Rickard, Ned, and Robert would suddenly be ok with everything because "Rhaegar married her." What a swell guy. No way!

Please. Polygamy being possible =/= everyone and their mother would be totes cool with it. I had even stated previously that problems would have arisen. But problems would have arisen =/= polygamy would have been impossible.

[Lord Varys]

SFDanny,

 

check the the illustration in TWoIaF of Aegon V and his sons, and look for Jaehaerys' hands. It is difficult to spot in the printed version, but not so much if you have access to huge HI-RES files. This isn't a coincidence, either, since George's description to Amok for the older Jaehaerys portrait stipulated he should have his left arm concealed. Before TWoIaF I thought he may have suffered some burns at Summerhall, but this story is actually more interesting. It could be a very subtle hint that Jaehaerys' branch of the Targaryen line was both very pure (Valyrian features) as well as very compromised (Jaehaerys' deformities and Aerys' madness). And it could be a hint that Aerys and Rhaella's many children may have suffered from deformities as well, explaining why so many of them died shortly after their births, were born stillborn, or came too early. Yandel never states they all looked normal. The children aren't described. And it could explain Tyrion's deformities as well - assuming he is Aerys' son.

[RumHam]

re: Daemon, he may not have taken a second wife without permission, but he most certainly married his niece Rhaenyra without permission, and it caused great outrage, but nobody could do a damn thing about it.

"King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemons wife nor Rhaenyras husband had been dead even half a year; to wed again so soon was an insult to their memory, His Grace declared angrily. The marriage had been performed on Dragonstone, suddenly and secretly. Septon Eustace claims that Rhaenyra knew that her father would never approve of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage. "

 

Right, but he had to wait until both he and Rhaenyra were single. Otherwise he could have just married her in secret years before. Back when he first asked Viserys to set aside his marriage to lady Royce so he could marry her.

[Ygrain]

BTW, does anyone have a theory why we keep getting all that infodump about mariages without king's permission in the ouside-the-series material? Daemon and Rhaenyra, Jaehaerys and Shaera, Duncan and Jenny, Maegor and what's-her-name?

[SFDanny]

 

Letting the Targs marry eachother is one thing, letting the crown prince steal a LP's daughter (who is betrothed to another LP) and enter into a polygamous marriage with her is another.

 

The faith had a huge issue with the incest and polygamy. The politics involved with letting the crown unilaterally shit all over a valid marriage pact when they are at a very vulnerable position dynasty-wise is what's going to lead to war.. and what will lead to said union being unrecognized by the realm IMO.

 

edit- I think it was a very tragic overstep by Rhaegar if he thought he could pull this off.

 

I think "letting" is the wrong word here. The Targs, long before Rhaegar, established that the Faith nor the High Lords had no power to decide what Targaryens could or could not do. The only authority the Targaryens bow to in their personal decisions is the power of the king. The king in almost all cases decides who a Targaryen marries, and he decides to punish, or not punish, those who do not follow his wishes. It is in their interest, are so most kings think, to continue marriage between those of Targaryen blood - what most others consider incest - probably because they believe the purity of "blood" gives them special powers - perhaps control of dragons, perhaps prophetic dreams, etc. It is clear that polygamy is not regarded in the same light by most Targaryen monarchs. It happened seldom, most notably between Aegon and his sisters, but it was never common. The Targaryen kings have a interest in maintaining tight control of who their children and relatives marry. The houses they choose to form alliances with are stronger when there is no polygamous marriage, and therefore it is in the interest of the king to maintain, in most cases, a single marriage tradition in order to not dilute the  power of the alliance, and control who will be heirs to the throne. None of this means there is a ban on Targaryen polygamy, or relates to the reason Rhaegar may have seen the need to bring back polygamy in his own case ("the dragon has three-heads.")

 

Now, you may be right that there would be a reaction from the High Septon if Rhaegar shows up and demands his second marriage, if it occurred, be recognized by one and all. Cleary Rhaegar took a high stakes gamble, but not so much with the Faith or with the Starks or the Baratheons when he runs off with Lyanna. Outside of Brandon's stupidity, there is no challenge to Targaryen power that manifests from his action. Not from the Faith, who admittedly would not know yet of a polygamous marriage, or from the Starks or the Baratheons. No, when Rhaegar runs away, the gamble he is in most danger of losing is with his father. The question then becomes is this a "very tragic overstep" as you say, or is it a very tragic but necessary step Rhaegar needs to take? I'm more inclined to the latter.

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

 

check the the illustration in TWoIaF of Aegon V and his sons, and look for Jaehaerys' hands. It is difficult to spot in the printed version, but not so much if you have access to huge HI-RES files. This isn't a coincidence, either, since George's description to Amok for the older Jaehaerys portrait stipulated he should have his left arm concealed. Before TWoIaF I thought he may have suffered some burns at Summerhall, but this story is actually more interesting. It could be a very subtle hint that Jaehaerys' branch of the Targaryen line was both very pure (Valyrian features) as well as very compromised (Jaehaerys' deformities and Aerys' madness). And it could be a hint that Aerys and Rhaella's many children may have suffered from deformities as well, explaining why so many of them died shortly after their births, were born stillborn, or came too early. Yandel never states they all looked normal. The children aren't described. And it could explain Tyrion's deformities as well - assuming he is Aerys' son.

 

Thank you, LV. As I said, I totally missed this.

[UnViserion]

Please. Polygamy being possible =/= everyone and their mother would be totes cool with it. I had even stated previously that problems would have arisen. But problems would have arisen =/= polygamy would have been impossible.

 

Honestly it's not possible if no one is going to recognize the marriage.

Sure, they can stand before a tree and say the words. It doesn't mean anybody will endorse it or recognize it as a viable marriage. He's already married and she's promised to another. Polygamy hasn't been practiced in generations, why would anyone recognize Lyanna's ability to give her hand away to Rhaegar or his ability to run off with her Wildling style and say the vows?

 

Can they do it? Yes. Is it valid? Probably not.
 

[Lord Varys]

Jaehaerys-Shaera and Daemon-Laena/Rhaenyra all got royal permission after the fact. That is still a royal permission, right? Maegor did get no permission for his second marriage. From anyone.

 

Rhaegar may have gotten his father's permission after the fact, too - but that doesn't seem likely considering how their relationship was at the time this marriage seems to have taken place. And we don't know the Faith's position on all that. The new High Septon just realized the potential all the High Septons could have tapped into. The Faith Militant was already restored long before the High Sparrow talked to Cersei - there were already Poor Fellows running in front of Cersei's eyes.

 

If the High Septon had condemned Rhaegar's marriage the same the High Septon condemned Maegor's second marriage it would have been over in that very instant. The High Septon is the avatar of the Seven on earth, not some clown in robes. He may no longer have armies to command, but he still commands the minds and hearts of the faithful, which make up pretty much the entire smallfolk and a good portion of the nobility.

 

As to precedents:

 

Precedents just are. If X happens, X constitutes a precedent. If non-X happens, it constitutes a precedent against X - but that doesn't mean X never happened, or X no longer constitutes a precedent. It is that complicated (or that simple). 

[SFDanny]

BTW, does anyone have a theory why we keep getting all that infodump about mariages without king's permission in the ouside-the-series material? Daemon and Rhaenyra, Jaehaerys and Shaera, Duncan and Jenny, Maegor and what's-her-name?

 

You know why, Ygrain. It not only gives us this theme of arranged marriages vs. marriages for love that Martin wants us to think about, but it also sets up the question of would Rhaegar have married Lyanna thinking he might get away with doing so without his father's permission. Whether it is true or not is a separate question, but clearly Martin wants us to think about if it is possible.

[Ygrain]

 

You know why, Ygrain. It not only gives us this theme of arranged marriages vs. marriages for love that Martin wants us to think about, but it also sets up the question of would Rhaegar have married Lyanna thinking he might get away with doing so without his father's permission. Whether it is true or not is a separate question, but clearly Martin wants us to think about if it is possible.

Sure I know what I think about it. I wondered if others might be seeing something I don't. 'Cause my interpretation is, don't ask for permission if you think you might not get it; go for it and deal with the shitstorm later.

 

 

Honestly it's not possible if no one is going to recognize the marriage.

Sure, they can stand before a tree and say the words. It doesn't mean anybody will endorse it or recognize it as a viable marriage. He's already married and she's promised to another. Polygamy hasn't been practiced in generations, why would anyone recognize Lyanna's ability to give her hand away to Rhaegar or his ability to run off with her Wildling style and say the vows?

 

Can they do it? Yes. Is it valid? Probably not.

What is not valid, a vow to the gods? Peculiar.

[purple-eyes]

 
You know why, Ygrain. It not only gives us this theme of arranged marriages vs. marriages for love that Martin wants us to think about, but it also sets up the question of would Rhaegar have married Lyanna thinking he might get away with doing so without his father's permission. Whether it is true or not is a separate question, but clearly Martin wants us to think about if it is possible.

You really should not put first three pairs as some support for rhaegar. They were all single before marriage. Totally different scenarios.
Only case you can use for rhaegar is Maegor the cruel, who married six wives by his power and dragon.
Another Interesting thing is, all these people declared their secret marriage or affairs to the country after it, only Rhaegar remained hidden and completely silent about his new marriage for one year until he died, not even a single word was left about this, Why?
Because this probably did not happen.

[SFDanny]

 

Honestly it's not possible if no one is going to recognize the marriage.

Sure, they can stand before a tree and say the words. It doesn't mean anybody will endorse it or recognize it as a viable marriage. He's already married and she's promised to another. Polygamy hasn't been practiced in generations, why would anyone recognize Lyanna's ability to give her hand away to Rhaegar or his ability to run off with her Wildling style and say the vows?

 

Can they do it? Yes. Is it valid? Probably not.
 

 

It is valid if the king accepts it. In Rhaegar's case, it is valid if he can convince Aerys to accept it, or if Rhaegar becomes the king and he decides himself it is valid. As I said before, it is clearly a high stakes gamble on Rhaegar's part, but it may well be one he thinks is necessary because "the dragon has three-heads." It might also be something he sees as necessary, and something that he has a powerful emotional stake in - he falls in love with Lyanna. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[MtnLion]

 

Honestly it's not possible if no one is going to recognize the marriage.

Do you have any examples of someone not recognizing a marriage? 

[UnViserion]

Sure I know what I think about it. I wondered if others might be seeing something I don't. 'Cause my interpretation is, don't ask for permission if you think you might not get it; go for it and deal with the shitstorm later.

 

What is not valid, a vow to the gods? Peculiar.

 

1) If that's what Rhaegar did, he really was a complete idiot. And irresponsible, as he didn't deal with the shitstorm until the very end. At which point he was sailing into a shit-tycoon.

 

2) "A vow to the gods" is putting it lightly. It would have been a secret vow without the consent of House Stark while drawing the absolute ire of House Baratheon, and demonstrating to the other great houses that even though the Targaryen's are really at a vulnerable point dynasty wise, they're still "just better than everyone else" and can do whatever they want. Arrogance.

 

Woeful miscalculation on Rhaegars part if it is indeed what happened.

 

I'm starting to realize why so many people categorize Rhaegar as arrogant, stupid, selfish, and obsessed. If he really ran off with Lyanna thinking he could pull this whole polygamy thing off... I don't care what other factors drove him to do it. He really is all of the above, and no amount of thus-far unrevealed information from GRRM can change that.

 

Ufda
 

[UnmaskedLurker]

The issue keeps coming up as to why Rhaegar kept his marriage a secret (assuming he did as I believe, although LV keeps suggesting maybe Aerys already knew about it). I keep arguing that he was waiting for the baby to be born. I have heard some counter-arguments, and here are my follow-up thoughts.

 

When Rhaegar started this plan, he did not know a war would break out. So he did not think he would be sitting out a war -- he just thought he would be sitting out the fall-out from running off with Lyanna. Once the war started, it was too late to change the plan as there really was no better plan available to them at that point. They were already married and Lyanna possibly was already pregnant by the time they learned that war broke out.

 

Coming back with a baby has some advantages. It is more difficult to try to "undo" the marriage if there is a baby. Certainly, I would think that the objections of the Starks would be diminished, as Lyanna is better off as second wife to the next King than "unulled non-wife" with the maybe bastard child of the next King. And with a baby born -- those would really be their only choices. But I have always argued that Aerys is really the issue at hand that matters most. Rhaegar either needed to get himself installed as regent so he could make the decision himself about the marriage -- or convince Aerys to accept the marriage. I think Rhaegar believed he could accomplish one or the other. I think at first, he thought he could get Aerys to accept the wife and child. When he went to the Trident, I think he thought that coming back a war hero, he could do anything he wanted, including becoming regent and recognizing the marriage. But I think he thought the worst that would happen is that he would have to go to exile in Essos with his 2 wives and 3 children.

 

Did Rhaegar act recklessly in thinking this would all work out -- perhaps. Did Rheagar have any better options -- I don't think so. I believe that Rhaegar thought he had no choice in the matter at all -- he had a prophecy to fulfill, and having a child with Lyanna -- a legitimate child -- was his duty to the world. 

[SFDanny]

Sure I know what I think about it. I wondered if others might be seeing something I don't. 'Cause my interpretation is, don't ask for permission if you think you might not get it; go for it and deal with the shitstorm later.

 

I agree. From a purely political standpoint, Rhaegar is gambling he is more important as a support to his father than the potential of his father disinheriting him in favor of Viserys. Given Aerys dwindling support, it is not an outrageous thought that Aerys would decide in Rhaegar's favor. In fact, that is what happens when Aerys's decides he needs Rhaegar if he has any real chance of winning against the rebels. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, Rhaegar has even told Aerys of a second marriage - only that he decides Rhaegar's fascination with this Stark girl does not outweigh his usefulness.