R+L=J v.155

[MtnLion]

Not sure if this is a good thing to mention, but based on the Hbo show, apparently we have very little probability to see rhaegar and lyanna were married.
If this marriage were as important and confirmed like some people insisted here, should it be included in the show as well?

The show is not a topic of discussion here. 

 

That said, they did have a casting call for a hero type that carried his epic sword on his back.  Ring a bell? 

[purple-eyes]

The show is not a topic of discussion here. 
 
That said, they did have a casting call for a hero type that carried his epic sword on his back.  Ring a bell? 

That is Arthur at TOJ. Although I am happy to see arthur, this does not mean r and l married. This only meant he guarded lyanna there, which he did for one year already.
Hbo Show would not tell us rhaegar married two wives.
They did not even mention aegon had two wives. They only said visenya and rhaenys were sisters of aegon.
Obviously they were avoiding the possible polygamy issue.

[IceFire125]

Not sure if this is a good thing to mention, but based on the Hbo show, apparently we have very little probability to see rhaegar and lyanna were married.
If this marriage were as important and confirmed like some people insisted here, should it be included in the show as well?

 

[spoiler]

Nope, the summarized show version is that, before the resurrection scene, R+L=J confirmed via flashback/weirdwood vision with Bran.

 

Kingsguard(s) fight Ned and his party.  Why is Kingsguard(s) at the tower? simple they were guarding the true heir to the Iron Throne (since Varys supports Dany not [f]Aegon's storyline, who was cut), who is Jon --- viewers mind blown.

 

Then they could go straight to...

 

Jon saving Westeros.

 

Jon proclaimed as king by the people and lords or he could reject the throne and set up a freehold state in Westeros.

 

The details will be in TWOW and ADOS.

[/spoiler]

[purple-eyes]

 
[spoiler]
Nope, the summarized show version is that, before the resurrection scene, R+L=J confirmed via flashback/weirdwood vision with Bran.
 
Kingsguard(s) fight Ned and his party.  Why is Kingsguard(s) at the tower? simple they were guarding the true heir to the Iron Throne (since Varys supports Dany not [f]Aegon's storyline, who was cut), who is Jon --- viewers mind blown.
 
Then they could go straight to...
 
Jon saving Westeros.
 
Jon proclaimed as king by the people and lords or he could reject the throne and set up a freehold state in Westeros.
 
The details will be in TWOW and ADOS.
[/spoiler]

Good fanfic. :)
But they did not even have actors for rhaegar and old lyanna. They did ask for actors for young Ned and young benjen and maybe young lyanna. The vision of bran is likely for winterfell, not toj.

[MtnLion]

Good fanfic. :)
But they did not even have actors for rhaegar and old lyanna. They did ask for actors for young Ned and young benjen and maybe young lyanna. The vision of bran is likely for winterfell, not toj.

May I politely suggest that you take this discussion and comments to the show threads.  I am sure that you will find some very informed show people.  Based upon your not knowing about casting calls, it might be an eye-opening experience. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Sure.
Like Arys harroway, a secret second wife of Maegor, "whore of harroway".
Or anne boylen, a secret second wife of Henry viii, " great whore".

So being Rhaegar's mistress and baby-momma is better? I am sure that Rhaegar convinced Lyanna that either he would get everyone to accept the marriage or they would go to Essos with Elia and the 3 children. If Lyanna is in love with Rhaegar, those options are better than living as his mistress with his bastard child.

[IceFire125]

Good fanfic. :)
But they did not even have actors for rhaegar and old lyanna. They did ask for actors for young Ned and young benjen and maybe young lyanna. The vision of bran is likely for winterfell, not toj.

 

LOL! please do what MtnLion advised in post #385.  For all of our sake.

[UnViserion]

The last 17 pages have been delightful to read.

-Rhaegar gets a pass no matter what because he was saving the world :lmao:
-Jon is obviously king
-Brandon should have known better
-despite not being practiced for 300 years, even in times when the Targaryens werent a dismal excuse of a dynasty, polygamy is an acceptable practice
-kidnapping and marrying a LP's daughter, even if she was a willing participant, is not a crime for the Targs
-the political climate of Westeros doesn't matter

what a joke. No wonder everybody hates Rhaegar. If the theory yall propose is true, no amount of currently unknown information will change the fat that he was a reckless, irresponsible, arrogant, self absorbed, prophecy obsessed idiot who plunged the realm into war.

[IceFire125]

what a joke. No wonder everybody hates Rhaegar. If the theory yall propose is true, no amount of currently unknown information will change the fat that he was a reckless, irresponsible, arrogant, self absorbed, prophecy obsessed idiot who plunged the realm into war.

Saving the world is serious business. You didn't get the memo? 
 

It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him.

 

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

[MtnLion]

If Rhaegar (by extension Jon) fails, GRRM has suggested that the ending of the series might be Tyrion alone with a world full of graves. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

The last 17 pages have been delightful to read.

-Rhaegar gets a pass no matter what because he was saving the world :lmao:
-Jon is obviously king
-Brandon should have known better
-despite not being practiced for 300 years, even in times when the Targaryens werent a dismal excuse of a dynasty, polygamy is an acceptable practice
-kidnapping and marrying a LP's daughter, even if she was a willing participant, is not a crime for the Targs
-the political climate of Westeros doesn't matter

what a joke. No wonder everybody hates Rhaegar. If the theory yall propose is true, no amount of currently unknown information will change the fat that he was a reckless, irresponsible, arrogant, self absorbed, prophecy obsessed idiot who plunged the realm into war.

I will try to get through point by point:

 

No, Rhaegar does not get a pass. I just think it is important to put his actions in context. Just try to put yourself in his position. He honestly believes he needs to have a third "dragon" to save the world. His wife can have no children. He falls in love with Lyanna. He has no good choices available to him. 

 

I don't know that Jon is King. I think that the KG thought he was King. Whether anyone else will ever think he is or should be King is a totally different matter. I have not seen anyone here on this version of this thread argue that Jon will be King in the end. I think he might be -- but I really am not sure.

 

Yes, Brandon should have known better. To go to the capital and demand that the King's heir and son "come out and die" is about as idiotic an action as is possible. The action clearly was treason -- and it was done in the seat of power of the Targs. The action is completely implausible -- in fact -- and does not really make sense -- but GRRM needed it to happen for the story to work, so he tries to make it seem like it could have happened. I am not convinced -- it just needed to happen for the plot to work, so I let it go. But yes, of course, anyone would have known better.

 

Again -- a straw man. No one said that polygamy was perfectly acceptable. What was said was that it was never formally made illegal. I have said repeatedly that I believe that the King could have imposed a sanction on Rhaegar for the marriage -- as happened to Maegor. Rhaegar entered into a polygamous marriage because it was the least bad option -- not because he thought it was perfectly acceptable or easy to accomplish without consequence.

 

Whether getting married to Lyanna is a crime is also part of why I think they stayed away until she had a child. Her family was less likely to press the issue if they are married and have a child. And the crown prince really is not going to pay for any crimes unless the King want to impose a penalty -- and if the polygamy issue is addressed with the King -- the King won't really care about this added issue of marrying another man's fiance and without permission of her father. And Robert does not have the power to press his complaint. He will be ignored -- or bought off -- even if his complaint is otherwise legit.

 

Of course the political climate matters. But if Brandon and Aerys had not done what they had done, Rhaegar likely would have gotten away with his plans.

 

Everyone is free to evaluate these actions and make any judgment he or she wants. Just like some people hate Dany and others love her -- some people will think Rhaegar is mostly justified in his actions and others will view those actions differently. GRRM paints gray characters that way intentionally. I try not to judge fictional characters (although I admit I sometimes get wrapped up and form such opinions) -- I just want interesting stories.

[purple-eyes]

I really feel confused that why some people can be so sure that KG in TOJ equals to RL married.

[UnViserion]

Saving the world is serious business. You didn't get the memo? 
 

It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him.

 

No doubt the boy had made the mistake of thinking that the Nights Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him.

And if that's the route he deemed best to accomplish this task, he's an idiot.

A realm divided and quarrelsome to this very day.. But thankfully Jons there. :lol:

Take a step back and look at how simplistic an biased this theory is.
-Rhaegar had to abduct Lyanna, help catapult the realm into chaos (if you deny his enormous part in that there's nothing further to discuss), all because Jonhadtobeborn

Oh and they loved eachother.. So much so that he had to abandon his wife who bore his children. All because of one tournament at Harrenhal.. And maybe some communications with her that we don't know about but the rest of the theory is so lock tight that it's basically canon.

This is nonsense. Jon may very we'll be a legitimate Targaryen, but this love story theory proposed by so many in this thread is so damn cheesy and twisted. If this is what happened, Rhaegar is a vain fool.

Perhaps he handled some things poorly, they say. Saving the world will be his ultimate legacy, they say. :lmao:

[UnViserion]

I really feel confused that why some people can be so sure that KG in TOJ equals to RL married.

Even if it does, all it really confirms is that Rhaegar truly is just a complete scumbag.

[Lord Varys]

ML,

 

so now you are suggesting that Rhaegar/Lyanna - wherever they were - had no way of getting good information, but the knights at the tower later had? That makes no sense. Both would have had rumors. Why believe stuff about the Trident and the Sack and not stuff about Rickard and Brandon? Just because that fits your narrative best?

 

Besides, things moved a lot quicker than you insinuate there. Rickard and Brandon were both on their way to Riverrun when Lyanna disappeared, with Brandon being ahead of Rickard's party with his companions, and racing straight to KL when he got the news, presumably believing that Rhaegar and Lyanna were there (suggesting that he didn't have all that goods news about their movements). Rickard would have received a royal summons wherever he was in the Riverlands, presumably from Hoster at Riverrun of through a rider sent to his party. This also explains why the hell Rickard went into the dragon's jaw without sufficient strength - that is a smaller or greater army at his back. Robb had the time to call the banners, Rickard apparently did not. Rickard may not even have been able to return to Winterfell due to the Targaryen loyalists in the Riverlands.

 

There may have been some time between Rickard's arrival and 'the trials' but most likely not months. And one assumes that even rumors about Brandon/Rickard being captured would have caused Rhaegar/Lyanna to investigate.

 

It is very evident that something was going on behind the scenes we have as of yet no clue about that explains why and were Rhaegar and Lyanna went underground. My best guess is that they felt they had to because Aerys didn't execute the Starks because they 'threatened Rhaegar' but because he believed they were conspiring with Rhaegar. In such a state of mind Aerys may have treated Rhaegar/Lyanna the same way he treated Rickard/Brandon.

A very good scenario for this would be if Aerys actually only wanted to conduct a trial against Brandon with his father present - but then, around the time Rickard arrived, he received news that Rhaegar had actually married Lyanna someplace. In such case, whatever Rickard or Brandon would have said in their defense would have fallen on deaf royal ears. And Aerys really acts extreme in this Stark case. Madness or not, the Starks were a great house of the Realm, not the Darklyns or Hollards, and they had never once raised weapons against the king's person. Especially not Rickard. The fact that the fathers (or guardians) of Brandon and his companions were called to court is also strange. Brandon threatened the life of the Prince of Dragonstone. Just execute him, his father doesn't have to be heard on the matter, so why call him and burn him alive?

 

The only other explanations I can come up with is 'they were so in love that they forgot time and space' (makes little sense), 'they somehow never heard because they were, for some other reason, hiding at places were no knowledge could reach them' (that doesn't even work because they had to travel from place A to the tower, and would have interacted with reality in the process). Even if they were on the Isle of Faces one assumes the Green Men actually have magically means to find out what's going on in the rest of the world. You know, because they are supposed to be powerful and all, and prophetic visions and dreams aren't exactly uncommon in this world.

 

Perhaps that's wrong, perhaps there is another - and better - explanation I never thought about (or could not think about because there a entire plot elements and characters connected to that George has yet to introduce). But it is not going to turn out that Lyanna and Rhaegar 'just stayed away from court and where somewhere for sometime'. Their story is a very important background detail of the series, and it will 

[UnmaskedLurker]

I really feel confused that why some people can be so sure that KG in TOJ equals to RL married.

Basically, the analysis from ML's sig on the conversation at ToJ is the basic basis for the analysis. The short version is that the KG make it clear that they have no reason to go to DS to be with V and that Darry can go to DS with V only because he is not KG. The KG say they are there because the swore a vow -- then and now. The KG seem to know that the other royals are dead. Based on everything that we have been told about KG and Hightower in particular, these statements and actions make no sense unless the KG believe that V is not King -- thus they must think that Jon is King. Jon is King only if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. While there is a bit more to the analysis -- that is the gist. The pieces only fit together if R&L were married and the KG considered Jon to be the rightful King after the deaths of the other royals.

 

 

And if that's the route he deemed best to accomplish this task, he's an idiot.

A realm divided and quarrelsome to this very day.. But thankfully Jons there. :lol:

Take a step back and look at how simplistic an biased this theory is.
-Rhaegar had to abduct Lyanna, help catapult the realm into chaos (if you deny his enormous part in that there's nothing further to discuss), all because Jonhadtobeborn

Oh and they loved eachother.. So much so that he had to abandon his wife who bore his children. All because of one tournament at Harrenhal.. And maybe some communications with her that we don't know about but the rest of the theory is so lock tight that it's basically canon.

This is nonsense. Jon may very we'll be a legitimate Targaryen, but this love story theory proposed by so many in this thread is so damn cheesy and twisted. If this is what happened, Rhaegar is a vain fool.

Perhaps he handled some things poorly, they say. Saving the world will be his ultimate legacy, they say. :lmao:

As I have said, you are free to consider Rhaegar a jerk, asshole, idiot, moron, psycho, whatever. I really don't care. I am interested in solving the mysteries -- figuring out what is going to be revealed by GRRM eventually. I am less interested in whether a certain fictional character behaved properly. I will indulge your issues, however, in any event because they are not totally uninteresting.

 

I disagree with a few of your assertions. I don't think Rhaegar abducted Lyanna in the sense of her going unwillingly -- I think she wanted to be with him. Second, I don't think it would have been foreseeable that running off with Lyanna would set the kingdom into chaos. I don't think Brandon's reckless actions were predictable -- or Aerys's extreme reaction to those actions. I don't think anyone could have predicted that war would result from R&L running off and disappearing.

 

But I still have not heard your suggestion of what else Rhaegar could have done. Take as given that Elia is unable to have another child -- that Rhaegar believes the world will end if he does not father the three heads of the dragon and he must marry the mother of all three heads because they need to be "dragons" in every sense -- i.e., Targaryans from birth. And he falls in love with Lyanna -- and she falls in love with him and she wants to get out of an engagement to a man who she believes will be a bad husband in her view. So given those facts (if those are the facts -- and we don't know for sure, but accept for this purpose that they are the facts), what are his better options?

[MtnLion]

ML,

 

so now you are suggesting that Rhaegar/Lyanna - wherever they were - had no way of getting good information, but the knights at the tower later had? That makes no sense. Both would have had rumors. Why believe stuff about the Trident and the Sack and not stuff about Rickard and Brandon? Just because that fits your narrative best?

It is true that by the time that Ned makes the trip to Storm's End, and then to the tower that word of the sack had reached the tower.  Have we worked out how long that may be?  My calculations tell me that it must be less than 3.5 weeks.  GRRM has gone on record as being inept at figuring real world travel times, and any discoveries of time warps are meant to be kept as a secret.  But, if it comes out that it was more than three and a half weeks, then someone else is Daenerys' daddy.  To get to that point I have accepted GRRM's suggestion that it was one week to the Trident, and one week back for armies.  That is really fast army travel, btw.  If it is longer than two weeks between Chelsted's roasting and the sack, then the three and a half weeks from sack to Ned's arrival becomes a smaller piece of the 5.5 week pie.  Also, if GRRM's statement about Daenerys' and Jon's difference in age slips above 8 moons, then that pice of 5.5 weeks becomes smaller.  That is more than ample time for urgent news of the sack, Aerys' murder, et al to reach the guys at the tower.  Won't you concede that? 

 

Brandon's and Rickard's deaths were not world shaking news, like the end of the war would be, or the death of the monarch.  Also, it is early on for Rhaegar and company, where they may establish and refine lines of communication later, leading to much more reliable and timely sources of news. 

[purple-eyes]

Even if it does, all it really confirms is that Rhaegar truly is just a complete scumbag.

I am also surprised there are so many rhaegar supporters and admirers who tried to make him correct in everything.
In the board of my country, there are full of rhaegar's haters.

[Lord Varys]

ML,

 

the point is not that rumors may not have reached the tower. The point is the fact that both would have heard rumors. And if the Kingsguard believed rumors about stuff, then Rhaegar and Lyanna should at least have decided to investigate 'rumors' about the fate of Rickard and Brandon, and subsequently about this Robert's Rebellion thing. They would have heard about that, too.

[MtnLion]

ML,

 

the point is not that rumors may not have reached the tower. The point is the fact that both would have heard rumors. And if the Kingsguard believed rumors about stuff, then Rhaegar and Lyanna should at least have decided to investigate 'rumors' about the fate of Rickard and Brandon, and subsequently about this Robert's Rebellion thing. They would have heard about that, too.

Sure, and three or more weeks after the fact.  What are they going to do?  They are isolated.  They are interested in keeping hidden.  The only thing that is reasonable is to continue and hope for the best.  With Aerys as a father, that likely is a bad thing, but nothing else is better.