What is his cause?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Sorry new to this as for the above post, aegon's loyalist created the three headed dragon sigil per twoiaf

I haven't read all of TWOIAF yet.  I keep the book tucked away, safe from my children.

 

So does it definitively say that somebody on Aegon's staff came up with the whole idea, or is that just talking about the artistic rendering of such?  

[Slowpoke Martin]

Rhaegar's cause was to defeat Robert then call a council to remove the Mad King.  Then Robert had to muck it all up by killing him.

 

Bullshit, Rhaegar was a self obsessed prophecy fanatic. The only possible people who knew anything about Rhaegar were his two little unimportant butt buddies.

If he had the brains to inform the ACTUAL important people, such as the heads of the major houses, then the rebellion would've made common cause with Rhaegar.

[purple-eyes]

If there was no Robert, and Rhaegar said, "Ned, I agree that my father is crazy, his so-called executions of your father and brother were unjust murder, his demand for your head must be prevented at all costs, and he must be removed for the good of the realm, so I want to fight on your side", what reason would Ned have to say no? He has a much better chance of winning on Rhaegar's side against Aerys than of beating Rhaegar and then beating Aerys. And if they win, he's not a traitor for fighting for the rightful King Rhaegar. They do have to sit down and have a talk about Lyanna, but I think they could come to an understanding, and there are no other sticking points between them.


Of course it probably would have been smarter to do that earlier. Why he didn't is hard to guess without more information.

 

It is a bloody war and they were on opposite sides. Half war has been fought and already many people died.  

It is impossible to settle down by just some talk between Ned and Rhaegar. Ned could not place thousands of people on just some words and promises of Rhaegar. He can not be a traitor to his own ally either. he can not trust Rhaegar and Rheagar could not trust Ned either. They are enemies. It is also extremely hard to have a reliable communication between Rhaegar and Ned. 

 

Rheagar could not do anything earlier because he was busy in having sex and making child. He had to lock themselves in the TOJ and focused on it. He did not want to be disturbed. 

[Valyrian Blade]

How would the north respect Ned if he forgives Rhaegar for "stealing" his sister.

 

I can already hear lord Umber calling lord Eddard a green boy,

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Bullshit, Rhaegar was a self obsessed prophecy fanatic. The only possible people who knew anything about Rhaegar were his two little unimportant butt buddies.

If he had the brains to inform the ACTUAL important people, such as the heads of the major houses, then the rebellion would've made common cause with Rhaegar.

Text does not remotely back this up.

 

And the prophecy he was into is coming true so that really can't be counted as a negative.

[Darkstream]

 
Rheagar could not do anything earlier because he was busy in having sex and making child. He had to lock themselves in the TOJ and focused on it. He did not want to be disturbed.

This is funny, do you think that they were locked in the tower twenty four hours a day, for about a year, just having sex :smileysex: I kind of find it hard to blame Rhaegar for anything he did in that case ;)

[purple-eyes]

This is funny, do you think that they were locked in the tower twenty four hours a day, for about a year, just having sex :smileysex: I kind of find it hard to blame Rhaegar for anything he did in that case ;)

 

I feel that one of the reasons he lost to Robert was because he had too much sex and he was kind of exhausted. :)

[falcotron]

It is a bloody war and they were on opposite sides. Half war has been fought and already many people died.  
It is impossible to settle down by just some talk between Ned and Rhaegar. Ned could not place thousands of people on just some words and promises of Rhaegar. He can not be a traitor to his own ally either. he can not trust Rhaegar and Rheagar could not trust Ned either. They are enemies. It is also extremely hard to have a reliable communication between Rhaegar and Ned.

First, what ally? I already said that it couldn't happen because of Robert. But if Robert hadn't been in the picture, what ally would Ned be a traitor to by joining forces with Rhaegar against Aerys?

Beyond that, your argument is basically that no war can ever be concluded with a peace treaty, and no one can ever change sides in a war, which is so ridiculous I don't even know how to address it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This is funny, do you think that they were locked in the tower twenty four hours a day, for about a year, just having sex :smileysex: I kind of find it hard to blame Rhaegar for anything he did in that case ;)

 

Poor KG who had to hear them every day... :/

[purple-eyes]

First, what ally? I already said that it couldn't happen because of Robert. But if Robert hadn't been in the picture, what ally would Ned be a traitor to by joining forces with Rhaegar against Aerys?

Beyond that, your argument is basically that no war can ever be concluded with a peace treaty, and no one can ever change sides in a war, which is so ridiculous I don't even know how to address it.

 

Any ally. Like Jon Aryn, House Tully. If Ned talked with Rhaegar for peace privately, he would be a traitor for them.

We are fighting together against Targ, but you secretly talk with the leader of the enemy? this is a very serious treason. 

Unless rhaegar can hold a council for all of them and promised peace and safety for everybody. This is very unlikely to happen. Rhaegar is not king yet. 

He can not even make sure himself completely safe. 

If he told Ned: we are friends, you yield to me, I will try to depose my father. If I successfully depose my father, then I will forgive everybody. 

So many ifs, Ned cannot run this risk. 

 

I am not saying a peace treaty can not be made between two ends. But not in this case of rebellion.

Rebellion is something more serious, not like two countries are fighting for a disputed land and they can make a treaty. 

Rebellion was a challenge to the central power, either want to usurp or require independence.

it is quite hard to make a treaty for a rebellion for a king. 

It can only work that Rhaegar promised them they can become independent after the war. But this directly contradict with his own crown. So I doubt Rhaegar wanted to do that. 

[UnViserion]

 

Ned has to revenge for his father and brother. 

Rhaegar is not king yet. He can not promise to pardon Ned and Jon or provide any negotiation.

He may want to depose his father but there is certainly no guarantee. What is he fails to depose his dad?

Ned and Jon already rebelled. If Rhaegar fails to depose his father, Ned and Jon would be killed by Aerys for sure. 

 

That's why they call it the Game of Thrones!

 

 

Bullshit, Rhaegar was a self obsessed prophecy fanatic. The only possible people who knew anything about Rhaegar were his two little unimportant butt buddies.

If he had the brains to inform the ACTUAL important people, such as the heads of the major houses, then the rebellion would've made common cause with Rhaegar.

 

You are privy to a lot of info no one else has, apparently. 

 

How would the north respect Ned if he forgives Rhaegar for "stealing" his sister.

 

I can already hear lord Umber calling lord Eddard a green boy,

 

Agreed. That would be an awful tough sell to his newly acquired bannermen. 

 

"Hey guys-- I know you fought beside me to avenge my father and brother, I know you all lost friends and family to achieve this, and I know this guys actions are what started it all, but he seems legit. Let's go home."

 

Lol at Lord Umber. I hope he survives to the end. 

 

 

Poor KG who had to hear them every day... :/

 

Meh. It's an old hat for them. They're soo used to it :drunk: 

[falcotron]

Any ally. Like Jon Aryn, House Tully. If Ned talked with Rhaegar for peace privately, he would be a traitor for them.
We are fighting together against Targ, but you secretly talk with the leader of the enemy? this is a very serious treason.

Do you even know the sides in this war? Rhaegar isn't the leader of the enemy, Aerys is. We're talking about a hypothetical situation where Rhaegar also decides to take arms against his father (and Robert isn't involved). You're saying that it would be impossible, because it would be treason against his allies for Ned to negotiate with Rhaegar about working together against Aerys? How? Was England a traitor to its allies for accepting Flanders back into its alliance against France in the Hundred Years' War, or France a traitor to its for negotiating with America in their joint wars against England in 1812, or the UK a traitor to its for negotiating with the USSR about allying against their common enemy Germany, or the US and UK to theirs for negotiating with the Free Italians later in the same war?

Unless rhaegar can hold a council for all of them and promised peace and safety for everybody. This is very unlikely to happen. Rhaegar is not king yet. 
He can not even make sure himself completely safe. 
If he told Ned: we are friends, you yield to me, I will try to depose my father. If I successfully depose my father, then I will forgive everybody. 
So many ifs, Ned cannot run this risk.

Where do you get any of this? Ned is already trying to depose Aerys. He's already in open rebellion, and if he loses, he will be severely punished. Joining forces with Rhaegar in their mutual attempt to depose Aerys doesn't put him in "double rebellion"; he and his allies are still in the exact same situation--except now they're more likely to win (and have a better justification after the fact if they do).

It can only work that Rhaegar promised them they can become independent after the war. But this directly contradict with his own crown. So I doubt Rhaegar wanted to do that.

What? Nobody had any interest in becoming independent after the war. Why would Rhaegar promise them independence? Why would they even accept it? If they decide they're fighting for Rhaegar instead of fighting for "anyone but Aerys", and Rhaegar becomes king, they are loyal supporters of the king; what more could they want?

[purple-eyes]

Do you even know the sides in this war? Rhaegar isn't the leader of the enemy, Aerys is. We're talking about a hypothetical situation where Rhaegar also decides to take arms against his father (and Robert isn't involved). You're saying that it would be impossible, because it would be treason against his allies for Ned to negotiate with Rhaegar about working together against Aerys? How? Was England a traitor to its allies for accepting Flanders back into its alliance against France in the Hundred Years' War, or France a traitor to its for negotiating with America in their joint wars against England in 1812, or the UK a traitor to its for negotiating with the USSR about allying against their common enemy Germany, or the US and UK to theirs for negotiating with the Free Italians later in the same war?Where do you get any of this? Ned is already trying to depose Aerys. He's already in open rebellion, and if he loses, he will be severely punished. Joining forces with Rhaegar in their mutual attempt to depose Aerys doesn't put him in "double rebellion"; he and his allies are still in the exact same situation--except now they're more likely to win (and have a better justification after the fact if they do).What? Nobody had any interest in becoming independent after the war. Why would Rhaegar promise them independence? Why would they even accept it? If they decide they're fighting for Rhaegar instead of fighting for "anyone but Aerys", and Rhaegar becomes king, they are loyal supporters of the king; what more could they want?

For god's sake, you are imagining everything based on an assumption that ned deeply trusted rhaegar and he was ready to change his mind and join rhaegar's loyalists army in the middle of the war just due to some words of his enemy.
This is ridiculous. If this can work, rhaegar should directly depose his father with his 40000 army before he marched to Trident. Then he may be in a better position to persuade the rebellion to yield or reach an agreement.
I am not saying they wanted to declare independence. They wanted something even bigger: ending the Targ's reign. What I mean is that there is no way for them to assume they would be safe if Targ still remained on the throne.

[Rippounet]

If there was no Robert, and Rhaegar said, "Ned, I agree that my father is crazy, his so-called executions of your father and brother were unjust murder, his demand for your head must be prevented at all costs, and he must be removed for the good of the realm, so I want to fight on your side", what reason would Ned have to say no? He has a much better chance of winning on Rhaegar's side against Aerys than of beating Rhaegar and then beating Aerys. And if they win, he's not a traitor for fighting for the rightful King Rhaegar. They do have to sit down and have a talk about Lyanna, but I think they could come to an understanding, and there are no other sticking points between them.

The problem is Robert. His main beef wasn't with Aerys, but with Rhaegar, and that talk about Lyanna is the most important thing in the world, and he's only going to talk with his hammer. So there's no way he could be on the same side as Rhaegar.

 

I'm on board with this. I'll even remind everyone that we don't know why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. For all we know he had pefectly valid reasons, and could have explained them to Ned. And he had nothing to do with Rickard and Brandon's deaths.

 

The issue of Ned's bannermen is there, but like Ned they have brains, they can listen, and they must obey their liegelord. Also, helping Rhaegar get the throne could have brought rewards for everyone.

 

So I agree with falcotron that Robert was the real obstacle to end Robert's Rebellion and make it Rhaegar's Rebellion. And the fact that Robert killed Rhaegar was a disaster for everyone. It pretty much meant the end of the Targaryen dynasty, which in turn weakened the royal authority. And since Rhaegar was one of the few people around thinking about the Others at the time, it also endangered the whole world.

[falcotron]

For god's sake, you are imagining everything based on an assumption that ned deeply trusted rhaegar

You don't seem to be able to see anything between absolutes. The entire human world is built around the idea of making it possible for people to talk even when their trust is more than 0% but less than 100%. In your world, what's the point of negotiations, treaties, contracts, legal systems, or any social structure at all, if it's unthinkable to even talk to anyone unless you deeply trust them?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

I'm on board with this. I'll even remind everyone that we don't know why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. For all we know he had pefectly valid reasons, and could have explained them to Ned. And he had nothing to do with Rickard and Brandon's deaths.

 

<snip

Rhaegar and Robert were drinking one night and Robert had more than his cousin realized and started talking about how he just loved Rhae Rhae.  

 

Robert: I love you, man.  You're the best!  I would do anything for you, give you anything you asked for!  Go ahead, ask me.  Anything I have...anything at all, and it's yours!

 

Rhaegar: I'll take your girl.

 

Robert: Done.  She's yours.  In fact, go get her right now!

 

So Rhaegar left to get Lyanna, not knowing that Robert thought he was giving his cousin his latest mistress.

 

A few weeks later Robert is fuming about what's gone down and one of his buddies who was present reminded him of the conversation.

 

Robert: Oh. He meant Lyanna?  Well...oops.

 

Friend: Dude you better hope Ned doesn't find out you gave his sister away.

 

Robert: Shit!  I need a cover story!

[purple-eyes]

You don't seem to be able to see anything between absolutes. The entire human world is built around the idea of making it possible for people to talk even when their trust is more than 0% but less than 100%. In your world, what's the point of negotiations, treaties, contracts, legal systems, or any social structure at all, if it's unthinkable to even talk to anyone unless you deeply trust them?

Fine. I guess rhaegar is just too arrogant or stupid to forget this opportunity to make a peaceful deal. Ned....Ned is just be Ned.

[purple-eyes]

Rhaegar and Robert were drinking one night and Robert had more than his cousin realized and started talking about how he just loved Rhae Rhae.  
 
Robert: I love you, man.  You're the best!  I would do anything for you, give you anything you asked for!  Go ahead, ask me.  Anything I have...anything at all, and it's yours!
 
Rhaegar: I'll take your girl.
 
Robert: Done.  She's yours.  In fact, go get her right now!
 
So Rhaegar left to get Lyanna, not knowing that Robert thought he was giving his cousin his latest mistress.
 
A few weeks later Robert is fuming about what's gone down and one of his buddies who was present reminded him of the conversation.
 
Robert: Oh. He meant Lyanna?  Well...oops.
 
Friend: Dude you better hope Ned doesn't find out you gave his sister away.
 
Robert: Shit!  I need a cover story!

Honestly I always feel hilarious that if robert were a girl, he would absolutely need to marry his cousin rhaegar due to his dragon blood.
And a female version of robert was indeed wild and beautiful and warrior type. Certainly rhaegar's type.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Honestly I always feel hilarious that if robert were a girl, he would absolutely need to marry his cousin rhaegar due to his dragon blood.
And a female version of robert was indeed wild and beautiful and warrior type. Certainly rhaegar's type.

But then Rhaegar runs away with a northerner and Princess Roberta kills him anyway.

[purple-eyes]

But then Rhaegar runs away with a northerner and Princess Roberta kills him anyway.

I highly doubt rhaegar dares to run off with any woman with Roberta's war hammer right there beside him.