Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

[Hodor the Articulate]

Dany said to do it, before any horse was brought in, believing death meant a human life. When she's outside of the tent and Dothraki started to slay each other and pelt her with stones, she thinks the "price is too high" and attempts to crawl back to the tent to stop it. Dany knew it would be human life that would be the price.

I'm sure someone upthread already dealt with this argument. What Dany originally thought was the sacrifice, became irrelevant the moment MMD demanded the horse be brought in, because, shortly after, she thought "If she could buy Drogo’s life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over". Even towards the end, Dany still considered the horse to be a sacrifice: “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.”
 

We need blood means we need blood. That isn't even close to "life must pay for death." Dany knew full well it was a human life when she asked if Mirri meant her's. The horse wasn't even mentioned until after Dany is okay with a life for death. When Dany offers gold and horses, Mirri tells her that gold and horses won't be enough. How can she then think ONE horse will pay the price? It doesn't even make sense.

Yeah, this argument was rebutted upthread, too. Mirri says "It is not a matter of gold or horses" in reply to Dany offering to pay her in gold and horses for her service. That quote has nothing to do with what was required for the spell. When the horse, and only the horse, was slaughtered, there was no reason to believe anything or one else would need sacrificing.
 

I spent a lot of time bringing in the scene from the book because it's on a Kindle I couldn't copy n paste. I'm not asking for anything more than common sense in reading what the writer actually wrote instead adding a whole bunch of irrelevant rationale to see the story from a biased perspective and then expecting others to also.
You are free to do as you wish, I prefer to analyze GRRM's intent by his actually words.

Well, as you can see, above, and in most of my posts in this thread, I have been working with GRRM's actual words AND I've tried to do so without robbing them of context.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Why would Dany ask if she herself needed to die if she didn't believe that a human life was required?

Thinking she, herself, needed to die, doesn't indicate she would only ever consider the "price" to be a human death. After all, iirc, Mirri doesn't specify whose or what's life was to be sacrificed.

 

Obviously, at that moment, Dany doesn't consider what/who it was to be, instead - chalk it up to desperation, relief it wasn't her, naivety, or whatever - but, as I said in the post above, once the horse was slaughtered, there was no reason to assume it was anything/one else.

[Lady Sharya]

I'm sure someone upthread already dealt with this argument. What Dany originally thought was the sacrifice, became irrelevant the moment MMD demanded the horse be brought in, because, shortly after, she thought "If she could buy Drogos life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over". Even towards the end, Dany still considered the horse to be a sacrifice: The price was paid, Dany said. The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.

This isn't a sound argument because what Dany originally thought is what she agreed to when she told Mirri to perform the ritual. What's irrelevant is what she thought after making the decision, unless of coarse she chose to ASK who the sacrifice was or change her mind. Neither of which she did. The horse was needed for blood BEFORE the ritual even began.

It doesn't matter what Dany told herself later, it's what she agreed to at the time that is what she decided was okay to pay for Drogo's life. Buyers remorse. She should have heeded Mirri's warnings to not do it.
 

Yeah, this argument was rebutted upthread, too. Mirri says "It is not a matter of gold or horses" in reply to Dany offering to pay her in gold and horses for her service. That quote has nothing to do with what was required for the spell. When the horse, and only the horse, was slaughtered, there was no reason to believe anything or one else would need sacrificing.

None of the arguments get rebuffed so.;) There was every reason to not consider the horse to be the sacrifice because the horse was slaughtered for it's blood before the ritual began, as Mirri told Dany.
 

Well, as you can see, above, and in most of my posts in this thread, I have been working with GRRM's actual words AND I've tried to do so without robbing them of context.

No I don't see that. I see a robbing of the context of this scene because you aren't paying attention to all the words and meaning, only Dany's thoughts.

[Lady Sharya]

Thinking she, herself, needed to die, doesn't indicate she would only ever consider the "price" to be a human death. After all, iirc, Mirri doesn't specify whose or what's life was to be sacrificed.
 
Obviously, at that moment, Dany doesn't consider what/who it was to be, instead - chalk it up to desperation, relief it wasn't her, naivety, or whatever - but, as I said in the post above, once the horse was slaughtered, there was no reason to assume it was anything/one else.

Why does Dany have no agency here? If Dany didn't accept a human life to be the price then why doesn't she ask what the price is after leaning it wouldn't be HER life. Why did she agree once she learned it wouldn't be here life? What could Dany have thought BEFORE there was any mention of a horse?

Why isn't the Kaleesi in more control here than the slave who has bleeding and blistering feet and sunken eyes from being dragged along behind the kalasar?

[sweetsunray]

I'm sure someone upthread already dealt with this argument. What Dany originally thought was the sacrifice, became irrelevant the moment MMD demanded the horse be brought in, because, shortly after, she thought "If she could buy Drogo’s life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over". Even towards the end, Dany still considered the horse to be a sacrifice: “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.”
 

Yeah, this argument was rebutted upthread, too. Mirri says "It is not a matter of gold or horses" in reply to Dany offering to pay her in gold and horses for her service. That quote has nothing to do with what was required for the spell. When the horse, and only the horse, was slaughtered, there was no reason to believe anything or one else would need sacrificing.
 

Well, as you can see, above, and in most of my posts in this thread, I have been working with GRRM's actual words AND I've tried to do so without robbing them of context.

 

What Dany originally thought is all that matters. Her decision to order Mirri to do it was based on the belief of the payment being a human life. And despite what she claims to have believed days later, at the time of the events outside of the tent, after Mirri killed the horse, she also considers the fighting and dying Dothraki bloodriders "payment", but most especially her own life when the Dothraki start to pelt her with stones.

 

 

Someone threw a stone, and when Dany looked, her shoulder was torn and bloody. "No," she wept, "no, please, stop it, it's too high, the price is too high." More stones came flying. She tried to crawl toward the tent, but Cohollo caught her.

 

In this passage, Dany believes her own life will be the price - after Mirri had already told her it wouldn't be hers, after Mirri had Drogo's horse killed. So, Dany is BS-ing herself and others when she says she believed the horse to be the price alone. Worse, it shows she was fine with other people's lives being the price, except her own. That's when she cries to halt it and crawl back to stop Mirri. And the reason she's BS-ing herself and others is because she cannot admit this rather ugly passage of herself and wants to make Mirri out to be a cheat. I won't deny that at the moment of the horse's sacrifice she reassured herself with the unvoiced belief (in mind and in the books) "Pfffff, good, it's only the horse," but not several minutes later she believes something entirely different - that the bloodriders, her own life are the price, and she deems her own life too high a price. Dany and readers conveniently forget this belief, and cling to the passage of the horse sacrifice, in order not to face that ugly moment.

[Hodor the Articulate]

This isn't a sound argument because what Dany originally thought is what she agreed to when she told Mirri to perform the ritual. What's irrelevant is what she thought after making the decision, unless of coarse she chose to ASK who the sacrifice was or change her mind. Neither of which she did. The horse was needed for blood BEFORE the ritual even began.
 
It doesn't matter what Dany told herself later, it's what she agreed to at the time that is what she decided was okay to pay for Drogo's life. Buyers remorse. She should have heeded Mirri's warnings to not do it.

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only started after the horse was cut. Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
 
Let me ask you this: why do think Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son was the sacrifice?
 

None of the arguments get rebuffed so. ;) There was every reason to not consider the horse to be the sacrifice because the horse was slaughtered for it's blood before the ritual began, as Mirri told Dany.

Not by me; other posters countered against similar arguments a page or two back.
 
Look at it from Dany's perspective:

- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.

- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.

- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.

- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.

 

I think it's pretty reasonable for a person, at this point, to assume the horse was the sacrifice.

 

No I don't see that. I see a robbing of the context of this scene because you aren't paying attention to all the words and meaning, only Dany's thoughts.

??? Dany's thoughts aren't words in this book? I believe I've posted quotes by Mirri as well, though it may not have been in reply to you. I've also formed my interpretation with consideration of a major theme in series - revenge.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Why does Dany have no agency here? If Dany didn't accept a human life to be the price then why doesn't she ask what the price is after leaning it wouldn't be HER life. Why did she agree once she learned it wouldn't be here life? What could Dany have thought BEFORE there was any mention of a horse?

Why isn't the Kaleesi in more control here than the slave who has bleeding and blistering feet and sunken eyes from being dragged along behind the kalasar?

I don't know why she didn't ask. Here are some realistic possibilities:

 

- desperation clouded her judgement.

- she didn't consider her baby would be killed - remember, Dany trusted Mirri, at that point, and one expects to be told, by someone they trust, if their baby is going to be sacrificed.

- Relief clouded her judgement - she was willing to die, and thought it couldn't be worse than that, so when she was told the spell didn't need her life, she felt she could handle anything.

- plain naivety.

 

etc, etc....point is, the assumption that her life would be lost, is not proof that she expected her baby to be killed. And when the horse was offed, it was reasonable to assume it was the sacrifice. So it's supremely unfair to expect Dany, someone who knew nothing of bloodmagic, to know that her baby was the sacrifice. The onus is on the expert to inform the novice.

 

I like that you've emphasized how poorly Mirri was, as if that means she couldn't possibly have victimised Dany. You've, once again, ignored context though. In that tent, Mirri did have power, because she had what Dany desperately wanted - the knowledge on how to revive her beloved husband.

[Hodor the Articulate]

What Dany originally thought is all that matters. Her decision to order Mirri to do it was based on the belief of the payment being a human life. And despite what she claims to have believed days later, at the time of the events outside of the tent, after Mirri killed the horse, she also considers the fighting and dying Dothraki bloodriders "payment", but most especially her own life when the Dothraki start to pelt her with stones.
 
 
In this passage, Dany believes her own life will be the price - after Mirri had already told her it wouldn't be hers, after Mirri had Drogo's horse killed. So, Dany is BS-ing herself and others when she says she believed the horse to be the price alone. Worse, it shows she was fine with other people's lives being the price, except her own. That's when she cries to halt it and crawl back to stop Mirri. And the reason she's BS-ing herself and others is because she cannot admit this rather ugly passage of herself and wants to make Mirri out to be a cheat. I won't deny that at the moment of the horse's sacrifice she reassured herself with the unvoiced belief (in mind and in the books) "Pfffff, good, it's only the horse," but not several minutes later she believes something entirely different - that the bloodriders, her own life are the price, and she deems her own life too high a price. Dany and readers conveniently forget this belief, and cling to the passage of the horse sacrifice, in order not to face that ugly moment.

 
See my reply to Lady Sharya, above. That she considers the bloodriders, etc, to be "payment" further supports my arguments, because she only does so after they start dying. Note that she tried to stop the ritual, at that point, but couldn't manage it physically. That shows she would have retracted her original consent, had she been properly informed of what the sacrifice actually was.

 

And boy, is that some interpretation! I'm genuinely impressed that you've managed to paint Dany as entitled, arrogant, selfish, and possibly crazy, all in an interpretation of a single short passage. Most Dany detractors usually only manage one pejorative adjective per scene. Bravo! :bowdown:

 

I disagree on said interpretation, though. Since Dany has already acknowledged that she knows she's not the sacrifice, logically, that means the "price" that is "too high" is not herself, but the people who are dying, or, rather (since I doubt she has any sympathy for the mofos trying to kill her) the escalating chaos, and the possibility that those she cares for might die, including her son. I don't doubt she feared for her own life, as well, but she's shown, on more than one occasion, that she puts others' wellbeings above her own (not her enemies', of course).

 

There. That's much less of a logical leap than what you've written, I think, and less assumptions, too.

 

ETA: I take the construction of the passage - i.e. that she weeps for everything to stop, after she gets hurt - to be because GRRM needed to show how much the situation had deteriorated. He needed Dany (and the readers) to get lost in the chaos, to feel the despair. Note that Dany doesn't try to pull the plug when her life was first threatened. And later on, she recognises everyone that died as "the price": “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.”

[sweetsunray]

 
See my reply to Lady Sharya, above. That she considers the bloodriders, etc, to be "payment" further supports my arguments, because she only does so after they start dying. Note that she tried to stop the ritual, at that point, but couldn't manage it physically. That shows she would have retracted her original consent, had she been properly informed of what the sacrifice actually was.

 

And boy, is that some interpretation! I'm genuinely impressed that you've managed to paint Dany as entitled, arrogant, selfish, and possibly crazy, all in an interpretation of a single short passage. Most Dany detractors usually only manage one pejorative adjective per scene. Bravo! :bowdown:

 

Ad Hominem arguments don't devalue the arguments I brought forward. Furthermore it's strawman. Where did I post that Dany is entitled, selfish, and crazy as a character? Self-deluding yourself is pretty normal mental behaviour... It's called avoidance of cognitive dissonance. It's not crazy, because everybody does almost daily, in small and big ways. I don't have an issue either with Dany not wanting to sacrifice her own life for Drogo. But she's not a saint either, when she gives the order to perform a blood sacrific ritual believing it requires human sacrifice, but not hers, when she gives the go-ahead. GRRM writes GREY characters, not saintly characters whose judgement is infallible. But oh my, if someone dares to point out a thought process about Dany that does not agree with the "infallible, innocent victim who's being betrayed by the evil, vicious Mirri" then you suddenly become a Dany detractor. It certainly does not make me respect your arguments very much at all.

 

I disagree on said interpretation, though. Since Dany has already acknowledged that she knows she's not the sacrifice, logically, that means the "price" that is "too high" is not herself, but the people who are dying, or, rather (since I doubt she has any sympathy for the mofos trying to kill her) the escalating chaos, and the possibility that those she cares for might die, including her son. I don't doubt she feared for her own life, as well, but she's shown, on more than one occasion, that she puts others' wellbeings above her own (not her enemies', of course).

 

And still Dany only starts to say the "price is too high" once Dothraki start to stone her. But the main point is that at that moment she regards the "price" very much as human lives, and not just Drogo's horse. Her afterwards claiming she believes the horse would be the sacrifice is a distortion and selective memory of her various beliefs... Human sacrifice but not mine, oh a horse, Drogo's bloodriders... shit Me!

 

There. That's much less of a logical leap than what you've written, I think, and less assumptions, too.

 

No need to assume anything. It's right there in the text. At least I include the complete text, and am not selective, and ignore other passages.

 

ETA: I take the construction of the passage - i.e. that she weeps for everything to stop, after she gets hurt - to be because GRRM needed to show how much the situation had deteriorated. He needed Dany (and the readers) to get lost in the chaos, to feel the despair. Note that Dany doesn't try to pull the plug when her life was first threatened. And later on, she recognises everyone that died as "the price": “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.”

 

 

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only started after the horse was cut. Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 

It is very relevant because Dany orders the ritual to be performed before ANY HORSE is ordered inside!
 
Let me ask you this: why do think Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son was the sacrifice?

Because Mirri was not sure that Rhaego would be the price. Mirri's talking hindsight.
 

Not by me; other posters countered against similar arguments a page or two back.
 
Look at it from Dany's perspective:

- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.

- She asks whether she is the sacrifice.

- Mirri says no

- Dany says "Do it!"  (there completed the list of events and Dany's perspective)

- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.

- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.

- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.that the blood is the way.

 

I think it's pretty reasonable for a person, at this point, to assume the horse was the sacrifice.

I mentioned that it's not completely unreasonable for Dany to at that moment think.... mmmm, maybe the horse is all that's needed, but this is not what she believed before she ordered Mirri to perform the magic, and it certainly was not what she believed minutes later outside of the tent.

 

??? Dany's thoughts aren't words in this book? I believe I've posted quotes by Mirri as well, though it may not have been in reply to you. I've also formed my interpretation with consideration of a major theme in series - revenge.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I'm going to do the reply-in-quote thing, too. My replies are in blue.
 

Ad Hominem arguments don't devalue the arguments I brought forward. Furthermore it's strawman. Where did I post that Dany is entitled, selfish, and crazy as a character? Self-deluding yourself is pretty normal mental behaviour... It's called avoidance of cognitive dissonance. It's not crazy, because everybody does almost daily, in small and big ways. Oh, please! Your interpretation implied all those things. And jeez, it was a fucking joke. I don't have an issue either with Dany not wanting to sacrifice her own life for Drogo. But she's not a saint either, when she gives the order to perform a blood sacrific ritual believing it requires human sacrifice, but not hers, when she gives the go-ahead.
 
I've already argued about this, so see my other posts, I guess. Not sure what Dany's morality has to do with whether Mirri purposely killed Rhaego or not (that's still the topic of this thread, no?).
 
I disagree on said interpretation, though. Since Dany has already acknowledged that she knows she's not the sacrifice, logically, that means the "price" that is "too high" is not herself, but the people who are dying, or, rather (since I doubt she has any sympathy for the mofos trying to kill her) the escalating chaos, and the possibility that those she cares for might die, including her son. I don't doubt she feared for her own life, as well, but she's shown, on more than one occasion, that she puts others' wellbeings above her own (not her enemies', of course).
 
And still Dany only starts to say the "price is too high" once Dothraki start to stone her. But the main point is that at that moment she regards the "price" very much as human lives, and not just Drogo's horse. Her afterwards claiming she believes the horse would be the sacrifice is a distortion and selective memory of her various beliefs... Human sacrifice but not mine, oh a horse, Drogo's bloodriders... shit Me!
 
I addressed structure in my edited version. I assume you saw it, since it's in your post, but I'll copy-paste here, anyway:
 
ETA: I take the structure of the passage - i.e. that she weeps for everything to stop, after she gets hurt - to be because GRRM needed to show how much the situation had deteriorated. He needed Dany (and the readers) to get lost in the chaos, to feel the despair. Note that Dany doesn't try to pull the plug when her life was first threatened. And later on, she recognises everyone that died as "the price": The price was paid, Dany said. The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.
 
And there's no inconsistencies. Here is the quote I assume you are talking about:
 

You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.

Mirri tells her "only death could pay her life" in the tent, so Dany is referring, not to what she believed at the time, but to what she had thought in the tent. I know, I know, she couldn't have known it was a horse before Mirri brought the thing in...but this less a "distortion of memory", and more "trimming the fat". I mean, she could have gone on and on, mentioning everything that happened in between ("...only death could pay for life. I thought you meant me, but you said it wasn't, and I was really relieved. Then I thought...) but it's easier on the readers, as well as more natural sounding, for the character to get straight to the point.

No need to assume anything. It's right there in the text.
Your whole interpretation is hinged on the assumption that Dany goes out of her way to blame Mirri. I'm too tired to go through it all now, though, and I've already argued why your interpretation is  flawed, so I guess I'll leave it.
 At least I include the complete text, and am not selective, and ignore other passages.
What have I been selective about? What've I ignored? I've done inline quotes to save space, but only where appropriate imo. And I've tried very hard to not take things out of context - triple checked everything.

[Hodor the Articulate]

 

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only started after the horse was cut. Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
It is very relevant because Dany orders the ritual to be performed before ANY HORSE is ordered inside!
I'm just going to start copy-pasting now...

 

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only STARTED AFTER the horse was cut. THEREFORE, Mirri had the time to inform Dany of the actual sacrifice.

Let me ask you this: why do think Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son was the sacrifice?
Because Mirri was not sure that Rhaego would be the price. Mirri's talking hindsight.
She's done the spell before, and she's presented as a knowledgeable and competent mage. What evidence have you, that says she was uncertain as to the price?

 

And even if she is unsure about that, she definitely knew a human sacrifice was required. Why not inform Dany of it, and that it might be her son?

 
Not by me; other posters countered against similar arguments a page or two back.
 
Look at it from Dany's perspective:
- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.
- She asks whether she is the sacrifice.
- Mirri says no
- Dany says "Do it!"  (there completed the list of events and Dany's perspective) :rolleyes: No need for the additions, thanks. I omitted them because they were irrelevant to my point - that the appearance of the horse implied it was the sacrifice. I also didn't want to distract from the connection between the needing of a sacrifice and the killing of the horse.
- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.
- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.
- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.that the blood is the way. ...which implies she is going to kill the horse, no? What, is Dany supposed to expect her to give the horse a paper cut? And I can't imagine what the other half of the quote implies, other than "that is the way" [to revive Drogo].

 

I think it's pretty reasonable for a person, at this point, to assume the horse was the sacrifice.
I mentioned that it's not completely unreasonable for Dany to at that moment think.... mmmm, maybe the horse is all that's needed, but this is not what she believed before she ordered Mirri to perform the magic, and it certainly was not what she believed minutes later outside of the tent.
And I mentioned that it doesn't matter what she thought before, because it was all about the horse, when Mirri said she needed it. Again, Dany only started to think "the price" was not just the horse, once others started dying, as well. Thus, none of this is any indication that Dany always knew the price.

 

[Lady Sharya]

Look at it from Dany's perspective:
- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.- She asks whether she is the sacrifice.- Mirri says no- Dany says "Do it!"  (there completed the list of events and Dany's perspective) :rolleyes: No need for the additions, thanks. I omitted them because they were irrelevant to my point - that the appearance of the horse implied it was the sacrifice. I also didn't want to distract from the connection between the needing of a sacrifice and the killing of the horse.
- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.
- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.
- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.[b]that the blood is the way.

All of these arguments rely on two factors that I would like to address rather than reading you cut & pastes replies:
1. The strawman that either sweetsunray@ or I have ever said that Dany or Mirri knew or accepted that the price to pay for Drogo's life was Dany's baby. I do not believe either of them even anticipated Rhaego's death. Mirri had nothing to do with Dany's premature labor or her being carried into the tent. Dany even thinks later that Jorah was responsible...until her anger got the better of her and she chose to blame Mirri.

2. You argument hinges upon ignoring the exchange between Dany and Mirri on what the price would be (Dany's question & Mirri's answer) while our argument includes the FULL text, in context of the events taking place.

It's your choice to dismiss text you believe to be irrelevant because it contradicts your view. But in doing so, your view becomes an inaccurate representation of the story.

[UnViserion]

She told Dany to stay out of the tent. She didn't force her to go into labor.

 

Dany choosing to pursue the blood magic is what turned the Dothraki midwives against her in the first place.

 

I use to really dislike MMD but she gets the blame for a few events here that she had no control over whatsoever.

[Severiality]

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only started after the horse was cut. Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
 
Let me ask you this: why do think Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son was the sacrifice?
 

Not by me; other posters countered against similar arguments a page or two back.
 
Look at it from Dany's perspective:

- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.

- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.

- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.

- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.

 

I think it's pretty reasonable for a person, at this point, to assume the horse was the sacrifice.

 

??? Dany's thoughts aren't words in this book? I believe I've posted quotes by Mirri as well, though it may not have been in reply to you. I've also formed my interpretation with consideration of a major theme in series - revenge.

But she already gave her consent.  She wanted to save Drogo no matter the cost.  She acted rashly, a not uncommon theme in her story.  And it all comes down to her.  She has the power and responsibility.  She orders the ritual to be done without thinking that her khalasar will hate her and try to kill them.  She doesn't care what life will be sacrificed unless its her own. 

 

Rash.  Not aware or mindful of the consequences of her actions.  Sounds like the Dany we all know.

[sweetsunray]

 

Oh, please! Your interpretation implied all those things. And jeez, it was a fucking joke.
 

 

I highlighted a quote that shows that Dany's beliefs about the price vary several times in different situations, and that she attempts to take action against continuation of the ritual right after the Dothraki physically start to target her. And that she afterwards is very selective about what she believed the price to be in order to villify Mirri enough in her mind in order to scapegoat Mirri for it all. What I meant to imply is that Dany is an unreliable narrator. This is emphasised by her thought "if I look back I'm lost".

 

Whatever other moral implications you took out of it is your own interpretation. 

 

And "oh it was a joke"... I find that one of the poorest answers in defense of poor or insulting argumentation. What's that supposed to mean? "Don't take my arguments seriously, they're only meant as a joke."? Or does it mean "I attempt to paint posters as Dany-hater as a joke"? Targeting a poster and then saying "it was only a joke" is to me an attempt to make someone who confronts you with your words as silly... "Oh, she doesn't even get a joke." It's an attempt to get a free pass on writing and claiming whatever you wish about another poster and without that poster having the right to confront you about it.   I personally find "it was only a joke" a saying that leaves me with a foul aftertaste. Either own your words, or don't write them at all. Don't subvert it as another attempt to disparage my intelligence.

 

 

I addressed structure in my edited version. I assume you saw it, since it's in your post, but I'll copy-paste here, anyway:
 
ETA: I take the structure of the passage - i.e. that she weeps for everything to stop, after she gets hurt - to be because GRRM needed to show how much the situation had deteriorated. He needed Dany (and the readers) to get lost in the chaos, to feel the despair. Note that Dany doesn't try to pull the plug when her life was first threatened. And later on, she recognises everyone that died as "the price": The price was paid, Dany said. The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.

 

The main point is that Dany believes the price to include human life, several minutes after the horse was sacrificed, just as much as she believed it to mean human life before she gave Mirri the go-ahead and before any horse was brought inside. This is something you have failed to address at all. And that she bans the memory of that belief out of her mind, when she much much later confronts Mirri with, "I believed the price was only the horse." Your argument was about how Mirri deceived her and Dany solely believed it to be the horse. But both before the horse and after there are two explicit passages where she clearly believes it to be human sacrifice. You try to dismiss and tiptoe around both before- and after- horse passages so you can be as conveniently selective about Dany's beliefs as she is herself.

 

Sure, you can interprete it as setting the mood of despair, of chaos... but to me the complete scene with bloodriders shouting and threatening and shoving and stoning makes for chaos. The passage mostly serves to show us Dany's response to all of this and how she interpretes it in relation to the blood magic ritual. Her response reveals she considers the consequences of her initial choice too late and wishes to undo it when she can't anymore (and yes this is a recurring theme in Dany's arc), and that she regards the chaos and killing outside as caused by magic.

 

Of course, Dany's beliefs during the events do not suddenly make it a fact that the Dothraki anger and aggression is magically induced. They're not. Their aggression and revulsion against magic would have occurred always. They showed their hatred and revulsion and willingness to kill people they believe to dabble with magic from the get go at Mirri's village. This is basically the challenge with characters as unreliable narrators written in 3rd person - we get a chance to have an objective description events as well as how the POV character processes those events. We can step into the mind of the POV to understand the character, but we should never forget the facts about the events when doing that. But when we're only talking about Dany's beliefs on the events, this passage shows that Dany believed human lives could be part of the price, even after the horse was killed. And your quote about Dany including the bloodriders when she says to Mirri how it was paid and paid and paid so quickly after her selective memory of "But I believed the horse was the sacrifice," links back to that passage and how at the time she believed it to be a sacrifice for Drogo.

 

And there's no inconsistencies. Here is the quote I assume you are talking about:
 

You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.

 

Mirri tells her "only death could pay her life" in the tent, so Dany is referring, not to what she believed at the time, but to what she had thought in the tent. I know, I know, she couldn't have known it was a horse before Mirri brought the thing in...but this less a "distortion of memory", and more "trimming the fat". I mean, she could have gone on and on, mentioning everything that happened in between ("...only death could pay for life. I thought you meant me, but you said it wasn't, and I was really relieved. Then I thought...) but it's easier on the readers, as well as more natural sounding, for the character to get straight to the point.

 

It is inconsistent. Because she did believe it to be human life, before and after the horse was brought in. The complete sequence of beliefs is

1) Only death can pay for life -> she thought it was to be human sacrifice.

2) Dany says "Do it".

3) The horse is brought in and killed -> she hopes/thinks the horse will be the sole sacrifice

4) Dany goes outside and the Dothraki become murderous -> she thinks the resulting and threatening carnage will be the sacrifice

 

Dany has 3 variating beliefs about the sacrifice, and when she decides to go the "I feel cheated" route, she picks only one of those 3, not acknowledging the other 2. And this is not just "trimming the fat", because Mirri right after confronts her with her "selective memory" and her mental tricks to lie to herself, and when she probes her own mind about it, Dany purposefully blocks the reflective process with "If I look back I'm lost". And then she does include the people who died and who she believed -at the time- to be the price, but without acknowleding even for herself her own culpability in it. To just only select the one sentence and take it to be GRRM only "trimming the fat" when GRRM has Mirri confront Dany by pointing out that she told herself a lie (exactly what we're discussing here), and that Dany's mental response to this is consciously blocking any self-reflection is some of the worst contextual reading performed. This is the first event and first time we ever see this self-blocking thought of Dany that reoccurs over and over ever after, but you just dismiss it as "trimming the fat". :rolleyes:

 

 

"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. "The price was paid," Dany said. "The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid."

 

Your whole interpretation is hinged on the assumption that Dany goes out of her way to blame Mirri. I'm too tired to go through it all now, though, and I've already argued why your interpretation is  flawed, so I guess I'll leave it.

 

My interpretation of Mirri's guilt is not based on Dany's beliefs. They are based on the several events and descriptions of it, Mirri not being established as a skinchanger, let alone more powerful than Varamyr or Bloodraven, and thus the logical assumption that all the people involved in the events were free and at mental liberty to make their own choices. My interpretation on Dany's beliefs and self-delusion are based on how we get to be a witness to her self-censuring mental process to block any reflection on her own choices, actions and beliefs when it comes to her personal responsibility in this, and how when Mirri challenges her to do this, her first impulse is to become antagonistic to Mirri.

 

What have I been selective about? What've I ignored? I've done inline quotes to save space, but only where appropriate imo. And I've tried very hard to not take things out of context - triple checked everything.

 

Euhm see above... completely ignoring the rest of the passage about Dany's claim that she believed the horse to be the sole sacrifice, including a conscious thought that shows Dany blocks any attempt to reflect on her own choices, beliefs and actions and thus culpability, in order to dismiss it as "GRRM trimming the fat".

[sweetsunray]

But it is irrelevant, because the ritual had only STARTED AFTER the horse was cut. THEREFORE, Mirri had the time to inform Dany of the actual sacrifice.

 

Wow, how anyone can say the moment where Dany decides to order Mirri to perform the ritual is irrelevant is beyond my comprehension. She said to Mirri "Do it!" while believing the price to be human sacrifice. That can never be irrelevant. 

 

She's done the spell before, and she's presented as a knowledgeable and competent mage. What evidence have you, that says she was uncertain as to the price?

 

The lack of evidence that Mirri was certain it would be Rhaego. And just plain logic - the ritual can be performed on the request of non-pregnant women and men. That would make it a tad difficult for unborn children to be the price. Hence the price/sacrifice (whose life) will vary, depending the individual. Mirri only showed certainty it wouldn't be the life of the one making the request. 

 

And even if she is unsure about that, she definitely knew a human sacrifice was required. Why not inform Dany of it, and that it might be her son?

 

Mirri said "only death can pay for life" and Dany had no comprehension disabilities to mean it meant a human life, because her first thought was "My life?". There was no misunderstanding between Mirri and Dany about death meaning human life.

 

 

Look at it from Dany's perspective:
- She had just been told that the spell needed a sacrifice.
- She asks whether she is the sacrifice.
- Mirri says no
- Dany says "Do it!"  (there completed the list of events and Dany's perspective) :rolleyes: No need for the additions, thanks. I omitted them because they were irrelevant to my point - that the appearance of the horse implied it was the sacrifice. I also didn't want to distract from the connection between the needing of a sacrifice and the killing of the horse.
- Then, Mirri brings in Drogo's horse.
- Dany asks what she's going to do with the horse.
- Mirri replies that killing it is the way to bring Drogo back.that the blood is the way. ...which implies she is going to kill the horse, no? What, is Dany supposed to expect her to give the horse a paper cut? And I can't imagine what the other half of the quote implies, other than "that is the way" [to revive Drogo].

 

And you dare to ask me why you're told to be selective? You dismiss very relevant passages about Dany's various beliefs "because they were irrelevant to your point". How VERY convenient.

 

Yes, it implies she is going to kill the horse. More, Dany and us see her kill the horse, and use the blood to prepare Drogo for the actual ritual. She then also explains that Dany must go outside and not enter the tent when she starts to sing and death will dance in the tent that night. It should be very obvious that the horse is "prep" not the ritual, or even the life, since there otherwise would be no reason for Mirri to warn Dany against entering the the tent.

[Light a wight tonight]

 

A word of advice: When you summon demons, make sure to contain them in a circle and allow no one to cross the circle.

Around here we use a pentacle. If a circle works for you, that's nice, but the pentacle looks way cooler.

[Darkstream]

Hey guys, some great analysis here, not surprising considering the quality of posters on this thread. I am in agreement that Danny knew what the price was going to be, regardless of what she's trying to tell herself, as it seems some people around here are doing as well. :rolleyes:

One question I have, that's sort of throwing me off on this whole thing. If we consider the hypothetical that everything went as was planned and nobody enters the tent, what would the results have been? If this spell required a human sacrifice, what was Mirri's original intentions if there was not originally someone in the tent to sacrifice?

I realize that there was also the dragon eggs to consider, but I'm of the understanding Mirri was not aware of their presence at the time.

I'm not sure if this was addressed in the previous thread, or if I just missed something obvious, but was curious to your thoughts on this matter.

[Tucu]

Hey guys, some great analysis here, not surprising considering the quality of posters on this thread. I am in agreement that Danny knew what the price was going to be, regardless of what she's trying to tell herself, as it seems some people around here are doing as well. :rolleyes:

One question I have, that's sort of throwing me off on this whole thing. If we consider the hypothetical that everything went as was planned and nobody enters the tent, what would the results have been. If this spell required a human sacrifice, what was Mirri's original intentions if there was not originally someone in the tent to sacrifice?

I realize that there was also the dragon eggs to consider, but I'm not sure if Mirri was aware of their presence at the time.

I'm not sure if this was addressed in the previous thread, or if I just missed something obvious, but was curious to your thoughts on this matter.

I think Mirri's intent was to transform Drogo into a vegetable as a laugh/revenge. Someone outside the tent had to die for this. The presence of the dragon eggs and Dany and company interrupting the ritual brought unexpected consequences.

[Darkstream]

I think Mirri's intent was to transform Drogo into a vegetable as a laugh/revenge. Someone outside the tent had to die for this. The presence of the dragon eggs and Dany and company interrupting the ritual brought unexpected consequences.

Ok, but what was the reason in establishing a boundry that nobody was to enter if the spell was going to effect people outside the tent anyway? Are you saying that just some random person outside was going to be sacrificed? And if so, how could Mirri know that it wouldn't be Danny herself?