Roberts Rebellion

[Kaibaman]

It's complete nonsense to say Robert was bad as Aerys. Robert had a lot of faults, that's true. And did some bad things too.  But Aerys was on a level with people like Joffrey and Ramsay. Just terrible. And the rebels did several wrong things. But, again, Aerys is on a whole different level.

Well the difference between the two kings is that Aerys despite his ineptness actually put the effort into sitting on the Iron Throne and ruling the kingdoms while Robert couldn't be bothered filling in his prescribed role. Yes Aerys was cruel and callous but at least people respected him somewhat for at least trying and that since he ruled with an iron fist, for the most part people knew they couldn't mess around and get away with it unlike Robert who pretty much made corruption legal during his reign and let people get away with all sorts of shit without a care in the world.

Just look at how an old man who lived through Aerys's reign thinks of how good of a king Robert was:

"When the old king was still alive, he'd not have stood for this." "King Robert?" Arya asked, forgetting herself. "King Aerys, gods grace him," the old man said, too loudly Arya Chapter 26, ACOK

Its quite telling how good of a king Robert was when a person who lived through of both his reign and the madman who preceded him to prefer living during the reign of the madman. 

[purple-eyes]

to be fair, if the whole thing of Lyanna, brandon and Rickard happened in the reality (in old time, not modern world), 

1. their daughter mysteriously disappeared with crown prince who was indeed trying to depose the king. 

2. this unfaithful crown prince publicly insulted his wife to crown this woman to honor house stark

3. this daughter is the betroth of a powerful lord, together they made a very powerful half-kingdom alliance which can threaten the throne. 

4. brandon stormed into the royal palace and publicly tried to murder the crown prince. 

 

How do you know Rhaegar and House Stark and House Baratheon were not doing a secret rebellion against the throne?

Seriously, I bet in many countries (old time), House stark would be completely wiped out for high treason. 

Aerys is not so bad on this. It is understandable. 

 

 

[OldGimletEye]

Well the difference between the two kings is that Aerys despite his ineptness actually put the effort into sitting on the Iron Throne and ruling the kingdoms while Robert couldn't be bothered filling in his prescribed role.

I'll just repeat von Manstein,  repeating Moltke, that there are four kinds of officers: 1) There are  the dumb lazy officers - these are relatively harmless, don't worry about them. 2) There are hard working ambitious officers - make these your staff officers, 3) Smart and lazy officers - these are suited for the highest levels of command, and 4) Dumb and hardworking officers - get rid of these officers immediately. They are dangerous. They create unnecesssary work for everybody.

 Yes Aerys was cruel and callous but at least people respected him somewhat for at least trying and that since he ruled with an iron fist, for the most part people knew they couldn't mess around and get away with it unlike Robert who pretty much made corruption legal during his reign and let people get away with all sorts of shit without a care in the world.

 Yeah, they respected him so much, that evidently his own son, was plotting to get rid of Aerys. And the world book tells us that Aerys had his share of sychophants,lick spittles who spoke badly of Rhaegar, evidently to get Aerys favors, which included money. And then we were told that the tension between factions got so bad that it was something like before the Dance  of the Dragons. And Aerys was so respected, his own lords revolted. Let's all take a deep breath and smell the deep respect for Aerys. 

 

 

Just look at how an old man who lived through Aerys's reign thinks of how good of a king Robert was:

 

Its quite telling how good of a king Robert was when a person who lived through of both his reign and the madman who preceded him to prefer living during the reign of the madman.

Does the political science department at the Khaleesi National Party consider the opinion of one person to be a valid statistical sample?

[purple-eyes]

 

I'll just repeat von Manstein,  repeating Moltke, that there are four kinds of officers: 1) There are  the dumb lazy officers - these are relatively harmless, don't worry about them. 2) There are hard working ambitious officers - make these your staff officers, 3) Smart and lazy officers - these are suited for the highest levels of command, and 4) Dumb and hardworking officers - get rid of these officers immediately. They are dangerous. They create unnecesssary work for everybody.

 Yeah, they respected him so much, that evidently his own son, was plotting to get rid of Aerys. And the world book tells us that Aerys had his share of sychophants,lick spittles who spoke badly of Rhaegar, evidently to get Aerys favors, which included money. And then we were told that the tension between factions got so bad that it was something like before the Dance  of the Dragons. And Aerys was so respected, his own lords revolted. Let's all take a deep breath and smell the deep respect for Aerys. 

 

 

Does the political science department at the Khaleesi National Party consider the opinion of one person to be a valid statistical sample?

even after Aerys did what he did, still half country was loyal to him. 

Let us face it, if rhaegar did not stir the war by his love affair, Aerys would stay in red keep forever until he dies. He will burn some people, he will rape his wife, sure, but thousands of innocent people would not die for the love life of lyanna and rhaegar. There would be no war. 

[Kaibaman]

 

I'll just repeat von Manstein,  repeating Moltke, that there are four kinds of officers: 1) There are  the dumb lazy officers - these are relatively harmless, don't worry about them. 2) There are hard working ambitious officers - make these your staff officers, 3) Smart and lazy officers - these are suited for the highest levels of command, and 4) Dumb and hardworking officers - get rid of these officers immediately. They are dangerous. They create unnecesssary work for everybody.

 Yeah, they respected him so much, that evidently his own son, was plotting to get rid of Aerys. And the world book tells us that Aerys had his share of sychophants,lick spittles who spoke badly of Rhaegar, evidently to get Aerys favors, which included money. And then we were told that the tension between factions got so bad that it was something like before the Dance  of the Dragons. And Aerys was so respected, his own lords revolted. Let's all take a deep breath and smell the deep respect for Aerys. 

Does the political science department at the Khaleesi National Party consider the opinion of one person to be a valid statistical sample?

Oh and you don't consider Robert's hand's off approach to ruling a continent spanning empire at all dangerous? I mean come on the guy was so lax in dealing with the crimes and corruption of his kingdom that he wouldn't even punish mooks like Janos Slynt for taking bribes and selling off positions because "They all steal, better one we know the next man might be worse". 

You know its no wonder we have officials like Littlefinger can get away with running up debts for the kingdom and embezzling gods only know how much money over these glorious years of Baratheon rule because their king won't bother to make some oversights on your dealings or punish you for corrupt activities so long as he doesn't have to sit on those boring Small Council Meetings. Yeah that is just how respected the great King Robert was. 

Yeah Aerys was known for his cronyism but at least he didn't turn a blind eye, if you stole from him and he finds out you knew you're in for it because everybody knew how tough on crime Mad Aerys was. And yes Tywin had a hand in making him tons of money but unlike Robert he didn't piss it all away in a short span of time for his own amusement. 

[Celtic Cross]

to be fair, if the whole thing of Lyanna, brandon and Rickard happened in the reality (in old time, not modern world), 

1. their daughter mysteriously disappeared with crown prince who was indeed trying to depose the king. 

2. this unfaithful crown prince publicly insulted his wife to crown this woman to honor house stark

3. this daughter is the betroth of a powerful lord, together they made a very powerful half-kingdom alliance which can threaten the throne. 

4. brandon stormed into the royal palace and publicly tried to murder the crown prince. 

 

How do you know Rhaegar and House Stark and House Baratheon were not doing a secret rebellion against the throne?

Seriously, I bet in many countries (old time), House stark would be completely wiped out for high treason. 

Aerys is not so bad on this. It is understandable. 

 

 

The last point sort of contradicts the rest. If Rhaegar and House Stark were plotting together against Aerys, why would Brandon come to court wanting to kill Rhaegar? A grand scheme to trick Aerys into a false sense of security? I think most sane rulers would take the whole thing at face value, that an incident occured between the Prince and one of the Lords and needed to be resolved. I understand Aerys was paranoid beyond reason, and while that explains his actions, it doesn't justify them. 

 

Even if someone imagined the Starks as "treasonous" (based on very flimsy evidence), there would surely be more diplomatic options than "completely wiping out" the house.   This wasn't the Darklyns or Reynes, this was the paramount house of the North and an ancient one at that. The consequences would be tremendous. Even Tywin didn't dream of killing Ned Stark when he was making plans of fighting him. 

[khal drogon]

 Because some Dany fans are under the delusion that just because Robert was a bad king, and just becuse the rebels did some bad things, and because the rebels made some questionable decisions, somehow all that automatically makes Dany the "rightful" monarch of Westeros.  But, it doesn't.

 

Except no one brought "Dany, the rightful ruler" here except you.

[khal drogon]

My problem with RR is the hypocrisy of the rebels. They rebelled to fight against the crimes of King Aerys. They had a perfect justification for the rebellion. Then they reward someone for a crime much worse than what Aerys did. This for me defeated the purpose of the rebellion. Aerys did a crime. The rebels topped it and got the throne. That's it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

My problem with RR is the hypocrisy of the rebels. They rebelled to fight against the crimes of King Aerys. They had a perfect justification for the rebellion. Then they reward someone for a crime much worse than what Aerys did. This for me defeated the purpose of the rebellion. Aerys did a crime. The rebels topped it and got the throne. That's it.

Who was rewarded?

[khal drogon]

Who was rewarded?

Tywin. By marrying into House Lannister. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin. By marrying into House Lannister. 

That was not a reward for what he did at Kings Landing.

Robert and Jon wanted to secure the Throne and the Lannisters happened to be both one of the (if not the) most powerful Houses in the realm with a beautiful daughter at the right marrying age,

I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne.

Nothing to do with rewarding Tywin, she would have been considered no matter what.

[redtree]

That was not a reward for what he did at Kings Landing.

Robert and Jon wanted to secure the Throne and the Lannisters happened to be both one of the (if not the) most powerful Houses in the realm with a beautiful daughter at the right marrying age,

I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne.

Nothing to do with rewarding Tywin, she would have been considered no matter what.

They fought for unlawful murder and here was a lord who did exactly just that, and a kingsguard from that very same family (people had no idea about Aerys's plan and Jaime didn't tell), and they got not even a slap on the wrist . And then they proceed to make the daughter of the said lord a queen, lifted their status to be part of the new royal. That is a reward

 

[purple-eyes]

 

The last point sort of contradicts the rest. If Rhaegar and House Stark were plotting together against Aerys, why would Brandon come to court wanting to kill Rhaegar? A grand scheme to trick Aerys into a false sense of security? I think most sane rulers would take the whole thing at face value, that an incident occured between the Prince and one of the Lords and needed to be resolved. I understand Aerys was paranoid beyond reason, and while that explains his actions, it doesn't justify them. 

 

Even if someone imagined the Starks as "treasonous" (based on very flimsy evidence), there would surely be more diplomatic options than "completely wiping out" the house.   This wasn't the Darklyns or Reynes, this was the paramount house of the North and an ancient one at that. The consequences would be tremendous. Even Tywin didn't dream of killing Ned Stark when he was making plans of fighting him. 

people can have internal conflicts and people can also pretend to do something for a bigger plan. If Dario can suddenly murder his coworker, who knows what is real motivation of Brandon? Who knows if he is not planning to murder rhaegar, his real purpose is to use this excuse to get into red keep and murder Aerys? 

Reynes is the second most powerful house in west, they are to lannister just like stark to the throne. (Maybe less, we have tyrell and west) 

if tywin can wipe them out, Aerys can wipe out stark too. 

My point is, I am not saying Aerys is a good ruler, sure, it is nice that if he says hi to Brandon and try to comfort him and investigate the truth, however, that is not what most of the kings and emperors would do, in the reality. 

I never heard anybody ran into the royal palace and shouted to kill the royal heir and managed to come back alive (if he did not successfully depose the throne), did you? 

In the real history, king can certainly wipe out the whole house for treason and possible revenge. Even dany killed so many people, were all of them deserved for death? 

House stark will be over. In reality, Aerys did not even use some funny trial. 

They will be declared as treason. 

This is why half the country still fight with the rebellions. 

They are not stupid. Rebellion is doing treason. 

 

[The Wolves]

That was not a reward for what he did at Kings Landing.

Robert and Jon wanted to secure the Throne and the Lannisters happened to be both one of the (if not the) most powerful Houses in the realm with a beautiful daughter at the right marrying age,

I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne.

Nothing to do with rewarding Tywin, she would have been considered no matter what.

Marrying Cersei is still the most useless decision that was made. 

It accomplished nothing but for grudges to be build over a decade  it only benefited the Lannisters and proves how dumb Arryn was.  

 

[BadWo1f]

But something important here is that Mad King started all of this, it was not Rebels who just happened to be in Kings Landing to kill little kids to feed their desires. Plus, didn't important leaders of Rebellion like Ned Stark suggest punishment of Tywin? 

[The Wolves]

But something important here is that Mad King started all of this, it was not Rebels who just happened to be in Kings Landing to kill little kids to feed their desires. Plus, didn't important leaders of Rebellion like Ned Stark suggest punishment of Tywin? 

Yeah Ned did call what happened to Elia and her children murder but than that dumbass that they decided to make king stood over their bodies dismissed their deaths and rewarded their murderer(Tywin)and let his henchmen off. 

 

Yeah Aerys started it but the rebels were ultimately worse in the war and for Westeros. 

[purple-eyes]

Marrying Cersei is still the most useless decision that was made. 

It accomplished nothing but for grudges to be build over a decade  it only benefited the Lannisters and proves how dumb Arryn was.  

 

true. It give people a feeling that tywin was rewarded.

since Robert did not want to marry anybody except lyanna, 

i would say it maybe better to let Robert remain single and let stannis be the crown prince. 

That will be good for the realm. 

In fact, deep in Robert and jon, they know that tywin did some important dirty thing for them, so they are indeed rewarding him by sparing Jaime and marrying cersei. Tywin knew it. 

 

 

[BadWo1f]

Yeah Ned did call what happened to Elia and her children murder but than that dumbass that they decided to make king stood over their bodies dismissed their deaths and rewarded their murderer(Tywin)and let his henchmen off. 

 

Yeah Aerys started it but the rebels were ultimately worse in the war and for Westeros. 

Well...It is arguable is it better to quickly kill 2 children or to burn a man alive in his armor (so he burns like a pig) and make his son watch all of that while he strangles himself. There is also rape of Lyanna (that is the official history). 

They didn't start it, they ended it, it's a fact there would be more and more war if those kids lived.

[The Wolves]

Well...It is arguable is it better to quickly kill 2 children or to burn a man alive in his armor (so he burns like a pig) and make his son watch all of that while he strangles himself. There is also rape of Lyanna (that is the official history). 

They didn't start it, they ended it, it's a fact there would be more and more war if those kids lived.

The thing is that the rebels didn't start the war for the throne, so why did Aegon and Rhaenys have to die? 

They went to war because Aerys called for their heads and I understand that but why go for that ugly chair anyway? What gave the rebels the idea that Robert should have been King? Because he looked good in his yellow and black armor killing the much beloved Crown Prince? Why take the throne when that was never the intent anyways? 

Also I know it was Tywin that had the Targ babies killed but with Robert/Rebels announcement that they would crown Robert it was all the Targs(who were innocent kids)death sentences. 

 

And the rebels started a whole new type of problems for Westeros with that rdynasty change they set a whole new predicament that will cause many wars in the coming years. 

[purple-eyes]

in fact I think westeros is hopeless.

1. Aerys on the throne, a mad king. Needless to say much. 

2. Rhaegar on the throne, aegon and jon will have second bloody dance. Dorne and north will fight and they may become independent depending on who wins. (Lyanna is rhaegar's true love so he would likely prefer jon on the throne, he eventually will repeat what his father did to him and viserys: try to get rid of aegon) 

3. Robert on the Throne, we already saw. 

4. Little aegon as king and regent rule for him. Unstable country for 14 years. Same with 8 year old viserys.