Star Wars VII-These Aren't the Spoilers You Are Looking For

[ab aeterno]

Well, Anakin's killing of the Tuskan Raiders is there to kind of show us that he will turn eventually, and if he ever said it to the Jedi Council I'm pretty sure he'd be kicked out or at least  persecuted. That scene is there to show us that the darkness kind of always was there with Anakin, even before we get the whole turn in Episode 3. 

What we get with Kylo Ren is a villain that is pretending to be evil, because he wants to be evil but already is evil and that's just not interesting to me. If you kill an innocent old man you don't know or a family member, that's the same evil, but you have more emotional bonds to one of them. From a Jedi perspective I don't think they would put one in front of the other. That whole dilemma doesn't mesh with me and it's all just poorly explained in my opinion. His flaws doesn't make him a better character, it just makes the writing worse, especially in a universe, where as you say, there is big contrast between the dark side and the light side. 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps it's that I don't really believe in evil, or just that I don't think that Ren is evil (either at the beginning or at the end of the film,) but I can't say that I'm ever likely to agree with you on this.

[Kalbear]

From a jedi perspective attachment is the problem. Killing tusken Raiders isn't as big a deal as marrying padme is. Hating dooku is worse than the killing.

And the jedi let things slide all over. Qui-gon was simply not allowed to be on the council for his transgressions.

More importantly, it's made clear in the movie that you're wrong - that facing han is going to be a big deal. I get that you don't think it should be, but it is. It's been this way for the entire series - facing your parents is the hard thing. Heck, luke is told that he can kill Vader pretty much by Yoda but chooses to redeem him - which isn't the jedi way as Yoda knew it.

That's sort of another thing. Jedi and sith are opposites, but jedi and good aren't synonyms.

[ab aeterno]

That's sort of another thing. Jedi and sith are opposites, but jedi and good aren't synonyms.

They also can't make up their mind what they believe from one moment to the next.

[ab aeterno]

From a jedi perspective attachment is the problem. Killing tusken Raiders isn't as big a deal as marrying padme is. Hating dooku is worse than the killing.

 

I'd say that attachment is the issue with the raiders as well - he killed them because he was angry about his mother's death, he was angry about his mother's death because of his lingering attachment to her. The Jedi see attachment as the problem because it makes them likely to fear losing the things they are attached to, and fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, etc. Hence Yoda's whole "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose," comment.

[JonArryn]

Yes, his journey to the dark side isn't complete when he kills lor. The movie literally says as much.

 

I get that you didn't like the movie and that's a shame, and I'm sorry that it didn't work for you, but really you're glossing over pretty much the entire movie to make your points.

 

You didn't like rey beating ren - even though the movie is all about the force awakening and we see rey embrace the force while saying the words "the force".

 

You didn't buy that kylo ren was conflicted - despite the movie literally having you tell us that ren is conflicted and is feeling the allure of the light side, that snoke says facing han will be his greatest test, and then the actual scene.

 

Killing innocents ain't a problem for jedi. The problem is whether you give in to your hate. If you kill a bunch of people dispassionately you're fine jedi wise. And you aren't irredeemable almost ever - see Vader for an example. For kylo, this was his final step.

Well, I get what JJ and Kasdan were trying to say to us viewers but that doesn't mean that I have to buy everything they throw at us. Them saying that he isn't a full Sith until a certain point, when we see him making sith actions was what didn't work for me. I just think they could have incorporated that element in a different way.

Him killing some jedis in a jedi academy in cold blood(if he does that, which is pretty much what the movie hints at) doesn't make him dark side but him killing Han 10 years later is what makes that. That is what doesn't make sense to me. It felt like they really needed to push Han into that scene and they did it by that way.

I can give you that I'm nitpicking some things too much and as I said, I would give that I liked Han Solos parts, and I like Rey as a character and the actress was great, but it's the writing of Rey's progress I have issues with, not her person in the movie. She could have been a great protagonist for this trilogy and I wouldn't have mind if she was if they could have written it in a credible way. Yeah, I get that one of the points in this movie is that the force awakens (it's the title) but the Jedis only been gone for say 10 years, so it's even less of a time since episode iv, but in this movie they make a big deal of it. 

I wouldn't have mind if she did beat Ren in a lightsabre combat in the end of this movie, the only thing they would have done was show that she would have gotten some Jedi training by Luke for at least some time and I would have bought it. Maybe a comment by Luke on how adept she was at it, and it would have worked much better then it does now. 

[Kalbear]

Kylo ren isn't sith as far as we know.

Him killing Padawans makes him on a path to the dark side. Him killing his father in cold blood and choosing to do it instead of in combat, when han was reaching out to him to love him - that was a pretty horrible act for his personal growth. Ultimately the dark and light side aren't some cosmic scale; it's a choice. And it's an intensely personal one.

[JonArryn]

Kylo ren isn't sith as far as we know.

 

Him killing Padawans makes him on a path to the dark side. Him killing his father in cold blood and choosing to do it instead of in combat, when han was reaching out to him to love him - that was a pretty horrible act for his personal growth. Ultimately the dark and light side aren't some cosmic scale; it's a choice. And it's an intensely personal one.

 

 

I agree with you that it isn't a cosmic scale, but it isn't as clear cut as you say it is either. There are codes and if you don't follow those codes you aren't really accepted. Kind of the way Qui-Gonn wasn't accepted into The Council because he disagreed on some points, but Qui-Gonn definitely didn't kill innocent people. If he did I think he'd be out of there pretty fast, so it's not just a choice as you say. 

And I definitely think Ren is a sith since he was following orders from a sith master and had gotten advice from Emperor 2.0 before. 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps it's that I don't really believe in evil, or just that I don't think that Ren is evil (either at the beginning or at the end of the film,) but I can't say that I'm ever likely to agree with you on this.

Well, now you're twisting my words. You were the first one who brought up evil from a movie perspective so I was referring to that in the movie universe. And in the movie universe they definitely have views on good vs evil, it's as you said before one of the biggest themes of the whole movie series. If you want to talk about evil in real life it's a whole different debate. It would be interesting to hear your view on evil acts though if you don't believe that a person can be evil? But that's another discussion though so if you don't want you don't have to write that here. 

[Kalbear]

Snoke isn't a sith master as far as we know either. Again, you're not actually talking about the movie we saw.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

And I'm starting to agree with Vader as being a less realized villain. He was certainly more of a bad ass, but his face turn was idiotic and came out of no where. While I don't know why ren went dark, I fully believe that this isn't something to be glossed over. That isn't a plot hole. It's just backstory that hasn't been covered yet.

I think his face turn makes perfect sense on a number of levels. #1) That's how Sith progression works, just ask the Emperor. There are always two, one master and one apprentice. How long is Vader supposed to be an apprentice until he makes his move? #2) Who better to make your move with than your son? The timing is perfect. #3) Who's to say the Emperor isn't going to toss Vader aside for a younger model?

[Jace, Extat]

I think his face turn makes perfect sense on a number of levels. #1) That's how Sith progression works, just ask the Emperor. There are always two, one master and one apprentice. How long is Vader supposed to be an apprentice until he makes his move? #2) Who better to make your move with than your son? The timing is perfect. #3) Who's to say the Emperor isn't going to toss Vader aside for a younger model?

He is Cyberdine Systems Model 101! He can never be replaced.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

He is Cyberdine Systems Model 101! He can never be replaced.

Well then, I guess he's just tired of eating Palpatine's shit and decides it's time to take the reins.

[JonArryn]

Snoke isn't a sith master as far as we know either. Again, you're not actually talking about the movie we saw.

 

 

 

 

Well, just because they don't explicitly say it in the movie doesn't really make your point. There's a lot pointing to them being sith. Kylo Ren is trying to live up to the legacy of Vader, there is a master and apprentice, which points to the rule of two, there is a red lightsabre which he has made himself, the only color used by sith in the movies. Those are just a few examples. As far as we know isn't really something you can use either, because there's been a lot "as far as we know" that you use to try and rationalise the fight between Rey and Kylo Ren and her powers so if one side uses it the other should be able to use it too. I am definitely talking about the movie, I'm just not agreeing with you about it.

I think his face turn makes perfect sense on a number of levels. #1) That's how Sith progression works, just ask the Emperor. There are always two, one master and one apprentice. How long is Vader supposed to be an apprentice until he makes his move? #2) Who better to make your move with than your son? The timing is perfect. #3) Who's to say the Emperor isn't going to toss Vader aside for a younger model?

I think his face turn makes sense, and from a character point too, and not in the sith sense as you're writing. He turns because he still knows what is right. One of the things I think the prequels did good was to show how Palpatine completely corrupts Anakin over the prequel trilogy. So if you just look at that arc, Palpatine's and Vaders over the six movies, it's actually pretty damn good, in my opinion. Anakin in the third movie still don't think he is evil. As he says to Obi-Wan during their fight "in my opinion all the jedi are evil" which kind of shows how Palpatine twists his views. During the 20 something years in between Darth Vader goes from a broken man not knowing, to embracing that he's just out for more power so we see the Vader that we get in the original trilogy. But we still have that doubt in him that he knows that the sith way is wrong. So his face turn makes complete sense and actually even more so when you count in the prequels. Even though the prequels has a lot of flaws, too much comic relief, Jar Jar, too much cgi, a bad love story, there are also some good parts which were a lot better then the parts in this movie that were supposed to be good. 

Star Trek fans have been saying for quite some time that JJ destroyed the Star Trek legacy and lore and just remade the older Star Trek movies in a worse way and just made a copy, so as a Star Wars fan and seeing what he did with the new movie now I get what they actually meant by that.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I think his face turn makes sense, and from a character point too, and not in the sith sense as you're writing. He turns because he still knows what is right. 

 

Star Trek fans have been saying for quite some time that JJ destroyed the Star Trek legacy and lore and just remade the older Star Trek movies in a worse way and just made a copy, so as a Star Wars fan and seeing what he did with the new movie now I get what they actually meant by that.

Yeah, but I think it's the Sith stuff that puts him in a position to "do the right thing" ultimately. I believe that he would've preferred it if Luke had just acquiesced, but it didn't play out that way.

 

Eh, if that copy is better than the last 3 flicks (I'm assuming here, as I haven't seen it yet) then I will take it. 

[Kalbear]

Well, one big reason to think they're not sith is that they don't use a Darth name. And it ain't like ren doesn't change his name.

Note also that there may be more apprentices than kylo - the aforementioned Knights of ren. And it's clear snoke wants more yet in the form of rey.

Ren does have a red lightsaber, but it's pretty different.

Mostly it's odd that you're willing to take something not said at all in the movie but not take at face value the things that are said in the movie. We are given several reasons why rey beats ren and why it makes sense, both in this movie and others. We are given ample evidence in this movie via direct statements that ren is conflicted. That isn't enough for you. But a red lightsaber? Oh hells yeah they be sith.

[Kalbear]

Also, where in the ot is there any doubt in Vader thinking the sith way is wrong until the very last bit? There's not a sign. He is trying to get luke as his apprentice so he can rule the galaxy as father and son. He's mocking luke for betraying leia right until luke chops off his hand. There isn't the slightest bit of hesitation at all. Again, what movies were you watching?

It'd make sense if Vader was killing the emperor to take over. He wasn't. Again, he tells us why he does it - to save luke because luke was right. If Vader had instead offed the emperor first that'd be one thing. He didn't.

[A True Kaniggit]

Just saw the movie for the second time (my mom cried when Han Solo died, I kinda didn't give her any warning). 

Still didn't like the star killer. Wish they'd gone with a Sun Crusher variant. Same end result, but by something that isn't a giant laser firing eyeball.

Edit: Also, anyone think there is a chance that Luke didn't just go out to that island to hermit for a while? Like maybe he has a new batch of students he's been training in secret?

Edit 2: And I think it's strange that The First Order, which seems to be Empire 1.5, has a non-human overlord. 

[felice]

Well, one big reason to think they're not sith is that they don't use a Darth name.

The different kinds of force user are all EU stuff, though. Even the term Sith wasn't used on screen till the prequels, was it? As far as the movies are concerned, it's just Jedi and those who've fallen to the Dark Side. There's nothing in Force Awakens to suggest that Kylo is a fundamentally different sort of evil Jedi from Vader and the Emperor.

We are given several reasons why rey beats ren and why it makes sense, both in this movie and others.

Though I don't think it's been mentioned yet that Rey was also injured - she was thrown into a tree hard enough to knock her out, and she's lucky she didn't break her neck. And Kylo chooses to fight; he's actively chasing after Finn and Rey on his own instead of sending troops after them, so he can't think his injury is that much of an impairment. Everything else in the movie suggests he's very powerful in the Force himself, rather than a relative weakling.

[MerenthaClone]

Aw, thanks guys.

Any hint in ANH that Vader is anything but an imposing enforcer figure is projection, IMO, though I'd be happy to hear from those who disagree.

I'm phoneposting so I'll leave it brief, but JonArryn, you sound like someone who didn't get the movie you wanted and are criticising it based on how what we got differed from what was in your head, rather than engaging with the movie on its own merits.  Also, you seem hung up on what happened and its relation to canon instead of what the movie was about.  It's very "but a TIE fighter has 42 hp, there's no way a glancing shot from a standard x-wing laser could destroy it!" kind of feel.  I'll get to more later.

I have to ask, were you someone who was mad all the EU stuff isn't canon anymore?

[Muggle]

The impression I got was Kylo was toying with Rey after he dealt with Finn. Then Rey merely took him by surprise when Kylo let his guard down.

Im ok with Rey wielding an insane amount of force power because im convinced she is Lukes daughter. 

 

My first thought was Luke left Rey on Jakku because he saw and felt responsible for what Ben turned into and he thought it better she not be trained or influenced by the force because he sensed her raw power.

[ab aeterno]

The different kinds of force user are all EU stuff, though. Even the term Sith wasn't used on screen till the prequels, was it? As far as the movies are concerned, it's just Jedi and those who've fallen to the Dark Side. There's nothing in Force Awakens to suggest that Kylo is a fundamentally different sort of evil Jedi from Vader and the Emperor.

JJ Abrams did make a point of saying that Kylo Ren wasn't a Sith though.

 

"Why is his title not 'Darth'? The answer to the latter, it turns out, is actually very simple, as some fans had already surmised. "Kylo Ren is not a Sith," confirms JJ Abrams in the new issue of Empire. "He works under Supreme Leader Snoke, who is a powerful figure on the Dark Side of the Force.”