Did anybody else like Tywin Lannister?

[BadWo1f]

 

Both of these, this is how I feel about him. (Sorry to steal your comments Maxxine and Badwo1f. Think my brain has melted somewhat after the festivities.  )

Not a problem.

[dariopatke]

My favourite Lannister is Kevan, though. He knows his place which makes his far smarter then Gerion and the other one. Anyone can be pissed about something, but wise knows when he should be pissed and when he has rights to do so. He may not be as competent as Tywin, but steel I fing him quite intelligent and one thing that is very important is that he clearly cares about his family and has emotions which makes him human far more than Tywin and if you look overall I think he might be better lord and Regent than Tywin was. I was really looking forward to him as Regent and Tommen as King, in that case I would even root for IT, but you know, got eaten by spider and birds...

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Chevauchee was a normal medieval war tactic. The wolves harassed civilians too, both in the Riverlands and Westerlands. 

Tywin didn't "harass" civillians. He butchered them. He unleashed the most physically intimidating soldier in the realm, as well as one of the most outright sadistic character (Gregor Clegane), along with Amory Lorch to commit disgusting crimes against commoners. He also employed the Bloody Mummers, the worst mercenary company in their whole world and used them to terrorize the Riverlands even more. 

Later on Roose also employed them and we all know how monstrous Roose is, but Robb himself and most of the "wolves" used them. Yes, they pillaged and burned the Westerlands, but unless there is a proof in the books that they committed the same atrocities that Tywin did in the Riverlands, the cases are not comparable. Next book we will see the Westernlands so we will probably hear exactly what Robb did that. I doubt it will be the same. You can waste your enemies supplies and burn resources without having to resort to ax little children's heads and practice target shooting on civilians.

If Tywin is not so bad why the hell he treated Masha Heddle the way he did?

[Stuart Littlefinger]

He's a walking contradiction 

[Sullen]

 

Not even his children liked him. All who speak well about him is because he had terrorised their enemies and that was good for them, not because he was a good person.

I disagree, some people seem to have genuine affection for him.

Kevan and Genna admire him as an older brother, Jaime feels guilt after he feels he let him down by indirectly causing his death, Cersei constantly looks up to him and tries to emulate him, Pycelle considers him the greatest thing since sliced bread (with no personal benefit to himself), and it's said that he and Joanna were in love, he was said to be friends with Robert's father IIRC.

He was a colossal asshole, from start to finish, but he was not unloved.

[LordDireStark]

I don't think I can say I Like him or hate him. It's more like I can see where the things he does come from. We've really only seen Tywin from a war point of view except with what is said about him in the world book. It seems his views comes from what has happened to him or his family like anyone else. He'll do anything to make sure he keeps house Lannister powerful,since nearly seeing it brought down by his father. His feelings for Tyrion arise from the same disgust he had for his father and the whore he had. As far as Cersai and Jaime go,he pretty much did like any other high lord at the time. He groomed Jaime to be lord of Casterly Rock and Jaime basically always refused it. And Cersai was dealt with like any other daughter would've been treated. As for people hating him for how he acts during a war is misguided.Granted,some of the things were questionable.But Tywin knew better then anyone how to fight a war. War is  a gruesome business and you win by attrition.He knew what had to be done and how to do it. If you look at Tywin when he was hand to Aerys,he seemed to treat people fairly but also held them accountable for the good of the realm. But again circumstances changed him. The animosity that arose between him and Aerys and the treatment of his wife and her death.

[John Doe]

He's a walking contradiction 

Green Day reference?

Tywin didn't "harass" civillians. He butchered them. He unleashed the most physically intimidating soldier in the realm, as well as one of the most outright sadistic character (Gregor Clegane), along with Amory Lorch to commit disgusting crimes against commoners. He also employed the Bloody Mummers, the worst mercenary company in their whole world and used them to terrorize the Riverlands even more. 

Later on Roose also employed them and we all know how monstrous Roose is, but Robb himself and most of the "wolves" used them. Yes, they pillaged and burned the Westerlands, but unless there is a proof in the books that they committed the same atrocities that Tywin did in the Riverlands, the cases are not comparable. Next book we will see the Westernlands so we will probably hear exactly what Robb did that. I doubt it will be the same. You can waste your enemies supplies and burn resources without having to resort to ax little children's heads and practice target shooting on civilians.

If Tywin is not so bad why the hell he treated Masha Heddle the way he did?

We encounter several riverlanders hating the wolves just as much as the lions. We have women near Riverrun hanged for "sleeping with lions". And that was allied terrritory. If anything they would behave even worse in the Westerlands.

 

I disagree, some people seem to have genuine affection for him.

Kevan and Genna admire him as an older brother, Jaime feels guilt after he feels he let him down by indirectly causing his death, Cersei constantly looks up to him and tries to emulate him, Pycelle considers him the greatest thing since sliced bread (with no personal benefit to himself), and it's said that he and Joanna were in love, he was said to be friends with Robert's father IIRC.

He was a colossal asshole, from start to finish, but he was not unloved.

Agreed.

[SilentDystopia]

I love Tywin am I crazy for it? No not really. Tywin is a great character that knows how to get shit done. Does he do it in questionable ways? Of course! I hate some of the things he did! But I still love and respect him. I hated how he died sadly no one deserves to die on the shitter. 

Sometimes the world need Ruthless Assholes they get shit done; yes, by pissing people off, but they gain a lot in the progress. I mean look at his story! After the Lannisters were getting shit on by the lesser lords and people, Tywin changed that up and gained respect from his people. 

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

 

We encounter several riverlanders hating the wolves just as much as the lions. We have women near Riverrun hanged for "sleeping with lions". And that was allied terrritory. If anything they would behave even worse in the Westerlands.

I never claimed there weren't cruel soldiers in both sides. The difference is that Tywin willingly uses the worst psychopaths to terrorize the lands, knowing perfectly well what they are capable of. Tywim himself hanged Masha Heddle. It wasn't a random act of cruelty done by an unknown subordinate. It was Tywin murdering an innocent woman.

[Thuckey]

I wish he did not die so soon in the series. And End-game Tywin Lannister would be one of the great forces to deal with, as he pretty much won the war of the five kings and had House Lannister pretty stabilized during times of absolute chaos. Not an easy thing to do.

 

Love or hate him, he did demand a certain respect. 

[John Doe]

I never claimed there weren't cruel soldiers in both sides. The difference is that Tywin willingly uses the worst psychopaths to terrorize the lands, knowing perfectly well what they are capable of. Tywim himself hanged Masha Heddle. It wasn't a random act of cruelty done by an unknown subordinate. It was Tywin murdering an innocent woman.

So they were not ordered to do so, allied and still not much better? Only proves my point that such  brutality wasn't all that uncommon, both in the books and in real life (again, look up chevauchee). Besides we know Robb paid the Westerlands "back in kind".

Tywin might have seen Heddle as co-conspirator since Tyrion was taken captive at her inn.

[Fat Mac]

I don't like Tywin at all, really. When a character commits atrocities, they better have some better qualities that balance it out. Tywin didn't have any of those. He was a mean, spiteful person prone to tremendous overreaction. His fight to preserve the Lannister name will more likely curse it for the next generation.       

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

So they were not ordered to do so, allied and still not much better? Only proves my point that such  brutality wasn't all that uncommon, both in the books and in real life (again, look up chevauchee). Besides we know Robb paid the Westerlands "back in kind".

Tywin might have seen Heddle as co-conspirator since Tyrion was taken captive at her inn.

Cruelty exists in both sides. What I'm saying is that as far as the leaders of the campaigns go, Tywin is the one who takes brutality to a whole new level. The "pay back in kind" thing could probably mean burning and pillaging enemy territory in order to reduce the productivity of a region. The peasants will suffer a lot but you don't really need to burn, maim or rape them to get your job done. That most likely happened but as far as we know it wasn't Robb's way of conducting warfare: unleashing the worst scum of the world to commit atrocities, knowing exactly what kind of people they are, like Tywin did.

"Kinder than the Lannisters is drier than the sea". A quote from Arwyn Oakheart that shows that the Lannisters are renowned for their over the top brutality.

Robb knew Osha was part of a group that tried to kidnap or kill Bran and decided to spare her nonetheless. Tywin on the other hand chooses to hang a weak old woman because he thought she was a con-conspirator, without any proof. Facts like this helps to bring light to what types of men each of these characters are. Tywin is one of the most cruel lords in the Seven Kingdoms and he has showed it repeatedly. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 That most likely happened but as far as we know it wasn't Robb's way of conducting warfare: unleashing the worst scum of the world to commit atrocities, knowing exactly what kind of people they are, like Tywin did.

The Northmen were raping and pillaging in the Rivelands from their own allies, you can bet they were doing worse in the Westerlands.

Robb had no problem with the Brave Companions and other sellsword companies switching sides and joining him.

Medieval war was ugly, awful on  the smallfolk. Every side committed atrocities, every side would have rapists and men who were a little too brutal.

The gang rape is obviously reprehensible, but sadly I doubt Tysha was the only peasant raped that day. It is an elitist society, peasants have few rights especially homeless orphans like Tysha. It was a disgusting show of elitism that it happened but this was not a one off in that society.

GRRM: On the class structure.

And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. He would have put her in the stocks and then had garbage thrown at her. You know.

I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that.

 

 

 

[khal drogon]

I personally dislike the terms good or evil. They're just two dimensional terms that do a properly developed character a lot of injustice.

But those terms does not depend on the character alone but also your own moral compass. The terms often refers to the extremes. After all there are good and evil real people. 

[John Doe]

Agreed. 

Tywin is the one who takes brutality to a whole new level.

The "pay back in kind" thing could probably mean burning and pillaging enemy territory in order to reduce the productivity of a region.

Robb knew Osha was part of a group that tried to kidnap or kill Bran and decided to spare her nonetheless.

 Tywin is one of the most cruel lords in the Seven Kingdoms and he has showed it repeatedly. 

1. He doesn't, at least in the Riverlands, or else the smallfolk in that region would clearly say so. What they say instead points to the contrary.

2. "Paying back in kind" suggests paying or returning something of the same kind as received. If the Riverlands got ravaged, what does that say about the Westerlands?

3. It only shows the Lannisters aren't known for their kindness.

4. This was indeed merciful, but probably not the norm amongst the nobility. We saw crueler lords as well as kinder ones.

 

[7-KG]

Actually, i like him. He was a son of a bitch, undoubtedly, but he was a great man, nevertheless.

[desire]

I think Ser Keaven said it best. 

[Shi Qiang]

Tywin Lannister is often times viewed as one of the main "bad guys" early in the series but later on as just the asshole father of some of the main characters, with Starks being the protagonists in book 1, and the Lannisters eventually being seen in a somewhat better light and promotion from antaganists to protagonists themselves he is given much more depth and even still continues to be viewed mostly in a negative light. 

 

But when you really think about it, a lot of the things he does seems perfectlly reasonable given the motivations (the defending of his own house) so can you really blame him for being himself? He wasn't particularly outright EVIL like his infamous mad dog Gregor Clegane and the rest, although he was pretty devoid of empathy and other softer emotions. But that just makes him stronger. You can't blame a guy for being a successful leader and for wanting the safety and doing what was nessacary for his legacy to be of the highest regard. 

 

He did a lot of things that ultimately made House Lannister the most powerful, rich, and feared house in Westeros, despite being unliked by many. But the more you think about it, the more logical this seems and the goals themselves aren't stupid or pointless, these are some pretty amazing accomplishments. And Tywin himself, although cold at times, does say a lot of things that make sense in regards to the advancement of his house and legacy of family etc. I actually grew to respect and like him as a character.

 

His death when you think about it didn't really have that much sasitfaction or justification attached to it - It was an exciting plot turn and made for an epic Arch for one of the most popular characters (Tyrion) but it wasn't a great "justice" being done or good conquering evil. This is perhaps why this series is so amazing, that everything can be seen in a gray light.

 

Did anybody else actually like Tywin Lannister and understand his actions and role in the story? Discuss. 

Tywin went a little too far with the Reynes and the Tarbecks.  There was no need to kill the innocent.  But, I am in agreement with the way he handled that pesky Robb Stark and his idiot bannermen.  Letting Robb live meant prolonged war and more damage to the realm.  The red wedding was brutal, but it was good for the realm.  Bad for the Starks, but good for the realm.  What is good for the Starks is not necessarily what is good for the realm. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

  Bad for the Starks, but good for the realm.  What is good for the Starks is not necessarily what is good for the realm. 

What is good for the Starks is not necessarily what is good for the smallfolk of the North.