Wyman Manderly vs Walder Frey

[Sullen]

I like how people want to justify either of Manderly's or Walder's actions. The truth is you just can't. Both are pretty damn ruthless but I identify Manderly as a badass as it's literally his ass on the line whilst Walder sits in his castle and behind countless relatives. It's the opposite to Walder, here. Manderly is basically committing suicide for the Starks with his heir safe at home, whilst Walder has sent his sons into a realm where countless people have lost their sons and brothers to gloat and spread false rumors. To me, Walder's tactics are shrewd, but ultimately very crude and I have to say gratuitous. He just murdered a bunch of people when they let their guard down. I'm sure the North would of preferred to of lost 3 sons to the countless dead at the RW. So, on the face of it, it's like Manderly went for three men who were culpable. Walder attacked thousands people who had no fricking clue. Maybe Robb deserved to pay with his life. But did his mother deserve to watch him die? What about all the chaps outside? I think Manderly would have to eat a lot more people to even begin to seem as unscrupulous and heinous as Walder.

I'm a fan of the northern way. Whoever passes the judgment swings the sword. The only thing Walder has swung is his c%ck!

Walder's actions were far from gratuitous, if anything they could be interpreted as coldly pragmatic and necessary for him to be accepted back into the King's peace/have Robb's murder go well. Gratuitous is an adjective that applies far better to Manderly, having the Freys eat their relatives is nothing if gratuitous.

Your last complaint also applies to Manderly by the way, he certainly didn't swing the sword himself, and hides behind lies and false rumours just as much as Walder.

[Dolorous22]

Walder's actions were far from gratuitous, if anything they could be interpreted as coldly pragmatic and necessary for him to be accepted back into the King's peace/have Robb's murder go well. Gratuitous is an adjective that applies far better to Manderly, having the Freys eat their relatives is nothing if gratuitous.

Your last complaint also applies to Manderly by the way, he certainly didn't swing the sword himself, and hides behind lies and false rumours just as much as Walder.

"Walder's actions were far from gratuitous" I'd say that was a matter of opinion. I think he could of handled it differently. Just my opinion. I see some wiggle room. Somewhere between killing everybody and pardoning everybody is a measured response that probably had more longevity. 

"Your last complaint" it's really not a complaint. And yeah, absolutely, Manderly is in no shape to fight anyone himself. He can just manage to raise a spoon to his face. Prior to everything I'd probably see him as no more than a gluttonous Lord. I ask myself, what would most people do in his position. I think most people would roll over, accept it. I like characters who adopt a position of 'f%ck you' and swim against the odds. Walder... he took the easy way out but it's a position that's condemned his entire family.

There's a difference in attitude towards a foe too.
Neither can take the moral high-ground, here. But Manderly is just so much more interesting (for me) and actually directly involved. He's more than a mouth piece giving orders, he himself has a role to play and is playing a slightly more interesting game than - get 'em drunk 'n kill 'em. There's some mind games being played. 


 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

"Walder's actions were far from gratuitous" I'd say that was a matter of opinion. I think he could of handled it differently. Just my opinion. I see some wiggle room.

Is this not also true for Wyman? He did not have to murder them then bake them into a pie, eat them and offer their own family members the same pie.

Wyman and Walder are birds of a feather. They both took extreme actions for their revenge.

 

Somewhere between killing everybody and pardoning everybody is a measured response that probably had more longevity. 

Well sure. But he would never have gotten his revenge. Robb would have went North and Walder would be long dead before another chance arose.

 

I like characters who adopt a position of 'f%ck you' and swim against the odds.

Which Walder did when he sided with Robb against the Crown. At this point no one knew that the Baratheon brothers would rebel against Robert's son.

The safer option for Walder would be to do sit back and do nothing. He threw the dice and gambled against the odds and got fucked over by his partner.

 

Walder... he took the easy way out but it's a position that's condemned his entire family.

No, the easy way would have been to do nothing.

 

There's a difference in attitude towards a foe too.
Neither can take the moral high-ground, here. But Manderly is just so much more interesting (for me) and actually directly involved. He's more than a mouth piece giving orders, he himself has a role to play and is playing a slightly more interesting game than - get 'em drunk 'n kill 'em. 
 

His active role was eating them after they were dead. I'm not sure how active that is, he didnt personally kill them. At best he may have been present, like Walder was, when it was done but he was no more active.

[Dolorous22]

 

Is this not also true for Wyman? He did not have to murder them then bake them into a pie, eat them and offer their own family members the same pie. Didn't he? You saw the consequences of his actions and tauntings in WF. Worked like a charm, now, half his enemy are marching out into the snow where even more nasty surprises await. 

Wyman and Walder are birds of a feather. They both took extreme actions for their revenge.
Yes - but in different ways. One way makes a great story, the other a very sorry affair. 

Well sure. But he would never have gotten his revenge. Robb would have went North and Walder would be long dead before another chance arose. You assume I would spare Robb... We've wandered into this territory before, you and I. I'm not going to invent any alternates. This is a work of fiction, there are no absolutes. 

 

Which Walder did when he sided with Robb against the Crown. At this point no one knew that the Baratheon brothers would rebel against Robert's son. Yes! And I loved him for it. 

The safer option for Walder would be to do sit back and do nothing. He threw the dice and gambled against the odds and got fucked over by his partner. Thanks for your opinion, I do not agree.   

No, the easy way would have been to do nothing.
Thanks for your opinion, I do not agree.

His active role was eating them after they were dead. I'm not sure how active that is, he didnt personally kill them. At best he may have been present, like Walder was, when it was done but he was no more active.
It's as if you don't read my post entirely. You break it into little pieces where it loses it's context. Manderly is sat right in-front of his enemy at a massive disadvantage. Walder had every advantage over his opponents. Can you imagine how long it took to kill all those people outside of the twins? The type of massacre that was? This overshadows three chaps being eaten, for me.

Both are cruel. But one fascinates me and the other less so. Walder frey is pragmatic, true enough. But he bores me.  He's barely involved, he'll pop out as many kids as he can, marry kids off all over the place and all for the prosperity of a family that reads as a very depressing one. 

[Dolorous22]

"His active role was eating them after they were dead. I'm not sure how active that is"

More active than Walder. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Didn't he? You saw the consequences of his actions and tauntings in WF. Worked like a charm, now, half his enemy are marching out into the snow where even more nasty surprises await. 

How is that on Wyman? He didn't plan for that.

The Freys would have been made to go first no matter what.

Yes - but in different ways. One way makes a great story, the other a very sorry affair. 

 

Surely the Red Wedding is much more of a great story than Frey Pies.

 

You assume I would spare Robb... We've wandered into this territory before, you and I. I'm not going to invent any alternates. This is a work of fiction, there are no absolutes. 

I didn't assume no such thing. Robb travels with his army, killing him is incredibly hard without an ambush of some sort.

Walder got his revenge, he got to look into his eyes as Robb died. I'm not sure there are many other ways the 92 year old Walder could have gotten his vengeance.

 

Thanks for your opinion, I do not agree.   

Which part? That the safer option would be to do nothing or that he was fucked over by Robb?

It's as if you don't read my post entirely. You break it into little pieces where it loses it's context. Manderly is sat right in-front of his enemy at a massive disadvantage. Walder had every advantage over his opponents. Can you imagine how long it took to kill all those people outside of the twins? The type of massacre that was? This overshadows three chaps being eaten, for me.

 

Wyman had more advantages over the three Freys he had his men butchered and then baked into a pie.

I'd say they were similar crimes, one was just on a larger scale.

 

Both are cruel. But one fascinates me and the other less so. Walder frey is pragmatic, true enough. But he bores me.  He's barely involved, he'll pop out as many kids as he can, marry kids off all over the place and all for the prosperity of a family that reads as a very depressing one. 

Why depressing?

The reason I love the Freys is that Family tree and all its connections. It is a thing of beauty.  And it speaks to what we know of the man and the history of Westeros. He was alive during the Great Spring Sickness which decimated the people of Westeros. He got to see first hand how someone like Egg who was 15th in line became King because of the amount of death. It makes sense that he would have as many children as possible.

I see no problem with him having plenty of children, he at least takes care of his. Unlike Robert who, had he lived till Walder's age would have had just as many.

 

More active than Walder. 

How so?

 

 

[GHOSTSTARK]

ill take anyone over a Frey

[John Doe]

"His active role was eating them after they were dead. I'm not sure how active that is"

More active than Walder. 

Walder gave Robb a new head, what a badass. Definitely counts as active.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

I'm not arguing cannibalism is permissible, I'm simply stating that in the eyes of the gods, breaking guest right is a greater offense than cannibalism, which is still an offense. We may not agree with the morality of the books, but that does not change the fact that the moral of the Rat Cook is cannibalism is bad, but breaking guest right is worse. If you think that is me being lazy, then so be it.

I do not view characters as good or evil based on their opinions of the Starks. Walder was justified in leaving Robb's cause when Robb broke his marriage contract, as that was the keystone of their agreement, but planning and executing the wholesale slaughter of men who believed they had been granted safe passage (and who had nothing to do the Frey deal being broken)is not justifiable, either by our or Westorosi moral standards. As far as his parenting skills are concerned, in my opinion Walder ranks ahead of Randyll Tarly, but not by much. Yes, he provides for them, even those whose names he does not know, but that in and of itself does not make him a good parent, and he has said some truly awful things to and about his children, and those instances we have seen to bot appear to be isolated cases. Furthermore, he has damned quite a number of his children by their participation in the Red Wedding.

[Dolorous22]

Walder gave Robb a new head, what a badass. Definitely counts as active.

Did Walder do that did he? He didn't. No more than Wyman actually killed the Freys. I just can't believe you could read anything about Walder Frey and come away saying, wow, what a badass. But ok, fair enough, you like him, I can deal with that. 

 

How is that on Wyman? He didn't plan for that.

The Freys would have been made to go first no matter what.
You're right, but how soon? How long until the chaps outside WF died of exposure? Manderly made Roose's decision for him whether Roose knew it or not. 

Surely the Red Wedding is much more of a great story than Frey Pies. Not for me, sorry. I mean, kudos to George, I actually didn't see it coming. But I don't remember it fondly as a bit of brilliance. More, unfortunate. Plus, Frey pie is only the beginning. 

I didn't assume no such thing. Robb travels with his army, killing him is incredibly hard without an ambush of some sort.
You're saying you didn't assume I'd kill him then you talk about killing him. Once he was drunk and his army were drunk... There were a few options. 

But, this is more than an ambush. Which statement would you agree with,
a. The Starks were ambushed at the RW
b. The Starks were massacred at the RW
I think that if Walder had more of a mind he would of seen a greater opportunity, it was just further down the line. But he feared Tywin. 

Walder got his revenge, he got to look into his eyes as Robb died. I'm not sure there are many other ways the 92 year old Walder could have gotten his vengeance. I'll give you that. I bet it felt great. I didn't feel for WF though. I like the magic wolf people more.  

Which part? That the safer option would be to do nothing or that he was fucked over by Robb? Doing nothing. 'Fucked over' is quite a poor expression but I'm not going to Deny Rob created a huge problem for him. Over reaction was Tywins Tactic. Get my hands nice and bloody so my new friends will like me.    

Wyman had more advantages over the three Freys he had his men butchered and then baked into a pie.
His enemy is not merely three Frey's. His enemy is a lot bigger than that and spread out. And he isn't finished. That was just the beginning. An appetizer, if you will. But he didn't do it purely for his amusement. He's picking up on a lot of things that other Northeners would understand. It goes deeper than mere revenge. The Frey's don't understand it at all, they don't see the message within. If they did they wouldn't of risen to the bait. But, I suppose Walder can't help that. Maybe if he braved the Kings rd to be there himself he could lead by example. We'll never know. But we do know that there are all kinds of things going on at WF and the Frey's look bloody clueless.

I'd say they were similar crimes, one was just on a larger scale.
For me, "larger" is an understatement. Do you think the rest of the realm will actually believe Rob Stark turned into a wolf? They don't even believe in the very real 'ice bastards'. You are comparing three counts of murder, and three counts of cannibalism that now every lord at that table is guilty of with thousands dead. And these guys are all related to the natives of the land they're trying to subdue. What Walder Frey has done with the RW is alienate the rest of the realm against his family. They now have big crosshairs on their backs. Wyman may or may not go down as a cannibal, but you can't blame his children. They are completely disconnected from these events. He's maybe damned himself, but not the entire house hold. At WH he was the perfect host.  

Why depressing?
See below.

The reason I love the Freys is that Family tree and all its connections. It is a thing of beauty.  And it speaks to what we know of the man and the history of Westeros. He was alive during the Great Spring Sickness which decimated the people of Westeros. He got to see first hand how someone like Egg who was 15th in line became King because of the amount of death. It makes sense that he would have as many children as possible.
I can respect that. It's just that to me this is like insect behavior. Like a pest, they multiply, spread, infect and despite being so numerous there are so few individual Freys that endear themselves to me, the reader.
I prefer my tree's made of weirwood. For me, they (Freys) have become antagonists at this point. I don't want them all dead. Just out of the North, they do not belong. For better or worse, they picked the wrong side. Plus, they side with Ramsey. In my book, you lose a shedload of points when you chose to fight by his side. 
 

I see no problem with him having plenty of children, he at least takes care of his. Unlike Robert who, had he lived till Walder's age would have had just as many. I see Robert was mentioned in an earlier comment. Not by me though. I think he was terrible at most things apart from fighting. I don't believe Walder Frey see's his children as actual people though. They're his Pawns and too many heirs can be just as troublesome as not enough. Quantity over quality, I suspect. But I'm not going to say he was an awful father, just not a very loving or compassionate one. 

 

How so?

Walder is just sat there... Manderly got out of his chair. He may not have the strength in his legs to go there by himself but he did not chose to lock himself away for Winter. He's sat in his enemies layer, out numbered and dares to mock them in an almost unrivaled fashion. The result of which I believe is to fight out in the snow and to even the odds. I like it. I like it because I think a Kingdom overrun with Freys would be a sorry Kingdom indeed and he is risking his own life to change that. Plus, I don't think Frey or Bolton will help the realm defend itself from the 'others'. 

 

I respect that you respect Walder Frey. Just don't ask me to.  

[John Doe]

I just can't believe you could read anything about Walder Frey and come away saying, wow, what a badass.

I don't sincerely, but if baking people into pies counts as badass I don't see why this kind of corpse mutilation shouldn't.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I respect that you respect Walder Frey. Just don't ask me to.  

You know, I'm pretty sure I didnt. It is a discussion, no one is trying to force you to do anything you are unwilling to do.

You're right, but how soon? How long until the chaps outside WF died of exposure? Manderly made Roose's decision for him whether Roose knew it or not. 

No, Roose and Stannis made the decision. You are giving Manderly too much credit.

Not for me, sorry. I mean, kudos to George, I actually didn't see it coming. But I don't remember it fondly as a bit of brilliance. More, unfortunate. Plus, Frey pie is only the beginning. 

Well yeah, I was talking generally. I am not about to tell you what your own opinion. The Red Wedding is one the major parts of the series. Stroytelling wise it was huge.

Frey Pies was also good but there is no competition which had the bigger impact to the reader.

You're saying you didn't assume I'd kill him then you talk about killing him. Once he was drunk and his army were drunk... There were a few options.

Such as what?

 

 But, this is more than an ambush. Which statement would you agree with,
a. The Starks were ambushed at the RW
b. The Starks were massacred at the RW

You know the two phrases are not mutually exclusive, right? Something can be both an ambush and a massacre. Which this was.

Robb travelled with his army. They were not just going to let him die.  To get his vengence on Robb he needed to dispose of his army.

And there is also the fact that Roose needed the other Northern leaders and their military taken care of if he wanted a chance of ruling the North.

 

I think that if Walder had more of a mind he would of seen a greater opportunity, it was just further down the line. But he feared Tywin. 

What greater opportunity? Such as what?

I really don't think Tywin gave two shits about how it was done. If Roose and Walder said they would do it during battle he would have been fine about that.

It was Roose and Lame Lothar who organized it, Tywin did not force the Freys and Boltons to have the Red Wedding. It was entirely their call.

And if Walder feared Tywin so much then why did he agree to join Robb?

I'll give you that. I bet it felt great. I didn't feel for WF though. I like the magic wolf people more.  

I know. Everyone does. But that is the whole point, because the magical Wolf people are the protagonists of the books what they do is automatically thought of as good and the people against them are automatically evil.

No one cares about Walder's reasons, they trivialize them because his actions were against a Stark.

 

Doing nothing. 'Fucked over' is quite a poor expression but I'm not going to Deny Rob created a huge problem for him. Over reaction was Tywins Tactic. Get my hands nice and bloody so my new friends will like me. 

eh??

 His enemy is not merely three Frey's. His enemy is a lot bigger than that and spread out. And he isn't finished. That was just the beginning. An appetizer, if you will. But he didn't do it purely for his amusement. He's picking up on a lot of things that other Northeners would understand. It goes deeper than mere revenge. The Frey's don't understand it at all, they don't see the message within. If they did they wouldn't of risen to the bait. But, I suppose Walder can't help that. Maybe if he braved the Kings rd to be there himself he could lead by example. We'll never know. But we do know that there are all kinds of things going on at WF and the Frey's look bloody clueless.

Sorry. I can't comment on fan fiction.

 

For me, "larger" is an understatement. Do you think the rest of the realm will actually believe Rob Stark turned into a wolf?

NO, but then I never claimed they would.

Not sure you understood what I actually wrote. Both events were truly heinous, the difference being is that the Freys did it on a larger scale.

 

They don't even believe in the very real 'ice bastards'. You are comparing three counts of murder, and three counts of cannibalism that now every lord at that table is guilty of with thousands dead.

You may even say I called it larger.

 

And these guys are all related to the natives of the land they're trying to subdue. What Walder Frey has done with the RW is alienate the rest of the realm against his family.

Well yes and no. He still has a substantial amount of support from both the Crown, the Westerlands and the Riverlands.

Obviously there are other things in play in the series such as magic and invading Dragon riding Queens but then Walder could never have predicted that.

 

They now have big crosshairs on their backs. Wyman may or may not go down as a cannibal, but you can't blame his children. They are completely disconnected from these events. He's maybe damned himself, but not the entire house hold. At WH he was the perfect host. 

What?

 

 I can respect that. It's just that to me this is like insect behavior. Like a pest, they multiply, spread, infect

This is another reason why I find the Freys so interesting. You could replace Frey with Jew and you would see similar attitudes in the real medieval ages regarding their looks and breeding.

Walder Frey is guilty of being extremely healthy. He is one the oldest people in Westeros and he is still reproducing at his age. Not only that but he is incredibly fertile as are his children.

However let is add some context. Robert Baratheon died at the age of 36. In that time he had 19 children (though 3 were not his). At the same age Walder only had 6 legitimate children and possibly a few bastards. Had Robert lived as long as Walder he would have had a similar amount of children.

 

and despite being so numerous there are so few individual Freys that endear themselves to me, the reader.

They are not supposed to, they are not primary characters and get very little attention in the series.

 

I prefer my tree's made of weirwood.

eh??

 

I don't believe Walder Frey see's his children as actual people though.

Well that is clearly bullshit. Not that you are alone in this, it is a common trait in humanity. To dehumanize people we don't like. Strip away their humanity, suggest that everything they do is for some ulterior sinister motive.

 

 

Walder is just sat there... Manderly got out of his chair.

No, Walder too got out of his chair

 

[Dolorous22]

I appreciate your brevity LittleDragon but like last time you're chopping up entire paragraphs and only quoting single lines without the context and the discussion breaks down into tedious little skirmishes. We obviously don't see eye to eye on almost anything so perhaps we should quit it. I think what I think. I went to bed last night and I'll admit, you really made me think more on WFrey - which I like. But what you've written above doesn't feel worth responding to. It's a very bitter read. I wonder why you would bother replying at all if what you've written above is your true feelings. I sometimes get the impression that you bring other peoples arguments into mine. The Robert Baratheon comparison literally came from nowhere. Thanks again for sharing. 'Til next time.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 I sometimes get the impression that you bring other peoples arguments into mine. The Robert Baratheon comparison literally came from nowhere.

That was not an argument, it was a point of reference. You indicated that the Freys are like "insect behavior. Like a pest, they multiply, spread, infect" which is just not true.

It only looks like that because of how fertile, healthy and long lived ONE Frey is, and his appetite is not that uncommon. 16 children from Robert, he would have had a similar amount of children and grandchildren to Walder if he had lived as long.

 

10 legitimate children for Lord Cregan Stark, 7 legitimate children for his grandson Lord Beron Stark. During Cregan Stark's old age there was probably a similar amount of Starks to the amount of Freys we have seen at the present day.

 

Had Gerold Lannister lived as long as Walder there would have been a time (even with his two oldest sons dying without issue) that he too had a similar amount of children, great-grandchildren etc. as Walder.

The major difference is the health of Walder.

And no, the Freys are not like insects that are there to multiply. His children do not constantly multiply.

• Stevron: 4 children
• Emmon: 4 children
• Aenys: 2 children
• Perrianne: 3 children
• Jared: 2 children
• Luceion: 0 children
• Hosteen: 1 child
• Lythene: 2 children
• Symond: 3 children
• Danwell: 0 children
• Maerret: 4 children
• Geremy: 2 children
• Raymund 7 children
• etc.

Raymund aside, none are really going over board with the amount of children they are having. Had Walder died earlier it would not even be that bad as most would be nameless cousins to the Lord of the Crossing.

[Dolorous22]

I should of said Walder was a parasite. It is wrong to condemn his entire family. But there's no internet or printing press in Westeros (that I know of) so a families reputation is a very sensitive thing. The name Frey has become synonymous with the RW - how far will word spread of Manderly's cannibalism? Who will be left alive to tell the tale? It's not even confirmed news in Westeros. 

One can expect to live for a long time when you're not inclined to actually go out and take some risks. The twins is a hive where he has sired a total of 29 true born heirs and god knows how many bastards. This is callous, excessive, gratuitous and I do not understand how he could be a father to any of these children. Siring and fathering are different things. JS was fathered by Ned and as a consequence we can see how JS has been molded into the type of man his countrymen would ultimately approve of. Same with Robb - he too may of stayed at home siring child after child but he chose to spend his life differently. Or maybe he felt that there were more pressing matters. Or maybe he was a little bit more complex than a walking/sitting jizz machine. Either way, his short little life is far more meaningful that Walders - for me. I value things like sacrifice. If self-preservation is what you find most attractive then I absolutely understand why you like Walder. He's almost guaranteeing that there will be Freys in Westeros for all time...
Or is he? Once there's a dragon or an army of icy demons to fight numbers alone seem futile. Plus, his offspring are anything but safe. I doubt friends of Frey will be going on any suicide missions for their benefit.

What of these wives, then? Were they his lovers truly? How did all these women die? You're not even a little bit suspicious? 

 Perhaps Cregan was no better, I don't know. I haven't seen him but he's still shy at least 20 off Walders Score. Have you ever wondered how Walder had all this time to non-stop bonk women whilst other men were dedicating time to the realm. Walder had barely any responsibilities outside of his keep, and when he was summoned by his leige, he was either late or unwilling. Cregan served his King - albeit briefly - he did a service to the realm. What great service do we thank Walder for? 

I don't know anything about Gerold Lannister other than what you have just told me. 7 is a good number, especially in Westeros.  You're assuming he would insist on siring another 22 with the rest of his life? Plus more bastards. 

He (Walder) is playing the game of thrones with his cock and I cannot admire that. Not as a man. If he were a panda, I would feel differently.

He's devoted his life to breeding with the aim to marry a Frey in every direction. A parasite in Westeros. At best, some kind of Queen ant. 

Manderly is a gluttonous cannibal. We have Walder spending his time shagging and Manderly was stuffing his face. Neither are a conventional badass. But Manderly does regret eating all those eels. He didn't expect to be going back to war himself. But this is clearly a suicide mission for him aka: MOTHER TRUCKIN BADASS

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I should of said Walder was a parasite. It is wrong to condemn his entire family. But there's no internet or printing press in Westeros (that I know of) so a families reputation is a very sensitive thing. The name Frey has become synonymous with the RW - how far will word spread of Manderly's cannibalism? Who will be left alive to tell the tale? It's not even confirmed news in Westeros. 

So? What does this have to do with are discussion?

But if you want to bring fame into it, Walder taking down the King of the North and his 3.500 army is more impressive than Manderly attacking three Freys.

One will be more famous precision because it was larger, more badass.

One can expect to live for a long time when you're not inclined to actually go out and take some risks. The twins is a hive where he has sired a total of 29 true born heirs and god knows how many bastards.

A hive? lol More of this petty name calling shit.

 

This is callous, excessive, gratuitous and I do not understand how he could be a father to any of these children.

It would be callous, excessive and gratuitous if he did not care for them. We have evidence that he did.

 

Siring and fathering are different things.

Yes. And he did both. If you want to use this argument then back it up with evidence. Any evidence, not just that he did something bad to a Stark.

 

 

 

JS was fathered by Ned and as a consequence we can see how JS has been molded into the type of man his countrymen would ultimately approve of. Same with Robb - he too may of stayed at home siring child after child but he chose to spend his life differently. Or maybe he felt that there were more pressing matters.

Oh god, stop riding their cocks.

Or maybe he was a little bit more complex than a walking/sitting jizz machine. Either way, his short little life is far more meaningful that Walders - for me.

Of course he would be. Robb is one the main protagonists of the series.

Do you really not understand how literature works?

I value things like sacrifice. If self-preservation is what you find most attractive then I absolutely understand why you like Walder. He's almost guaranteeing that there will be Freys in Westeros for all time...

Yes, Robb managed to sacrifice thousands of Northern lives in his bid for revenge.

Or is he? Once there's a dragon or an army of icy demons to fight numbers alone seem futile. Plus, his offspring are anything but safe. I doubt friends of Frey will be going on any suicide missions for their benefit.

And? Has anyone argued that they would?

What of these wives, then? Were they his lovers truly? How did all these women die? You're not even a little bit suspicious? 

It is the medieval ages. Sadly female mortality was not uncommon.

Leyton Hightower had 4 wives, Jon Arryn 3. Do you suspect they also killed their dead wives?

 Perhaps Cregan was no better, I don't know. I haven't seen him but he's still shy at least 20 off Walders Score. Have you ever wondered how Walder had all this time to non-stop bonk women whilst other men were dedicating time to the realm. Walder had barely any responsibilities outside of his keep, and when he was summoned by his leige, he was either late or unwilling. Cregan served his King - albeit briefly - he did a service to the realm. What great service do we thank Walder for? 

Yet more straw manning? Where did you get the impression that I said Walder created a great service for the realm?

I don't know anything about Gerold Lannister other than what you have just told me. 7 is a good number, especially in Westeros.  You're assuming he would insist on siring another 22 with the rest of his life? Plus more bastards. 

No, try reading what I actually wrote. Gerold and Cregan, had they lived as long as Walder, would have a similar amount progency, not just children but children, grand children and great grand children.

 

He (Walder) is playing the game of thrones with his cock and I cannot admire that. Not as a man. If he were a panda, I would feel differently.

No idea what this means.

He's devoted his life to breeding with the aim to marry a Frey in every direction. A parasite in Westeros. At best, some kind of Queen ant. 

lol

Manderly is a gluttonous cannibal. We have Walder spending his time shagging and Manderly was stuffing his face. Neither are a conventional badass. But Manderly does regret eating all those eels. He didn't expect to be going back to war himself. But this is clearly a suicide mission for him aka: MOTHER TRUCKIN BADASS
 

Here is the thing, I am not even sure you know what badass means.

adjective, Also, badassed

1.

(of a person) difficult to deal with; mean-tempered; touchy.

2.

distinctively tough or powerful; so exceptional as to be intimidating.

noun

3.

a mean-tempered troublemaker.

Who fits the description more? Certainly seems to be Walder.

[Fire Eater]

 

Was he fighting a war for the last 20 years? She grew up a peasant and he was the Lord of the Stormlands/King of Westeros. He only had to acknowledge her (or any of his bastards) to drastically improve their lives as many of his subjects would be willing to take them in. Instead his bastards are no more than peasants, Mya a mule herder with likes of Carrot and Ossy.

And how do you know that Walder never went off to War? That is something we have no way of knowing. Dude is 90 years old.

He visited her a few times. That is hardly the same as taking care of her like Walder did.

Are you really arguing that Robert was a better father than Walder? They are not in the same ballpark.

Yeah, we do. He was indifferent to them.

"My brother liked the making of children well enough, but after birth they were a bother."

Well there you go, Walder was not.

 

Robert actually did consider bringing Mya to court according to Cersei, but she basically threatened harm to her if he did. Robert was negligent while Walder was bit more unkind towards his offspring. 

Well there you go, Walder was not.

We have. I provided a quote for you in my previous reply about how sweet one of his daughters was. Here is another about the two Walder's he sends to Winterfell.

"Are my grandsons unworthy to be seen at the king's court? They are sweet boys, quiet and mannerly. Walder is Merrett's son, named after me"

Becuase he is not a POV character. We have not seen the vast majority of fathers in the series do that.

Merret, his son, makes it clear that he takes care of them, all of them even the ones who have disapoiuinted him.

But were is the evidence of kindness? Why are you only judging Walder on this criteria and not everyone else. Provide evidence of Hoster, the Greatjon and Mallister complementing their children and being kind to them.

It is generally implied he isn't too good to his offspring. Merret never described him as kind, generous or thoughtful. He calls his own son "Merret Muttonhead," and not in an affectionate way. 

 "Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger? Your mother was milking goats the first time I gave her my seed." He dismissed the red-faced youth with a flick of his fingers 

He basically says to his bastard "Don't tell me courtesy Ryger, because your unfit to do so for being the bastard son of a milkmaid." Those are not the words of a loving, caring father. Westeros has its share of good fathers as we see with Ned. 

We saw scenes of Hoster with Cat in AGoT, and his children seem to think fondly of him. Mallister put his son before his honor, that action speaks for itself.

 

No, only the ridiculous things.

How is this fair?

You make a claim, I show it to be false and now you are saying it does not count? Biased much??

 

He has loyalty to his family. That is firmly established.

Maybe you cant. You are not really being objective here. Maybe you would not like family members who kissed your ass but you dont know the same is true for Walder.

Besides it is blatantly not true. They don't kiss his ass, they speak up when they disagree with him.

"Father," Ser Stevron said reproachfully, "you forget yourself. Lady Stark is here at your invitation."

"Did I ask you? You are not Lord Frey yet, not until I die. Do I look dead? I'll hear no instructions from you."

"This is no way to speak in front of our noble guest, Father," one of his younger sons said.

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained.

Clearly the Frey sons are less Kiss ass than their Stark equivalents. Please show me when Robb and Jon speak to their father in such a manner?

 

 "Ridiculous" is your personal opinion not an objective term. 

I said that while Walder does give what could be called a compliment, I don't think he exactly feels that way towards his offspring. You call different arguments "ridiculous" and I'm biased? I admit I have a bias towards men who orchestrate the RW and say awful things about their sons and granddaughters. 

 

 

 

No one outside the Twins. 

That's the pot calling the kettle black. You call "No, only the ridiculous things." objective? That is what I observe, It is mentioned that his progeny are always trying to seek his favor. That argument doesn't work given Jon and Robb are boys, and they seem to have a healthy relationship with Ned who has given them little reason for rebuke.  

Really? Provide it then?

We are discussing the motivations of fictional characters, of course it is going to come off as a little immature.

And? I am not sure your point. His daughter thinks her father hates her and he imprisoned her which she regarded as torture.

This is a far worse family dynamic than we have seen with the Freys. Infact Arriane is convinced that Doran was going to kill her and his nieces.

What are you holding back? Seven save me, but I am sick of secrets. Tell me the rest, Father . . . or else name Quentyn your heir and send for Hotah and his axe, and let me die beside my cousins."

But obviously Doran has never been mean to a Stark so he automatically must be a better father than Walder.

Exactly, she was cast out yet we are told that Walder cares for all of his children even the ones who disappoint him. Based on what we know Walder is the better father.

Really. Provide examples then. 

Seriously they'd equate being called fat to the same as being forced to have an abortion?

Seriously? This really beggars belief. One act is awful, the other is at most unkind.

 It is pretty clearly stated in the books, only a blind man could miss it. 

You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. 

That is emotional and verbal abuse. 

Doran said nothing about executing her and her cousins, that she came up with herself.

Another straw man argument. 

That is a really big stretch. Doran cared for all his children, and he seemed to be pretty lenient with his kids as demonstrated by saying nothing about Arianne losing her virginity to Daemon Sand.

Just because someone is a worse father doesn't make someone else a good father. Again that is ignorantiio elenchi.  

Examples for Doran:

The little princess smiled. "Three Oberyns, with teats."

Prince Doran laughed. It had been so long since Hotah last heard him laugh, he had almost forgotten what it sounded like.

Prince Doran shared his secret smile with her.

That shows warmth between them, and there is a loving relationship. 

"He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came.  "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms.  Elia’s son… I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?"  His voice broke when he said that.  "Where are the dragons?" he asked.  "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?"

That shows Doran genuinely loves and cares about his son.

Examples for Hoster:

Cat never seems to mention any bad memories or traits of him. The same can be said for Edmure who cried when his father died, suggesting Hoster was a loving father. 

No, they'd hate being called "sows." It isn't a choice between the two, both are awful. Again, worse doesn't automatically make bad better. 

No that is not the only evidence. As I already mentioned, he also calls his son "Merrett Muttonhead," and not as a term of affection. 

Is Ned a doctor? Did you expect him to cure Bran himself? There was nothing more he could for Bran, and he accepted the position as Hand thinking the realm was in danger. If he stayed at Winterfell, nothing would have changed for Bran's condition. Bran had a maester and guards so there was not much else to do. This argument doesn't hold up, no offense. It seems, IMO, like a desperate attempt to make something out of nothing. 

What Ned did was acceptable in this culture as people are trained since childhood about their roles in society, and carrying out executions is among the roles of a lord in the North. 

Jon chose to join the NW, and it was his idea. That is explicitly clear. Walda never chose to be called a "sow in silk." That is false equivalency. 

 The "grandson" he was referring to was the one he would have gotten from Robb through a Frey wife. Walder never mentions them at all. It is made very blatant in the books that it was about the broken betrothal. Even GRRM said another factor was wanting to be on the winning side, and never does he mention lost relatives as a reason. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robert actually did consider bringing Mya to court according to Cersei, but she basically threatened harm to her if he did.

Right considered. Did not do.

More importantly he only considered when she was quite old. Mya was born in 279/80 and Joffrey as born in 286.

Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court.

So after Robert had been hit Joffrey so hard that he lost some teeth he briefly had the idea to bring his daughter to court.

More importantly he gave up on it. Of the hundreds of Houses who would have gladly taken in the Kings son Robert did nothing, let her remain a peasant and become a mule herder.

Robert was negligent while Walder was bit more unkind towards his offspring. 

lol

Do you really think the worse father is the one who calls a granddaughter fat (behind her back) while looking after them or the father who barely knows they exist and takes ZERO responsibility for them one daughter becoming a mule herder and another a whore.

Ludicrous.

It is generally implied he isn't too good to his offspring.

Show some quotes then. Of actual actions.

 

Merret never described him as kind, generous or thoughtful. He calls his own son "Merret Muttonhead," and not in an affectionate way. 

lol

Is name calling the worst you can come up with. He called a fat granddaughter fat, and an idiot son and idiot.

Honestly, this period was not the SJW utopia you think it. Being insensitive to adults is hardly a crime, which is what they are. Adults.

"Ridiculous" is your personal opinion not an objective term. 

Yes, that is why I said it. I personally found it ridiculous. Which it is.

I said that while Walder does give what could be called a compliment,

Then you are changing the goal posts. At first you wrongly claimed that he made zero compliments. I easily disproved this and rather than admit you were wrong have decided they dont count.

Pathetic.

 

I don't think he exactly feels that way towards his offspring.

Based on what? Apart from your gut feeling.

You call different arguments "ridiculous" and I'm biased? I admit I have a bias towards men who orchestrate the RW and say awful things about their sons and granddaughters. 

So you admit it. You are biased.

This is precisely my point, the Red Wedding was awful but that does not mean Walder is some evil one dimensional character who has no feelings or motives other than to be nasty to the good guys.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the books like that. Relegating everything and everyone to good and evil and black and white. It is quite a common human mechanism.

No one outside the Twins. 

What? You made a claim and I, once again, used evidence from the books to disprove it.

You claimed his children only kissed his ass. They dont as my quotes prove.

Instead of having the good grace to admit you may have been mistaken you once again have moved the goal posts.

That's the pot calling the kettle black. You call "No, only the ridiculous things." objective? That is what I observe, It is mentioned that his progeny are always trying to seek his favor. That argument doesn't work given Jon and Robb are boys, and they seem to have a healthy relationship with Ned who has given them little reason for rebuke.

lol

They kiss his ass. We have never seen Robb or Jon speak up their father like Walder's children have done to him.

 It is pretty clearly stated in the books, only a blind man could miss it.

Then provide it.

Oh wait you cant because it is not there.

That is emotional and verbal abuse. 

Doran said nothing about executing her and her cousins, that she came up with herself.

Another straw man argument. 

Excellent. From now on I should discount everything you say about Walder unless you have a quote from the man himself saying it.

That is a really big stretch. Doran cared for all his children, and he seemed to be pretty lenient with his kids as demonstrated by saying nothing about Arianne losing her virginity to Daemon Sand.

And? His daughter was convinced that he was going to kill her and her cousins. None of Walder's children thought he would do that.

You go on and on about compliments and kindness and then somehow believe that a daughter thinking her father would kill her is the sign of a healthy relationship.

Just because someone is a worse father doesn't make someone else a good father. Again that is ignorantiio elenchi.  

Name all these better fathers and the evidence of their kindness. I easily found a number of worse fathers.

And I'm not really arguing that he is a great father, but you have claimed he is a bad father, it is up to you to name these better fathers and these examples of kindness which you criticize Walder for not having.

 

 

[Fire Eater]

Right considered. Did not do.

More importantly he only considered when she was quite old. Mya was born in 279/80 and Joffrey as born in 286.

Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court.

So after Robert had been hit Joffrey so hard that he lost some teeth he briefly had the idea to bring his daughter to court.

More importantly he gave up on it. Of the hundreds of Houses who would have gladly taken in the Kings son Robert did nothing, let her remain a peasant and become a mule herder.

lol

Do you really think the worse father is the one who calls a granddaughter fat (behind her back) while looking after them or the father who barely knows they exist and takes ZERO responsibility for them one daughter becoming a mule herder and another a whore.

Ludicrous.

A concern for his daughter's safety is considered to be a legitimate concern. Do you think he was in the wrong put his concern over his daughter's safety first? 

Jon Arryn looked after he by the looks of it given the job she got. She seems to like the job, and seem happy. Although, I agree Robert could have done more for his children.

Walder also refers to his son as an idiot, and is awful to his illegitimate son, Ryger, by debasing because of his birth. Robert never even knew Bella existed, so that doesn't count. 

 

Is name calling the worst you can come up with. He called a fat granddaughter fat, and an idiot son and idiot.

Honestly, this period was not the SJW utopia you think it. Being insensitive to adults is hardly a crime, which is what they are. Adults.

Yes, that is why I said it. I personally found it ridiculous. Which it is.

Then you are changing the goal posts. At first you wrongly claimed that he made zero compliments. I easily disproved this and rather than admit you were wrong have decided they dont count.

Pathetic.

 

So you would be okay with your father adding something along the lines of "idiot" to your name as a nickname, and not in an affectionate manner, but an insulting one? That is actually abusive.  

The SJW is a straw man you keep bringing up. Psychologists argue differently, and name-calling can be a form of verbal abuse. 

No, you just stated it matter-of-factly right after you just said you only state as your opinion. You just contradicted yourself. 

When have you ever admitted being wrong to be fair? I don't see you acknowledging the argument of Ned as a bad dad. Until then I would be careful using the word pathetic in that case. I thought I already did admit being wrong, I missed those quotes i admit, but the interactions Walder has with his kin that we have seen are seldom in a good light. 

Based on what? Apart from your gut feeling.

So you admit it. You are biased.

This is precisely my point, the Red Wedding was awful but that does not mean Walder is some evil one dimensional character who has no feelings or motives other than to be nasty to the good guys.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying the books like that. Relegating everything and everyone to good and evil and black and white. It is quite a common human mechanism.

What? You made a claim and I, once again, used evidence from the books to disprove it.

You claimed his children only kissed his ass. They dont as my quotes prove.

Instead of having the good grace to admit you may have been mistaken you once again have moved the goal posts.

lol

They kiss his ass. We have never seen Robb or Jon speak up their father like Walder's children have done to him.

No, based on the interactions we have seen with his family as well as his character. 

That makes two of us. 

I never argued him being one-dimensional, but that he is seldom kind to anyone, including his own family. He seems to have some insecurity issues judging by the fact the he spends time brooding over slights. It's not healthy to hold onto grudges. He does make sure to take care of his own, but the relationships in his house have deteriorated to the point that the Freys pretty much see each other as obstacles to becoming Lord of the Crossing.

He isn't loyal to anyone outside his house. That was a correction the way I saw it.  

As Walder says, "they're always naming them Walder so I'll favor them." Of course, they don't do it 100% of the time, but they are trying to earn his favor.  

Robb and Jon were boys, with Robb not really being given roles regarding his duties as lord, such as war, until after Ned leaves. Jon and Robb were boys still learning, and weren't given opportunities to have a say in governance and war until after Ned left. 

Then provide it.

Oh wait you cant because it is not there.

 

Did you completely miss the quote I provided? Also, I could do less with the immature snarkiness given I just provided a quote from Tywin to Tyrion:"You [Tyrion] ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. " 

I do provide quotes. 

And? His daughter was convinced that he was going to kill her and her cousins. None of Walder's children thought he would do that.

You go on and on about compliments and kindness and then somehow believe that a daughter thinking her father would kill her is the sign of a healthy relationship.

 

Name all these better fathers and the evidence of their kindness. I easily found a number of worse fathers.

And I'm not really arguing that he is a great father, but you have claimed he is a bad father, it is up to you to name these better fathers and these examples of kindness which you criticize Walder for not having.

Doran didn't make any threats regarding his kin. That was all in in Arianne's head. It stemmed form her ignorance of her father's plans, and Doran was being secretive given if the plan was found out she would have lost her head along with himself. 

I gave the example of Ned. Mace could be argued as a good father given, according to GRRM, he knew about Loras's sexual orientation, and didn't give him crap about it. According to Bracken, Blackwood dotes on his daughter. Oberyn seems to have taught his daughters how to defend themselves, which is unusual even by Dornish standards. Lord Tytos didn't forget any of his children according to Kevan in AFfC.  According to Elio, Daeron II loved and appreciated all his children. Viserys I was a loving father as shown spoiling his daughter.