Wyman Manderly vs Walder Frey

[Fire Eater]

Say what you want about Wyman but he din't break guest right as others pointed out. Unlike Walder who isn't loyal to anyone but himself and treats his progeny like shit, Wyman is genuinely loyal and is decent to his family. While what Wyman did was extreme regarding the pies, his motivations were more justified than Walder's. 

[Kaibaman]

I'd go with Wyman since by the looks of it he is about to get back at the Freys by hitting them in the flank as they march up to Stannis's camp. That would totally cripple the Freys.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Say what you want about Wyman but he din't break guest right as others pointed out. Unlike Walder who isn't loyal to anyone but himself and treats his progeny like shit, Wyman is genuinely loyal and is decent to his family. While what Wyman did was extreme regarding the pies, his motivations were more justified than Walder's. 

But that is not true at all.

Lord Walder would soon turn two-and-ninety. His ears had started to go, his eyes were almost gone, and his gout was so bad that he had to be carried everywhere. He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

The one thing he does care about is his family. There is no evidence that Wyman is any more decent or loyal to his family members than Walder is.

[Fire Eater]

 

But that is not true at all.

Lord Walder would soon turn two-and-ninety. His ears had started to go, his eyes were almost gone, and his gout was so bad that he had to be carried everywhere. He could not possibly last much longer, all his sons agreed. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

The one thing he does care about is his family. There is no evidence that Wyman is any more decent or loyal to his family members than Walder is.

Do you remember how he treated Merrett? He called Merret's daughter a "sow in silk" to his face, and was pretty much a jerk. When Cat threatened to kill Jinglebell, Walder was pretty much "go ahead." He may provide them food and shelter, but he haven't seen him show kindness to them. 

Wyman was obviously sad over Wendel's death as it is mentioned he blinked back tears, and I don't thhink we've ever heard of Walder being distraught over the deaths of his progeny. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Do you remember how he treated Merrett? He called Merret's daughter a "sow in silk" to his face, and was pretty much a jerk.

And yet he paid that huge dowry for her to marry a Lord. He is awfully blunt, but he cares for his children. Treating your progeny like shit would be doing what Robert did, with his legitimate and illegitimate children.

Walder provides them for all, pays for their education (we know from Lord Sunderland that becoming a Knight is not cheap) and pays for the dowries of the women so they get good matches.

He is responsible for them. He might not have many redeeming qualities but as Patriarchs go he seems quite a good one as Merret himself attests to.

 

When Cat threatened to kill Jinglebell, Walder was pretty much "go ahead." He may provide them food and shelter, but he haven't seen him show kindness to them. 

So?  Maybe he needs sensitivity training.

That does mean he has not been a good (medieval) father to them. And we have no idea how kind he is to them when they are young or when was was younger.

 

Wyman was obviously sad over Wendel's death as it is mentioned he blinked back tears, and I don't thhink we've ever heard of Walder being distraught over the deaths of his progeny. 

Clearly he was. That is one of the reasons why he is so incredibly angry with Robb Stark.

"the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

 

[Fire Eater]

And yet he paid that huge dowry for her to marry a Lord. He is awfully blunt, but he cares for his children. Treating your progeny like shit would be doing what Robert did, with his legitimate and illegitimate children.

Walder provides them for all, pays for their education (we know from Lord Sunderland that becoming a Knight is not cheap) and pays for the dowries of the women so they get good matches.

He is responsible for them. He might not have many redeeming qualities but as Patriarchs go he seems quite a good one as Merret himself attests to.

 

He didn't pay the dowry solely so she could marry Roose, he would pay it regardless of who Roose married. He paid it, because he told Roose he would give him the bride's weight in silver whomever he married. Robert did seem to be kind to Mya, and even thought of bringing her to court, he left her because he had a war to fight. I also doubt Robert would deny his legitimate daughter, of which he had none, a dowry. 

Physical needs are one thing, but emotional needs are entirely different matter. A man can provide for his son with food, clothes and shelter, but can still be considered a bad father if he is abusive. What kind of guy refers to his own granddaughter as a sow to his son's face? 

So?  Maybe he needs sensitivity training.

That does mean he has not been a good (medieval) father to them. And we have no idea how kind he is to them when they are young or when was was younger.

There is none such training in Westeros. Usually, the only direct interactions we see him have with his progeny are when he rebukes them with never a kind word to say.

Clearly he was. That is one of the reasons why he is so incredibly angry with Robb Stark.

"the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

 

He is angry with Robb over the broken betrothal not his over the death of one of his sons. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

He didn't pay the dowry solely so she could marry Roose, he would pay it regardless of who Roose married. He paid it, because he told Roose he would give him the bride's weight in silver whomever he married.

I am not sure your point. He is responsible for his children.

 

Robert did seem to be kind to Mya, and even thought of bringing her to court, he left her because he had a war to fight.

And? Mya is a mule herder, she grew up as a peasant while Walders took care of his bastards raising them at the Twins.

Are you really going to try and argue that Robert took better care of his bastards than Walder? Seriously!?!

 

I also doubt Robert would deny his legitimate daughter, of which he had none, a dowry. 

He did nothing for his bastards, Walder did, Walder easily trumps Robert as a father.

Physical needs are one thing, but emotional needs are entirely different matter.

This is the medieval age, not the SJW age. The responsibilities and duties of a father are entirely different.

And we barely get to see Walder, the idea that he has never shown kindness to his children is ridiculous, based on nothing more than Walder was bad to the Starks so everything he must do must be bad. I get why people want to simplify ASOIAF into an Autobots and Decepticon simplicity but the books maybe (maybe not, maybe they are so black and white) are a little more complex than that.

Merret makes it quite clear that Walder took care of his own.

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember.

 

A man can provide for his son with food, clothes and shelter, but can still be considered a bad father if he is abusive. What kind of guy refers to his own granddaughter as a sow to his son's face? 

Actions trumps words.

And you are being ridiculous if that is the best you can do. Doran imprisoned his daughter, Hoster forced his to have an abortion, Elys Arryn sent hers to the Silent Sisters for sleeping with a merchant. Calling His granddaughter fat is hardly that bad. Especially in this society.

 

He is angry with Robb over the broken betrothal not his over the death of one of his sons. 

 

No, he is also angry about the death of his heir, his Great grandson Tion and the many other Frey men who died for Robb's broken promise.

 

You do realize that the Starks are not the only House that values its own members, right?

[Tijgy]

He never really contributed crap. Just like the same BS he pulled on the trident, once the battle was over. The Freys have a long history of doing this. Actually in the TV show history and lore Cat Stark talks about their whole past which is pretty funny. (it is all stuff that was their past in the books)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs4KxxkxIRE

I am actually admiring the Frey's intelligence to built there a bridge. Smart family . 

Emotionally, I would always chose Wyman over Walder. While both might be ambitious people, Wyman still stands with his liege lord.

And he did not break the guest right however you cannot deny what he did was very dark. He killed some people, made them into pie and gave them to their family. This is real horror story and our possible admiration for this act should make us think of ourselves? Are we really admiring an act of forced cannibalism?

[Winter's Cold]

I am actually admiring the Frey's intelligence to built there a bridge. Smart family . 

Emotionally, I would always chose Wyman over Walder. While both might be ambitious people, Wyman still stands with his liege lord.

And he did not break the guest right however you cannot deny what he did was very dark. He killed some people, made them into pie and gave them to their family. This is real horror story and our possible admiration for this act should make us think of ourselves? Are we really admiring an act of forced cannibalism?

The Red Wedding is one of the most monstrous events in Westerosi history. Arya's training as a Faceless Man, Catelyn's transformation into Lady Stoneheart and Wyman Manderly's cannibalism are all products of the Red Wedding. These people are mad with grief and rage. It's not surprising what they're willing to do to get revenge.

[Gronzag]

Wyman only needs to sit on Walder and papa Frey is dead.

[Fire Eater]

I am not sure your point. He is responsible for his children.

And? Mya is a mule herder, she grew up as a peasant while Walders took care of his bastards raising them at the Twins.

Are you really going to try and argue that Robert took better care of his bastards than Walder? Seriously!?!

He did nothing for his bastards, Walder did, Walder easily trumps Robert as a father.

 

Walder didn't have to go off to war. Also, just because Robert didn't pay as much attention to his bastards as he should doesn't automatically make Walder a good father. That's like saying Randyll Tarly was a good father, because at least he didn't give Sam to the Others like Craster. 

This is the medieval age, not the SJW age. The responsibilities and duties of a father are entirely different.

And we barely get to see Walder, the idea that he has never shown kindness to his children is ridiculous, based on nothing more than Walder was bad to the Starks so everything he must do must be bad. I get why people want to simplify ASOIAF into an Autobots and Decepticon simplicity but the books maybe (maybe not, maybe they are so black and white) are a little more complex than that.

No, it doesn't take the SJW age to say being kind to your children should be a given, that is universal in all cultures. 

That is a straw man argument. Also, name to me one compliment he gives to one of his progeny. 

Merret makes it quite clear that Walder took care of his own.

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember.

Actions trumps words.

And you are being ridiculous if that is the best you can do. Doran imprisoned his daughter, Hoster forced his to have an abortion, Elys Arryn sent hers to the Silent Sisters for sleeping with a merchant. Calling His granddaughter fat is hardly that bad. Especially in this society.

Again, I;m not disputing Walder meeting his progeny's physical needs, it's the other needs that are lacking. Tywin provided Tyrion with his physical needs, even armor, yet no one here would say he was a good father to Tyrion. 

Ok, try showing some self-restraint and maturity when you type please instead of engaging in ad hominem. You're not doing yourself any favors when you're writing insulting comments. Arianne was trying to overthrow her father, abducted Myrcella and tried to start a war so Doran was pretty justified in imprisoning her. There is no Elys Arryn; the Waynwood you're referring to wasn't said to have joined the Silent Sisters for sleeping with merchant, which she didn't, it was with a sellsword. She joined after her child died, and it isn't mentioned that Elys forced her. Hoster's actions were arguably reprehensible. But, again, that argument is ignorantio elenchi. Just because people have done worse doesn't make someone else's wrongs okay. Calling his granddaguhter a pig to his son's face is still an awful thing to say.

No, he is also angry about the death of his heir, his Great grandson Tion and the many other Frey men who died for Robb's broken promise.

 

You do realize that the Starks are not the only House that values its own members, right?

Those dead Freys aren't mentioned at all by Walder at the RW for his reasons or by those commenting on the RW. 

 

[John Doe]

Taking on a king and 12.000 men is way more daring than taking on three expandable Freys. Plus Walder is Filch. Walder Frey wins.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Walder didn't have to go off to war.

No, he didnt. Where did I say that he did? Now this is a straw man argument.

 

Also, just because Robert didn't pay as much attention to his bastards as he should doesn't automatically make Walder a good father.

Then why were you trying to argue that Robert was the better father?

 

That's like saying Randyll Tarly was a good father, because at least he didn't give Sam to the Others like Craster. 

I am not sure your point? Do you concede that Walder was a better father than Robert.?

No, it doesn't take the SJW age to say being kind to your children should be a given, that is universal in all cultures. 

How on earth do you know that he was never kind to them? Seriously, that is such a bizarre argument considering how small a role he is given.

Provide examples of Hoster being kind to his children? Or Lord Mallister? Or the Greatjon?

That is a straw man argument. Also, name to me one compliment he gives to one of his progeny. 

Oh more of this SJW pandering?

Walder is not a POV character, not only that he only actually appears in three chapters in the whole series.

Anyway you asked for one compliment, here is one.

Years ago, I went to your father and suggested a match between his son and my daughter. Why not? I had a daughter in mind, sweet girl, only a few years older than Edmure

Again, I;m not disputing Walder meeting his progeny's physical needs, it's the other needs that are lacking.

But this is far-fetched. You are basing this on three chapters of an old man primarily dealing with enemies or potential enemies.

Not only does he take care of them. We hear this directly from one of his sons.

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

 

Tywin provided Tyrion with his physical needs, even armor, yet no one here would say he was a good father to Tyrion. 

No, but there is an obvious reason for that. The Tysha incident.

Ok, try showing some self-restraint and maturity when you type please instead of engaging in ad hominem. You're not doing yourself any favors when you're writing insulting comments.

You made a point I thought was ridiculous. I still think it was ridiculous, I apologize if commenting on the ridiculous comment made was insensitive to your feelings. I will take your wise words of guidance into consideration the next time I see a ridiculous comment made on the internet and will try to respond in a more thoughtful and compassionate way so as not to hurt the feelings of the originator of the ridiculous comment.

 

Arianne was trying to overthrow her father, abducted Myrcella and tried to start a war so Doran was pretty justified in imprisoning her.

And there you have it. Arrianne was convinced her own father hated her.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

Clearly a father who has not shown his children enough kindness. None of Walder's brood accuse him of that or try to overthrow him to gain power.

 

There is no Elys Arryn; the Waynwood you're referring to wasn't said to have joined the Silent Sisters for sleeping with merchant, which she didn't, it was with a sellsword.

Are you really arguing that Alys and Elys were better parents?

Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.

 

She joined after her child died, and it isn't mentioned that Elys forced her.

It is mentioned that she was cast out.

 

Hoster's actions were arguably reprehensible. But, again, that argument is ignorantio elenchi.

No, it really is not. Giving many examples of other parenting in this society shows that Walder is not a bad father by their standards.

 

Just because people have done worse doesn't make someone else's wrongs okay.

Wrong doing?

Oh man, back to the ridiculous comments.

Calling his granddaguhter a pig to his son's face is still an awful thing to say.

No, it is blunt and a little tactless. But it is not awful. Gangraping the girl your son says he loves is awful, forcing your daughter to have an abortion is awful, kicking your pregnant daughter out of the family home is awful. Knocking a childs baby teeth out is awful, or not taking any kind of responsibility for the many bastards you have produced around the land is awful.

Walder made fun of a granddaughter behind her back. I am sure even the best parents in our own age have occasionally been insensitive like that, does not then disqualify every positive thing they have provided for their children.

Even abandoning your sickly son to go to Kings Landing indefinitely is as awful as what you are judging Walder on.

Those dead Freys aren't mentioned at all by Walder at the RW for his reasons or by those commenting on the RW. 

Yes they are.

"the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

He is quite clearly pissed about it. He is clearly angry that Robb thinks an apology will make it all better. Walder is as angry about the death of his heir as Robb is with the death of his father.

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood.

 

[pogo]

Wyman obeyed all the forms. He provided guest right, abided by it, farewelled his guests and gave gifts. Once that is done all bets are off.

 

regarding the pies, remember that Wyman has the bones of his son that was killed at the red wedding back, he also has his son that was imprisoned in Harrenhal back, Do you remember what he got to eat,  Roast Goat.

 

Walder plotted with Tywin to break guest right, down to the finest detail of what music to play.

He even jokes and plays with the whole concept of "guest right" when he welcomes Rob and Catelyn back. He uses the old lords of the bridge (See book 1) game to cross his fingers when he assures them of their safety. I haven't got my text handy but he offers them bread and salt,  and "mayhaps a sausage"

 

Definitely the Freys are in deep doodoo  Karma wise from the Old Gods and the New

 

[Fire Eater]

No, he didnt. Where did I say that he did? Now this is a straw man argument.

Then why were you trying to argue that Robert was the better father?

I am not sure your point? Do you concede that Walder was a better father than Robert.?

How on earth do you know that he was never kind to them? Seriously, that is such a bizarre argument considering how small a role he is given.

Provide examples of Hoster being kind to his children? Or Lord Mallister? Or the Greatjon?

 

No, that isn't a strawman. If checked my last post, you'll see that I'm referring to the reason Robert left Mya is because he had to fight a war. Walder never went off to war, and so he ha the benefit of always being at the Twins. 

So a guy can't change his mind? Unfortunately, while Robert did dote on Mya his firstborn before he went off to war, we don't have much to go one regarding how he treated Cersei's children that he believed were his minus the time he hit Joff for cutting a cat open. Also, he didn't know of the existence of most of his illegitimate offspring. He acknowledged Edric, and had him raised at Storm's End, and did visit him a few times. I think he was a bit negligent as a parent. 

We have never seen Walder compliment any of his progeny. We also haven't seen him speak kindly of any of them in private. Cat states he regards his wives as bedwarmers and broodmares. I think that may be a clue as to how he regards his children. 

Lord Mallister, an honorable man who continued to fight after the RW, surrendered to spare his son's life. As for the Greatjon we never saw him interact with his children or speak about them. We see Hoster interact with Cat. His treatment of Lysa was likely his blemish in parenting. 

Oh more of this SJW pandering?

Walder is not a POV character, not only that he only actually appears in three chapters in the whole series.

Anyway you asked for one compliment, here is one.

Years ago, I went to your father and suggested a match between his son and my daughter. Why not? I had a daughter in mind, sweet girl, only a few years older than Edmure

But this is far-fetched. You are basing this on three chapters of an old man primarily dealing with enemies or potential enemies.

Not only does he take care of them. We hear this directly from one of his sons.

His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . .

No, but there is an obvious reason for that. The Tysha incident.

 

Must you label anything you disagree with as SJW or ridiculous?  

Ok that is one, but he is trying to show his disdain for the match refused basically selling how good she was as a match.

Walder Frey made enemies with the RW. He has few friends, because he has no loyalty to anyone but himself. 

Again, I'm not disagreeing about him providing for his kids' physical needs, but as the first sentence of that description suggests, he wasn't that good to them beyond that. Part of it is they are kissing his ass, and you can't respect someone who kisses your ass. 

Tywin's abuse is shown to be more than Tysha, and it started long before that. Tywin always blamed Tyrion for his wife's death and being born a dwarf.

You made a point I thought was ridiculous. I still think it was ridiculous, I apologize if commenting on the ridiculous comment made was insensitive to your feelings. I will take your wise words of guidance into consideration the next time I see a ridiculous comment made on the internet and will try to respond in a more thoughtful and compassionate way so as not to hurt the feelings of the originator of the ridiculous comment.

And there you have it. Arrianne was convinced her own father hated her.

Tell me, Father, when did you decide to disinherit me? Was it the day that Quentyn was born, or the day that I was born? What did I ever do to make you hate me so?" To her fury, there were tears in her eyes.

Clearly a father who has not shown his children enough kindness. None of Walder's brood accuse him of that or try to overthrow him to gain power.

Are you really arguing that Alys and Elys were better parents?

Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.

It is mentioned that she was cast out.

 

 

Ok, try to avoid being tongue-in-cheek, as that makes the apology not really an apology. I think now you are just being intentionally insulting. My feelings weren't hurt, it's just that I try to hold those I debate with to a high standard like I try to do myself. In other words, lay down your case and state your facts to explain why you disagree. Calling something "ridiculous" or any other of that kind seldom wins an argument. It usually comes off as immature. 

Arianne got the wrong impression from a stolen letter and the suitors. It was just over Doran not telling her about the betrothal to Viserys. He didn't know if he could trust her with the secret and chose to err on the side of caution. He didn't want to risk the plan being leaked given the incredibly high level of risk involved. 

She was cast out, and I'm not arguing Elys was a great father, but that he didn't make her join the silent sisters.

No, it really is not. Giving many examples of other parenting in this society shows that Walder is not a bad father by their standards.

Wrong doing?

Oh man, back to the ridiculous comments.

No, it is blunt and a little tactless. But it is not awful. Gangraping the girl your son says he loves is awful, forcing your daughter to have an abortion is awful, kicking your pregnant daughter out of the family home is awful. Knocking a childs baby teeth out is awful, or not taking any kind of responsibility for the many bastards you have produced around the land is awful.

Walder made fun of a granddaughter behind her back. I am sure even the best parents in our own age have occasionally been insensitive like that, does not then disqualify every positive thing they have provided for their children.

Even abandoning your sickly son to go to Kings Landing indefinitely is as awful as what you are judging Walder on.

Except Hoster and Doran are shown to have shown their kids at least some warmth while we have yet to see any from Walder. 

Whatever happened to to being more thoughtful? Again, show some maturity please. It demonstrates a lack of respect for your fellow debater, and respect is reciprocal. How do you expect your opponent to respect your arguments if you won't even respect theirs?

I think most granddaughters would disagree on that. Again, comparing one bad act to another doesn't make one act automatically good. 

Walder didn't make fun of her, he basically made an insult to her father's face. 

No, that is stretching it IMO. There was nothing more Ned could do for Bran, and he had already accepted the position as Hand. He thought the life of Robert, and the realm was in danger. Those were compelling reasons to go. 

Yes they are.

"the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh."

He is quite clearly pissed about it. He is clearly angry that Robb thinks an apology will make it all better. Walder is as angry about the death of his heir as Robb is with the death of his father.

When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood.

 

His deceased offspring are never even mentioned in that line. It was the broken betrothal he is pissed about. 

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No, that isn't a strawman. If checked my last post, you'll see that I'm referring to the reason Robert left Mya is because he had to fight a war. Walder never went off to war, and so he ha the benefit of always being at the Twins. 

Was he fighting a war for the last 20 years? She grew up a peasant and he was the Lord of the Stormlands/King of Westeros. He only had to acknowledge her (or any of his bastards) to drastically improve their lives as many of his subjects would be willing to take them in. Instead his bastards are no more than peasants, Mya a mule herder with likes of Carrot and Ossy.

And how do you know that Walder never went off to War? That is something we have no way of knowing. Dude is 90 years old.

So a guy can't change his mind? Unfortunately, while Robert did dote on Mya his firstborn before he went off to war,

He visited her a few times. That is hardly the same as taking care of her like Walder did.

Are you really arguing that Robert was a better father than Walder? They are not in the same ballpark.

 

we don't have much to go one regarding how he treated Cersei's children that he believed were his minus the time he hit Joff for cutting a cat open.

Yeah, we do. He was indifferent to them.

"My brother liked the making of children well enough, but after birth they were a bother."

 

Also, he didn't know of the existence of most of his illegitimate offspring. He acknowledged Edric, and had him raised at Storm's End, and did visit him a few times. I think he was a bit negligent as a parent. 

Well there you go, Walder was not.

We have never seen Walder compliment any of his progeny.

We have. I provided a quote for you in my previous reply about how sweet one of his daughters was. Here is another about the two Walder's he sends to Winterfell.

"Are my grandsons unworthy to be seen at the king's court? They are sweet boys, quiet and mannerly. Walder is Merrett's son, named after me"

 

We also haven't seen him speak kindly of any of them in private.

Becuase he is not a POV character. We have not seen the vast majority of fathers in the series do that.

 

Cat states he regards his wives as bedwarmers and broodmares. I think that may be a clue as to how he regards his children. 

Merret, his son, makes it clear that he takes care of them, all of them even the ones who have disapoiuinted him.

Lord Mallister, an honorable man who continued to fight after the RW, surrendered to spare his son's life. As for the Greatjon we never saw him interact with his children or speak about them. We see Hoster interact with Cat. His treatment of Lysa was likely his blemish in parenting. 

But were is the evidence of kindness? Why are you only judging Walder on this criteria and not everyone else. Provide evidence of Hoster, the Greatjon and Mallister complementing their children and being kind to them.

Must you label anything you disagree with as SJW or ridiculous?  

No, only the ridiculous things.

Ok that is one, but he is trying to show his disdain for the match refused basically selling how good she was as a match.

How is this fair?

You make a claim, I show it to be false and now you are saying it does not count? Biased much??

 

Walder Frey made enemies with the RW. He has few friends, because he has no loyalty to anyone but himself. 

He has loyalty to his family. That is firmly established.

Again, I'm not disagreeing about him providing for his kids' physical needs, but as the first sentence of that description suggests, he wasn't that good to them beyond that. Part of it is they are kissing his ass, and you can't respect someone who kisses your ass. 

Maybe you cant. You are not really being objective here. Maybe you would not like family members who kissed your ass but you dont know the same is true for Walder.

Besides it is blatantly not true. They don't kiss his ass, they speak up when they disagree with him.

"Father," Ser Stevron said reproachfully, "you forget yourself. Lady Stark is here at your invitation."

"Did I ask you? You are not Lord Frey yet, not until I die. Do I look dead? I'll hear no instructions from you."

"This is no way to speak in front of our noble guest, Father," one of his younger sons said.

"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained.

Clearly the Frey sons are less Kiss ass than their Stark equivalents. Please show me when Robb and Jon speak to their father in such a manner?

 

Tywin's abuse is shown to be more than Tysha, and it started long before that. Tywin always blamed Tyrion for his wife's death and being born a dwarf.

Really? Provide it then?

Ok, try to avoid being tongue-in-cheek, as that makes the apology not really an apology. I think now you are just being intentionally insulting. My feelings weren't hurt, it's just that I try to hold those I debate with to a high standard like I try to do myself. In other words, lay down your case and state your facts to explain why you disagree. Calling something "ridiculous" or any other of that kind seldom wins an argument. It usually comes off as immature. 

We are discussing the motivations of fictional characters, of course it is going to come off as a little immature.

Arianne got the wrong impression from a stolen letter and the suitors. It was just over Doran not telling her about the betrothal to Viserys. He didn't know if he could trust her with the secret and chose to err on the side of caution. He didn't want to risk the plan being leaked given the incredibly high level of risk involved. 

And? I am not sure your point. His daughter thinks her father hates her and he imprisoned her which she regarded as torture.

This is a far worse family dynamic than we have seen with the Freys. Infact Arriane is convinced that Doran was going to kill her and his nieces.

What are you holding back? Seven save me, but I am sick of secrets. Tell me the rest, Father . . . or else name Quentyn your heir and send for Hotah and his axe, and let me die beside my cousins."

But obviously Doran has never been mean to a Stark so he automatically must be a better father than Walder.

She was cast out, and I'm not arguing Elys was a great father, but that he didn't make her join the silent sisters.

Exactly, she was cast out yet we are told that Walder cares for all of his children even the ones who disappoint him. Based on what we know Walder is the better father.

Except Hoster and Doran are shown to have shown their kids at least some warmth while we have yet to see any from Walder. 

Really. Provide examples then.

 

I think most granddaughters would disagree on that. Again, comparing one bad act to another doesn't make one act automatically good. 

Seriously they'd equate being called fat to the same as being forced to have an abortion?

Seriously? This really beggars belief. One act is awful, the other is at most unkind.

Walder didn't make fun of her, he basically made an insult to her father's face. 

Yeah, he was insensitive.

But the fact that this is your best evidence is hilarious. Westeros if full of awful acts by fathers and the best you can come up with for Walder is that he called his granddaughter fat. I am sorry but this is ridiculous.

No, that is stretching it IMO. There was nothing more Ned could do for Bran, and he had already accepted the position as Hand. He thought the life of Robert, and the realm was in danger. Those were compelling reasons to go. 

Right, he put Robert before his very, very sick son. Good friend, but that one incident was bad fathering. More awful than calling someone fat.

In fact I'd say bring an 8 year old boy to watch you chop off a mans head was worse than calling a granddaughter fat.

I'd also say that allowing Jon to thrown his life away and joining the Watch just because he is too embarrassed to take him to court and wont stick up for him to Cat is also worse than calling a granddaughter fat.

And this is from Ned, one of the better fathers in the series.

His deceased offspring are never even mentioned in that line. It was the broken betrothal he is pissed about. 

 

The previous quote  I used was a direct response to his dead offspring. He makes two references about apologies over dead Freys.

What would Your Grace do if Petyr had broken his neck, heh? Give me another apology in place of a grandson? No, no, no. Might be you're king, I won't say you're not, the King in the North, heh, but under my roof, my rule.

 

Do you really think none of his anger with Robb stems from the deaths of Stevron and Tion? Or are Starks the only ones who get to be upset over dead family members?

[Winter's Cold]

Walder Frey butchered three thousand men, eleven lords and captured four lords. Wyman Manderly killed two men. These actions are not comparable. I doubt Walder cares much about his family members. Far more Freys have died as a result of the Red Wedding than have died due to his alliance with Robb. 

[Sullen]

I am actually admiring the Frey's intelligence to built there a bridge. Smart family . 

Emotionally, I would always chose Wyman over Walder. While both might be ambitious people, Wyman still stands with his liege lord.

And he did not break the guest right however you cannot deny what he did was very dark. He killed some people, made them into pie and gave them to their family. This is real horror story and our possible admiration for this act should make us think of ourselves? Are we really admiring an act of forced cannibalism?

I, for one, am not.

In fact, I consider Wyman's actions one of the worst in the series so far, worse than the Red Wedding as far as I am concerned. As horrible as the wedding was, you could at least argue it was done for a pragmatic reason, there is no such justification for feeding the men you just murdered to their family. It's perverse maliciousness, nothing more.

Revenge is always a nasty business, Walder pushed it too far, but then Wyman pushed it even further.

[Sullen]

Walder Frey butchered three thousand men, eleven lords and captured four lords. Wyman Manderly killed two men. These actions are not comparable. I doubt Walder cares much about his family members. Far more Freys have died as a result of the Red Wedding than have died due to his alliance with Robb. 

Walder's acts can be justified as an act of war, a very treacherous, dishonourable, and disgusting one, but one in the name of ending a war nonetheless.

What Wyman did was murder, pure and simple, and cannibalism has no justification whatsoever.

[Winter's Cold]

Walder's acts can be justified as an act of war, a very treacherous, dishonourable, and disgusting one, but one in the name of ending a war nonetheless.

What Wyman did was murder, pure and simple, and cannibalism has no justification whatsoever.

How about Walder's mutilation of Robb's body. Is that justifiable? Is that an act of war?