A+J=T v.8

[purple-eyes]

20 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Megette was married to her husband. The "marriage" to Aegon was no true marriage at all, as it was performed by a mummer, not a septon.

Who knows if it is the intentional lie of viserys? It is the easiest way to get rid of this marriage after all. 

By the logic of many people here, two people spoke the words and had sex then it is a done deal. If one of them is a targ prince, then it does not matter if one of them was married already. 

[Lord Varys]

The idea that Joanna and Aerys may have secretly married prior to Joanna and Tywin marrying doesn't make much sense.

But it is rather heavily implied that Tywin knew about the affair, and since Aerys actually presided over Tywin and Joanna's wedding we can also say with some certainty that Aerys didn't oppose this marriage. It clearly occurred with his blessing, and one assume that the king had the intention to continue his affair with Joanna in a sort of ménage à trois, with Tywin being very aware that his king was fucking his wife.

In fact, one assumes that Aerys had affairs with quite a lot of married women during his lusty days considering that there wouldn't have been only maidens at court.

This then apparently didn't work out for one reason or another, either because Tywin wasn't willing to go through with it or because Queen Rhaella intervened and ended the whole thing by banishing Joanna from court.

In this whole thing one has to keep in mind that this whole 'Joanna ruled Tywin' thing has yet to pay off. George introduced rather early this concept that Joanna Lannister was in charge at home but we have yet to see any effects of that situation. How and in what capacity did she rule him? Buying her trinkets and clothes most likely wasn't part of that at all. Allowing her to entertain an affair with his king and best friend would have been a very interesting aspect of that.

As to Megette and Aegon:

We only have a historians word that the septon marrying them was a mummer. Considering that the whole wedding was secret, and, presumably, only Aegon's close friends were present, and the whole thing only reached Viserys' ears years later, it would be rather difficult to prove that it was really a mummer and no septon.

But in any case, if Lord Tywin can make the marriage of his dwarf son disappear, a Targaryen prince clearly had the power to make a real marriage to a commoner disappear, if such a marriage existed. I'd not consider this beyond Aegon. The man really was in love with his mistresses. He had four daughters with Megette, and by that time he may have thought he could get away with having multiple wives (that clearly was no longer the case when he took the throne).

[purple-eyes]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Joanna and Aerys may have secretly married prior to Joanna and Tywin marrying doesn't make much sense.

But it is rather heavily implied that Tywin knew about the affair, and since Aerys actually presided over Tywin and Joanna's wedding we can also say with some certainty that Aerys didn't oppose this marriage. It clearly occurred with his blessing, and one assume that the king had the intention to continue his affair with Joanna in a sort of ménage à trois, with Tywin being very aware that his king was fucking his wife.

In fact, one assumes that Aerys had affairs with quite a lot of married women during his lusty days considering that there wouldn't have been only maidens at court.

This then apparently didn't work out for one reason or another, either because Tywin wasn't willing to go through with it or because Queen Rhaella intervened and ended the whole thing by banishing Joanna from court.

In this whole thing one has to keep in mind that this whole 'Joanna ruled Tywin' thing has yet to pay off. George introduced rather early this concept that Joanna Lannister was in charge at home but we have yet to see any effects of that situation. How and in what capacity did she rule him? Buying her trinkets and clothes most likely wasn't part of that at all. Allowing her to entertain an affair with his king and best friend would have been a very interesting aspect of that.

As to Megette and Aegon:

We only have a historians word that the septon marrying them was a mummer. Considering that the whole wedding was secret, and, presumably, only Aegon's close friends were present, and the whole thing only reached Viserys' ears years later, it would be rather difficult to prove that it was really a mummer and no septon.

But in any case, if Lord Tywin can make the marriage of his dwarf son disappear, a Targaryen prince clearly had the power to make a real marriage to a commoner disappear, if such a marriage existed. I'd not consider this beyond Aegon. The man really was in love with his mistresses. He had four daughters with Megette, and by that time he may have thought he could get away with having multiple wives (that clearly was no longer the case when he took the throne).

It is funny that when aegon was a son of a prince, he dared to marry a commoner woman secretly. But when he became king, he did not marry any of them. 

If he loved meg so much that he married her, then missy was said to be the most beloved one. Why not marry melissa as second wife? How about declaring he secretly married Daena so that daemon would be automatically a true born son? 

Aegon had so many reasons to set aside his wife or do polygamy, but he did not. Why? 

[purple-eyes]

There is also a chance that Tywin got his hand position due to aerys's relationship with Joanna. 

He endured their relationship for benefits until queen kicked Joanna out of KL. 

This can explain why his relationship with aerys was over after Joanna died. 

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

It is funny that when aegon was a son of a prince, he dared to marry a commoner woman secretly. But when he became king, he did not marry any of them. 

If he loved meg so much that he married her, then missy was said to be the most beloved one. Why not marry melissa as second wife? How about declaring he secretly married Daena so that daemon would be automatically a true born son? 

Aegon had so many reasons to set aside his wife or do polygamy, but he did not. Why? 

Missy is only said to be the most popular mistress. That doesn't mean she was the one Aegon loved the most. Daena clearly wasn't seduced because Aegon loved her. He wanted to fuck her, not marry her. And he may not even have been sincere about desiring her so much - getting her with child helped his father and subsequently Aegon himself to get the throne, after all. Not to mention that Aegon didn't give a rat's ass about this Daemon chap until he reached the age of twelve (and he was really pissed about his other son, that Daeron chap).

As to why Aegon refused to set aside Naerys: That seems to have had something to do with both his cruelty towards his sister-wife as well as his self-conception as a Targaryen. Targaryens married their sisters, and Aegon supposedly said to Naerys that they lived together as siblings the proper way they should live.

Lord Bracken made an attempt to install Barbra as the new queen when it looked as if Naerys would die. That eventually led to the banishment of the Brackens from court, suggesting that Aegon simply lacked the power to go through with a thing like a second polygamous marriage even if he wanted to do that. He dared not provoking his own son and the Dragonknight in such a fashion. We know Naerys predeceased Aegon, but we have no idea how quickly he followed her into the grave. I don't think their dates of death are far apart, explaining why Aegon didn't take a second wife after her death. Jeyne Lothston most likely never was considered as a potential wife, and Serenei of Lys is a strange case anyway. But we also don't know exactly when she died and whether she died before or after Naerys' death.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 20-2-2016 at 1:17 AM, Lord Varys said:

This then apparently didn't work out for one reason or another, either because Tywin wasn't willing to go through with it or because Queen Rhaella intervened and ended the whole thing by banishing Joanna from court.

If Aerys still had a relationship with Joanna after her marriage, Rhaella wouldn't have the authority to sent her away. Aerys's authority is always higher than Rhaella's, and if Aerys were to say that Joanna would remain in KL, than Rhaella could do little about that.

Otherwise, Rhaella could have sent women away from court the second Aerys began to show interest in them, before he could "turn my ladies into his whores", but apparently, she didn't.

Nor do I think that it is likely that Tywin knew about such a relationship and knowingly allowed it to happen for a while. That seems to be quite contrasting with the Tywin Lannister as we see in the main series, and read about in the Westerlands-history.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

If Aerys still had a relationship with Joanna after her marriage, Rhaella wouldn't have the authority to sent her away. Aerys's authority is always higher than Rhaella's, and if Aerys were to say that Joanna would remain in KL, than Rhaella could do little about that.

Otherwise, Rhaella could have sent women away from court the second Aerys began to show interest in them, before he could "turn my ladies into his whores", but apparently, she didn't.

Nor do I think that it is likely that Tywin knew about such a relationship and knowingly allowed it to happen for a while. That seems to be quite contrasting with the Tywin Lannister as we see in the main series, and read about in the Westerlands-history.

That is not entirely true. Queen Rhaella didn't directly banish Joanna from court she merely dismissed her as her lady-in-waiting. Aerys may have been the higher authority but he was, apparently, not hiring and firing his sister-wife's servants. That was her thing to do. We don't know much about the subtleties of the Targaryen court but it easily imaginable that it was inconceivable that a woman who had been dismissed by the queen continued to remain at court in an exalted position. I could see Aerys keeping some unmarried woman as his mistress even after Rhaella had dismissed her, but the core thing about the Aerys-Joanna-Tywin triangle would have been secrecy. Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna could have survived the scandal had the court and Realm actually learned that Tywin Lannister was allowing the king to fuck his beloved wife. That would have destroyed them utterly and completely. And even Aerys would have understood that, apparently. In that sense, Rhaella dismissing Joanna could have started a chain of events that soon after let to Joanna's permanent return to Casterly Rock - something that would even more sense if Tywin then jumped on the opening Rhaella gave him and convinced Joanna that her affair with Aerys had to stop, for the good of the family, the house, and the Realm.

This could also explain why Joanna only got pregnant with Jaima and Cersei so late. If Joanna actually loved Aerys or allowed Tywin only sex of the sort Robert got from Cersei in their later years (non-vaginal intercourse) then this could explain why Joanna had the twins only three years after her marriage. If Joanna had no fertility issues it is odd that Tywin, who supposedly was very in love with his wife and often separated from her, didn't rather fervently try to impregnate her when they were together.

As to Tywin's personality: We know now that the man consciously married a woman that effectively was 'a whore'. Joanna Lannister gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys and later had an affair with him. There is no way that Tywin didn't know any of that. Even if those were all rumors (which is very unlikely) then Joanna was still a whore by reputation. And what would have made matters worse is the fact that she hadn't had an affair with 'some guy' but with Tywin's best from friend and boss.

The very fact that Tywin Lannister married a woman with such a reputation is all proof we need to conclude that the real man (of that era) had virtually nothing to do with the public image of the man we later meet in the series. Tywin himself sucked up to the Targaryens in fan boy fashion (he even paid the Crown's debt with his own coin, an idea he considers to be ridiculous when the king is his own grandson) and it is not easy to say to what lengths he was willing to go to remain in Aerys' favor. I see no big difference between a man taking Joanna to wife (who was basically 'Aerys' leavings') and Joanna and Aerys continuing their affair either behind Tywin's back or with his knowledge. If Tywin was truly ruled by Joanna - and that's what's said - then she could have done that.

And if compare the mistress situation to the reign of Unworthy we are under the impression that neither of them had any formal ties to Queen Naerys in the same sense Joanna had to Queen Rhaella (Missy Blackwood apparently only became friends with Naerys after she came to court as Aegon's mistress) but we also know that Naerys and her allies had enough power to actually force the king to send away one his mistresses (Barbra Bracken and her father). That, I think, is enough evidence that a queen and her allies could make it impossible to keep a woman in high standing at court if the queen was determined to not allow that to happen. Which may have been what Rhaella wanted to do that point.

We have to keep in mind that she was not yet under suspicion to have affairs of her own nor was she yet confined to her apartments. She may have had considerable influence at court at this time. Even more so if her mother, Queen Dowager Shaera, was still around. If she did not die after the War of the Ninepenny Kings during the reign of Jaehaerys II she would have been living at the Red Keep with her children. I assume she must have been dead by the time Aerys accused Rhaella of infidelity since it is rather unlikely that Aerys would have dared accusing his sister-wife in this fashion while their mother was still alive. But since that happened long after the whole Joanna affair it is actually not that difficult to imagine that Rhaella had the power to very effectively put a stop to this affair between Joanna and Aerys.

If we don't assume Aerys was under the impression that he could continue his affair with Joanna even after her marriage then it is very odd that he actually presided over the wedding. Granted, it is possible that his eyes had found another pretty face at this time - we know he quickly tired of the women he had affairs with - but him taking liberties during the wedding is a pretty strong sign that this wasn't the case.

It is, of course, also possible that Joanna convinced Tywin that her affair with Aerys was over and they had no intention to continue it. But then, we don't actually know why the hell Joanna had an affair with Aerys in the first place. I mean, if she could rule Tywin one should assume she would also have been able to resist Aerys' charms/advances, especially in light of the fact that Aerys and Tywin were friends. One should assume that - if Aerys wanted to remain Tywin's friend - it would have been rather easy for Joanna to not begin an affair with Aerys. Her affair with Aerys may actually have been crucial for Tywin's appointment as Hand of the King. And if that was the case then Tywin actually owned his own rise to power to Joanna. This would put the whole thing in a completely different perspective.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not entirely true. Queen Rhaella didn't directly banish Joanna from court she merely dismissed her as her lady-in-waiting. Aerys may have been the higher authority but he was, apparently, not hiring and firing his sister-wife's servants. That was her thing to do. We don't know much about the subtleties of the Targaryen court but it easily imaginable that it was inconceivable that a woman who had been dismissed by the queen continued to remain at court in an exalted position. I could see Aerys keeping some unmarried woman as his mistress even after Rhaella had dismissed her, but the core thing about the Aerys-Joanna-Tywin triangle would have been secrecy. Neither Tywin Lannister nor Joanna could have survived the scandal had the court and Realm actually learned that Tywin Lannister was allowing the king to fuck his beloved wife. That would have destroyed them utterly and completely. And even Aerys would have understood that, apparently. In that sense, Rhaella dismissing Joanna could have started a chain of events that soon after let to Joanna's permanent return to Casterly Rock - something that would even more sense if Tywin then jumped on the opening Rhaella gave him and convinced Joanna that her affair with Aerys had to stop, for the good of the family, the house, and the Realm.

Rhaella dismissed Joanna, and Joanna "at once" left KL. Upon being dismissed, Joanna immediately left KL. Without any involvement from Aerys mentioned anywhere, that implies that Joanna left KL due to Rhaella. 

Aerys would, as King, have higher authority than Rhaella, and if he wanted Joanna to remain at court, and Rhaella was the only reason she was leaving, he could stop it from happening. That has got nothing to do with hiring or firing servants.

In addition, if anyone had a reason to remain at court, it would have been Joanna. She had just been married, and Tywin worked at KL, and was in need of an heir. Due to Tywin's position as Hand, it would have been logical for her to remain at KL, close to her husband, and the fact that they were newly-weds, would have made that only more logical. Yet, Joanna immediately left KL, and seldom returned. That, in itself, should mean something.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This could also explain why Joanna only got pregnant with Jaima and Cersei so late. If Joanna actually loved Aerys or allowed Tywin only sex of the sort Robert got from Cersei in their later years (non-vaginal intercourse) then this could explain why Joanna had the twins only three years after her marriage. If Joanna had no fertility issues it is odd that Tywin, who supposedly was very in love with his wife and often separated from her, didn't rather fervently try to impregnate her when they were together.

You say it yourself, they were often separated. The fact that they could not spend much time together makes it quite logical that their children were born after three years, hence, conceived after some two years, of marriage.

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As to Tywin's personality: We know now that the man consciously married a woman that effectively was 'a whore'. Joanna Lannister gave her maidenhead to Prince Aerys and later had an affair with him. There is no way that Tywin didn't know any of that. Even if those were all rumors (which is very unlikely) then Joanna was still a whore by reputation. And what would have made matters worse is the fact that she hadn't had an affair with 'some guy' but with Tywin's best from friend and boss.

No, we don't know. That is assuming that the rumours were true, and assuming that Tywin knew about that truth. Neither of those things have been confirmed, however. 

 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we don't assume Aerys was under the impression that he could continue his affair with Joanna even after her marriage then it is very odd that he actually presided over the wedding. Granted, it is possible that his eyes had found another pretty face at this time - we know he quickly tired of the women he had affairs with - but him taking liberties during the wedding is a pretty strong sign that this wasn't the case.

Have you considered the fact that Aerys only presided over the wedding feast and the bedding because it was expected of him, as the groom was his very own friend and Hand, and the wedding was held in the Great Sept of Baelor?

[purple-eyes]

It is sort of disappointing that grrm never told us what is feeling of Joanna. 

We know aerys loved her, we know tywin loved her. We know aerys humiliated her by harassing her both in wedding and later in tourney. We know tywin was angry in both cases . 

But Joanna's feeling is unknown. We do not even know if she loves Tywin.

i think this is just grrm's normal strategy to make things complicated and confusing. 

Just like he never told the feeling of Elia or lyanna. 

Honestly I feel kind of bored with this type of thing. To make things tricky or mysterious does not equal to hide information. 

You give your readers puzzle to play but you hide some important pieces, what is the point for this? Nobody can put together a puzzle if you do not give all pieces. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Rhaella dismissed Joanna, and Joanna "at once" left KL. Upon being dismissed, Joanna immediately left KL. Without any involvement from Aerys mentioned anywhere, that implies that Joanna left KL due to Rhaella. 

Aerys would, as King, have higher authority than Rhaella, and if he wanted Joanna to remain at court, and Rhaella was the only reason she was leaving, he could stop it from happening. That has got nothing to do with hiring or firing servants.

In addition, if anyone had a reason to remain at court, it would have been Joanna. She had just been married, and Tywin worked at KL, and was in need of an heir. Due to Tywin's position as Hand, it would have been logical for her to remain at KL, close to her husband, and the fact that they were newly-weds, would have made that only more logical. Yet, Joanna immediately left KL, and seldom returned. That, in itself, should mean something.

 

 

You say it yourself, they were often separated. The fact that they could not spend much time together makes it quite logical that their children were born after three years, hence, conceived after some two years, of marriage.

 

No, we don't know. That is assuming that the rumours were true, and assuming that Tywin knew about that truth. Neither of those things have been confirmed, however. 

 

Have you considered the fact that Aerys only presided over the wedding feast and the bedding because it was expected of him, as the groom was his very own friend and Hand, and the wedding was held in the Great Sept of Baelor?

We simply don't know what led to Joanna leaving the court. You can stress the immediately part there, but that doesn't illuminate anything. What does it mean? Did she leave in the very hour or the next day of week? And why didn't she stay at court because she was the Hand's wife? Had the queen the authority to banish the wife of the Hand from court? The Hand speaks with the King's Voice, the queen does not.

You may be right that Rhaella did not have to authority to banish Joanna without Aerys' consent but it may also have difficult to do this without Tywin's consent. Which leaves with the very odd notion that Tywin must either have not been willing or not able to allow Joanna to remain at court. As her husband he most likely had no reason to want her to leave. Unless he feared she would continue to cuckold him with his best friend, of course.

The fact is, we don't know the full story there. If those dreadful rumors weren't true at all then Rhaella may have dismissed Joanna for some other insignificant reason (perhaps she came to resent her taste of wardrobe) but it is most likely not as simple as that.

The idea that Aerys may have prevented Joanna's banishment if he still had any feelings for her or that Tywin as Hand may have prevented her leaving at all, regardless what the queen said. The fact that neither happened is a good enough hint that there is another layer to this whole thing that Yandel simply doesn't know anything about.

If Tywin was afraid that Aerys would continue to harass Joanna then one should reasonably assume that he would have resigned as Hand and returned to Casterly Rock with Joanna. It is difficult to imagine that Tywin would have remained Aerys' best friend if he was under the impression the king lusted after Joanna against her will. That is scenario that is very difficult to imagine.

But, again, things may have been so convoluted that nobody dared force the issue. If the on-going Joanna-Aerys affair after the wedding between Tywn and Joanna was a complete secret then the risk of it coming out in the wake of Rhaella dismissing Joanna might have been simply too big. Aerys and Joanna may have wanted to stay together but may have feared that if Aerys counter his wife's decision and/or simply keep her in the Red Keep under some pretext people would have gossiped and investigated the whole thing. If the continued affair was happening behind Tywin's back or if Tywin was only willing to allow Aerys and Joanna continue their affair as long as nobody knew things could easily have exploded thereafter. Honor would have demanded that Tywin do something to chastise his adulterous wife had the truth come out, not to mention that it would have been very difficult for him to keep a straight face in the public and continue serving Aerys as Hand.

Tywin and Joanna had their wedding night and, presumably, a couple of days, weeks, or months before she left court. One should assume that she would have had a chance to get pregnant then and there if there were no issues. In addition, there is no other pregnancy recorded during the long stay of the court in the West after Tytos' death yet Tywin failed to impregnate Joanna then, too. In addition, we have to assume that Tywin met with Joanna to actually conceive the twins so it worked eventually. But it clearly didn't immediately after their marriage and perhaps also during Tywin's first or second visit back home. That is odd.

We know about the rumors. If Yandel can write the rumors about Joanna's affair with Aerys in his history book, then Tywin most certainly would have known about them, too. That essentially makes Joanna a whore and soiled goods in the public eye. As a woman the reputation of being a slut is enough to destroy your reputation and make you an unfit wife for the heir to Casterly Rock. There is a chance that Joanna - if she truly ruled Tywin - was able to convince him that those were all wrong rumors and lies, but one really wonders who would have come up with such rather explicit rumors as Aerys deflowering Joanna in the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation or Joanna ruling as Aerys' mistress shortly after his ascension. While Tywin was Hand he must have been close enough to both Aerys and Joanna to actually know whether she was his mistress or not. I mean, if Joanna was his mistress then this would have been a semi-public affair, not something that happened in the closet.

If we ask ourselves why Yandel actually repeated those 'rumors' about Joanna and Aerys we have great difficulty to imagine why he would mention them at all if his purpose wasn't to make knowledge that hadn't exactly rumor status appear as if it was just a rumor. Again, Joanna ruling as Aerys' mistress cannot have been a rumor. Aerys secretly fucking Joanna behind closed doors could have been a rumor.

Yandel has no reason to slander the reputation of Joffrey's and Tommen's mother by repeating mere rumors nobody believed in. I mean, Joanna fucking Aerys, the very king her son later slew? That is nothing you want to hear under any circumstances.

If those were just slanderous rumors with no truth to it then it would have been a very stupid move to include such passages in a book that was dedicated to Robert/Joffrey/Tommen. I'd not want to read such rumors about my maternal grandmother in any book whose writer wanted to gain my favor. But if we assume that Yandel actually portrays Joanna in a much better light than other historical accounts or the memories of certain people still alive then this whole thing actually makes sense.

As to Aerys presiding over the wedding:

The wedding wouldn't have taken place in the Great Sept of Baelor or even in KL if Aerys had been against it. This was his city, and Hand of the King or not, if the king hadn't given Tywn and Joanna permission to marry in the Great Sept that wouldn't have happened. In fact, if Aerys hadn't wanted Joanna and Tywin to marry they wouldn't have married at all, presumably.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Rhaella dismissed Joanna, and Joanna "at once" left KL. Upon being dismissed, Joanna immediately left KL. Without any involvement from Aerys mentioned anywhere, that implies that Joanna left KL due to Rhaella. 

Aerys would, as King, have higher authority than Rhaella, and if he wanted Joanna to remain at court, and Rhaella was the only reason she was leaving, he could stop it from happening. That has got nothing to do with hiring or firing servants.

In addition, if anyone had a reason to remain at court, it would have been Joanna. She had just been married, and Tywin worked at KL, and was in need of an heir. Due to Tywin's position as Hand, it would have been logical for her to remain at KL, close to her husband, and the fact that they were newly-weds, would have made that only more logical. Yet, Joanna immediately left KL, and seldom returned. That, in itself, should mean something.

  You say it yourself, they were often separated. The fact that they could not spend much time together makes it quite logical that their children were born after three years, hence, conceived after some two years, of marriage.

 

No, we don't know. That is assuming that the rumours were true, and assuming that Tywin knew about that truth. Neither of those things have been confirmed, however. 

This x 1000.  women become "whores" in the public eye for nothing more than the "crime" of catching the eye of a higher up.  It happens today in business as well.  If a woman does well or advances some (sexist) people will automatically assume she is sleeping with someone above her.  

Aerys wanting Johanna would have been plenty of cause for her to be dismissed.  

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Have you considered the fact that Aerys only presided over the wedding feast and the bedding because it was expected of him, as the groom was his very own friend and Hand, and the wedding was held in the Great Sept of Baelor?

Yep yep. 

Aerys at this time was still trying to act like he had it together and wasn't violently envious of Tywin.  Of course he was.  And it came out in "little" ways like insulting him and Johanna.  And then he likely raped her later in his last desperate attempt to reset the power dynamic in his favor.  Which of course scorched the earth for all time.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We simply don't know what led to Joanna leaving the court. You can stress the immediately part there, but that doesn't illuminate anything. What does it mean? Did she leave in the very hour or the next day of week? And why didn't she stay at court because she was the Hand's wife? Had the queen the authority to banish the wife of the Hand from court? The Hand speaks with the King's Voice, the queen does not.

You may be right that Rhaella did not have to authority to banish Joanna without Aerys' consent but it may also have difficult to do this without Tywin's consent. Which leaves with the very odd notion that Tywin must either have not been willing or not able to allow Joanna to remain at court. As her husband he most likely had no reason to want her to leave. Unless he feared she would continue to cuckold him with his best friend, of course.

The fact is, we don't know the full story there. If those dreadful rumors weren't true at all then Rhaella may have dismissed Joanna for some other insignificant reason (perhaps she came to resent her taste of wardrobe) but it is most likely not as simple as that.

The idea that Aerys may have prevented Joanna's banishment if he still had any feelings for her or that Tywin as Hand may have prevented her leaving at all, regardless what the queen said. The fact that neither happened is a good enough hint that there is another layer to this whole thing that Yandel simply doesn't know anything about.

If Tywin was afraid that Aerys would continue to harass Joanna then one should reasonably assume that he would have resigned as Hand and returned to Casterly Rock with Joanna. It is difficult to imagine that Tywin would have remained Aerys' best friend if he was under the impression the king lusted after Joanna against her will. That is scenario that is very difficult to imagine.

But, again, things may have been so convoluted that nobody dared force the issue. If the on-going Joanna-Aerys affair after the wedding between Tywn and Joanna was a complete secret then the risk of it coming out in the wake of Rhaella dismissing Joanna might have been simply too big. Aerys and Joanna may have wanted to stay together but may have feared that if Aerys counter his wife's decision and/or simply keep her in the Red Keep under some pretext people would have gossiped and investigated the whole thing. If the continued affair was happening behind Tywin's back or if Tywin was only willing to allow Aerys and Joanna continue their affair as long as nobody knew things could easily have exploded thereafter. Honor would have demanded that Tywin do something to chastise his adulterous wife had the truth come out, not to mention that it would have been very difficult for him to keep a straight face in the public and continue serving Aerys as Hand.

Tywin and Joanna had their wedding night and, presumably, a couple of days, weeks, or months before she left court. One should assume that she would have had a chance to get pregnant then and there if there were no issues. In addition, there is no other pregnancy recorded during the long stay of the court in the West after Tytos' death yet Tywin failed to impregnate Joanna then, too. In addition, we have to assume that Tywin met with Joanna to actually conceive the twins so it worked eventually. But it clearly didn't immediately after their marriage and perhaps also during Tywin's first or second visit back home. That is odd.

We know about the rumors. If Yandel can write the rumors about Joanna's affair with Aerys in his history book, then Tywin most certainly would have known about them, too. That essentially makes Joanna a whore and soiled goods in the public eye. As a woman the reputation of being a slut is enough to destroy your reputation and make you an unfit wife for the heir to Casterly Rock. There is a chance that Joanna - if she truly ruled Tywin - was able to convince him that those were all wrong rumors and lies, but one really wonders who would have come up with such rather explicit rumors as Aerys deflowering Joanna in the night of Jaehaerys II's coronation or Joanna ruling as Aerys' mistress shortly after his ascension. While Tywin was Hand he must have been close enough to both Aerys and Joanna to actually know whether she was his mistress or not. I mean, if Joanna was his mistress then this would have been a semi-public affair, not something that happened in the closet.

If we ask ourselves why Yandel actually repeated those 'rumors' about Joanna and Aerys we have great difficulty to imagine why he would mention them at all if his purpose wasn't to make knowledge that hadn't exactly rumor status appear as if it was just a rumor. Again, Joanna ruling as Aerys' mistress cannot have been a rumor. Aerys secretly fucking Joanna behind closed doors could have been a rumor.

Yandel has no reason to slander the reputation of Joffrey's and Tommen's mother by repeating mere rumors nobody believed in. I mean, Joanna fucking Aerys, the very king her son later slew? That is nothing you want to hear under any circumstances.

If those were just slanderous rumors with no truth to it then it would have been a very stupid move to include such passages in a book that was dedicated to Robert/Joffrey/Tommen. I'd not want to read such rumors about my maternal grandmother in any book whose writer wanted to gain my favor. But if we assume that Yandel actually portrays Joanna in a much better light than other historical accounts or the memories of certain people still alive then this whole thing actually makes sense.

As to Aerys presiding over the wedding:

The wedding wouldn't have taken place in the Great Sept of Baelor or even in KL if Aerys had been against it. This was his city, and Hand of the King or not, if the king hadn't given Tywn and Joanna permission to marry in the Great Sept that wouldn't have happened. In fact, if Aerys hadn't wanted Joanna and Tywin to marry they wouldn't have married at all, presumably.

I completely agree if yandel wrote this (aerys and Joanna) in book, then it is not rumor. It is fact. It is something nobody can simply deny or ignore. There is no point to include this rumor to present to tommen. 

I think tywin loved her and also did not want to anger aerys so he sucked it up. 

later aerys got crazy and abusive so Joanna did not want to continue. 

But in the beginning she was willing to sleep with him. 

 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin and Joanna had their wedding night and, presumably, a couple of days, weeks, or months before she left court. One should assume that she would have had a chance to get pregnant then and there if there were no issues. In addition, there is no other pregnancy recorded during the long stay of the court in the West after Tytos' death yet Tywin failed to impregnate Joanna then, too. In addition, we have to assume that Tywin met with Joanna to actually conceive the twins so it worked eventually. But it clearly didn't immediately after their marriage and perhaps also during Tywin's first or second visit back home. That is odd.

You realise that, even in Westeros, not every woman immediately gets pregnant, right?

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If we ask ourselves why Yandel actually repeated those 'rumors' about Joanna and Aerys we have great difficulty to imagine why he would mention them at all if his purpose wasn't to make knowledge that hadn't exactly rumor status appear as if it was just a rumor. Again, Joanna ruling as Aerys' mistress cannot have been a rumor. Aerys secretly fucking Joanna behind closed doors could have been a rumor.

And yet, it was a rumor. The fact that Yandel repeats them means that the rumors were known and remembered amongst the right people, and presumably, not amongst only a few selective people at court. But the fact that he knows about them, and writes them down, doesn't mean that there was any truth to them. That is an entire different issue.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yandel has no reason to slander the reputation of Joffrey's and Tommen's mother by repeating mere rumors nobody believed in. I mean, Joanna fucking Aerys, the very king her son later slew? That is nothing you want to hear under any circumstances.

If those were just slanderous rumors with no truth to it then it would have been a very stupid move to include such passages in a book that was dedicated to Robert/Joffrey/Tommen. I'd not want to read such rumors about my maternal grandmother in any book whose writer wanted to gain my favor. But if we assume that Yandel actually portrays Joanna in a much better light than other historical accounts or the memories of certain people still alive then this whole thing actually makes sense.

But that is not entirely what he is doing. He's stating that there were rumors.. and next that there is absolutely no reason to believe in those rumors. That there were people who were trying to slander a Lannister, and that there should be no reason to ever believe such slander.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

You realise that, even in Westeros, not every woman immediately gets pregnant, right?

 

And yet, it was a rumor. The fact that Yandel repeats them means that the rumors were known and remembered amongst the right people, and presumably, not amongst only a few selective people at court. But the fact that he knows about them, and writes them down, doesn't mean that there was any truth to them. That is an entire different issue.

 

But that is not entirely what he is doing. He's stating that there were rumors.. and next that there is absolutely no reason to believe in those rumors. That there were people who were trying to slander a Lannister, and that there should be no reason to ever believe such slander.

 

 

Well, of course, but there is a tendency that fertile women get pregnant pretty soon (especially those in the historical accounts).

George could easily have arranged things so that Joanna got pregnant with the twins immediately/shortly after the wedding. That's what happened with a lot of other historical couples who all had no trouble conceiving.

It may mean nothing, of course, but Joanna's rather late pregnancy could also be a hint that she refused to have sex with Tywin or drank moon tea to ensure that she wouldn't be impregnated by either Aerys or Tywin.

Yandel tells us that it was a rumor. Does that make it a rumor? Perhaps. I'm not insisting that we have to believe the tale about Aerys deflowering Joanna in the night of his father's coronation. That could indeed just be a rumor grown out of the observation that Lady Joanna and Prince Aerys hung out a lot together during the feast and/or were seen disappearing together late in the night. After all, it is unlikely that anyone actually followed either Aerys or Joanna in their respective bedchamber.

But the rumor about Joanna ruling as King Aerys' mistress can technically not be a rumor. The 'rumor' effectively states that Joanna Lannister was King Aerys' official mistress. Kings don't hide official mistresses in the closet. They usually have exalted positions at court, and it is made clear to everyone that they belong to the king now. The idea that something like that could be merely 'a rumor' back in 262 AC just doesn't make any sense. Even if Joanna wasn't formally recognized as the king's mistress she would still have been seen touching, kissing, and fondling the king in a manner that gave the game away. Kings usually have no reasons to hide their affairs.

The fact that Joanna and Aerys were lovers back then may have been reduced to 'a vile rumor' in the subsequent during which Tywin was first the long-term Hand and then later the father of the queen. We know that he has the power and determination to make unpleasant things disappear so that could easily have happened in that case - especially after Joanna's untimely death. You don't speak ill about the dead, and most certainly not about the beloved wife of the Hand - even more so in Casterly Rock itself.

Another thing:

Do you guys remember Joanna's reaction when she discovers the incest? She seems to be very distraught, separates the twins, and is very determined to prevent that Tywin ever finds out. Why is that? If she ruled Tywin as people said she did that shouldn't be much a problem.

But if Tywin knew about her past affairs with Aerys - perhaps also the one that recently got her pregnant, perhaps not - then there is a very big chance that Tywin would possibly interpret the twincest as a sign of their Targaryen ancestry, believing that the twins, too, were Aerys' seed if the timeline allows that. We don't know if it is possible - and I'm pretty sure this is not the case - but still: If Jaime and Cersei were conceived during one Joanna's seldom visits to KL Aerys had access to her, too.

Even if none of that was the case incest within his own family certainly would put the Targaryens in Tywin's mind and if Aerys was Tyrion's father and Tywin had no idea about that, Joanna may have been rather afraid what her child may look like. Silver-gold hair and purple eyes would have given the game away for a certainty.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, of course, but there is a tendency that fertile women get pregnant pretty soon (especially those in the historical accounts).

George could easily have arranged things so that Joanna got pregnant with the twins immediately/shortly after the wedding. That's what happened with a lot of other historical couples who all had no trouble conceiving.

It may mean nothing, of course, but Joanna's rather late pregnancy could also be a hint that she refused to have sex with Tywin or drank moon tea to ensure that she wouldn't be impregnated by either Aerys or Tywin.

Yandel tells us that it was a rumor. Does that make it a rumor? Perhaps. I'm not insisting that we have to believe the tale about Aerys deflowering Joanna in the night of his father's coronation. That could indeed just be a rumor grown out of the observation that Lady Joanna and Prince Aerys hung out a lot together during the feast and/or were seen disappearing together late in the night. After all, it is unlikely that anyone actually followed either Aerys or Joanna in their respective bedchamber.

But the rumor about Joanna ruling as King Aerys' mistress can technically not be a rumor. The 'rumor' effectively states that Joanna Lannister was King Aerys' official mistress. Kings don't hide official mistresses in the closet. They usually have exalted positions at court, and it is made clear to everyone that they belong to the king now. The idea that something like that could be merely 'a rumor' back in 262 AC just doesn't make any sense. Even if Joanna wasn't formally recognized as the king's mistress she would still have been seen touching, kissing, and fondling the king in a manner that gave the game away. Kings usually have no reasons to hide their affairs.

Your logic is incredibly circular.  You're sayibg A rumor that Aerys took Johanna as a mistress could be based on literally nothing.  Aerys could have been bragging, or he could have made his interest in her known to anyone that would Listen.  Or if they even had a brief and chaste courtship when very young, that would be plenty for people to talk.

Quote

The fact that Joanna and Aerys were lovers back then may have been reduced to 'a vile rumor' in the subsequent during which Tywin was first the long-term Hand and then later the father of the queen. We know that he has the power and determination to make unpleasant things disappear so that could easily have happened in that case - especially after Joanna's untimely death. You don't speak ill about the dead, and most certainly not about the beloved wife of the Hand - even more so in Casterly Rock itself.

Another thing:

Do you guys remember Joanna's reaction when she discovers the incest? She seems to be very distraught, separates the twins, and is very determined to prevent that Tywin ever finds out. Why is that? If she ruled Tywin as people said she did that shouldn't be much a problem.

You are thinking way too hard about this.  She freaked out because to about 99.99% of people incest is gross and morally wrong.  She doesn't want Tywin to find out  is extremely normal behavior for someone that simply doesn't want to disturb their partner that they love/respect. 

Quote

But if Tywin knew about her past affairs with Aerys - perhaps also the one that recently got her pregnant, perhaps not - then there is a very big chance that Tywin would possibly interpret the twincest as a sign of their Targaryen ancestry, believing that the twins, too, were Aerys' seed if the timeline allows that. We don't know if it is possible - and I'm pretty sure this is not the case - but still: If Jaime and Cersei were conceived during one Joanna's seldom visits to KL Aerys had access to her, too.

Even if none of that was the case incest within his own family certainly would put the Targaryens in Tywin's mind and if Aerys was Tyrion's father and Tywin had no idea about that, Joanna may have been rather afraid what her child may look like. Silver-gold hair and purple eyes would have given the game away for a certainty.

 

[purple-eyes]

33 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Aerys could have been bragging, or he could have made his interest in her known to anyone that would Listen.  Or if they even had a brief and chaste courtship when very young, that would be plenty for people to talk.

 

Sorry, I literally laughed. 

We are talking about King aerys right? 

A chaste courtship? He is bragging and gossiping? 

He dared to harass her at her lavish wedding right in front of tywin, but he did not dare to have sex with her when she was single? 

Considering the book was written by pro Lannister Maester, I would say Joanna surely had a physical relationship with young aerys, maybe even her true love. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

11 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Sorry, I literally laughed. 

We are talking about King aerys right? 

A chaste courtship? He is bragging and gossiping? 

He dared to harass her at her lavish wedding right in front of tywin, but he did not dare to have sex with her when she was single? 

Considering the book was written by pro Lannister Maester, I would say Joanna surely had a physical relationship with young aerys, maybe even her true love. 

What??

i thought all you pro Aerys + Johanna people thought Aerys was a perfect gentleman as a young man.  I was going by your ideas.

and why wouldn't he sleep with her?  Duh, Because doing so would have been a big social Nono especially because Johanna may have been promised to Tywin his ally - and at least at some point Aerys actually cared about such things.  By the time Tywin married Johanna and Aerys groped her, Aerys would have been starting to slip.  Plus he was probably drunk.

There is absolutely no reason to suppose that Johanna would have slept with Aerys willingly other -  than speculation.  He wanted her is clear - nothing but rumors the other way.  And you get rumors about women that are completely baseless for all of human history.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Part of my post got eaten above.

so why would a pro Lannister maester mention a rumor about Johanna unless it was true?  Because he was writing this for Tommens benefit.  Tommen would benefit by knowing all of the ways that his enemies might try to attack them.

if there are rumors about his grandmother that could potentially put his mothers legitimacy in question (and hence his own) it benefits Tommen to know about them in advance so as not to be caught off guard.  And since Aerys obsession with Johanna is well known, it would be useful to know that some people speculated (without basis) that it went further.  

If Yandel was just a lickspittle, he'd say nothing about it.  Instead he's arming Tommen with useful information by telling him about these rumors.

again you people are thinking way too hard about this.  Look at the characters we are actually drawn - don't make up new ones.  It's not necessary for A+J=T and it's hard to understand how any of this could be "revealed" anyway.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Your logic is incredibly circular.  You're sayibg A rumor that Aerys took Johanna as a mistress could be based on literally nothing.  Aerys could have been bragging, or he could have made his interest in her known to anyone that would Listen.  Or if they even had a brief and chaste courtship when very young, that would be plenty for people to talk.

You are thinking way too hard about this.  She freaked out because to about 99.99% of people incest is gross and morally wrong.  She doesn't want Tywin to find out  is extremely normal behavior for someone that simply doesn't want to disturb their partner that they love/respect.

Well, Yandel talks about 'a scurrilous rumor' and he the only man he cites to discard the rumor is our good friend Pycelle whose Tywin fanboyism is well known and who would have had every interest to make the story about Aerys and Joanna being lovers disappear.

Joanna supposedly 'enjoyed a brief reign as Aerys' paramour' shortly after he ascended the Iron Throne and that simply isn't something that works all that well as 'a rumor' as George would easily know.

It is on the same level as a rumor stating that this or that guy isn't a closeted homosexual but lives openly together with his boyfriend. This kind of 'rumor' could easily be verified or falsified whereas real rumors tend to survive because that is more difficult.

Yandel writes his history only a few decades later. Plenty of people actually knowing Aerys and Joanna are still alive, and could actually comment on that 'rumor'. Which is why Yandel includes it at all.

He has no ammunition aside from Pycelle's assurances that Tywin would never have married Joanna if he was soiled goods. But that proves nothing. It just badly reflects on Pycelle as a source because we know that Tywin actually feasted on another man's leavings (Tyrion's) in the series itself. Joanna being Aerys' leavings certainly wouldn't prevent Tywin from marrying her.

Pycelle clearly has fallen victim to the public image Tywin has created of himself - or he has fallen victim to the image of Tywin he has made himself in his own head.

Whether Yandel believes any of that is difficult to say. He may have either have chosen to rely greatly on Pycelle as a source because he honestly thinks Pycelle is a good source (unlikely, I think) or he chose him as a main source because it helped him to portray the Aerys-Tywin relationship (and Aerys as a king/person in general) in the light he wanted to portray it.

You don't have to lie as a historian. You can leave that to your sources...

Oh, and by the way:

Joanna being a whore doesn't cast doubts on Tommen's legitimacy. Cersei Lannister was King Robert's wife and queen, and she is now the Queen Dowager regardless whether her mother had a premarital affair with King Aerys. It makes her and Tywin look bad to repeat such rumors, and thus also makes Joff and Tommen appear in a bad light, but it is no real threat to his legitimacy.

Especially not since there are no rumors whatsoever that either the twins or Tyrion are not Tywin's sons. All that is said is that Joanna and Aerys had an affair.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

If we in universe speculate about Aerys being the father of Tywins children based on almost no information, then obviously someone who had the political reason to could use a rumor about Aerys and Johanna to try to discredit Tywin and/or Cersei.  It is useful for the king to have that information so that he can forestall any attack as based only on scurrilous rumor. 

And again.  You're literally saying a rumor that she was his paramour cannot be a rumor which is just so circular I don't even know how to respond.  It's either a rumor based on incomplete information or it's a rumor that happens to be true.  Honestly if it was as obvious as you say when someone is someone's paramour then we wouldn't even call this a rumor.  It would be called common knowledge.  Which it clearly is not.