New Episode of Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire Podcast: The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai

[LmL]

One of the last pieces of art that I found to use in the essay version was this amazing piece by  Dimitris Koumentakakos (here's his website). He didn't make this for ASOIAF but there's your black heart and black blood burnt by a black dragon... sweet.  Ladies and gentlemen... Lightbringer. 

[Equilibrium]

It's about 75% new material, honestly. I have new evidence but also new ideas all together. I think you'll have to read it. Or listen, if you prefer. Don't you want to hear me give the brotherhood without banners speech in my best "strangled and ressurected guy" voice?  I'm telling you... 

Theres some specultion about Dawn as it relates to LB that is like to get your feedback on, and I'm also taking a look at the idea of a "monomyth" of ASOIAF, which I think you'll enjoy. Also the idea of the LB meteors as being poison is a totally new concept.

There should be plenty to hold you attention.... but no rush, brother. Whenever you have your shit taken care of, hit it up. 

I that case I will hit it as soon as possible, and of course give plenty of feedback.

[Sly Wren]

Thanks Sly Wren, that means a lot coming from you!  The "Bloodstone Compendium" title was made with this thinking in mind... Jade Compendium, Bloodstone Compendium. I'm like an old, slighty-crazy scholar from Qarth running around trying to tell anyone who will listen that Azor Ahai broke the moon who wrote a book of dubious merit. Heh. I'm Urrathon Nightwalker's more lucid younger brother (sorry about him, he was dropped on his head when he was young). 

Well, Urrathon had it coming--or are you confessing to "helping" him "drop?"

I've actually written the next episode already, which is a continuation of this one about the various bloodstone ideas. I think I saved some of the best stuff for that one, including a breakdown of Sansa's "first flowering" nightmare experience in the Red Keep, which is a super-detailed celestial metaphor and explains the concept of "moon blood" which I think Mr. Martin is having a lot of twisted fun with. I'm all going to dissect the Oberyn vs the Mountain duel, which is really fantastic because it has almost every bloodstone idea in effect. Lastly, the heliotropium as a flower section has really rounded into form, which was something I was only sniffing at when I wrote the first version of the Bloodstone essay a long time ago. It's a really cool metaphor and I'm looking forward to laying it out.

This sounds fabulous.

Also, the House Dayne Part 2 History of Westeros podcast should be out later this month, and that's going to be a blast. 

Here's Part One of their House Dayne coverage, where I do the voices for Darkstar and a couple others. I'll be on camera and whatnot in the second part.

Thanks for the link! I will keep an eye out for part 2--so, does your parrot get a cameo?

[LmL]

Well, Urrathon had it coming--or are you confessing to "helping" him "drop?"

This sounds fabulous.

Thanks for the link! I will keep an eye out for part 2--so, does your parrot get a cameo?

I was thinking about it. We haven't filmed yet. If I do pull a pirate stance, I'll be sure to use the pink one. 

[Ice Queen]

I was thinking about it. We haven't filmed yet. If I do pull a pirate stance, I'll be sure to use the pink one. 

I truly appreciate all the effort you've put into this.  I'm not completely up to date but I'm getting there and I'm very impressed.

Love the parrot!

[Durran Durrandon]

I got about halfway through yeaterday. I will save deeper comments for later, but again, a well composed rewrite.

[LmL]

I got about halfway through yeaterday. I will save deeper comments for later, but again, a well composed rewrite.

Awesome, glad to hear. I'm about to do all the specific bloodstone associations in the second half, which for you will be like seeing your little children all grown up since you were the one to point me at the heliotrope / bloodstone mythology.

[LmL]

I truly appreciate all the effort you've put into this.  I'm not completely up to date but I'm getting there and I'm very impressed.

Love the parrot!

Awesome! All you have to worry about as far as being up to date is the two podcasts - one - two - or their matching essays - one - two. They contain the same material, the only difference is that with the essays you get pictures, and with the podcasts you get occasional funny voices.

Thanks so much for listening or reading. The energy to do this comes from being stoked on the depth of symbolism and metaphor that I think George is using, and from other people sharing in that stoked-ed-ness. I just think it's so freaking cool, what he's doing. I've learned a ton trying to follow his references to myth and literature... even if all my theories are wrong I won't be sorry for having invested the time. It's been a blast. 

[Durran Durrandon]

Two things. You were referencing the idea of Robert B. having some of the the swollen black-black blood-poison imagery, but I don't think you referenced this quote about him given by one of our troublesome sparrow street preachers.:

"The Rotten Summer is at an end, and the Whoremonger King is brought low! When the boar did open him, a great stench rose to heaven and a thousand snakes slid forth from his belly, hissing and biting!” He jabbed his bony finger back at comet and castle. “There comes the Harbinger! Cleanse yourselves, the gods cry out, lest ye be cleansed! Bathe in the wine of righteousness, or you shall be bathed in fire! Fire! ” (Clash of Kings 312)

It's a pretty sweet quote given your analysis.

Your inclusion of Sansa's amethyst hairnet caught me off guard. However, it has always bothered me that they were amethysts, and your inclusion of them into the the theme works very well to make the amethysts relevant, bringing the Amethyst Empress, Nissa Nissa, second moon circle connection in line with the Ghost of Highheart's snake metaphor.

[LmL]

Two things. You were referencing the idea of Robert B. having some of the the swollen black-black blood-poison imagery, but I don't think you referenced this quote about him given by one of our troublesome sparrow street preachers.:

It's a pretty sweet quote given your analysis.

Your inclusion of Sansa's amethyst hairnet caught me off guard. However, it has always bothered me that they were amethysts, and your inclusion of them into the the theme works very well to make the amethysts relevant, bringing the Amethyst Empress, Nissa Nissa, second moon circle connection in line with the Ghost of Highheart's snake metaphor.

Ah, see, that just goes to show, there's always more! Yeah that's absolutely perfect, and with the comet in the scene even. That's ok though, I haven't done any of the sacrificed stag stag stuff - like Renly's murder - so I can always go back for that one.

It was fun to work Sansa into the mix for once, definitely, and I'll be doing more Sansa next episode. You know, Durran, I was just looking at Sansa's snow castle scene, and I do believe young Miss Sansa is acting like the Night's Queen, a subject near and dear to your heart. Check it out. 

[Durran Durrandon]

Ah, see, that just goes to show, there's always more! Yeah that's absolutely perfect, and with the comet in the scene even. That's ok though, I haven't done any of the sacrificed stag stag stuff - like Renly's murder - so I can always go back for that one.

It was fun to work Sansa into the mix for once, definitely, and I'll be doing more Sansa next episode. You know, Durran, I was just looking at Sansa's snow castle scene, and I do believe young Miss Sansa is acting like the Night's Queen, a subject near and dear to your heart. Check it out. 

I  just kind of assumed you key word searched every reference to a "thousand" by now. I am pretty keen that Sansa’s snow castle along with the Highheart  prophecy for shadow  her killing  Littlefinger, but Im all for a double layer. I'll take a  look.

[LmL]

I  just kind of assumed you key word searched every reference to a "thousand" by now. I am pretty keen that Sansa’s snow castle along with the Highheart  prophecy for shadow  her killing  Littlefinger, but Im all for a double layer. I'll take a  look.

Yeah it seems the layers of meaning related to the Dawn Age or to one of the key ASOIAF archetypes sit on top of more direct meanings for the main story. Sansa's killing Littlefinger has astronomical correlations as well. Consider his old sigil, the Titans's head - that head as flames for eyes. A flaming stone head, way up in the sky? That's been decapitated? You know what I say about that sort of thing.

Moon meteors! 

Those are like the eyeless skulls Mel sees that seem to trigger the black and bloody tide. Since the sun and moon can be faces or heads, decapitation makes an easy fallen moon metaphor, as I will show with the Gregor / Oberyn breakdown

I have noticed the snakes from Robert's belly, as well as that whole scene (the worm stuff is important too), but I just sort of forgot about it. I have so many quote pulls in notes, it's easy to get lost. 

[Ygrain]

I wrote a post when I was about mid-half through the podcast but the forums ate it. So, a new attempt now that I am finished:

A splendid job on voicing Beric, that was creeeepy!

Black blood indeed indicates something very unhealthy, like a poison, be it a real poison or sepsis. It is interesting to note in our "fire zombies", Beric and Cat, because "RL" zombies are supposedly also made using some kind of poison that destroys the person's will and makes them obey the sorcerer. One has to wonder: the wights aka the ice zombies are controlled by something or someone but, as we see with Othor or Thistle, they retain their memories. Now, who might be controlling Cat, somewhere at the back of her mind? - Speaking about the parallel between the ice and fire magic, I haven't read DD's essay on Melisandre and the pale woman but it is an idea that I also posted some time ago, the similarities are quite obvious (and disconcerting).

There is this weird mix-up of pre-apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic events. AA supposedly forged the Lightbringer to drive away the darkness, but your interpretation of the celestial events (which I find very convincing) makes this forging the actual cause of the apocalypse, and the apocalypse was, after all, ended somehow. With your idea of Dawn as somehow cleansed Lightbringer, it comes to mind that Lightbringer could have been both the cause and the cure of the Long Night - either the same sword which was somehow transformed, or there was a new Lightbringer, the production of which was modified not to include AA's atrocity. A sacrifice of the creator of the sword himself might be a solution, in case the "fire and blood" recipe must be followed, and I much agree with you that voluntary sacrifice might make things right - BTW, what happened to the original AA? Could he have repented and himself tried to undo his evil by ending the Long Night?

Dany's bloody footprints in her dream could have been caused by blood trickling down her thighs, like after childbirth. The dragon was slick with her blood, after all.

That's all for now but I guess I might want to listen again because this stuff is really huge, in a good way :-)
 

 

[LmL]

I wrote a post when I was about mid-half through the podcast but the forums ate it. So, a new attempt now that I am finished:

A splendid job on voicing Beric, that was creeeepy!

Black blood indeed indicates something very unhealthy, like a poison, be it a real poison or sepsis. It is interesting to note in our "fire zombies", Beric and Cat, because "RL" zombies are supposedly also made using some kind of poison that destroys the person's will and makes them obey the sorcerer. One has to wonder: the wights aka the ice zombies are controlled by something or someone but, as we see with Othor or Thistle, they retain their memories. Now, who might be controlling Cat, somewhere at the back of her mind? - Speaking about the parallel between the ice and fire magic, I haven't read DD's essay on Melisandre and the pale woman but it is an idea that I also posted some time ago, the similarities are quite obvious (and disconcerting).

There is this weird mix-up of pre-apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic events. AA supposedly forged the Lightbringer to drive away the darkness, but your interpretation of the celestial events (which I find very convincing) makes this forging the actual cause of the apocalypse, and the apocalypse was, after all, ended somehow. With your idea of Dawn as somehow cleansed Lightbringer, it comes to mind that Lightbringer could have been both the cause and the cure of the Long Night - either the same sword which was somehow transformed, or there was a new Lightbringer, the production of which was modified not to include AA's atrocity. A sacrifice of the creator of the sword himself might be a solution, in case the "fire and blood" recipe must be followed, and I much agree with you that voluntary sacrifice might make things right - BTW, what happened to the original AA? Could he have repented and himself tried to undo his evil by ending the Long Night?

Dany's bloody footprints in her dream could have been caused by blood trickling down her thighs, like after childbirth. The dragon was slick with her blood, after all.

That's all for now but I guess I might want to listen again because this stuff is really huge, in a good way :-)
 

 

Hey Ygrain, thanks for listening and it's great to have you in the discussion  

Yes, the idea that AA repented and tried to undo some the evil he caused is definitely a possibility. It makes a lot of narrative sense and reminds of of (spoilers original Star Wars) Darth Vader tossing the Emperor over the railing. Theon might be headed for something like that too, a long life of trouble making with a tiny little redemption arc at the end. Also, the idea of the solution being contained in the problem is appealing. AA gave them lemonbringer, and they made lemonbringer-ade, you know? 

Now that we can see that many of George's old folktales have similar characters and themes, we have the difficult job of trying to determine which myths refer to the same person, and which do not. The Grey King did a lot of Azor Ahai things, stealing fire from heaven and possessing that fire in some way (perhaps he made weapons from a sea dragon meteor?). But is the Grey King story another version of AA? Or maybe parts of the story refer to AA, and parts refer to a more local figure, and now they are combined? (the latter happens a lot in the real world) 

So as to the NK and LH - they are the ones in the right place to be involved in the ending of the LN story, on one side or the other. I tend to think the NK did not live after the LN, but during, fwiw. I've considered many different ideas - the NK = AA, the LH his son, AA as the LH... the LH as someone (Westerosi native) who defeated AA and took his sword to fight the Others... and of course the idea is out there that the LH was the NK, and sacrificing his seed to the Othwrs was a part of some pact to end the LN. That's got the sacrifice and procreation aspects - the NK sacrificed himself, really, as the NQ sucked his seed and soul away to make white shadows. It's pretty horrific. Perhaps AA volunteered to do it as atonement. 

Btw, yeah, once you notice the NQ - Mel parallels, they are quite striking. 

Whoever the LH was, I think it was a sacrificial endeavor. In fact, I I've picked up a whole line of symbolic evidence that the LH's 12 dead companions were actually undead companions, the first NW. Furthermore, I belive they were skinchangers and greenseers who were resurrected to make Coldhands-style conscious wights. Consider Coldhands - he's PERFECTLY equipped to "journey into the frozen dead lands" and confront the Others, in whatever manner that confrontation occurred. He's impervious to cold. He doesn't need to eat or sleep. He seems to have the ability to speak to and control animals - meaning he retained his greenseer abilities after resurrection, which is great news for Jonny boy - and still seems to have access to either weirwoodnet directly or through contact with Bloodraven. 

In other words, that group of 13 might have had to give up their lives to be resurrected in order to make the trip at all. Very sacrificial. And then one of them got to wonder around in the snow for EIGHT THOUSAND YEARS waiting for Bran.

Sweet. 

[LmL]

As for the black blood, there are several instances of black blood in the books: burnt people and poisoned people, as I pointed out, plus the euphemistic black blood, such as with the NW, Craster, and House Hoare of the Iron Islands. IMO, although there are certainly plausible reasons for all of these on the surface, there is a symbolic purpose for the black blood which is present in all cases. In fact, the important symbolic leanings I am looking for always sit on top of a mundane reason - it has to work like that, or the need to make symbolism pulls the story in weird directions. George is very skilled at maintaining the skeleton of a metaphorical pattern while still flexing it enough to fit the specific scene and also to disguise itself. I'm going to get to House Hoare and Harren the Black in due course, but I do think it fits into the Azor Ahai black blood ideas. Consider Harrenhall - it's a giant black castle (check) burned by dragonfire (check) which is basically an abomination to the gods (check) and it even reaches for the sky, as AA did (check). Also, it sits next to the Gods Eye, and so it's being used as a symbol to make God's Eye astronomy metaphors. I'll be doing a lot of Harrenhall and Arya in the Riverlands in my Gods Eye essay. :)

[Ice Queen]

Awesome! All you have to worry about as far as being up to date is the two podcasts - one - two - or their matching essays - one - two. They contain the same material, the only difference is that with the essays you get pictures, and with the podcasts you get occasional funny voices.

Thanks so much for listening or reading. The energy to do this comes from being stoked on the depth of symbolism and metaphor that I think George is using, and from other people sharing in that stoked-ed-ness. I just think it's so freaking cool, what he's doing. I've learned a ton trying to follow his references to myth and literature... even if all my theories are wrong I won't be sorry for having invested the time. It's been a blast. 

I bet it has been! I'd bet you got a lot more right than wrong, but learning new things is the fun of it.  

[Nozlym]

hey LmL, ive been away from the site awhile, but have u changed things up now?

no more long posts but instead u doing podcasts?

[Bluetiger]

One thing puzzles me. That not only ASOIAF characters fit archetypes from AA and AE legends...

For example Rhaenyra Targaryen (who had purple=amethyst eyes and is based on real history Empress Matilda) fits the Amethyst Empress archetype very well. Aegon II would be the Bloodstone Emperor who usurped her throne. (Cregan Stark the Last Hero? )

Do you think that it's possible that Dance of Dragons, D&E, Robert's Rebellion, Blackfyre Rebellions, The Conquest are also retold versions of Azor Ahai legend?

[LmL]

One thing puzzles me. That not only ASOIAF characters fit archetypes from AA and AE legends...

 

For example Rhaenyra Targaryen (who had purple=amethyst eyes and is based on real history Empress Matilda) fits the Amethyst Empress archetype very well. Aegon II would be the Bloodstone Emperor who usurped her throne. (Cregan Stark the Last Hero? )

 

Do you think that it's possible that Dance of Dragons, D&E, Robert's Rebellion, Blackfyre Rebellions, The Conquest are also retold versions of Azor Ahai legend?

I think that at the very least, bits and pieces of those fights are retell;ling Dawn Age events. However, the forging of Lightbringer part of the myth, while it represents several ideas at once, is only one part of the story. There seems to be a whole sequence of events, because AA has to come to Westeros somehow, and this seems to involve Battle Isle... but then the Long Night seems to have been ended up north... so when we see these important battle scenes and war sequences, I definitely think there is Dawn Age rear-shadowing going on, but it's super murky to try to get any level of specificity. For example, we have several people who invaded or burned Oldtown - Samwell Starfire Dayne, Dalton Greyjoy, and soon Euron, and maybe Dany. I'm pretty AA did this too. The usurpation theme we see many times, and usually it's telling us something about the BSE aspect of AA, as you suggest with the Dance. Daemon Blackfyre and Daemon Targaryen of TPATQ are also usurpers after a fashion.

And yes, Robert plays into this too, though that needs a longer explanation. 

The various local myths which align with parts of the AA myth are interesting for their similarities, but also for their differences. The parts which vary from the AA monomyth probably tell us something more specific about that locale. A lot of the Grey King myth aligns with AA, but there are elements which are specific to Ironborn culture. And things which fall between - was the island drowning of the sea dragon due to a meteor which landed next to the Iron Islands, or did the meteor land elsewhere and just trigger earthquakes or floods which then made their way to the Iron Islands? What's up with all the weirwood on the Iron Islands - Nagga's bones and the staff of Galon Whitestaff? Grey King had a throne and crown of Nagga's bones, and if those are petrified weirwood as they seem to be, that suggest a weirwood throne and crown... which sounds like a greenseer, sitting in weirwood with weirwood roots wrapping around his head. The Grey King lived to be 1,000, and grew old and corpselike. Sounds like Bloodraven or the Black Gate weirwood face. What does all this mean? Was Azor Ahai a greenseer, or did he perhaps kill greenseers and take their power? Or was this an iron Islands greenseer war pasted on to stories about Azor Ahai? Do all the stories of people coming across the sea or lands across the sunset sea refer to Azor Ahai's naval invasion of Westeros, or something more local? 

It's fun to try to hash that out.

[LmL]

I bet it has been! I'd bet you got a lot more right than wrong, but learning new things is the fun of it.  

Thanks! Always nice to have the cat ladies on my side!

hey LmL, ive been away from the site awhile, but have u changed things up now?

no more long posts but instead u doing podcasts?

Hey Nozlym. So, I started turning my main essays into podcasts, but in the process, I ended up completely re-writing them and adding to them, so I have been releasing the podcasts alongside their matching essays. Basically, you can read or listen, whichever you prefer. I'm going to keep doing this to my other important ones - the Fingerprints of the Dawn and Language of Leviathan, as well as Lucifer means Lightbringer (the one about the Morningstar and the gnostic interpretation of the Garden of Eden). But I'll also be dropping whole new essay / podcasts, so I can get into topics I've wanted to discuss for a long time... like greenseers and the Others and Dawn. 

On the upcoming History of Westeros pod we will cover a lot of the Great Empire of the Dawn stuff as well as taking a look at anachronistic structures in Dawn Age Westeros. Shortly after I'll do my full fingerprints of the Dawn deal as a companion piece.