From Death to Dawn #3: Sansa, Lyanna, Jaime, Rhaegar, and the Search for One True Knight

[LmL]

1. Yes--we are getting closer.

2. On the bolded sections above: I agree with the idea of broad archetypes and that they have different manifestations. That works not just in Martin, but in most cultures. On the second bolded (#2)--absolutely.

On the first bolded (#1)--the problem comes with making it too broad (a terrible pun considering the subject matter--sorry). Swords do have the double-edged element to them in Martin. But they don't always mean new life or perpetuating life, even in the examples you gave above. They can lead to new life with moon-maids. But also--not. So. . . seems like there's a danger of too broad (sorry) of strokes at times.

 

The Lightbringer myth is specifically murder and / or impregnation. One represents death, and one life. Sometimes they appear together, when a mother dies in childbirth. That's the deal with Lightbringer - it is a sword and a torch. That's borrowed from Mithras, who holds a sword in one hand and a torch in the other. The sword = death, the torch = life. Lightbringer, the flaming sword, represents both. At least, the concept of Lightbringer does. AA's sword inverted the torch aspect, which is why it was a defilement (one reason anyway). So it's not too broad, it's specifically a pair of opposite things mixed together. But in general, yeah, you have to work hard to narrow down the main archetype.

 

On the third bolded (#3)--I agree on looking for the pattern. But, once identified, has to be compared to the context to see if it fits. If the specific context doesn't fit with the general pattern--seems like that's grounds for adjusting the assumption off the pattern.

IE: Your Sansa example: 

 I agree that the patterns are flexible. But, when you look at what she's doing in the context of the scene--what she's dreaming about before going into the garden, what she's remembering about Winterfell and the snow fight with Arya and Bran, the way that castle pours out of her, how she names the taste of the snow as "the taste of Winterfell" and "warm as lover's kisses"--that kind of specificity seems to limit the flexibility of the imagery a bit. She's rebuilding her home, reasserting herself as a Stark. Using her snow castle against the Bael-ish who stole her. 

I do think she is likely to end up the propagator of House Stark in many ways. In that sense, kind of an Anti-Night's Queen: not tempting the Lord Commander away from his rightful protection of the North. But rebuilding and reasserting the protection of the North asserted by Winterfell and the Starks. 

Would that fit with your idea of reverse sides to archetypes?

 

Sansa is making a snow fortress and snow knights. She's using frozen wood a lot to do so. I thin kthe Starks parallel the Others in many ways. So Sansa being the progenitor of House Stark is very much parallel to the NQ making Others.  If the NK was a Stark, then they were making Starks too. So I would say Sansa making Starks - snow warriors - is the nice version of the NQ making Others. They're not inverted, but one is an undead, evil form of the other more natural process.  

 

I agree on a lot of this--though I'm less sold than I used to be re: Jon as Targaryen. 

On Beric--sort of back to the OP--he's not just AAish; he's also a good knight fallen and innately corrupted. The lack of humanity undermines his ability to "knight" (I'm going to pretend that's a verb). I'd also add that the purple lightning might tie into the Daynes--white sword on purple. Lightning had sword qualities. Throw in the white stars and the betrothal to Ashara and Edric as squire--the Lightning Lord seems like an echo of a true knight. That Sansa doesn't recognize at first, but sees later when praying for help in the godswood. But is corrupted by the good intentions of fire magic gone horribly awry. 

 

I take Beric being engaged to a Dayne and having a Dayne as squire as a clue that the BSE AA had a child with a Westerosi woman and founded House Dayne. A squire is a lot like a son.  

 

And on AA--I agree it's a big archetype, especially for Mel. But all of these old stories--especially the old prophecies--seem like games of telephone. Really seems like the actual way to defeat the Long Night might have gotten garbled into the Eastern and Asshai'i prophecies. That we should be looking not for eastern, fiery, dragon-based magics. But the "true men of the Watch"--those who hold true and guard the realms. Sworn brothers. Not fighting fire and ice. But dark into dawn.  . 

 

 

Not even sure how I managed to break your quote like this... hmm. Anyway, the NW wields fire. If they have frozen fire - which is magical in nature - then all the better. But yeah... the NW is very fiery. They are parallel with the black meteors that burn red, black brothers wielding fire against the NW. When they tumble down, scarecrow cloaks ablaze, they are really acting like meteors. And the scarecrow reference create a parallel with Beric - and those are the straw NW brothers which are themselves meant to represent dead NW men. I.e., the original NW was undead, and wielded fire magic. So... yeah. That is the magic of the North - dark metals to fight the cold, ya know?

I think the black ice and red fire gives us a clue that we need to meld ice and fire, of course, which is the whole deal with uniting fire magic and old gods magic, or even Other magic and fire magic. Because remember - the Others are not just ice. They have burning blue stars for eyes - that's extremely fiery. It's just blue fire. Which, incidentally, is the hottest type of fire, be it actual flame or star color.  

 

 

Yes--this is closer to what I'm thinking. The Long Night is the problem, not ice vs. fire. The Targs seem to have made things worse by messing with the Wall, the Watch, and the Starks. The true enemy is the darkness. . . .

So--my free-thinking association answer to yours, ser. Play at will!

So the problem is breaking the cycle, yes. The Long Night represents night which does not give way to day, and winter which does not give way to spring. Also, death which does not give way to live - the Others and the wights. Winter, night, and death all have their place in the cycles, but only if they play their part and keep things moving. Stopping that wheel is the real evil of ASOIAF. Within that context, ice and fire both have shown us the potential for unlife, zombification, shadow, etc. So I would guess that Martin sees light and shadow with both ice and fire, or something like that. 

[Isobel Harper]

 

Possible--but if Rhaegar thought (hypothetically) that he needed three children, then he wasn't aiming for just one child. And they don't fail against the "trial" like the first forgings fail. . . 

Possible--though, as I said to @LmL above, I'm less sold than I used to be on Jon's being Targaryen. Let alone on why Rhaegar took Lyanna. 

That said, the idea that a person needs to be metaphorically forged and tried to bring forth the effective warrior/weapon--yeah, that metaphor I can buy.

Very interesting.  . .I'm not sure how we can discuss this unless we keep it in spoilers, but I think the above is a definite possibility.

On the ships--are you drawing the parallel off the names mostly, or also on the idea of history's frequently repeating itself in the novels?

Both, but mainly the latter.  The name similarity is something that recently occurred to me.

 I've long since concluded that Aurane will side with Aegon (though time will tell if that assumption is correct) and believe that he (and the Velaryons?) could end up as one of the formidable naval powers in the future.  

Another historical parallel that I note is between Aurane Waters and Daemon Targaryen, who was crowned by Corlys Velaryon as King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea.  However, Aurane (a Velaryon bastard) has only crowned himself, more or less. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

And if Ygritte hadn't slapped that disclaimer on the "love/seduction" part of the story, I'd be right there with you. But that is what Ygritte gives us--the love/seduction are not certain. The Maid herself isn't mentioned until after Bael takes her--she's the means to his end. Which fits what Martin gives us before we get to Ygritte's tale via Bael-ish. And what we get when we hear about and meet Mance.

When I re-read the Bael Tale, I was surprised by how much I'd assumed was in it that just isn't there. What the focus and context and content really were. The love story--as you say, that's what Sansa focuses on. But it's not the focus of the Bael Tale as given by Ygritte.

I'm not calling it a love story, just saying the element of seduction is there for better or worse. So are you thinking Bael's encounter with the Stark maid was non-consensual? That he kidnapped/held her captive? I was just thinking that they spent the night together, he left her with sweet BS promises, she hid in the crypt to avoid being force-fed moon tea, probably regretted everything after it was too late.

Obviously that's reading a lot into a very short story, but it seems they did have a sexual encounter, which must have been either consensual (seduction) or not (kidnapping).

BTW I'm not questioning that Bael's motive was to stick it to Lord Stark, and not arguing that he actually cared about the daughter beyond a means to an end.

 

(PS I like your sandbox :-))

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just remembered I never responded to this part...

 

Interesting and very cool stuff.

1. I like the idea of multiple swords. But I think Dawn is a whole, complete thing. Would be one way to explain why AA was pursuing a stronger sword--was trying to "copy" or "overcome" the original sword. Did it via blood sacrifice. Vs. the story of the Just Maid--a sword that's a gift based on love an worth.

--So, about Dawn and sword splitting:
Whether a split sword is "whole" depends on context of splitting I think. I suspect Blackfyre and Dark Sister are products of a split sword also. So we possibly have 3 examples:
Dawn = Just Maid/Original Ice/Dawn2 + Lightbringer
Ancestral Targaryen sword = Blackfyre + Dark Sister
Modern Ice = Oathkeeper + Widow's Wail

I think Dawn2/LB & Blackfyre/DS were separated in a spirit of love and generosity. Two worthy heirs to an ancestral sword, so both get a piece. Modern Ice, on the other hand, is split in a spiteful spirit. It's a tragedy. It would be different if, say, Ned's tenure as Hand had been largely uneventful, Arya kept training with a sword for several years, and when Ice passed to Rob he decided to have it split and give part to Arya. That would be sweet and touching rather than horrible like what Tywin did.

So even though Dawn2 was result of splitting I would consider it a whole and complete sword. It is as its original's rightful owner, the AE, intended it to be. And its sibling sword, which would become Lightbringer, was also just fine at first. But in an effort to get an edge over the sapphire knight, Azor Ahai used blood magic and probably added some sort of dark material--"bloodstone"?--to "supercharge" his half. Afterwards, Just Maid/Ice/Dawn2 appeared just as original Dawn always had--pale as milkglass--while Lightbringer became a dark sword. Perhaps indistinguishable from modern Valyrian steel. (I think Longclaw actually makes a decent possible candidate.)

We don't know how the Sword of the Morning is chosen yet. But it sounds like the family chooses--and if no one's good enough, the sword waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning shall rise. Any chance the pale swords the kings Dany sees in her "vision" are multiple swords instead of just one? 

--Yeah, it's totally unclear how the process works. And it seems to have worked the same way for centuries. And there are no stories of Swords of the Morning gone bad. Closest is the Sword of the Evening, and he wasn't bad just didn't like giving up his sovereignty to the Martell's. It's pretty mystifying. I half expect that a ghostly hand reaches out of the Torrentine and grants Dawn to the next worthy knight, lol.

I guess it's possible the swords in the vision are multiples, but I feel like the idea of one sword passed down and split fits the themes of the story better. The splitting isn't the problem as I see it, the problem is one half is stolen by a usurper and corrupted with blood magic.

2. Very much like the idea of the enlisting the unruly Stark Wargs. The World Book has the passing mention of a tribe of Children who've allied with the Warg King. That the Starks put them down. As though all sorts of magics can get out of balance. And would tie in with why the Starks are singled out as protecting Winterfell and the Wall--they were in it from the beginning. 

I have plenty of garbled theories on the matter, too--that the Starks screwed up. One of them was part of the problem--like the Night's King. Was put down in Winterfell. Which is why the Starks must stay--living and dead--to protect it. Like the knight who learns and re-engages in the true way--protection of the weak. (That may have been me trying to hard to get back on track).

--Yes I am sure the Starks got in on the ground floor of Team Ice and were prominent in the Long Night war. I have a theory that, similar to dragons which are "fire made flesh," the Others that are pretty much "ice made flesh" require humans to bond with in some way. I think Craster's sons are not being turned into Others but are raised to bond with & guide Others.

So Starks may have bonded with Others or other ice elementals like the spiders or even ice dragons, making it possible for them to "hatch" and guiding them in warfare. But at some point at least some Starks decided the war had gone on long enough and that led to Brandon the Builder raising the Wall, Winterfell, and other peacekeeping measures. Destined to guard Westeros from the ice elementals they once unleashed. 

[Sly Wren]

The Lightbringer myth is specifically murder and / or impregnation. One represents death, and one life. Sometimes they appear together, when a mother dies in childbirth. That's the deal with Lightbringer - it is a sword and a torch. That's borrowed from Mithras, who holds a sword in one hand and a torch in the other. The sword = death, the torch = life. Lightbringer, the flaming sword, represents both. At least, the concept of Lightbringer does. AA's sword inverted the torch aspect, which is why it was a defilement (one reason anyway). So it's not too broad, it's specifically a pair of opposite things mixed together. But in general, yeah, you have to work hard to narrow down the main archetype.

Agreed, though I'd add that it's a specific type of life and death--engendered via violence. So, seems like one would need to be careful in applying it. 

And, with the AA version of the myth, as you say--the story seems like a dark version.

I'm sometimes suspect that "Lightbringer" per se is a lie. That that's what Mel's glamour on Stannis' sword represents: the AA myth is a lie. That's not how one gets the powerful sword of heroes. That's just how one gets power--back to #TeamAbomination (we need hats).

Which might explain the difference between a Night's King echo/hero like Stannis and the way Jon echoes the Night's King and the needed leader in the Long Night: one rejects blood sacrifice. The other won't--will do "what he must" for the power. So--the Night's King--one who was trying to gain Last Hero-like power via blood sacrifice? Trying to counterfeit it? Hmmm. I need to think about this. And now I need a thinking cap.

Sansa is making a snow fortress and snow knights. She's using frozen wood a lot to do so. I thin kthe Starks parallel the Others in many ways. So Sansa being the progenitor of House Stark is very much parallel to the NQ making Others.  If the NK was a Stark, then they were making Starks too. So I would say Sansa making Starks - snow warriors - is the nice version of the NQ making Others. They're not inverted, but one is an undead, evil form of the other more natural process.  

I take Beric being engaged to a Dayne and having a Dayne as squire as a clue that the BSE AA had a child with a Westerosi woman and founded House Dayne. A squire is a lot like a son.

On Sansa: Agreed on the bolded. And fits with what's needed against the Others--the human process, human willingness to protect each other. Even fits with Sansa's memory of Bran and Arya in the snowball fight--family, Arya's coming back to see if Sansa's hurt, all safe. As Sansa says--a pure world that she needs to be willing to step into.

On Beric: Interesting. Would this fit with Lady Barbrey's ideas re: the Daynes' being descendants of the Amethyst Empress? Or are you saying that AA's child would have been different from him by choice? 

Either way--I think our ideas on Beric are not mutually exclusive: Beric as the corrupted knight, still trying hard. We need to see Edric again (if only to make sure the kid's okay--I've had enough of child death in the novels, thank you Martin) to see his reasons fro getting away from the Brotherhood. But he was pretty stressed when Arya have her convo with him. He's seen to much re: the resurrection. Seems to reject it somewhat instinctively.

Not even sure how I managed to break your quote like this... hmm. Anyway, the NW wields fire. If they have frozen fire - which is magical in nature - then all the better. But yeah... the NW is very fiery. 1:They are parallel with the black meteors that burn red, black brothers wielding fire against the NW. When they tumble down, scarecrow cloaks ablaze, they are really acting like meteors. And the scarecrow reference create a parallel with Beric - and those are the straw NW brothers which are themselves 2. meant to represent dead NW men. I.e., the original NW was undead, and wielded fire magic. So... yeah. That is the magic of the North - dark metals to fight the cold, ya know? 

I think the black ice and red fire gives us a clue that we need to meld ice and fire, of course, which is the whole deal with uniting fire magic and old gods magic, or even Other magic and fire magic. Because remember - 3. the Others are not just ice. They have burning blue stars for eyes - that's extremely fiery. It's just blue fire. Which, incidentally, is the hottest type of fire, be it actual flame or star color.  

1. I've been reading that dream as fire (at least conventional fire) failing agains the ice-spider-like wights. The fire works against them, setting them ablaze, and Jon's more alone. Seem much less helpful than meteors.

2. I've seen the "undead" watch theory before elsewhere, and am not sold. I can see it as possible with the Night's King. That the "bound to him with sorcery" might be code for "made his own undead warriors" (like Saruman in Lord of the Rings made his own version of super-orcs).

But the magical undead vs. the real, natural living seems to be the battle. . . .I do see the "waking the sleepers" as being real--Jon's dream when he gets "further" into the crypts and the kings come out of their tombs. Like Aragorn and the oath breakers. Calling the Stark dead back to the Watch. The natural dead fighting the unnatural undead.

Staying true to that original oath (what Sam says at the Black Gate) which doesn't say anything about the duration of one's watch. Just what one "is" as a sworn brother. Which could continue in death for the Starks. 

3. Agreed re: the Others' eyes. But the way it works, it's still unnatural. Like the blood sacrifice which I think engendered their lives. Just as the dragons are unnaturally engendered by Dany. Whereas the humans at the Wall--they need to be, well, human. That seems to be the battle.

So the problem is breaking the cycle, yes. The Long Night represents night which does not give way to day, and winter which does not give way to spring. Also, death which does not give way to live - the Others and the wights. Winter, night, and death all have their place in the cycles, but only if they play their part and keep things moving. Stopping that wheel is the real evil of ASOIAF. Within that context, ice and fire both have shown us the potential for unlife, zombification, shadow, etc. So I would guess that Martin sees light and shadow with both ice and fire, or something like that. 

Amen.

[Sly Wren]

Both, but mainly the latter.  The name similarity is something that recently occurred to me.

 

I've long since concluded that Aurane will side with Aegon (though time will tell if that assumption is correct) and believe that he (and the Velaryons?) could end up as one of the formidable naval powers in the future.

Another historical parallel that I note is between Aurane Waters and Daemon Targaryen, who was crowned by Corlys Velaryon as King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea.  However, Aurane (a Velaryon bastard) has only crowned himself, more or less.

 

On the first spoiler: I agree with the alliance. Though that makes me doubt survival--I'm not at all convinced Aegon's getting to the end of the novel alive. I agree with others that he may be a plot device for Dany to fight another Dance with--to tragic consequence, seeing as he's a good kid.

On the second spoiler: agreed re: crowning himself. But if the speculation re: Aegon's fate holds, that may not bode well for Aurane. . . 

[Sly Wren]

I'm not calling it a love story, just saying the element of seduction is there for better or worse. So are you thinking Bael's encounter with the Stark maid was non-consensual? That he kidnapped/held her captive? I was just thinking that they spent the night together, he left her with sweet BS promises, she hid in the crypt to avoid being force-fed moon tea, probably regretted everything after it was too late.

Obviously that's reading a lot into a very short story, but it seems they did have a sexual encounter, which must have been either consensual (seduction) or not (kidnapping).

The above is all possible.

The problem is, we don't get the "historical account." We get Ygritte telling the story Bael wrote down and sang about his actual exploit. And we get Ygritte's commentary--which slaps a disclaimer on only one area of the story: the romance. Because she's heard them all, and they all say love. And so it's suspect to her.  And then she insists on telling the real end to the Tale--not triumph of Bael and loving maiden, but death, kinslaying, woman flinging herself from a tower, and Stark killed by Bolton.

It kind of reminds me of Nan's telling of the Night's King.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." Storm, Bran IV

 Nan corrects the gossip. Gets to the truth of the matter--which has the real warning: Starks need to be careful. Seems that's what Ygritte might be doing: the heart of the matter says the love is unknown and not that important. Bael's motive, the child, and the horrible ending--that's what matters. Why it's important to remember Starks and wildlings are blood. 

So, seems like imagining what the encounter was like isn't the point: it's the spite, the grudge, the success eventually turned into horror through kinslaying--that's the lesson.

BTW I'm not questioning that Bael's motive was to stick it to Lord Stark, and not arguing that he actually cared about the daughter beyond a means to an end.

Agreed. 

(PS I like your sandbox :-))

  Thanks for coming to play!

Now we just need a sand box emoji.

Am out of time--will get to your split sword ideas this evening!

[LmL]

Agreed, though I'd add that it's a specific type of life and death--engendered via violence. So, seems like one would need to be careful in applying it. 

And, with the AA version of the myth, as you say--the story seems like a dark version.

Yes certainly the dark version... but the myth itself also tells us about the life giving version - a woman willing to sacrifice her life to have a child, or more broadly, the sacrifice parents make to raise a child. Martin is giving us both sides in one myth.

 

I'm sometimes suspect that "Lightbringer" per se is a lie. That that's what Mel's glamour on Stannis' sword represents: the AA myth is a lie. That's not how one gets the powerful sword of heroes. That's just how one gets power--back to #TeamAbomination (we need hats).

Which might explain the difference between a Night's King echo/hero like Stannis and the way Jon echoes the Night's King and the needed leader in the Long Night: one rejects blood sacrifice. The other won't--will do "what he must" for the power. So--the Night's King--one who was trying to gain Last Hero-like power via blood sacrifice? Trying to counterfeit it? Hmmm. I need to think about this. And now I need a thinking cap.

Good observation re: glamored Lightbringer being a clue about the legend being a lie. 

As for the NK, I think we should question whether or not he was a "bad guy," as he is made out to be. If AA is the villain and not the hero... then we should question the people most vehemently described as villains. If Jon is showing us a nobler incarnation of the NK archetype - and we'll have to see what happens in the future to know - then this might be giving us clues that he wasn't all bad. Thematically, you could say that he sacrifices himself - his soul and his seed - to procreate. If you strip away the accusations of evil, that's what is left. Sacrifice and procreation are the positive side of the LB myth. 

I'm not convinced the NK was good, however - I'm just making the argument to show its one we should consider. As you said, if the incarnations of an archetype keep showing us something that cuts against the archetype, then we should question what we know of the archetype. That's what I did with AA. 

On Sansa: Agreed on the bolded. And fits with what's needed against the Others--the human process, human willingness to protect each other. Even fits with Sansa's memory of Bran and Arya in the snowball fight--family, Arya's coming back to see if Sansa's hurt, all safe. As Sansa says--a pure world that she needs to be willing to step into.

On Beric: Interesting. Would this fit with Lady Barbrey's ideas re: the Daynes' being descendants of the Amethyst Empress? Or are you saying that AA's child would have been different from him by choice? 

You keep referring to this as Lady Barbrey's idea. I love Lady Babs and she has a lot of great stuff, but this idea came from myself and Durran Durrandon. We were working closely together early last year when my theories started coming out. He connected the gemstone eyes of the kingly ghosts to the gemstones of the GEotD, and wrote the theory that Dany is the Am Empress reborn. I wrote the first theory establishing the GEotD as the Dawn Age dragonlords from Asshai and connected them to House Dayne. He first speculated that the BSE = AA, and I followed up with a long theory to prove it. To the best of my knowledge, we were the first ones on all of those ideas. Just for the record.

And yes, the idea of the Last Hero being the son of AA, or perhaps AA & NN (the Am Em) has to do with all of that. We can't know the specifics but I think that there are signs of a son of AA who went against his father in some capacity. Think of the Bael story and of the 79 sentinels. Also, Zues and Cronos. There's a Freudian term for this, the idea of the son killing the father. So that might be a thing.

 

Either way--I think our ideas on Beric are not mutually exclusive: Beric as the corrupted knight, still trying hard. We need to see Edric again (if only to make sure the kid's okay--I've had enough of child death in the novels, thank you Martin) to see his reasons fro getting away from the Brotherhood. But he was pretty stressed when Arya have her convo with him. He's seen to much re: the resurrection. Seems to reject it somewhat instinctively.

1. I've been reading that dream as fire (at least conventional fire) failing agains the ice-spider-like wights. The fire works against them, setting them ablaze, and Jon's more alone. Seem much less helpful than meteors.

2. I've seen the "undead" watch theory before elsewhere, and am not sold. I can see it as possible with the Night's King. That the "bound to him with sorcery" might be code for "made his own undead warriors" (like Saruman in Lord of the Rings made his own version of super-orcs).

But the magical undead vs. the real, natural living seems to be the battle. . . .I do see the "waking the sleepers" as being real--Jon's dream when he gets "further" into the crypts and the kings come out of their tombs. Like Aragorn and the oath breakers. Calling the Stark dead back to the Watch. The natural dead fighting the unnatural undead.

Staying true to that original oath (what Sam says at the Black Gate) which doesn't say anything about the duration of one's watch. Just what one "is" as a sworn brother. Which could continue in death for the Starks. 

3. Agreed re: the Others' eyes. But the way it works, it's still unnatural. Like the blood sacrifice which I think engendered their lives. Just as the dragons are unnaturally engendered by Dany. Whereas the humans at the Wall--they need to be, well, human. That seems to be the battle.

Amen.

Definitely the Others are unnatural, no doubt. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the idea of undead NW though. I don't know how far it goes and what it means, but there's definitely something to the idea, I would suggest. I'm looking forward to writing that one. My point though was about the combination of fire and ice. 

As for the NW, we are given many clues that they are supposed to wield flame, from Mormont saying they should have remembered to Sam's research in the annals of the NW to Old Nan's declaration that they hate the touch of iron or fire to the frozen fire used as weapons. You can't get around it - the NW wields fire. And the fire doesn't fail against the wights - no conclusion is given us. Jon simply kills everything that comes at him, friend OR foe, and he does it with a burning red sword. Then the dream ends as the world dissolves in a red mist - there is no indication that anything failed against the enemy, but rather that doing the job of defending the Wall with a fire sword is a horrific cross to bear. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

@LmL what do you think of my theory #C, that AA is child of AA&SSE, raised as son of BSE? Another point that occurs to me in favor is the nature of Dawn: only goes to a worthy knight. If this is some magical quality inherited from Original Dawn, it would apply to AE's sword before being LB'd. Maybe BSE actually could not take the sword, needed the child, the proper heir, to take it? Much as Baelish needs Sansa to take Winterfell? (If that's a goal of his?) So kid is raised as a changeling, told terrible stuff about real father, sent against him? Truly believes himself a hero?

could be another incarnation of wanting to be Arthur Dayne but becoming the Smiling Knight instead...thinks he's a hero but tricked into corruption.

[LmL]

@LmL what do you think of my theory #C, that AA is child of AA&SSE, raised as son of BSE? Another point that occurs to me in favor is the nature of Dawn: only goes to a worthy knight. If this is some magical quality inherited from Original Dawn, it would apply to AE's sword before being LB'd. Maybe BSE actually could not take the sword, needed the child, the proper heir, to take it? Much as Baelish needs Sansa to take Winterfell? (If that's a goal of his?) So kid is raised as a changeling, told terrible stuff about real father, sent against him? Truly believes himself a hero?

could be another incarnation of wanting to be Arthur Dayne but becoming the Smiling Knight instead...thinks he's a hero but tricked into corruption.

All your ideas in this regard are interesting, but it's hard for me to even have an opinion on stuff that specific. I see the echoes of arcs, but just don't have anything close to a clear picture of anything beyond AA being the BSE. But if AA had a son, he would be AA reborn, so the heroic associations of AA might just apply to his son. Basically, I'm very open minded to the various scenarios, and I mostly just read them and keep them in mind so that as I dissect various scenes are archetypes, I can spot any potential parallels. 

As for the idea of SSE, or the blue knight archetype let's say, I guess I look at the pattern in terms of greenseers turning to ice or fire. I don't have a good bead on who was related to who and how, but I feel confident that it all starts with greenseers. Azor Ahai is a fiery greenseer, and the Others, in some manner, have an origin rooted in greenseers transforming via ice magic. 

The idea of someone being raised to believe someone is their father who is not, or course Jon fits the bill, and he's an AA reborn type, so perhaps that has merit. BTW, the concept of "AA reborn" can refer to a son of an AA person, or, an AA person who has been literally resurrected. I've seen the pattern manifest both ways. That's why I can't tell if the LH is the son of AA or AA himself, in an undead / resurrected form. 

[Sly Wren]

Just remembered I never responded to this part...

--So, about Dawn and sword splitting:
Whether a split sword is "whole" depends on context of splitting I think. I suspect Blackfyre and Dark Sister are products of a split sword also. So we possibly have 3 examples:
Dawn = Just Maid/Original Ice/Dawn2 + Lightbringer
Ancestral Targaryen sword = Blackfyre + Dark Sister
Modern Ice = Oathkeeper + Widow's Wail

I think Dawn2/LB & Blackfyre/DS were separated in a spirit of love and generosity. Two worthy heirs to an ancestral sword, so both get a piece. Modern Ice, on the other hand, is split in a spiteful spirit. It's a tragedy. It would be different if, say, Ned's tenure as Hand had been largely uneventful, Arya kept training with a sword for several years, and when Ice passed to Rob he decided to have it split and give part to Arya. That would be sweet and touching rather than horrible like what Tywin did.

So even though Dawn2 was result of splitting I would consider it a whole and complete sword. It is as its original's rightful owner, the AE, intended it to be. And its sibling sword, which would become Lightbringer, was also just fine at first. But in an effort to get an edge over the sapphire knight, Azor Ahai used blood magic and probably added some sort of dark material--"bloodstone"?--to "supercharge" his half. Afterwards, Just Maid/Ice/Dawn2 appeared just as original Dawn always had--pale as milkglass--while Lightbringer became a dark sword. Perhaps indistinguishable from modern Valyrian steel. (I think Longclaw actually makes a decent possible candidate.)

Very cool. So, would you consider Jaime and Brienne's twin swords in Jaime's dream a version of the above? Jaime's floundering under his own conscience and the accusations of Arthur et al. Only Brienne's dogged knightliness gets him help. And they both have "twin" swords--his "real" family when Tywin and Cersei abandon him.

So, would this mean the swords/fighters need to work together to defeat the Others, in your opinion? Or is that too speculative?

As for Valyrian steel and the milk glass Dawn--I keep coming back to the fact that dragonglass is a natural substance. Magical, yes, but naturally produced. So, wouldn't that make it reasonable to think dragonsteel is also a naturally occurring substance? Not spell-forged like Valyrian steel, which is likely forged with blood magics. Instead, Dawn--would that milk glass, alive with light, be "dragonsteel"--naturally produced magic from the heart of a fallen star?

--Yeah, it's totally unclear how the process works. And it seems to have worked the same way for centuries. And there are no stories of Swords of the Morning gone bad. Closest is the Sword of the Evening, and he wasn't bad just didn't like giving up his sovereignty to the Martell's. It's pretty mystifying. I half expect that a ghostly hand reaches out of the Torrentine and grants Dawn to the next worthy knight, lol. 

I guess it's possible the swords in the vision are multiples, but I feel like the idea of one sword passed down and split fits the themes of the story better. The splitting isn't the problem as I see it, the problem is one half is stolen by a usurper and corrupted with blood magic. 

1. On the process--I waffle on this pretty much whenever it crosses my mind. Magical presentation? Lady of the Lake?

But, just as you mentioned Just Maid and earlier--am starting to favor the idea of presentation by a woman out of recognition of merit. Vs. stabbing through the heart. So, the story of Just Maid might be an echo of Dawn--a sword given to Galladon of "Morne" on Tarth, and island where "Evenfall" is. 

My current favorite idea: Darkstar tries to steal Dawn. Allyria gets it out--with or without Edric's help. Then gets it north to Jon. The Lady bestows the sword on the worthy one (sort of back to my OP).

2. I agree re: the multiple vs. single swords. I know it could be multiples. But, as others have suggested before me, I think it makes sense that it would be passed down. The split, as you say, would be where it went wrong.

--Yes I am sure the Starks got in on the ground floor of Team Ice and were prominent in the Long Night war. I have a theory that, similar to dragons which are "fire made flesh," the Others that are pretty much "ice made flesh" require humans to bond with in some way. I think Craster's sons are not being turned into Others but are raised to bond with & guide Others.

So Starks may have bonded with Others or other ice elementals like the spiders or even ice dragons, making it possible for them to "hatch" and guiding them in warfare. But at some point at least some Starks decided the war had gone on long enough and that led to Brandon the Builder raising the Wall, Winterfell, and other peacekeeping measures. Destined to guard Westeros from the ice elementals they once unleashed. 

Interesting re: Craster's sons. Workable--and I hadn't heard that idea before. I'm a bit more "traditional heretic" on this one: I buy that the boys are being "turned." Or used somehow.

As for the Starks' role: I'm more and more sold on the Heresy idea that the Starks doing what we're seeing in Bloodraven's cave--and that it ends up being dark. Something Bran's getting drawn into--though I think he'll fight back.

Which would explain why the lower levels of the crypts are collapsed. Why all the Starks stay there--keeping guard and atoning. Protecting from a repeat with their blood. Why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Back to the OP: the Starks learned their lesson and have held (mostly) true sense. Which would explain why they'd be willing to team up with Joramun to take out the Night's King if he tried the same thing again.

So, similar to your idea--deciding the war was too much. Had to end. Which again fits with my OP. The "true" fighter, who sticks with his/her ideals. That's what will ultimately get this done. The old tales are thus more helpful than the prophecies in knowing what to do. . . 

Am stopping my rant now.

And am once again out of time. . .. 

 

[Sly Wren]

Yes certainly the dark version... but the myth itself also tells us about the life giving version - a woman willing to sacrifice her life to have a child, or more broadly, the sacrifice parents make to raise a child. Martin is giving us both sides in one myth.

Agree with all but the bolded--seems like the "Forging of Lightbringer" story is focused on a savior child/weapon--or a twisted version of that. But more specific.

Good observation re: glamored Lightbringer being a clue about the legend being a lie. 

As for the NK, I think we should question whether or not he was a "bad guy," as he is made out to be. If AA is the villain and not the hero... then we should question the people most vehemently described as villains. If Jon is showing us a nobler incarnation of the NK archetype - and we'll have to see what happens in the future to know - then this might be giving us clues that he wasn't all bad. Thematically, you could say that he sacrifices himself - his soul and his seed - to procreate. If you strip away the accusations of evil, that's what is left. Sacrifice and procreation are the positive side of the LB myth. 

I'm not convinced the NK was good, however - I'm just making the argument to show its one we should consider. As you said, if the incarnations of an archetype keep showing us something that cuts against the archetype, then we should question what we know of the archetype. That's what I did with AA.

I agree that the idea of the Night King's "evil-osity meter" may be relative "It's all in where you are standing."

But we may be seeing that in Stannis--trying to do what he seems to fully believe is right (wisdom of those beliefs to be determined). And thus willing to engage with Mel to bring that about. Being seduced by her vision as it serves his.

The magics that the NK engaged in seem to have changed him (day one way, night another way). As opposed to "staying true" to original ideals. Like Davos' objections to sacrificing Edric. Stannis is violating at least what Davos sees as "right."

And the twisted version of that is Jon--what he's doing isn't about magics (at least not yet). Just protecting "the realms of men." And the Watch fails to see it. So, Jon enters the myth because of others' interp of him. vs. his own action? Hmm. . . 

The question of keeping and breaking oaths. What makes one "true"--Martin seems to love that question--in all of the characters and myths and recurring stories.

You keep referring to this as Lady Barbrey's idea. I love Lady Babs and she has a lot of great stuff, but this idea came from myself and Durran Durrandon. We were working closely together early last year when my theories started coming out. He connected the gemstone eyes of the kingly ghosts to the gemstones of the GEotD, and wrote the theory that Dany is the Am Empress reborn. I wrote the first theory establishing the GEotD as the Dawn Age dragonlords from Asshai and connected them to House Dayne. He first speculated that the BSE = AA, and I followed up with a long theory to prove it. To the best of my knowledge, we were the first ones on all of those ideas. Just for the record.

And yes, the idea of the Last Hero being the son of AA, or perhaps AA & NN (the Am Em) has to do with all of that. We can't know the specifics but I think that there are signs of a son of AA who went against his father in some capacity. Think of the Bael story and of the 79 sentinels. Also, Zues and Cronos. There's a Freudian term for this, the idea of the son killing the father. So that might be a thing. 

Whoops!

I think I've conflated the arguments--the above with Lady Barbrey's Purple sails stuff. My apologies to you and Durran Durrandon.

And yes--the bolded might be a thing. But given the stories about the horrors of kinslaying (like the "real" end to Bael), I have a hard time seeing how the Last Hero could have ended at all well. . . though we don't know the ending. Still, given the badness that happens to kinslayers (am worried about Tyrion), seems like defying the father is one thing (Rhaegar, Jaime, Theon). Killing? That's something else.

Definitely the Others are unnatural, no doubt. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the idea of undead NW though. I don't know how far it goes and what it means, but there's definitely something to the idea, I would suggest. I'm looking forward to writing that one. My point though was about the combination of fire and ice. 

For my money, if there is an undead Watch, it's the natural dead. "The horn that wakes the sleepers." Jon's dream that e's had for years only finally taking him further into the crypts AFTER he's gone to the Wall. And then the tombs open, and out come the dead kings.

The version of the oath Sam gives to get through the Wall has no mention of how long the oath lasts. Just what one becomes/is as a member of the Watch. As Kingmonkey has pointed out elsewhere, that oath reads like Celtic inscriptions on weapons. 

So, the idea that the Stark dead are waiting . . . Ans Ned tells Robert, there are graves all over the north. Like the Barrowlands. The idea of the sleepers waking and going the Watch--the natural dead to fight the unnatural undead--that makes a lot of sense to me.

As for the NW, we are given many clues that they are supposed to wield flame, from Mormont saying they should have remembered to Sam's research in the annals of the NW to Old Nan's declaration that they hate the touch of iron or fire to the frozen fire used as weapons. You can't get around it - the NW wields fire. And the fire doesn't fail against the wights - no conclusion is given us. Jon simply kills everything that comes at him, friend OR foe, and he does it with a burning red sword. Then the dream ends as the world dissolves in a red mist - there is no indication that anything failed against the enemy, but rather that doing the job of defending the Wall with a fire sword is a horrific cross to bear. 

On the first bolded--wield flame against the wights--yes. And as you say, the dream gets interrupted. But before that--the men are falling, burning. And he's calling for flame, but there is no one there to do so. They've all abandoned him--and instead are falling to the "burning shafts" rising from below--catching the men on fire and they fall like burning scarecrows. Just sounds like the "fight with fire" part is NOT going well.

And yes--Jon fighting alone is a horrific cross to bear. Which is why he may need the "sleepers" to wake. The true knights/sworn brothers of old, a "shining example to the world"--come back and fight with he who wields the sword, now that the current Watch has fallen.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Very cool. So, would you consider Jaime and Brienne's twin swords in Jaime's dream a version of the above? Jaime's floundering under his own conscience and the accusations of Arthur et al. Only Brienne's dogged knightliness gets him help. And they both have "twin" swords--his "real" family when Tywin and Cersei abandon him.

--Jaime's dream is really tricky. There are twin swords, but...ok, so where I'm at right now is seeing this part of the dream framing Jaime as the SSE. He has a glowing blue sword and is exiled from his twin sister. Then Brienne shows up. And if anyone is the SSE reborn then it's Brienne, other than not being a twin you couldn't ask for a closer analog. So I tend to see the both of them as complementary aspects of the SSE in this dream--Jaime providing the twin/exile aspect, Brienne providing the true knight aspect. So the two swords we see are really one sword because both characters are playing the same person. But yeah I guess in a broader aspect that's still a theme of a split sword, Jaime has one given to him by his father (Tywin: "I gave you a sword"), then another worthy swordsperson shows up and the sword becomes two swords. And in a certain way Brienne is also playing Jaime's sister, as she's framed as a replacement for Cercei. So, father bestows a sword, then siblings each have a sword.

TL;DR: Yes, lol.

(Fever dreams are soooo complicated...)

So, would this mean the swords/fighters need to work together to defeat the Others, in your opinion? Or is that too speculative?

--I'm not totally sure that defeating the Others is the endgame, actually. I see war/conflict as the problem, peace as the solution/endgame. I expect some fire magic will be done north of the wall, and that will provoke the Others as being a treaty violation. Or someone will destroy the wall thinking to use Others against some other enemy. So not so much that the swords need to work together to defeat a mutual enemy, more that the swords need to not fight each other.

As for Valyrian steel and the milk glass Dawn--I keep coming back to the fact that dragonglass is a natural substance. Magical, yes, but naturally produced. So, wouldn't that make it reasonable to think dragonsteel is also a naturally occurring substance? Not spell-forged like Valyrian steel, which is likely forged with blood magics. Instead, Dawn--would that milk glass, alive with light, be "dragonsteel"--naturally produced magic from the heart of a fallen star?

--Maybe. I haven't given a lot of thought to the physical composition of Dawn. Made of magical meteorite, yes, other than that, I'm pretty open to ideas. @LmL mentioned that RL milkglass is made by mixing bone dust with glass; pulverized weirwood would surely be similar to bone dust, physically and symbolically. Perhaps dragonglass+pulverized weirwood = Dawn. 

1. On the process--I waffle on this pretty much whenever it crosses my mind. Magical presentation? Lady of the Lake?

But, just as you mentioned Just Maid and earlier--am starting to favor the idea of presentation by a woman out of recognition of merit. Vs. stabbing through the heart. So, the story of Just Maid might be an echo of Dawn--a sword given to Galladon of "Morne" on Tarth, and island where "Evenfall" is. 

--And then an interesting inversion with Jaime presenting Oathkeeper to Brienne. :-)

My current favorite idea: Darkstar tries to steal Dawn. Allyria gets it out--with or without Edric's help. Then gets it north to Jon. The Lady bestows the sword on the worthy one (sort of back to my OP).

--That would be fun. I tend to see Dany as the recipient of Dawn, though. Perhaps Edric presents it to her--he does have a history of pulling significant things out of the water. :-)

2. I agree re: the multiple vs. single swords. I know it could be multiples. But, as others have suggested before me, I think it makes sense that it would be passed down. The split, as you say, would be where it went wrong.

--This is really pedantic, but...not the split, but the corruption of one of the halves. Split itself is OK if done by the rightful owner for pure motives i.e. giving half to a worthy sibling.

Interesting re: Craster's sons. Workable--and I hadn't heard that idea before. I'm a bit more "traditional heretic" on this one: I buy that the boys are being "turned." Or used somehow.

As for the Starks' role: I'm more and more sold on the Heresy idea that the Starks doing what we're seeing in Bloodraven's cave--and that it ends up being dark. Something Bran's getting drawn into--though I think he'll fight back.

--To me Arya and Bran are very parallel and are really the Starkiest of the Starks. Both are forced to flee, go on dangerous circuitous journeys, and have the strongest CotF associations. Bran with his greenseer abilities and Arya with her frequent strong associations with various animals + hardcore tree climbing skills. Notably those two have made the most progress as wargs, the only ones who have skinchanged on purpose. And, notably, both have very dark mentors at the moment. I agree both will need to fight back against what they're being drawn into. Hopefully neither will go full DarkStark.

Which would explain why the lower levels of the crypts are collapsed. Why all the Starks stay there--keeping guard and atoning. Protecting from a repeat with their blood. Why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Back to the OP: the Starks learned their lesson and have held (mostly) true sense. Which would explain why they'd be willing to team up with Joramun to take out the Night's King if he tried the same thing again.

So, similar to your idea--deciding the war was too much. Had to end. Which again fits with my OP. The "true" fighter, who sticks with his/her ideals. That's what will ultimately get this done. The old tales are thus more helpful than the prophecies in knowing what to do. . . 

Am stopping my rant now.

And am once again out of time. . .. 

 

[LmL]

 

Whoops!

I think I've conflated the arguments--the above with Lady Barbrey's Purple sails stuff. My apologies to you and Durran Durrandon.

 

No worries, and yes, Lady Babs noticed the purple sails thing, and she also did some kind of elaborate decoding of the Yi Ti dynasties which seemed to mirror the dynasties of Westeros going back to the Dawn Age and extending into the future - it was really wild, but strangely accurate in places. Not sure if that was a corn code thing or what, but it was cool. 

And yes--the bolded might be a thing. But given the stories about the horrors of kinslaying (like the "real" end to Bael), I have a hard time seeing how the Last Hero could have ended at all well. . . though we don't know the ending. Still, given the badness that happens to kinslayers (am worried about Tyrion), seems like defying the father is one thing (Rhaegar, Jaime, Theon). Killing? That's something else.

I don't think it ended well for the Last Hero either. His theme seems to be sacrifice. Think about it though - in order to journey into the cold lands and face the Others - to fight, or negotiate, or whatever - SOMEBODY has to volunteer to be killed, then resurrected. To become a Coldhands. Possibly, all 13 of his party made that sacrifice. It's pretty horrific. But effective. Whenever I find the "Last Hero math," as I call it, the 12 + 1 pattern, it's always associated with dead things or half-dead things. I think this is the deal. 

For my money, if there is an undead Watch, it's the natural dead. "The horn that wakes the sleepers." Jon's dream that e's had for years only finally taking him further into the crypts AFTER he's gone to the Wall. And then the tombs open, and out come the dead kings.

The version of the oath Sam gives to get through the Wall has no mention of how long the oath lasts. Just what one becomes/is as a member of the Watch. As Kingmonkey has pointed out elsewhere, that oath reads like Celtic inscriptions on weapons. 

So, the idea that the Stark dead are waiting . . . Ans Ned tells Robert, there are graves all over the north. Like the Barrowlands. The idea of the sleepers waking and going the Watch--the natural dead to fight the unnatural undead--that makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm confused with how you perceive ANY walking dead as natural. I don't agree with that. Any type of resurrection, any type of cheating death, will be unnatural. I agree with the idea of the Stark dead rising from the ground - I like that one a lot actually - and that they might be a different class of undead. But I don't think they will be somehow more natural undead... I mean, are you saying they might be an army of Berics instead of wights which seem to be remote controlled? I guess that's "nicer," in a sense, but it's still cheating death and violating nature. Interesting to speculate on, though, and I do think greenseers can raise the dead. What I wonder is what it will cost a greenseer to do so...

On the first bolded--wield flame against the wights--yes. And as you say, the dream gets interrupted. But before that--the men are falling, burning. And he's calling for flame, but there is no one there to do so. They've all abandoned him--and instead are falling to the "burning shafts" rising from below--catching the men on fire and they fall like burning scarecrows. Just sounds like the "fight with fire" part is NOT going well.

I think that's just because the dream is supposed to be a nightmare. Jon is kind of winning - he's "sending everything back down to die again," something like that. In any case, the point is the consistent association between the NW and fire, between fighting Others and fire. 

And yes--Jon fighting alone is a horrific cross to bear. Which is why he may need the "sleepers" to wake. The true knights/sworn brothers of old, a "shining example to the world"--come back and fight with he who wields the sword, now that the current Watch has fallen.

Yeah I think this is going to be a true freak show at the end. I hope a bunch of people hate it. Fuck em. Bring on the armies of the undead. 

[LmL]

--Maybe. I haven't given a lot of thought to the physical composition of Dawn. Made of magical meteorite, yes, other than that, I'm pretty open to ideas. @LmL mentioned that RL milkglass is made by mixing bone dust with glass; pulverized weirwood would surely be similar to bone dust, physically and symbolically. Perhaps dragonglass+pulverized weirwood = Dawn. 

I'm starting to think it's something like that - a combination of elements, with some part of weirwood pale stone in there. I'm thinking the pale stone of the Dawn meteor with some pale stone of a weirwood / petrified weirwood, or burned weirwood ash. Something like that. There are so many instances of people using wooden swords, tourney swords, Arya's tree branch swords, etc... I think it's a thing and I think there has to be some kind of tree sword, somewhere. A couple months ago I though of the pale stone of a petrified heart tree as potentially being connected to the pale stone of Dawn somehow, thinking in terms of Dawn as the original Ice. The symbolism between weirwoods, Others, and Dawn is fairly similar. I like the weirwood face that is the Black Gate which is not black - it's pale, alive, and glows with feint light that is like moonlight and milk. Anyway. I think there's something here. 

--And then an interesting inversion with Jaime presenting Oathkeeper to Brienne. :-)

Great observation. I've been thinking about that scene lately - they are in a tower called the white sword tower, and Jaime thinks of Arthur Dayne and Dawn up in that tower, an calls it "the white sword." There's also a big white weirwood table - meaning dead weirwood, on the way to petrification - inside the white sword tower. Does that mien there is weirwood inside the white sword? Maybe, right? And then Jaime pulls the blood and black sword Oathkeeper from underneath the black wooden chair, giving us a total inversion of white wood and a white sword. I've been interpreting black wood chairs - which are plentiful, and strategically placed - as an inversion of greenseer magic. Black stags and black wood, both - I think they represent undead greenseers, or greenseers which break the rules by raising the dead. Azor Ahai, IMO, was both of those things. That's why those who die fighting in his cause will be reborn. Reborn, yes - as zombies, ha ha ha suckers. That's our Bloodstone Emperor, who practices necromancy.  So that's my take on the black chair and the black sword. When something or someone emerges from "beneath the tree" or "beneath the wood" I think it refers to greenseers, who sit under trees. So Oathkeeper, which is a Lightbringer symbol, comes from beneath the black wooden chair, I see that as meaning that undead greenseers were involved in making it, which is Azor Ahai of course. I suppose that means the white weirwood table could simply indicate that greenseers were involved in making Dawn, but I prefer the idea of pale stone tree swords in some fashion. 

What's your take on all of that? I really like the catch on the invasion of the Galladon story - I think you're right about that. Very cool. What does it mean though, I wonder?  

--That would be fun. I tend to see Dany as the recipient of Dawn, though. Perhaps Edric presents it to her--he does have a history of pulling significant things out of the water. :-)

I have thought about Dany getting Dawn too. It only makes sense if the true value and purpose of Dawn is magical, not as a sword to swing at people. Perhaps it's like the uber-glass candle. I like this idea a lot, myself. If Dawn is fro the GEotD, then it seems like Dany should get it. If it's original Ice, then Jon should get it. But it could be both - there are several overlapping scenarios here. 

Oh, that's interesting, Edric pulling AA reborn out of the water. When I say "AA reborn," I mean anyone playing that archetypal role, not that Beric is literally AA reborn in the sense that Jon and Dany clearly are. But the pattern is that AA reborn is reborn in the sea, according to Stannis one time. Thing is, AA reborn and Lightbringer are really the same thing, two parts of a whole, or two different ways of symbolizing the same thing. When Stannis thrusts his fake LB into the wet sand on Dragonstone, it's picked up by two younger lads who I think play the role od Eldric Shadowchaser, just as Edric Dayne does. One is Davos's son, who "chases the shadows" by lighting fires in ADWD just like his daddy does in ASOS.  The other is Bryen Farring - and all I am going to say is take a look at his house sigil:

Egads!! What's that? A sword of the morning vs the sword of the evening?  

So as you can see, Eldric the son of AA seems to be the one who picks up LB from the water, after it crashes to earth and lands in the sea - that's our sea dragon moon meteor we are talking about. 

The thing is... the son of AA and a resurrected AA are BOTH different forms of "AA reborn." So WTF. But clearly, there is some connection to House Dayne here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Also, Vorian Dayne, the "Sword of the Evening," was sent to the Wall by Nymeria, so we have a precedent for a Dayne associated with evening going north the the Wall. Presumably, that's our Last Hero Dayne going north. 

[Isobel Harper]

On the first spoiler: I agree with the alliance. Though that makes me doubt survival--I'm not at all convinced Aegon's getting to the end of the novel alive. I agree with others that he may be a plot device for Dany to fight another Dance with--to tragic consequence, seeing as he's a good kid.

On the second spoiler: agreed re: crowning himself. But if the speculation re: Aegon's fate holds, that may not bode well for Aurane. . . 

Aegon might not make it to the end of the story (or he might...), but there will be lots of material in between the beginning of Winds and and the end of Dream, and Aegon can still leave a huge impact on the story.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

 

I'm starting to think it's something like that - a combination of elements, with some part of weirwood pale stone in there. I'm thinking the pale stone of the Dawn meteor with some pale stone of a weirwood / petrified weirwood, or burned weirwood ash. Something like that. There are so many instances of people using wooden swords, tourney swords, Arya's tree branch swords, etc... I think it's a thing and I think there has to be some kind of tree sword, somewhere. A couple months ago I though of the pale stone of a petrified heart tree as potentially being connected to the pale stone of Dawn somehow, thinking in terms of Dawn as the original Ice. The symbolism between weirwoods, Others, and Dawn is fairly similar. I like the weirwood face that is the Black Gate which is not black - it's pale, alive, and glows with feint light that is like moonlight and milk. Anyway. I think there's something here. 

Yeah, Dawn containing weirwood makes sense on a lot of levels.

Great observation. I've been thinking about that scene lately - they are in a tower called the white sword tower, and Jaime thinks of Arthur Dayne and Dawn up in that tower, an calls it "the white sword." There's also a big white weirwood table - meaning dead weirwood, on the way to petrification - inside the white sword tower. Does that mien there is weirwood inside the white sword? Maybe, right? And then Jaime pulls the blood and black sword Oathkeeper from underneath the black wooden chair, giving us a total inversion of white wood and a white sword. I've been interpreting black wood chairs - which are plentiful, and strategically placed - as an inversion of greenseer magic. Black stags and black wood, both - I think they represent undead greenseers, or greenseers which break the rules by raising the dead.

You know, this slipped my mind till just now, but I think black wood in general--not just chairs but doors and whatever else--is always rather suspicious as possibly being anti-weirwood. The black trees with blue leaves in Qarth. Someone on a thread was calling them Shade trees, which is a good name I think.

So, the doors in the HotU, the doors of HoBaW, the doors on Tobo Mott's workshop--supposedly weirwood and ebony. But...really? Ebony? I doubt it. More likely Shade tree wood, IMO. I quite suspect this is the story behind your black chair pattern as well. Especially in this scene, that would give us a weirwood table with Shade wood chairs. Black and white, death and life--or undeath and natural afterlife? Perhaps Shade wood chairs are a counterpoint to the weirwood root seats of Beric and Bloodraven. (I haven't looked at chair symbolism specifically. Is there a weirwood throne somewhere?)

Shade wood perhaps went into making Lightbringer?

And I think "undead greenseers" is damn likely to be what the Undying were, now that you bring up that topic.

Azor Ahai, IMO, was both of those things. That's why those who die fighting in his cause will be reborn. Reborn, yes - as zombies, ha ha ha suckers. That's our Bloodstone Emperor, who practices necromancy.  So that's my take on the black chair and the black sword. When something or someone emerges from "beneath the tree" or "beneath the wood" I think it refers to greenseers, who sit under trees. So Oathkeeper, which is a Lightbringer symbol, comes from beneath the black wooden chair, I see that as meaning that undead greenseers were involved in making it, which is Azor Ahai of course. I suppose that means the white weirwood table could simply indicate that greenseers were involved in making Dawn, but I prefer the idea of pale stone tree swords in some fashion. 

Yeah. Greenseers and weirwoods go together, likely Shade trees and undead greenseers go together as well.

What's your take on all of that? I really like the catch on the invasion of the Galladon story - I think you're right about that. Very cool. What does it mean though, I wonder?  

As for what the inversion means, I think it's largely to show the gender flexibility of these archetypal roles. Brienne is the sapphire knight, and Jaime in his KG whites is for a time being framed as the Maid bestowing the sword. White=maidenly purity, and as KG Jaime is supposed to be chaste. And notably he's doing this out of some form of love and he's also recognizing her as worthy, sending her on a mission he's unable to take on b/c of his social position.

Even more specifically Jaime is briefly taking on the roll of the Amethyst Empress: giving the sapphire knight a sword of his own inheritance, sending her far away partly because she can't stay for political reasons, partly because the true depth of their (emotional) relationship would be scandalous if known. And in many ways Brienne is a surrogate Cercei to Jaime, so the two of them also symbolically play the roles of the lover/twins at least from Jaime's POV.

So yeah. I'm not sure how worried to be about their encounter with unCat, given all of this symbolism. :-(

 

I have thought about Dany getting Dawn too. It only makes sense if the true value and purpose of Dawn is magical, not as a sword to swing at people. Perhaps it's like the uber-glass candle. I like this idea a lot, myself. If Dawn is fro the GEotD, then it seems like Dany should get it. If it's original Ice, then Jon should get it. But it could be both - there are several overlapping scenarios here. 

And if both Dawn and Longclaw are from Dawnia, one ex-Ice and one ex-LB, both ex-Original Dawn. then Dany/AE having Dawn and her brother (cough, sorry) *male relative* having Longclaw could be not only significant but hopeful. Fire figure has Ice and ice figure has LB. Could bode well for eventual understanding between the two sides, balance, true resolution to ancient blood betrayal BS.

Oh, that's interesting, Edric pulling AA reborn out of the water. When I say "AA reborn," I mean anyone playing that archetypal role, not that Beric is literally AA reborn in the sense that Jon and Dany clearly are.

Right, gotcha. Lots of archetypal reenactors at various points.

But the pattern is that AA reborn is reborn in the sea, according to Stannis one time.

--I've totally missed that, do you have a chapter reference I can look at? Sounds important.

Thing is, AA reborn and Lightbringer are really the same thing, two parts of a whole, or two different ways of symbolizing the same thing. When Stannis thrusts his fake LB into the wet sand on Dragonstone, it's picked up by two younger lads who I think play the role of Eldric Shadowchaser, just as Edric Dayne does. One is Davos's son, who "chases the shadows" by lighting fires in ADWD just like his daddy does in ASOS.  The other is Bryen Farring - and all I am going to say is take a look at his house sigil:

Egads!! What's that? A sword of the morning vs the sword of the evening?  

WOAH WTF!!!

And I thought I was being clever sussing out House Brax and fAegon's master of whisperers as "secret purples". Damn, good catch!

So basically we have twin figures, twin swords, one purple and one icy white. You say sword of morning/evening, I say Amethyst Empress and sapphire knight. :-)

(Which PS if you are soon to be pitted against the AE reborn it does not bode well that your master of whisperers dresses all in purple and has an amethyst earring--just sain'.)

So as you can see, Eldric the son of AA seems to be the one who picks up LB from the water, after it crashes to earth and lands in the sea - that's our sea dragon moon meteor we are talking about. 

Hm, ok...I really haven't gotten past AA in terms of the generations of archetypal figures. I have no ideas about AA's descendants. I'll have to mull that over.

I just looked up House Farring...I wonder if it's significant that Bryen died of cold on the march to Winterfell? Showing that he's more "of fire" in some way?

The thing is... the son of AA and a resurrected AA are BOTH different forms of "AA reborn." So WTF. But clearly, there is some connection to House Dayne here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Also, Vorian Dayne, the "Sword of the Evening," was sent to the Wall by Nymeria, so we have a precedent for a Dayne associated with evening going north the the Wall. Presumably, that's our Last Hero Dayne going north. 

Not just a Dayne going north, but going north at the end of a losing war with companions. Half-dozen total rather than 12+1, but hey. I don't have a lot of firm thoughts on the Last Hero but a Dayne makes as much sense as anyone. The fact that they took their sword back and went as far away from Team Ice HQ as possible after the war does make it look like they were Team "Eff this Noise" by the end, which makes sense with Last Hero motivations.

So you're thinking a Dayne LH was the son of AA? Hm. That could make sense with my stuff.

AE____SSE

       |

     AA (changeling "son" of BSE)

      |

LH/Daynes

Yeah I'd say that makes sense. Daynes are no Valyrians, mix freely with First Men so get a mix of coloring.

I'm not sure how much time we're talking about here though. Like would a baby born on the night of the Blood Betrayal have time to grow up and have his own kid(s)? I guess yes if the Long Night lasted a generation.

So that would be like 15-20 years between Blood Betrayal and war coming to Westeros (AA killing Garth)...not sure when AA would have time to get down to babymaking during a war but I guess Robb managed it, so. I guess if AA and LH are both quite young when they do their deeds, that's a total time frame of 30-40 years, which is about a generation.

So...yeah. I'll sign off on Last Hero Dayne.

Actually makes more sense than a Stark being the Last Hero, because in that case why would the Others target him...he would have "ice" blood in his veins, not "hot blood" that draws the Others. Others don't seem to target Starks. But Daynes and "purples" in general seem to be more "of fire" and would thus be targets, as per the LH story.

[superunknown5]

Hey Sly Wren, I'm busy but always lurking. I really enjoy your Jaime-Rhaegar echoes.

I thought of another. Before she was with Jaime, Cersei was madly in love with Rhaegar. She "settled" for Jaime only after Aerys broke her betrothal to the Dragon Prince. So, Jaime was sort of a poor man's Rhaegar in Cersei's eyes lol.

[Sly Wren]

 

--Jaime's dream is really tricky. There are twin swords, but...ok, so where I'm at right now is seeing this part of the dream framing Jaime as the SSE. He has a glowing blue sword and is exiled from his twin sister. Then Brienne shows up. And if anyone is the SSE reborn then it's Brienne, other than not being a twin you couldn't ask for a closer analog. So I tend to see the both of them as complementary aspects of the SSE in this dream--Jaime providing the twin/exile aspect, Brienne providing the true knight aspect. So the two swords we see are really one sword because both characters are playing the same person. But yeah I guess in a broader aspect that's still a theme of a split sword, Jaime has one given to him by his father (Tywin: "I gave you a sword"), then another worthy swordsperson shows up and the sword becomes two swords. And in a certain way Brienne is also playing Jaime's sister, as she's framed as a replacement for Cercei. So, father bestows a sword, then siblings each have a sword. 

TL;DR: Yes, lol.

(Fever dreams are soooo complicated...)

Yes--Jaime and Brienne are a united entity at this point. Jaime's family has turned out useless. Even in his home, under the Rock, there is only doom. And he's left to face his white brothers.

That unity. . . reminds me again of Rhaegar and Arthur. Barristan's and others' comments about how close they were. Arthur's work with the kingswood brotherhood; Rhaegar's attempts to reform the power structure. And Rhaegar's family not at ALL satisfactory with his father. Even as he tries to please his father/keep him steady. I wonder what the two of them might have accomplished were it not for that war. And we see the effect Brienne's idealism has on Jaime in the face of dealing with his father and sister.

--I'm not totally sure that defeating the Others is the endgame, actually. I see war/conflict as the problem, peace as the solution/endgame. I expect some fire magic will be done north of the wall, and that will provoke the Others as being a treaty violation. Or someone will destroy the wall thinking to use Others against some other enemy. So not so much that the swords need to work together to defeat a mutual enemy, more that the swords need to not fight each other. 

Agreed re: the conflict is the problem. I'm currently well-persuaded by @Black Crow's theory of the Children or a faction of the Children with a human greenseer as using the Others as a weapon. 

So, if the solution is not conflict, is the answer pact?

--Maybe. I haven't given a lot of thought to the physical composition of Dawn. Made of magical meteorite, yes, other than that, I'm pretty open to ideas. @LmL mentioned that RL milkglass is made by mixing bone dust with glass; pulverized weirwood would surely be similar to bone dust, physically and symbolically. Perhaps dragonglass+pulverized weirwood = Dawn.

 

 

--And then an interesting inversion with Jaime presenting Oathkeeper to Brienne. :-)

--That would be fun. I tend to see Dany as the recipient of Dawn, though. Perhaps Edric presents it to her--he does have a history of pulling significant things out of the water. :-)

--This is really pedantic, but...not the split, but the corruption of one of the halves. Split itself is OK if done by the rightful owner for pure motives i.e. giving half to a worthy sibling. 

1. Yup!! Those two do have some interesting gender inversions at times.  . 

2. Are you thinking Dany is part Dayne? Will end up as a fighter? She really seems like she's embracing fire and blood. Has already embraced blood sacrifice.  I'm thinking more and more that she may not be able to come back from that. And now that she seems set to pick up a horde--"Governance by Horde" doesn't sound, well, sound.

3. Ahh! Thanks for the correction. And I like it. Even ties in with the themes of the importance of unity and NOT kinslaying. If one side is corrupted, the "sword" can't function properly, yes? And balance is shot?

--To me Arya and Bran are very parallel and are really the Starkiest of the Starks. Both are forced to flee, go on dangerous circuitous journeys, and have the strongest CotF associations. Bran with his greenseer abilities and Arya with her frequent strong associations with various animals + hardcore tree climbing skills. Notably those two have made the most progress as wargs, the only ones who have skinchanged on purpose. And, notably, both have very dark mentors at the moment. I agree both will need to fight back against what they're being drawn into. Hopefully neither will go full DarkStark.

Amen--both are in underworld type places. Communing with the dead. And, as for going fully dark--really think their family ties are their best chance here. Their identity as Starks. 

[Sly Wren]

 

No worries, and yes, Lady Babs noticed the purple sails thing, and she also did some kind of elaborate decoding of the Yi Ti dynasties which seemed to mirror the dynasties of Westeros going back to the Dawn Age and extending into the future - it was really wild, but strangely accurate in places. Not sure if that was a corn code thing or what, but it was cool. 

1. 

2. Yes--I will be happy to see @Lady Barbrey when she can come back. I'm not sure I buy all of her ideas, but they are amazing.  

I don't think it ended well for the Last Hero either. His theme seems to be sacrifice. Think about it though - in order to journey into the cold lands and face the Others - to fight, or negotiate, or whatever - SOMEBODY has to volunteer to be killed, then resurrected. To become a Coldhands. Possibly, all 13 of his party made that sacrifice. It's pretty horrific. But effective. Whenever I find the "Last Hero math," as I call it, the 12 + 1 pattern, it's always associated with dead things or half-dead things. I think this is the deal.

Self-sacrifice may be key, yes. We've seen a bit of it with Jon. And I am far too worried about Bran for it to be reasonable (kid's fictional. My brain really should know that. *sigh*).

But seems there's a big difference between self-sacrifice and kinslaying.

I've seen the need for Coldhands-y figure from you and others. Not yet sold on it. But I do see at least some of the logic to it.

I'm confused with how you perceive ANY walking dead as natural. I don't agree with that. Any type of resurrection, any type of cheating death, will be unnatural. I agree with the idea of the Stark dead rising from the ground - I like that one a lot actually - and that they might be a different class of undead. But I don't think they will be somehow more natural undead... I mean, are you saying they might be an army of Berics instead of wights which seem to be remote controlled? I guess that's "nicer," in a sense, but it's still cheating death and violating nature. Interesting to speculate on, though, and I do think greenseers can raise the dead. What I wonder is what it will cost a greenseer to do so...

Wait. . . so, you can't see dead people? 

Have you tried glasses? Ouija board? Aura cleansing? Or just a good palm reading?

Let me clarify: the Stark dead rising like Tolkien's Dead Men of Dunharrow--I think it would be tied to the "frozen hell reserved for Starks." Tied to why the Starks are there in Winterfell in that crypt with the statues: they swore an oath to wait. Perhaps in penance for what some Starks have done (Night's King, etc.). So, I'm not sure if they'd rise like mindless wights (unnatural) or like shades--still themselves. Shades. Not unlike Ned's shade appearing to Rickon.

I'm thinking there's a chance (crackpot alert!) that this is the natural state of death for Starks--the frozen hell. Waiting. Now, could they rest after the final battle? Maybe. But their rising would be part of their oath and the past. Vs. the wights being raised with no will of their own (that we can see so far); raised for someone else's purpose.

I think that's just because the dream is supposed to be a nightmare. Jon is kind of winning - he's "sending everything back down to die again," something like that. In any case, the point is the consistent association between the NW and fire, between fighting Others and fire. 

Yeah I think this is going to be a true freak show at the end. I hope a bunch of people hate it. Fuck em. Bring on the armies of the undead. 

Agreed that he's winning so far--though the past is coming back at him. Still, given how the dream seems to go in retrograde from battle for the Wall to Battle with Wights (I think it's the Battle for the Dawn), the fact that there are no other men to help him and that the men are instead falling, burning from arrows from below--seems like fire isn't enough.  They need Dawn (you knew that was coming).

I agree that the NW use fire to prevent wights. And to fight individual wights. But against the Others? To bring back the day? Seems like they will really need more. In their oath, fire's only one piece.

On the last: