From Death to Dawn #3: Sansa, Lyanna, Jaime, Rhaegar, and the Search for One True Knight

[Sly Wren]

Aegon might not make it to the end of the story (or he might...), but there will be lots of material in between the beginning of Winds and and the end of Dream, and Aegon can still leave a huge impact on the story.

I agree on Aegon's potential impact--especially on the question of Dany's potential reign (which I think is likely to fail). And if Aegon is her kin and she kills him--"the gods hate kinslayers." 

So--agreed.

[Sly Wren]

Hey Sly Wren, I'm busy but always lurking. I really enjoy your Jaime-Rhaegar echoes.

I thought of another. Before she was with Jaime, Cersei was madly in love with Rhaegar. She "settled" for Jaime only after Aerys broke her betrothal to the Dragon Prince. So, Jaime was sort of a poor man's Rhaegar in Cersei's eyes lol.

Hey, @super! Good to see you! And .

I'd forgotten that Cersei fact: 

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. Long streamers of red and gold and orange silk had floated behind his helm, like flames. Two of her uncles fell before his lance, along with a dozen of her father's finest jousters, the flower of the west. By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I'll be the queen. Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney. "You must be especially beautiful," Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, "for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed." Feast, Cersei V

Jaime isn't the man Cersei wants. He's not the son his father wants--he wants to be a knight, not the ruler of the Rock.  Given Rhaegar's sketchy relationship with his father (vs. his mother)--seems like the echo (not parallel, echo) has some traction.

And your comment reminded me (because the above quote comes before a mention of it) of another way Cersei echoes Aerys. The wildfire would have gotten it done. But Martin seems to have been less subtle in Feast and Dance. And in Feast, not only does Cersei embrace paranoid rule supported by toadies as well as a love for wildfire--we also learn about her "prophecy" re: her marriage. From Maggy the Frog, who seems at least as odd as the Ghost of High Heart,. 

Any way you slice it, in Feast, Martin is practically screaming that the Lannisters echo the Targs. Just in case we didn't pick it up in the earlier books. 

[Anath]

Impressive work, Sly Wren!

If we're to go about Jaime/Rhaegar echoes, should we perhaps have a look at Jaime's journey back to King's Landing? All the time, he's in a hurry to go back to his family, or at least those members of it he holds dear but he still takes the time to take care of the lady knight when he feels she needs it. And when he arrives, Joffrey is dead and Cersei tells him he should have come earlier. Perhaps an echo of Rhaegar who might have taken the time to take care of a lady knight and when he arrived, he found his family where they should not have been?

[Sly Wren]

Impressive work, Sly Wren!

If we're to go about Jaime/Rhaegar echoes, should we perhaps have a look at Jaime's journey back to King's Landing? All the time, he's in a hurry to go back to his family, or at least those members of it he holds dear but he still takes the time to take care of the lady knight when he feels she needs it. And when he arrives, Joffrey is dead and Cersei tells him he should have come earlier. Perhaps an echo of Rhaegar who might have taken the time to take care of a lady knight and when he arrived, he found his family where they should not have been?

1. 

2. I hadn't though of Jaime's journey back. . . that's an interesting thought. I think it works.

The World Book only tells us where Rhaegar wasn't when he's on the road and eventually "falls upon" Lyanna in the Riveralands not many leagues from Harrenhal.

Jaime was sent by Tywin, after a confrontation with a Stark over an "insult" to the Riverlands. It goes all wrong, but by the time he gets back, as you say, things have gone very wrong with Jaime's family.

@Lady Dyanna first got me going on the idea of "formally" looking at the echoes, though "echoing" per se really seems to be a technique Martin uses. As well as other authors. The danger is going too far with it. Which of course puts me out on a limb. But where I started--the chasing of Arya and his thoughts re: ruling--those we know echo two of the few things we know Rhaegar did. So.  . . your ideas above--that really does seem likely as an echo. 

3. I do wonder what Rhaegar's reaction was when he got back to King's Landing to find that daddy was using Rhaegar's wife and children as leverage. That conversation could have been very ugly. Jaime thinks that he needs to get Tommen away from Cersei. He's not happy with the Mad Queen. I'm assuming, based on the very little info we have, that Rhaegar was not happy, either. 

Now, will Jaime succeed in cleaning up his family's mess better than Rhaegar did?

[LmL]

 

1. 

2. Yes--I will be happy to see @Lady Barbrey when she can come back. I'm not sure I buy all of her ideas, but they are amazing.  

Self-sacrifice may be key, yes. We've seen a bit of it with Jon. And I am far too worried about Bran for it to be reasonable (kid's fictional. My brain really should know that. *sigh*).

But seems there's a big difference between self-sacrifice and kinslaying.

I've seen the need for Coldhands-y figure from you and others. Not yet sold on it. But I do see at least some of the logic to it.

I'm not 100% on it either, it's kind of a creeping suspicion - I keep coming across hints about an undead NW. And the logic of Coldhands people to be the ones to journey north is mostly a logical argument. It's also based on how I see George using precedent as foreshadowing - for example, he gave us Varamyr's prologue so we would understand how Jon's thing might work, most agree. Think about Coldhands like that - not "who" is he, but "what?" The two answers that the evidence presents are "undead skinchanger / greenseer," and "uniquely equipped to survive in the North." He's been dead a long time - perhaps a very long time - and he's associated with the NW. I mean, he still wears the uniform, and calls Sam "brother." That's a lot of signs pointing to an affiliation with the Last Hero's party, if not the LH himself. 

And that's without getting into the massive amounts of symbolic evidence around Coldhands, something which I plan to write a rippin good essay about here pretty soon. I'm fired up for that because I think we will see the Green Men on the Isle of Faces next book, and that's going to let a few cats out of the bag if I am at all barking up the right tree with my ideas about Horned Lords and Green Men and how those relate to the NW. 

Wait. . . so, you can't see dead people? 

Have you tried glasses? Ouija board? Aura cleansing? Or just a good palm reading?

Let me clarify: the Stark dead rising like Tolkien's Dead Men of Dunharrow--I think it would be tied to the "frozen hell reserved for Starks." Tied to why the Starks are there in Winterfell in that crypt with the statues: they swore an oath to wait. Perhaps in penance for what some Starks have done (Night's King, etc.). So, I'm not sure if they'd rise like mindless wights (unnatural) or like shades--still themselves. Shades. Not unlike Ned's shade appearing to Rickon.

I'm thinking there's a chance (crackpot alert!) that this is the natural state of death for Starks--the frozen hell. Waiting. Now, could they rest after the final battle? Maybe. But their rising would be part of their oath and the past. Vs. the wights being raised with no will of their own (that we can see so far); raised for someone else's purpose.

That's cool, I like those ideas actually. And I do see the difference that you're drawing.  like I said, bring on the army of the undead.  that wine in a game of thrones, early on, where Robert talks about where are your people Ned? Probably hiding under the snow? And in the same chapter we are told WF's dead are buried in the lichyard? Yeah, it's all right there  Sound the horn. Wake the sleepers. Plug your nose. 

Agreed that he's winning so far--though the past is coming back at him. Still, given how the dream seems to go in retrograde from battle for the Wall to Battle with Wights (I think it's the Battle for the Dawn), the fact that there are no other men to help him and that the men are instead falling, burning from arrows from below--seems like fire isn't enough.  They need Dawn (you knew that was coming).

 

zzzzzzz.....

 

Just kidding  

I agree that the NW use fire to prevent wights. And to fight individual wights. But against the Others? To bring back the day? Seems like they will really need more. In their oath, fire's only one piece.

On the last: 

Ok see that I can get behind - fire is only one piece of the puzzle, perhaps.

[Anath]

 

@Lady Dyanna first got me going on the idea of "formally" looking at the echoes, though "echoing" per se really seems to be a technique Martin uses. As well as other authors. The danger is going too far with it. Which of course puts me out on a limb. But where I started--the chasing of Arya and his thoughts re: ruling--those we know echo two of the few things we know Rhaegar did. So.  . . your ideas above--that really does seem likely as an echo. 

If it's an echo at all, it's a very interesting one since it's a situation that can be taken as an extremely mutli-layered one in a certain aspect echoing another one that is complex in that same aspect. People hesitate between Jaime and Brienne being buddies and them being sexually attracted to each other., Jaime's feeling being the more questionable ones There are hints to support either suggestion. Similarly, people hesitate between Rhaegar being awed by Lyanna (with love blossoming later) and him being attracted to her from the start. Add Selmy's utter lack of understanding on people's thoughts where love is concerned - how can he be any different? He was so young when he took the oath that efffectively barred him from learning the small things of living together and love at all beyond infatuation (because making a move to more would be dishonourable for a KG!) firsthand, so the best way he can explain what he thinks happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna is compare them to epic love stories that he never witnessed firsthand. It's an interesting picture that ensues. Things get even more complicated when we have a closer look at thesettiing of the great scene in Dany's vision that to many (myself included) confirms Rhaegar love for Lyanna: his death while saying her name. There's a similar disclaimer to the one you point out about Ygritte: days that never were, or something like that. Was Dany's vision a real thing or something that she expected to see, aka Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved? (I vouch with more certainty for the Rhaegar/Elia vision since she had no prior expectations about them beyond how terrible Elia must have been to Rhaegar and the scene doesn't confirm them. It is's something that never happened, it's the HotU itself deceiving her, with no input by Dany's own expectations.) And right now, Jaime might be well on his way to die for the woman he certainly has feelings for, in a way. What kind of feelings those are is still unclear.

Oh, if that's an echo, it's a very interesting one.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not 100% on it either, it's kind of a creeping suspicion - I keep coming across hints about an undead NW. And the logic of Coldhands people to be the ones to journey north is mostly a logical argument. It's also based on how I see George using precedent as foreshadowing - for example, he gave us Varamyr's prologue so we would understand how Jon's thing might work, most agree. Think about Coldhands like that - not "who" is he, but "what?" The two answers that the evidence presents are "undead skinchanger / greenseer," and "uniquely equipped to survive in the North." He's been dead a long time - perhaps a very long time - and he's associated with the NW. I mean, he still wears the uniform, and calls Sam "brother." That's a lot of signs pointing to an affiliation with the Last Hero's party, if not the LH himself.

And that's without getting into the massive amounts of symbolic evidence around Coldhands, something which I plan to write a rippin good essay about here pretty soon. I'm fired up for that because I think we will see the Green Men on the Isle of Faces next book, and that's going to let a few cats out of the bag if I am at all barking up the right tree with my ideas about Horned Lords and Green Men and how those relate to the NW.

1. Agreed on the CH echo of the Last Hero's party. I don't think he'd need to have been that far back for the connection to work. 

2. Am looking forward to the essay! And I agree on seeing the Isle of Faces. And on the bolded: are the dogs barking at the cats in the tree? 

That's cool, I like those ideas actually. And I do see the difference that you're drawing.  like I said, bring on the army of the undead.  that wine in a game of thrones, early on, where Robert talks about where are your people Ned? Probably hiding under the snow? And in the same chapter we are told WF's dead are buried in the lichyard? Yeah, it's all right there  Sound the horn. Wake the sleepers. Plug your nose. 

And embrace the Arthurian and Celtic legends. They have the waking of sleeping kings under mountains, etc. And might help explain the potential connections between the Starks and the Others--magic blood.

zzzzzzz.....

 

Just kidding  

 Them's fighting' words, Astronomy Guy! 

Ok see that I can get behind - fire is only one piece of the puzzle, perhaps.

[Sly Wren]

If it's an echo at all, it's a very interesting one since it's a situation that can be taken as an extremely mutli-layered one in a certain aspect echoing another one that is complex in that same aspect. People hesitate between Jaime and Brienne being buddies and them being sexually attracted to each other., Jaime's feeling being the more questionable ones There are hints to support either suggestion. Similarly, people hesitate between Rhaegar being awed by Lyanna (with love blossoming later) and him being attracted to her from the start. Add Selmy's utter lack of understanding on people's thoughts where love is concerned - how can he be any different? He was so young when he took the oath that efffectively barred him from learning the small things of living together and love at all beyond infatuation (because making a move to more would be dishonourable for a KG!) firsthand, so the best way he can explain what he thinks happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna is compare them to epic love stories that he never witnessed firsthand. It's an interesting picture that ensues. Things get even more complicated when we have a closer look at thesettiing of the great scene in Dany's vision that to many (myself included) confirms Rhaegar love for Lyanna: his death while saying her name. There's a similar disclaimer to the one you point out about Ygritte: days that never were, or something like that. Was Dany's vision a real thing or something that she expected to see, aka Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved? (I vouch with more certainty for the Rhaegar/Elia vision since she had no prior expectations about them beyond how terrible Elia must have been to Rhaegar and the scene doesn't confirm them. It is's something that never happened, it's the HotU itself deceiving her, with no input by Dany's own expectations.) And right now, Jaime might be well on his way to die for the woman he certainly has feelings for, in a way. What kind of feelings those are is still unclear.

Oh, if that's an echo, it's a very interesting one.

1. Very cool stuff.

2. Quick disclaimer: I'm not sold on Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child. I do see it as possible--just not as likely as I used to.

3. All that said: setting aside any Lyanna as Knight theories, she does defend Howland from the squires. Runs them off in a wolfy rage. And Brienne does defend Jaime--refuses to kill him when he has a sword and is being, well, Jaime. And even defends Jaime in his dream.

The woman who's a defender of right--the "knightly ideal" vs. knightly skill. One way or another, Lyanna does exhibit that at Harrenhal. As does Arya with Mycah. And Sansa with Dontos. The echo is potentially there.

4. Now--as you say, echoes are unclear. And, far as I can see so far, characters are themselves as well as echoing/paralleling other characters (usually more than one) at different times. Could this be Brienne as Arthur reminding Jaime of his better self? As Arthur hypothetically reminded Rhaegar of his better self (vs. being caught up in Aerys' messes)?

Could Lyanna have reminded Rhaegar of his better self as a fighter? Or as Jaime's oath re: Sansa reminds him of who he wants to be? Makes him compare what he thinks is Sansa's guilt vs. Joff's life and his own commitment to his family?

And, as you say, is this a potential set up for Jaime's dying for Brienne? Both dying? Or, again--an echo of Arthur and Rhaegar?

Hmmm. .. I need to think on this. This should be very interesting to play with. And potentially very informative.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Yes--Jaime and Brienne are a united entity at this point. Jaime's family has turned out useless. Even in his home, under the Rock, there is only doom. And he's left to face his white brothers.

That unity. . . reminds me again of Rhaegar and Arthur. Barristan's and others' comments about how close they were. Arthur's work with the kingswood brotherhood; Rhaegar's attempts to reform the power structure. And Rhaegar's family not at ALL satisfactory with his father. Even as he tries to please his father/keep him steady. I wonder what the two of them might have accomplished were it not for that war. And we see the effect Brienne's idealism has on Jaime in the face of dealing with his father and sister.

Yeah. If only Robert were the kind of guy who can take a hint, so much mess might have been avoided...Rhaegar ruling with Arthur by his side, maybe even as Hand, would have been very interesting to see.

Agreed re: the conflict is the problem. I'm currently well-persuaded by @Black Crow's theory of the Children or a faction of the Children with a human greenseer as using the Others as a weapon. 

So, if the solution is not conflict, is the answer pact?

--Maybe. Though I think there was a pact at the end of the Long Night, but after all this time humans have forgotten. So pact seems to not be a permanent solution. Maybe there needs to be some deeper resolution other than "you stay on that side and I'll stay on this side."

 

 

1. Yup!! Those two do have some interesting gender inversions at times.  . 

2. Are you thinking Dany is part Dayne? Will end up as a fighter? She really seems like she's embracing fire and blood. Has already embraced blood sacrifice.  I'm thinking more and more that she may not be able to come back from that. And now that she seems set to pick up a horde--"Governance by Horde" doesn't sound, well, sound.

--I think Dany is exactly what Jon is. Either Targ/Stark or Dayne/Stark. Both changelings, both AA figures. Dayne and Targ blood are both Dawnian fire-variety bloodlines, so I almost think it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other really.

Main reason I think Dany will get Dawn is because the more I go along the more I think Longclaw is secretly Lightbringer. And Jon has it. So the ice-dragon has the fire sword; makes sense the fire-dragon gets the ice sword. I don't think Dany will become a swordfighter, but I also don't think the fate of Westeros will come down to a duel. (And it's interesting that at the end of Game when Dany is assigning bloodriders, she has nothing for Jorah but promises him a sword "like no other the world has never seen" or something like that. If she accepts him back into her service, he may become her surrogate swordsman with Dawn. IDK, not firm on that but possible.)

"To go west you must go east" = Dany needs Dosh Khaleen knowledge before going to Westeros

"To go north you must go south" = before being of any use at the Wall Dany must find out some things at Starfall

"To touch the light you must pass beneath the Shadow" = Dany correctly pegs this as Asshai. GRRM says no on will travel to Asshai, we will only see it in flashbacks. Readers assume this means Mel flashbacks. But if my fever dream interp is correct, we've actually already had an Asshai flashback from Dany (as she dreams of being AE fleeing BSE by warging dragon) and I think it's highly likely we'll have more.

 

Dany *has* embraced fire & blood. But IMO her choice is not "fire&blood or nah." To avert disaster she needs to find out about and embrace her other heritages as well--Stark, yes, and Fisher Queen. @Evolett has a fabulous defense of Dany's Fisher Queen heritage on her blog: https://bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/the-genetics-of-ice-and-fire-part-i-genes-of-gold-and-silver/

And yeah, she's done blood sacrifice, once, when she was new at this and pissed and the victim had just killed her baby. I see where Mirri was coming from but, as a mom-to-be, I get it. Can't say I wouldn't do the same. I don't think that's the same as embracing the whole concept of blood sacrifice, which actually Dany seems to reject as she refuses to kill her hostages and does all she can to avoid unnecessary bloodshed in Meereen. Dany's at a dangerous and pivotal moment, for sure, but I'm not *too* worried about her yet.

PS I don't think "remember who you are" refers just to Targ-ness. I think Quaithe knows about Dany's full heritage and is trying to spur more "soul memories" so that Dany realize it as well.

3. Ahh! Thanks for the correction. And I like it. Even ties in with the themes of the importance of unity and NOT kinslaying. If one side is corrupted, the "sword" can't function properly, yes? And balance is shot?

--Yes. And once corrupt, can it be redeemed? I'm not sure. Finger's crossed.

Amen--both are in underworld type places. Communing with the dead. And, as for going fully dark--really think their family ties are their best chance here. Their identity as Starks. 

[Anath]

2. Quick disclaimer: I'm not sold on Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child. I do see it as possible--just not as likely as I used to.

4. Now--as you say, echoes are unclear. And, far as I can see so far, characters are themselves as well as echoing/paralleling other characters (usually more than one) at different times.

2. The interesting thing is, this echo might work for a third situation as well, one that doesn't involve Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child. With our main sources for Rhaegar's love for her being perhaps-virgin-Selmy and Dany's vision which might not be a real one but influenced by her own knowledge, or what she considers knowledge, even the sexual relationship might be questionable (I am still in the Rhaegar being the father camp, though, but that's just me). Brienne is already called the Kingslayer's whore, yet we know she never had sex with Jaime. Who can say what took place between Rhaegar and Lyanna? The very fact that they were together coupled with the blue roses crown was reasonably taken to be enough for people to decide that their prince and the Stark girl were an item. Were they?

4. Perhaps echoes are in fact different roads taken? Rhaegar talked to Jaime - in an actual memory, not a dream - of roads not taken. If GRRM is clear about something, it's that prophecies can fail. In his world, people make their own fate - well, if they aren't smallfolk. That alone could go a long way to explain why echoes aren't mirrors and parallels aren't straight lines.

[Wall Flower]

Well if Rhaegar is Jon's father, I guess you could say that both he and Jaime fathered children that should have been Robert's!

Metaphorically speaking, Rhaegar had been standing outside the door a lot longer than Jaime powerless or failing to protect Rhaella from Aerys' mistreatment. In such a patriarchal culture, I wonder if he received similar advice - it's his right as husband and king, it's not your place to judge your father, it's your duty to obey your father, etc. Daeron the Good and Aemon the Dragonknight seemed to have done what they could to support Queen Naerys but in the end couldn't really protect her from her husband's cruelty.

In Jaime's case, he also had a kind of love/hate relationship with his father (although love might be too strong a word) and was even made complicit in Tywin's worst abuse against Tyrion.

Like Brienne to Jaime, Lyanna's initial appeal to Rhaegar may not have been strictly romantic but perhaps a reminder of diminished ideals and a challenge to apathy?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Well if Rhaegar is Jon's father, I guess you could say that both he and Jaime fathered children that should have been Robert's!

Metaphorically speaking, Rhaegar had been standing outside the door a lot longer than Jaime powerless or failing to protect Rhaella from Aerys' mistreatment. In such a patriarchal culture, I wonder if he received similar advice - it's his right as husband and king, it's not your place to judge your father, it's your duty to obey your father, etc. Daeron the Good and Aemon the Dragonknight seemed to have done what they could to support Queen Naerys but in the end couldn't really protect her from her husband's cruelty.

In Jaime's case, he also had a kind of love/hate relationship with his father (although love might be too strong a word) and was even made complicit in Tywin's worst abuse against Tyrion.

Like Brienne to Jaime, Lyanna's initial appeal to Rhaegar may not have been strictly romantic but perhaps a reminder of diminished ideals and a challenge to apathy?

I really like this idea. Sounds quite likely...although only argument against is that HH tourney was supposedly called for Rhaegar to communicate with lords re: direction of the 7k. I which case he was not feeling apathetic. Lyanna still could have inspired him though.

[Sly Wren]

Yeah. If only Robert were the kind of guy who can take a hint, so much mess might have been avoided...Rhaegar ruling with Arthur by his side, maybe even as Hand, would have been very interesting to see.

Amen on the bolded--but "Robert taking a hint"--can't go with you there just yet. Not without more evidence. 

But one way or another--Robert should not have been king.

-Maybe. Though I think there was a pact at the end of the Long Night, but after all this time humans have forgotten. So pact seems to not be a permanent solution. Maybe there needs to be some deeper resolution other than "you stay on that side and I'll stay on this side."

Agreed--I buy the logic that the Long Night might have been used to force a pact. And am assuming the same might be happening. And they need a deeper resolution. But will they get it in a world Martin has created where people repeat history and myth over and over again? Not sure how that could happen.

#1: I think Dany is exactly what Jon is. Either Targ/Stark or Dayne/Stark. Both changelings, both AA figures. Dayne and Targ blood are both Dawnian fire-variety bloodlines, so I almost think it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other really. 

#2: Main reason I think Dany will get Dawn is because the more I go along the more I think Longclaw is secretly Lightbringer. And Jon has it. So the ice-dragon has the fire sword; makes sense the fire-dragon gets the ice sword. I don't think Dany will become a swordfighter, but I also don't think the fate of Westeros will come down to a duel. (And it's interesting that at the end of Game when Dany is assigning bloodriders, she has nothing for Jorah but promises him a sword "like no other the world has never seen" or something like that. If she accepts him back into her service, he may become her surrogate swordsman with Dawn. IDK, not firm on that but possible.)

#1: Very possible. Especially with Barristan's comments re: Ashara. And the Red Door with lemons stuff. And I agree that the Daynes and the Targs come from the same distant origin. Seems like the Targs, though, like all Valyrians, embraced slavery and blood magics. Vs. the Daynes (so far as I can tell). And the purple-sailed Braavosi. So, seems like the Daynes are more about protecting (Sword of the Morning) while the Targs conquer in fire and blood--and now with Dothraki hordes.

#2: Interesting on Longclaw. My objection on that is that from the moment he's offered it, Jon doesn't really want it. He's dreamed of the sword of his father. A true great sword. That he'd win through valor and which would give him a name. Long claw, even as Lightbringer, can't give him all of that. And after he gets it, he knows he should be grateful. Everyone oohs and aahs over it when he shows it to the boys. But it's still not what he wants. He only really likes the pommel. Granted, in Martinlandia, we can't always get what we want. But Jon's lifelong dream--seems like he needs a true great sword. 

If anything, I can see Jon giving Longclaw back tot he Mormonts. And maybe teaching little Lyanna Mormont how to use it.

On the duel: any reason why it wouldn't be with Jaime--or his twin sword, Brienne? Since Jaime killed Aerys?

Dany *has* embraced fire & blood. But IMO her choice is not "fire&blood or nah." To avert disaster she needs to find out about and embrace her other heritages as well--Stark, yes, and Fisher Queen. @Evolett has a fabulous defense of Dany's Fisher Queen heritage on her blog: https://bluewinterrose.wordpress.com/2015/06/07/the-genetics-of-ice-and-fire-part-i-genes-of-gold-and-silver/

And yeah, she's done blood sacrifice, once, when she was new at this and pissed and the victim had just killed her baby. I see where Mirri was coming from but, as a mom-to-be, I get it. Can't say I wouldn't do the same. I don't think that's the same as embracing the whole concept of blood sacrifice, which actually Dany seems to reject as she refuses to kill her hostages and does all she can to avoid unnecessary bloodshed in Meereen. Dany's at a dangerous and pivotal moment, for sure, but I'm not *too* worried about her yet. 

PS I don't think "remember who you are" refers just to Targ-ness. I think Quaithe knows about Dany's full heritage and is trying to spur more "soul memories" so that Dany realize it as well. 

Agree on Dany's needing to learn truth and embrace heritage. Just not sure she will. She really seems to be embracing the Dothraki. And the dragon--right from book one. I actually yelled NO! at my book when she did the sacrifice to get the dragons. Not good. As others have posited, it's almost like the dragons are a sickness--give into them, and Targs get stuck in them. 

I agree re: her situation of the sacrifice. It's understandable--which is one of the reason I like Martin's writing. We understand when people, good people, do some terrible things. But--it's still blood sacrifice. And in Martinlandia, that seems to be an abomination. And Dany's engaged in some abominations. 

And I agree on your reading on Quaithe--Dany needs to re-evaluate her position, which is based on taking back a throne Viserys of all people told her was the right thing to do. Basing anything on Viserys--that should be re-evaluated. As well as that dream where she opens the visor to Rhaegar's armor and sees herself. Rhaegar died in that armor, Dany. RUN!!!!

--Yes. And once corrupt, can it be redeemed? I'm not sure. Finger's crossed. 

Given how corrupted people can be redeemed in this novel, can't see how corrupted things can't be turned. But that would also mean they could turn back.

[Sly Wren]

2. The interesting thing is, this echo might work for a third situation as well, one that doesn't involve Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child. With our main sources for Rhaegar's love for her being perhaps-virgin-Selmy and Dany's vision which might not be a real one but influenced by her own knowledge, or what she considers knowledge, even the sexual relationship might be questionable (I am still in the Rhaegar being the father camp, though, but that's just me). Brienne is already called the Kingslayer's whore, yet we know she never had sex with Jaime. Who can say what took place between Rhaegar and Lyanna? The very fact that they were together coupled with the blue roses crown was reasonably taken to be enough for people to decide that their prince and the Stark girl were an item. Were they?

Agreed--we as readers do a lot of story building around the "abduction" with missing evidence. Seems like the Westerosi might have done the same. We already have multiple versions of Jon's origin floating around the county. 

So--the above is very possible.

And, given how Jaime is willing to help Sansa because it's "right," part of his oath, and Joff deserved to die (Jaime doesn't think Sansa's innocent), am postulating (I know it's just theory) that Lyanna's situation might have had a similar effect on Rhaegar.

4. Perhaps echoes are in fact different roads taken? Rhaegar talked to Jaime - in an actual memory, not a dream - of roads not taken. If GRRM is clear about something, it's that prophecies can fail. In his world, people make their own fate - well, if they aren't smallfolk. That alone could go a long way to explain why echoes aren't mirrors and parallels aren't straight lines.

I like it!

And there are a lot of odd echoes like that. I left Theon out of the OP because it was already monstrously long. But Theon is involved in the deaths of faux Rickon and Faux Bran. In large part because of what his father asked him to do. Rhaegar, too, one way or another, is involved in the deaths of Rickard and Brandon. In part because of what his father asked him to do? 

The names, the deaths, the burning--really seems like we're supposed to note the similarities in the deaths. An echo, not a straight line, as you say. But a hint at what Rhaegar's position might have been? And Theon does help faux Arya escape. . .

[Sly Wren]

Well if Rhaegar is Jon's father, I guess you could say that both he and Jaime fathered children that should have been Robert's!

Agreed.

Metaphorically speaking, Rhaegar had been standing outside the door a lot longer than Jaime powerless or failing to protect Rhaella from Aerys' mistreatment. In such a patriarchal culture, I wonder if he received similar advice - it's his right as husband and king, it's not your place to judge your father, it's your duty to obey your father, etc. Daeron the Good and Aemon the Dragonknight seemed to have done what they could to support Queen Naerys but in the end couldn't really protect her from her husband's cruelty.

In Jaime's case, he also had a kind of love/hate relationship with his father (although love might be too strong a word) and was even made complicit in Tywin's worst abuse against Tyrion.

Like Brienne to Jaime, Lyanna's initial appeal to Rhaegar may not have been strictly romantic but perhaps a reminder of diminished ideals and a challenge to apathy?

YUP!!! We have more than enough evidence to suggest that Rhaegar was a decent guy. And that he ends up seen as a villain. Jaime--an idealistic kid who gets stuck in a mess via his father, his sister, and his king. Maligned for an act that was supposed to stop an evil king from committing King's Landing genocide. 

So, as you say, the idea that Lyanna was Rhaegar's last chance for honor, just as Jaime sees Sansa that way--a way to redeem the horrors his father had committed. . . very possible.  

I really like this idea. Sounds quite likely...although only argument against is that HH tourney was supposedly called for Rhaegar to communicate with lords re: direction of the 7k. I which case he was not feeling apathetic. Lyanna still could have inspired him though.

Agreed. Thought Rhaegar might have needed another boost to directly help a "prisoner" or "wanted Stark" from his father. Calling a council, working within the existing system is one thing. Directly undermining daddy might have been another.

[Anath]

Agreed--we as readers do a lot of story building around the "abduction" with missing evidence. Seems like the Westerosi might have done the same. We already have multiple versions of Jon's origin floating around the county. 

So--the above is very possible.

A little doubt per the existing evidence would do us some good as well, I think. Starting with Selmy, again - one of our two main sources about Rhaegar's feelings. Even if we leave Selmy's romanticizing of the Targaryen love affairs of the past, he isn't a trustworthy witness even to the things he personally witnessed. It literally occurred to me just now as I was reading your response that he has some trouble giving words the meaning most people do. Let's see his testimony per Aerys and Rhaella: no fondness there at the time of their wedding, he says, yet we know that in the beginning, there must have been some if Aerys comforted his sister over the loss of their children. I think Barristan is strongly influenced by what happened eventually - and by the fact that both Aerys and Rhaella had other infatuations. Yet he says Rhaegar was "fond'" of Elia, a political bride he might have met before or not. What are we to make of this? Personally, I take that to mean that Rhaegar's political match was no chain for him and didn't make him unhappy like his parents' marriage did them. And Rhaegar "loved his lady Lyanna". By the time I get there, I am more unconvinced than ever that Selmy knew what he was talking about. I think he saw the result - Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together, he admired Rhaegar (after being subjected to Aerys in full bloom, I cannot blame him, BTW), so he accepted that Rhaegar must have loved her. And still, he can't seem to reconcile that with Rhaegar's "fondness" of Elia. Could it be that we're all wrong and there wasn't anything to reconcile?

BTW, Lyanna being crowned because she the KotLT, if she was indeed this true knight, is actually a pretty contradictory move. Beyond the the blue roses and the romance of chivalry, there is this woman, the wife who everyone expects to receive the crown. Rhaegar chose to honour someone who punished offenders by offending his wife in full view of the whole nation? Another reason to think that he was either infatuated, so he wasn't thinking at all, or the motives were more akin to what you offer. A true knight in a lady's body would hardly be impressed by this slap in another woman's face just to acknowledge her.

Hmm, perhaps I should have posted this in your other thread.

[LmL]

Yeah. If only Robert were the kind of guy who can take a hint, so much mess might have been avoided...Rhaegar ruling with Arthur by his side, maybe even as Hand, would have been very interesting to see.

 

We're going to get the 'fake rolex' version of this, I predict: king fAegon with Darkstar at his side, wearing a white cloak, with stolen Dawn. Book it. 

[Sly Wren]

A little doubt per the existing evidence would do us some good as well, I think. Starting with Selmy, again - one of our two main sources about Rhaegar's feelings. Even if we leave Selmy's romanticizing of the Targaryen love affairs of the past, he isn't a trustworthy witness even to the things he personally witnessed. It literally occurred to me just now as I was reading your response that he has some trouble giving words the meaning most people do. Let's see his testimony per Aerys and Rhaella: no fondness there at the time of their wedding, he says, yet we know that in the beginning, there must have been some if Aerys comforted his sister over the loss of their children. I think Barristan is strongly influenced by what happened eventually - and by the fact that both Aerys and Rhaella had other infatuations. Yet he says Rhaegar was "fond'" of Elia, a political bride he might have met before or not. What are we to make of this? Personally, I take that to mean that Rhaegar's political match was no chain for him and didn't make him unhappy like his parents' marriage did them. And Rhaegar "loved his lady Lyanna". By the time I get there, I am more unconvinced than ever that Selmy knew what he was talking about. I think he saw the result - Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together, he admired Rhaegar (after being subjected to Aerys in full bloom, I cannot blame him, BTW), so he accepted that Rhaegar must have loved her. And still, he can't seem to reconcile that with Rhaegar's "fondness" of Elia. Could it be that we're all wrong and there wasn't anything to reconcile?

Barristan is trying to make sense of his life in his POVs that we get--thinking about Ashara, etc. He's a man who's served one vile king, one useless, king, and is trying, at the end of his life, to fight for the knightly ideals he believes in (see his feelings re: Ashara). Barristan's a good man, trying to be a true knight, who got stuck with bad leaders. 

So, yes, I think he is trying to reconcile the story that Rhaegar took Lyanna with what he knew of the man, even as he thinks that Arthur was the confidant, not himself. So, as you says, there may not be anything to "reconcile." Especially if Rhaegar "took" Lyanna on orders (my current working theory--subject to change at any time). 

What's interesting is that your argument above also seems to question whether readers should be trying to reconcile the two sides of Rhaegar. If the echoes we've been looking at actually hold, seems like we might not need to. Just look for the good man, struggling with bad relatives, trying to right a mistaken strike against the Starks. To "atone." Perhaps a less flawed version of Jaime and Theon. 

BTW, Lyanna being crowned because she the KotLT, if she was indeed this true knight, is actually a pretty contradictory move. Beyond the the blue roses and the romance of chivalry, there is this woman, the wife who everyone expects to receive the crown. Rhaegar chose to honour someone who punished offenders by offending his wife in full view of the whole nation? Another reason to think that he was either infatuated, so he wasn't thinking at all, or the motives were more akin to what you offer. A true knight in a lady's body would hardly be impressed by this slap in another woman's face just to acknowledge her.

Agreed. I've struggled for a while with "what on earth is Harp Boy doing with that wreath?" If Lyanna is the knight (I'm not convinced on that point, but for the sake of argument), then as you say, Rhaegar should know better. But if she's not the Knight (I think that's more likely), again--he should know better.

And, given that Lyanna definitely defended Howland from being insulted by the squires, I doubt she'd like the idea of someone with power insulting his wife. Arya would call Rhaegar stupid. And Sansa--well, she's rather horrified at "lack of gallantry"--from Robert for Cersei, from the court towards Barristan when he's being kicked out of the KG, in Cersei's attitude to the ladies during the Blackwater. Lyanna's wolf-maid nieces believe in rightness and justice, in kindness (Arya's giving water to prisoners, her defense of Mycah, Sansa's defense of Dontos) and even gallantry. If Lyanna was anything like her nieces--can't see her liking this.

But if the echoes hold up, and Rhaegar's doing the best he can with a bad family and Mad King Dad. . . then it's a lot easier (at least for me) to "reconcile" these odd contradictions.

Hmm, perhaps I should have posted this in your other thread.

HA!! No worries. As I was saying on the other thread--I've only done a few OP's and they've all turned into play-spaces for related ideas. Plus, at some point, everything ties together in the books. So, play away! 

[Sly Wren]

We're going to get the 'fake rolex' version of this, I predict: king fAegon with Darkstar at his side, wearing a white cloak, with stolen Dawn. Book it. 

I'm getting more sold on this idea--especially since Martin seems to give us both "real" echoes and "counterfeits" (IE: Cersei and the Blue Bard are all fake--but the echo seems "real") . 

So, I could see Darkstar the Pretentious trying for this. Now, would the Aegon buy it? Would JonCon? Or would they chuck Monsier le Idiot out? Or would they even get Dawn away from him?  . . . 

[LmL]

I'm getting more sold on this idea--especially since Martin seems to give us both "real" echoes and "counterfeits" (IE: Cersei and the Blue Bard are all fake--but the echo seems "real") . 

So, I could see Darkstar the Pretentious trying for this. Now, would the Aegon buy it? Would JonCon? Or would they chuck Monsier le Idiot out? Or would they even get Dawn away from him?  . . . 

Think about the position team fAegon  is in. They seek legitimacy above all else. They NEED people to believe his is Rhaegar's son, whether he is or not. A knight of House Dayne wielding Dawn in his KG would bring a LOT of gravitas. They would jump at the chance, I have to think.