About lady Shella of Harrenhall and Lyanna

[purple-eyes]

I think Lady Shella is a helper of Rhaegar on the "abduction" of Lyanna. She is wife of Lord Whent and good sister of Oswell Whent. also mother of fair maid of Whent. 

By some resources, she is also a whent by birth, maybe she is even sister of lady Minisa Whent, who knows. 

We do not know how long between Tourney and abduction, but we can safely say it was a few months. 

So Brandon is in Riverrun, Ned is in Eyrie, Benjen is in winterfell, Rickard is heading from north to Riverrun. 

Why would Lyanna be near Harrenhall? It is not a short distance from either one. And she is a single daughter of the house. 

I think rhaegar and Lyanna already planned to elope by the end of the tourney. But Rhaegar had to go back to DS firstly because Elia will deliver Aegon after some time. 

He probably needs to be present at the birth of his next child. especially if he thinks aegon is the promised prince due to the red comet. 

Then Rhaegar secretly asked Lady Shella to invite Lyanna as a guest to teach her how to become a lady. So that she did not need to go back to Winterfell with Benjen, thus easy to elope.  

Brandon would be happy to accept this invitation, firstly, Lyanna is very wild, running around with tourney sword, and she even dropped cup of wine to Benjen's head in a public royal feast, which is something joff did to Tyrion. Brandon would be reasonably worried that Lyanna will not become a proper lady of Strom's end. What if she likes dropping wine over Robert's head after marriage? or over head of Stannis? Or beat Renly with her wooden sword like she did to Benjen? (quite funny though)

Secondly, mother of his soon-to-be wife Catelyn is a member of Whent family, so they are very trustful. Plus there is fair maid of Whent to be her friend.  

In fact, if you look carefully, none of southern LP houses had a lady to teach Lyanna, Joanna is dead, Minisa is dead, Jon Arryn's wife is dead, Robert's mother is dead, Alerie Hightower is there but she is a very young bride (Mace is only like 21), you can not expect her to teach Lyanna. Even Elia's mom died too. (this is not coincidence I think, why all high ladies died?). So lady Whent is the best option. 

Third, Lyanna can go to join Brandon easily in Riverrun during the wedding. It is not very far, at least better than winterfell. 

Then Lyanna stayed there, waited until Rhaegar witnessed the birth of his son Aegon, then brought his loyal servants and came back to Riverlands, then she pretended to go to riverrun to join Brandon, on the way, she ran away with Rahegar.

And Oswell Whent knew everything and he is basically a coordinator in all these things. 

 

 

 

 

 

[dariopatke]

I think Lady Shella is a helper of Rhaegar on the "abduction" of Lyanna. She is wife of Lord Whent and good sister of Oswell Whent. also mother of fair maid of Whent. 

By some resources, she is also a whent by birth, maybe she is even sister of lady Minisa Whent, who knows. 

We do not know how long between Tourney and abduction, but we can safely say it was a few months. 

So Brandon is in Riverrun, Ned is in Eyrie, Benjen is in winterfell, Rickard is heading from north to Riverrun. 

Why would Lyanna be near Harrenhall? It is not a short distance from either one. And she is a single daughter of the house. 

I think rhaegar and Lyanna already planned to elope by the end of the tourney. But Rhaegar had to go back to DS firstly because Elia will deliver Aegon after some time. 

He probably needs to be present at the birth of his next child. especially if he thinks aegon is the promised prince due to the red comet. 

Then Rhaegar secretly asked Lady Shella to invite Lyanna as a guest to teach her how to become a lady. So that she did not need to go back to Winterfell with Benjen, thus easy to elope.  

Brandon would be happy to accept this invitation, firstly, Lyanna is very wild, running around with tourney sword, and she even dropped cup of wine to Benjen's head in a public royal feast, which is something joff did to Tyrion. Brandon would be reasonably worried that Lyanna will not become a proper lady of Strom's end. What if she likes dropping wine over Robert's head after marriage? or over head of Stannis? Or beat Renly with her wooden sword like she did to Benjen? (quite funny though)

Secondly, mother of his soon-to-be wife Catelyn is a member of Whent family, so they are very trustful. Plus there is fair maid of Whent to be her friend.  

In fact, if you look carefully, none of southern LP houses had a lady to teach Lyanna, Joanna is dead, Minisa is dead, Jon Arryn's wife is dead, Robert's mother is dead, Alerie Hightower is there but she is a very young bride (Mace is only like 21), you can not expect her to teach Lyanna. Even Elia's mom died too. (this is not coincidence I think, why all high ladies died?). So lady Whent is the best option. 

Third, Lyanna can go to join Brandon easily in Riverrun during the wedding. It is not very far, at least better than winterfell. 

Then Lyanna stayed there, waited until Rhaegar witnessed the birth of his son Aegon, then brought his loyal servants and came back to Riverlands, then she pretended to go to riverrun to join Brandon, on the way, she ran away with Rahegar.

And Oswell Whent knew everything and he is basically a coordinator in all these things. 

 

 

 

 

 

Whents are involved with cidnaping much more than we all think, I really like this theory and makes very much sense. I dont see how kidnaping could happen in any other case, she had to be alone, Rheagar could not abduct her in front of Brandon. I laughed so hard about Lyanna at SE, even now I cant stop laughing when I think about Stannis' face and teeth grinding while she does that to him, and beating Renly, I would love to see that to. :'D

[purple-eyes]

Whents are involved with cidnaping much more than we all think, I really like this theory and makes very much sense. I dont see how kidnaping could happen in any other case, she had to be alone, Rheagar could not abduct her in front of Brandon. I laughed so hard about Lyanna at SE, even now I cant stop laughing when I think about Stannis' face and teeth grinding while she does that to him, and beating Renly, I would love to see that to. :'D

Exactly, Stannis is sort of harsh on words, Benjen just teased Lyanna then Lyanna immediately dropped wine on his head, 

If Stannis made some comments on Lyanna, then Lyanna will surely teach her good brother a lesson. 

 

 

[Dorian Martell]

I think Lady Shella is a helper of Rhaegar on the "abduction" of Lyanna. She is wife of Lord Whent and good sister of Oswell Whent. also mother of fair maid of Whent. 

By some resources, she is also a whent by birth, maybe she is even sister of lady Minisa Whent, who knows. 

We do not know how long between Tourney and abduction, but we can safely say it was a few months. 

So Brandon is in Riverrun, Ned is in Eyrie, Benjen is in winterfell, Rickard is heading from north to Riverrun. 

Why would Lyanna be near Harrenhall? It is not a short distance from either one. And she is a single daughter of the house. 

I think rhaegar and Lyanna already planned to elope by the end of the tourney. But Rhaegar had to go back to DS firstly because Elia will deliver Aegon after some time. 

He probably needs to be present at the birth of his next child. especially if he thinks aegon is the promised prince due to the red comet. 

Then Rhaegar secretly asked Lady Shella to invite Lyanna as a guest to teach her how to become a lady. So that she did not need to go back to Winterfell with Benjen, thus easy to elope.  

Brandon would be happy to accept this invitation, firstly, Lyanna is very wild, running around with tourney sword, and she even dropped cup of wine to Benjen's head in a public royal feast, which is something joff did to Tyrion. Brandon would be reasonably worried that Lyanna will not become a proper lady of Strom's end. What if she likes dropping wine over Robert's head after marriage? or over head of Stannis? Or beat Renly with her wooden sword like she did to Benjen? (quite funny though)

Secondly, mother of his soon-to-be wife Catelyn is a member of Whent family, so they are very trustful. Plus there is fair maid of Whent to be her friend.  

In fact, if you look carefully, none of southern LP houses had a lady to teach Lyanna, Joanna is dead, Minisa is dead, Jon Arryn's wife is dead, Robert's mother is dead, Alerie Hightower is there but she is a very young bride (Mace is only like 21), you can not expect her to teach Lyanna. Even Elia's mom died too. (this is not coincidence I think, why all high ladies died?). So lady Whent is the best option. 

Third, Lyanna can go to join Brandon easily in Riverrun during the wedding. It is not very far, at least better than winterfell. 

Then Lyanna stayed there, waited until Rhaegar witnessed the birth of his son Aegon, then brought his loyal servants and came back to Riverlands, then she pretended to go to riverrun to join Brandon, on the way, she ran away with Rahegar.

And Oswell Whent knew everything and he is basically a coordinator in all these things. 

 While this is totally unfounded, it is interesting. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Hmm.  Perhaps George gave us a teaser of this.  Shortly before Arya is abducted by the Hound, she is washed and dressed as a lady by an older lady, who's name and holdfast I cannot remember.

[Greymoon]

I think Lady Shella is a helper of Rhaegar on the "abduction" of Lyanna. She is wife of Lord Whent and good sister of Oswell Whent. also mother of fair maid of Whent. 

By some resources, she is also a whent by birth, maybe she is even sister of lady Minisa Whent, who knows. 

We do not know how long between Tourney and abduction, but we can safely say it was a few months. 

So Brandon is in Riverrun, Ned is in Eyrie, Benjen is in winterfell, Rickard is heading from north to Riverrun. 

Why would Lyanna be near Harrenhall? It is not a short distance from either one. And she is a single daughter of the house. 

I think rhaegar and Lyanna already planned to elope by the end of the tourney. But Rhaegar had to go back to DS firstly because Elia will deliver Aegon after some time. 

He probably needs to be present at the birth of his next child. especially if he thinks aegon is the promised prince due to the red comet. 

Then Rhaegar secretly asked Lady Shella to invite Lyanna as a guest to teach her how to become a lady. So that she did not need to go back to Winterfell with Benjen, thus easy to elope.  

Brandon would be happy to accept this invitation, firstly, Lyanna is very wild, running around with tourney sword, and she even dropped cup of wine to Benjen's head in a public royal feast, which is something joff did to Tyrion. Brandon would be reasonably worried that Lyanna will not become a proper lady of Strom's end. What if she likes dropping wine over Robert's head after marriage? or over head of Stannis? Or beat Renly with her wooden sword like she did to Benjen? (quite funny though)

Secondly, mother of his soon-to-be wife Catelyn is a member of Whent family, so they are very trustful. Plus there is fair maid of Whent to be her friend.  

In fact, if you look carefully, none of southern LP houses had a lady to teach Lyanna, Joanna is dead, Minisa is dead, Jon Arryn's wife is dead, Robert's mother is dead, Alerie Hightower is there but she is a very young bride (Mace is only like 21), you can not expect her to teach Lyanna. Even Elia's mom died too. (this is not coincidence I think, why all high ladies died?). So lady Whent is the best option. 

Third, Lyanna can go to join Brandon easily in Riverrun during the wedding. It is not very far, at least better than winterfell. 

Then Lyanna stayed there, waited until Rhaegar witnessed the birth of his son Aegon, then brought his loyal servants and came back to Riverlands, then she pretended to go to riverrun to join Brandon, on the way, she ran away with Rahegar.

And Oswell Whent knew everything and he is basically a coordinator in all these things. 

While the idea that Lyanna was a guest of Lady Whent has been around for some time on the R+L=J forum, I doubt that it was all orchestrated to the benefit of Rhaegar.  Lyanna and Brandon probably stayed south after the tourney, because Brandon was due to marry sometime after, and the trip back north was not worth it. Not to mention, that it was only a "false spring" so winter was to be upon them soon. Ned returned to the Vale, so that's a slightly different story.

We don't know much about Benjen's whereabouts, but imo, it's quite possible he was with his siblings as well and that he only returned north after Brandon was arrested in KL.

I also doubt Rhaegar was waiting for Aegon's birth before putting his "plan" in motion. I don't think there was much of a plan, to be honest.

[purple-eyes]

While the idea that Lyanna was a guest of Lady Whent has been around for some time on the R+L=J forum, I doubt that it was all orchestrated to the benefit of Rhaegar.  Lyanna and Brandon probably stayed south after the tourney, because Brandon was due to marry sometime after, and the trip back north was not worth it. Not to mention, that it was only a "false spring" so winter was to be upon them soon. Ned returned to the Vale, so that's a slightly different story.

We don't know much about Benjen's whereabouts, but imo, it's quite possible he was with his siblings as well and that he only returned north after Brandon was arrested in KL.

I also doubt Rhaegar was waiting for Aegon's birth before putting his "plan" in motion. I don't think there was much of a plan, to be honest.

if we agree there must be a stark in winterfell, then benjen must be in north since Rickard was traveling from north to riverrun for wedding. 

Many people have discussed if lyanna was a guest of whent, but my opinion is, this was arranged by rhaegar to allow him to stay close with her.  Maybe lyanna was even installed in harrenhal as rhaegar's mistress for a while at (only for sex) , then after they found they needed to create a child due to birth of aegon, they had to elope since it is too scandalous and hard to hide. 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

I think Lady Shella is a helper of Rhaegar on the "abduction" of Lyanna. She is wife of Lord Whent and good sister of Oswell Whent. also mother of fair maid of Whent. 

By some resources, she is also a whent by birth, maybe she is even sister of lady Minisa Whent, who knows. 

We do not know how long between Tourney and abduction, but we can safely say it was a few months. 

So Brandon is in Riverrun, Ned is in Eyrie, Benjen is in winterfell, Rickard is heading from north to Riverrun. 

Why would Lyanna be near Harrenhall? It is not a short distance from either one. And she is a single daughter of the house. 

I think rhaegar and Lyanna already planned to elope by the end of the tourney. But Rhaegar had to go back to DS firstly because Elia will deliver Aegon after some time. 

He probably needs to be present at the birth of his next child. especially if he thinks aegon is the promised prince due to the red comet. 

Then Rhaegar secretly asked Lady Shella to invite Lyanna as a guest to teach her how to become a lady. So that she did not need to go back to Winterfell with Benjen, thus easy to elope.  

Brandon would be happy to accept this invitation, firstly, Lyanna is very wild, running around with tourney sword, and she even dropped cup of wine to Benjen's head in a public royal feast, which is something joff did to Tyrion. Brandon would be reasonably worried that Lyanna will not become a proper lady of Strom's end. What if she likes dropping wine over Robert's head after marriage? or over head of Stannis? Or beat Renly with her wooden sword like she did to Benjen? (quite funny though)

Secondly, mother of his soon-to-be wife Catelyn is a member of Whent family, so they are very trustful. Plus there is fair maid of Whent to be her friend.  

In fact, if you look carefully, none of southern LP houses had a lady to teach Lyanna, Joanna is dead, Minisa is dead, Jon Arryn's wife is dead, Robert's mother is dead, Alerie Hightower is there but she is a very young bride (Mace is only like 21), you can not expect her to teach Lyanna. Even Elia's mom died too. (this is not coincidence I think, why all high ladies died?). So lady Whent is the best option. 

Third, Lyanna can go to join Brandon easily in Riverrun during the wedding. It is not very far, at least better than winterfell. 

Then Lyanna stayed there, waited until Rhaegar witnessed the birth of his son Aegon, then brought his loyal servants and came back to Riverlands, then she pretended to go to riverrun to join Brandon, on the way, she ran away with Rahegar.

And Oswell Whent knew everything and he is basically a coordinator in all these things. 

 

 

 

 

 

i cant see Rhaegar telling Lord Whents wife to make a Lady of Lyanna besides shes wild yes but she has been being taught to be a Lady her whole life. 

 Southron girls go off to be things like Lady in waiting for Princess' etc but I can't recall any other Northern girls being sent off to be a ward or fostered.

 

I personally believe that Brandon and Lyanna were south visiting the Tully's in Riverrun and this is where her and Rhaegar snuck off together as Lyanna has no ties to Harrenhal or the Whents. 

 

You mentioned Brandon accepting an invitation that his sister be sent away I highly doubt she lets her brother send her anywhere he has no rule over what she does.

[purple-eyes]

i cant see Rhaegar telling Lord Whents wife to make a Lady of Lyanna besides shes wild yes but she has been being taught to be a Lady her whole life. 

 Southron girls go off to be things like Lady in waiting for Princess' etc but I can't recall any other Northern girls being sent off to be a ward or fostered.

 

I personally believe that Brandon and Lyanna were south visiting the Tully's in Riverrun and this is where her and Rhaegar snuck off together as Lyanna has no ties to Harrenhal or the Whents. 

 

You mentioned Brandon accepting an invitation that his sister be sent away I highly doubt she lets her brother send her anywhere he has no rule over what she does.

unfortunately when Rickard is not around, brandon as the temporary head of house can surely decide how to arrange lyanna if he feels it necessary. Sure lyanna can refuse, but my point is that she herself wanted to stay with whent so that she can remain contact with rhaegar and can run away with him easily. 

Just like you said, lyanna is lack of southern court eduction, which is necessary for a lady of storm end. If she married a Mormont, sure she can remain wild and choose to sleep with bear if it pleases her, but not as lady of stormland. 

We never heard she was taught to be a lady. She was raised by female servants and is only daughter so she was very likely spoiled. She is not a lady at all, wild as arya but without peer pressure from sansa. 

That is why she had both features of sansa and arya. 

 

 

 

 

[Greymoon]

if we agree there must be a stark in winterfell, then benjen must be in north since Rickard was traveling from north to riverrun for wedding. 

Many people have discussed if lyanna was a guest of whent, but my opinion is, this was arranged by rhaegar to allow him to stay close with her.  Maybe lyanna was even installed in harrenhal as rhaegar's mistress for a while at (only for sex) , then after they found they needed to create a child due to birth of aegon, they had to elope since it is too scandalous and hard to hide. 

I doubt it. But that's also because I don't think Rhaegar's motivation was to "create the third head". imo, that's way too simplistic. Plus, it's sort of based on a single vision by Dany in the HotU - a vision that can be true, false or metaphorical, and that tells us little with certainty concerning Rhaegar himself.

All the plots in the books, even those that involve prophecies and magic have a political background/dimension and are multi-layered. There's no reason to think that R+L is any different and that the individual motivations and circumstances surrounding the story are straightforward.

[purple-eyes]

I doubt it. But that's also because I don't think Rhaegar's motivation was to "create the third head". imo, that's way too simplistic. Plus, it's sort of based on a single vision by Dany in the HotU - a vision that can be true, false or metaphorical, and that tells us little with certainty concerning Rhaegar himself.

All the plots in the books, even those that involve prophecies and magic have a political background/dimension and are multi-layered. There's no reason to think that R+L is any different and that the individual motivations and circumstances surrounding the story are straightforward.

rhaegar's main motivation must be for the "dragon head". Maybe he also have some political concern, but I highly doubt. 

 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

unfortunately when Rickard is not around, brandon as the temporary head of house can surely decide how to arrange lyanna if he feels it necessary. Sure lyanna can refuse, but my point is that she herself wanted to stay with whent so that she can remain contact with rhaegar and can run away with him easily. 

Just like you said, lyanna is lack of southern court eduction, which is necessary for a lady of storm end. If she married a Mormont, sure she can remain wild and choose to sleep with bear if it pleases her, but not as lady of stormland. 

We never heard she was taught to be a lady. She was raised by female servants and is only daughter so she was very likely spoiled. She is not a lady at all, wild as arya but without peer pressure from sansa. 

That is why she had both features of sansa and arya. 

 

 

 

 

all children of a Lord are raised to be lordlings and ladies is my point and so far none of the northern girls have been sent south however I like your idea I do doubt Brandon would have any say over his sister being fostered unless his father was off at war or something. Could be that Rickard was visiting the Tully's with Brandon and Lyanna and brokered this with Minisa as a middle man further strengthening the family bond 

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

rhaegar's main motivation must be for the "dragon head". Maybe he also have some political concern, but I highly doubt. 

 

 Rhaegar could have had the hots for Lyanna too it's always possible the one thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that while Rhaegar is supposedly rallying the realm why does he risk losing the Stormlands ? Unless of course he wanted to remove the Baratheons but that's a big move 

[purple-eyes]

 Rhaegar could have had the hots for Lyanna too it's always possible the one thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that while Rhaegar is supposedly rallying the realm why does he risk losing the Stormlands ? Unless of course he wanted to remove the Baratheons but that's a big move 

rhaegar just wanted to hide until the third dragon or savior head was born safely. Everything he did pointed at the safe birth of baby, not his personal hots for lyanna. He did not think about other people's response because he thought third dragon head and savior is more important than anyone else. 

 

[John Suburbs]

Not a bad OP.

I've always wondered why Lyanna would remain at HH after all her brothers had left, and how Rhaegar supposedly just happened upon her in the woods one day. This answers both.

[purple-eyes]

i cant see Rhaegar telling Lord Whents wife to make a Lady of Lyanna besides shes wild yes but she has been being taught to be a Lady her whole life. 

 Southron girls go off to be things like Lady in waiting for Princess' etc but I can't recall any other Northern girls being sent off to be a ward or fostered.

 

I personally believe that Brandon and Lyanna were south visiting the Tully's in Riverrun and this is where her and Rhaegar snuck off together as Lyanna has no ties to Harrenhal or the Whents. 

 

You mentioned Brandon accepting an invitation that his sister be sent away I highly doubt she lets her brother send her anywhere he has no rule over what she does.

and also lyanna was not a ward or foster daughter in harrenhall. 

It is a very short time, only a few months. 

She is just a guest of house Whent to learn some lady-like stuff and customs. 

Then she will go to riverrun to join the wedding with family. 

She either a guest in riverrun or a guest in harrenahll. Considering cat's mom is dead and they are busy in the wedding, sure lady Whent would be a good choice to teach lyanna. She may be aunt of catelyn and they must be very familiar. 

What if lyanna again drops wine over ned or benjen during Brandon's wedding? 

[sciteacher]

unfortunately when Rickard is not around, brandon as the temporary head of house can surely decide how to arrange lyanna if he feels it necessary. Sure lyanna can refuse, but my point is that she herself wanted to stay with whent so that she can remain contact with rhaegar and can run away with him easily. 

Just like you said, lyanna is lack of southern court eduction, which is necessary for a lady of storm end. If she married a Mormont, sure she can remain wild and choose to sleep with bear if it pleases her, but not as lady of stormland. 

We never heard she was taught to be a lady. She was raised by female servants and is only daughter so she was very likely spoiled. She is not a lady at all, wild as arya but without peer pressure from sansa. 

That is why she had both features of sansa and arya. 

 

Wait a minute, aren't the household septas the ones responsible for teaching young lords and ladies their court manners?

Mordane is a septa in the Faith of the Seven for the Stark girls, Sansa and Arya at Winterfell. Her primary duties involve teaching the two girls the gentle arts and turning them into noblewomen. I wonder if the previous generation had no septa because the followed the old gods? Or would you hire one anyway, just to just the courtly manners taught.

[purple-eyes]

Wait a minute, aren't the household septas the ones responsible for teaching young lords and ladies their court manners?

Mordane is a septa in the Faith of the Seven for the Stark girls, Sansa and Arya at Winterfell. Her primary duties involve teaching the two girls the gentle arts and turning them into noblewomen. I wonder if the previous generation had no septa because the followed the old gods? Or would you hire one anyway, just to just the courtly manners taught.

catelyn is a follower of faith and was likely taught by a septa and her mother. Sure she would have septa for her daughter. 

lyanna's whole family followed old gods. It is less likely she was taught by a septa.we saw sansa and arya were accompanied by septa, but we never heard about lyanna. Sansa brought septa to tourney too, did lyanna have one at HH? No. 

her main tutor maybe just old nan. Even Rickard got her a septa, since there was no lady mother who can overrule lyanna, obviously lyanna would not care about the septa or obey septa. This is why she was so wild.