Jamie's confession

[Good Guy Garlan]

5 hours ago, bent branch said:

I think is a deeper reason why Jaime hadn't told anyone up to that point. And it has to do with his golden armor - ASOS-Chapter 11:

Jaime had already betrayed Aerys before Aerys gave the order to burn the city. This is the significance of the golden armor and why Jaime is irritated that no one seems to recognize that.

This. What some people forget is that Jaime absolutely hated Aerys: he knew Aerys thought of him as a "crutch" to use against Tywin, that he gave him the white cloak not because of his own merit but as an insult to Tywin, he heard him violently rape his wife and when Jaime tried to interfere the other KG told him to zip it, he saw him burned several men alive, for crying out loud. 

Jaime was up to here with Aerys' shit, so I think the wildfire thing finally pushed him over the edge (that Aerys ordered him to bring him Tywin's head probably helped too). 

Now, I don't think he told any of Lannisters about the wildfire, simply because the version they have is somewhat more reassuring or even heartwarming for them: that he did what he did for them, for House Lannister, not for hundreds of peasants and whores and the scum of King's Landing. 

 

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

Bugger your pragmatism in this, we're discussing a story, don't look at it with the fourth wall in place.

When the story is clearly being bent for the benefit of that forth wall it's relevant discussion. But thank you for your attempt at speaking for everyone else and informing me what I should and shouldn't be discussing.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

8 hours ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

Thank you for pointing out the obvious so I didn't have to.

For your second point I would like to add that when Tyrion learned of the hidden caches of wildfire he would have at least had a thought revealing knowledge of the plot if he knew of the plot but iirc he seems surprised and concerned about how it could affect the city should some mishap have occurred.

As for Cersei it may go either way, she seems to have a more narrower mindset which is a little harder to read as she is so benevolent to so many things. Didn't Jaime say to her that she sounded like Aerys at one point, I think in reference to her burning of tower of the hand. Perhaps he had shared with her, perhaps not.

He already corrected me you camel cunt. I don't wanna be corrected twice your opinion means nothing to me

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

When the story is clearly being bent for the benefit of that forth wall it's relevant discussion. But thank you for your attempt at speaking for everyone else and informing me what I should and shouldn't be discussing.

Lol you tell him. I'm not liking this targ pretender 

[dornishdame]

In Feast, after Tommen has run out of the Sept of Baelor during Tywin's funeral, Jaime chases after him:

I have smelled my own hand rotting, when Vargo Hoat made me wear it for a pendant. "A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside."

I think that during his time in Aerys's Seven, Jaime had to go away inside on a daily basis. And after he killed Aerys and had the judgmental encounter with Ned, he was so caught up in the concept of if you can't be famous, then at least be infamous. Saving King's Landing doesn't really fit in with that, and I don't think he ever confided in Cersei what he saw Aerys do. His imprisonment at the hands of the Starks represents  Jaime's first opportunity to think in depth about anything. In fact, he is forced to be alone and as a result of that reflect on his life. Finally, I think he is really forced to deal with what happened, and with what he saw.  The reality is, Jaime was broken long before Zollo the Fat relieved him of his sword hand. 

[Jaime4Brienne]

I saw an interview with G.R.R (I can't post the link, I have searched for it for hours so I could post it in the Youtube comments for the Harrenhall bath scene)

Anyway he was asked why Jaime told Brienne when he'd never told anyone else about it. G.R.R said that he just couldn't stand for Brienne to think of him badly anymore and that's why he told her. I think it has something to do with her being so honorable and he (in her mind) wasn't and he didn't want her to think of him as dishonorable.

[TheMightyKC]

No one cared because he was a Kingslayer and also because it ups the dramatic tension having a character only reveal the truth when dramatically / plotistically relevant.  See, Villains, Bond, James, movies, of.

[Clegane'sPup]

On 1/24/2016 at 6:08 PM, Dofs said:

First of all, Jaime confessed to Brienne, not to Cat.

And no, there is absolutely zero indication that he told even his own family about wildifre, and I don't think he did.

Damn it! I feel like a donkey’s behind. Please replace the name Cat with Brienne in my post.

[krtmd]

It's clear Jaime has never told anyone until he tells Brienne.  Not even Cersei.
 

Just like it's clear that Cersei never told Jaime about Maggy.

They aren't really as close as they like to think they are.

[HornblowerHar]

8 hours ago, dornishdame said:

In Feast, after Tommen has run out of the Sept of Baelor during Tywin's funeral, Jaime chases after him:

I have smelled my own hand rotting, when Vargo Hoat made me wear it for a pendant. "A man can bear most anything, if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his own armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing . . . go away inside."

I think that during his time in Aerys's Seven, Jaime had to go away inside on a daily basis. And after he killed Aerys and had the judgmental encounter with Ned, he was so caught up in the concept of if you can't be famous, then at least be infamous. Saving King's Landing doesn't really fit in with that, and I don't think he ever confided in Cersei what he saw Aerys do. His imprisonment at the hands of the Starks represents  Jaime's first opportunity to think in depth about anything. In fact, he is forced to be alone and as a result of that reflect on his life. Finally, I think he is really forced to deal with what happened, and with what he saw.  The reality is, Jaime was broken long before Zollo the Fat relieved him of his sword hand. 

dornishdame I really like this post.  I think the Lannister's would have thought less of him had he confessed.  Tywin would have just thought of it as Jaime's duty to house Lannister.

[dornishdame]

8 hours ago, HornblowerHar said:

dornishdame I really like this post.  I think the Lannister's would have thought less of him had he confessed.  Tywin would have just thought of it as Jaime's duty to house Lannister.

Yes, I tend to see Tyrion as the son Tywin didn't want, but who turned out to have inherited his political acumen, and Jaime as the son he wanted, but who didn't turn into the man he wanted him to be. In Tyrion X in Storm, he thinks the following when discussing Oberyn and Elia's visit to Casterly Rock with the former:

It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. 

Certainly I think this is an excellent summation of Tywin's treatment of his children. I think that as he approached KL Tywin was probably as concerned about what Jaime would do to Aerys as he was what Aerys would do to Jaime. Perhaps that is a sign of how Tywin thinks of his elder son. 

I would also say that I think Jaime was in a lose-lose position, and it all goes back to the statement he makes to Catelyn in Clash -

"So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other." 

If Jaime had told the truth, he would be breaking his Kingsguard vows to keep Aerys's secrets; in neglecting to tell the full story and leaving it open to the perception that he has merely slain the king, he is in breach of his vow to defend the king.  As I said in my post above, Jaime has been broken for a long time. 

[Winter Rose Crown]

Quote

 

It won't let me quote properly but bent branch, what do you mean Jaime's story doesn't entirely make sense and brienne only believes it because she's naive? Is that just because of the golden armor? He was still wearing the white cloak. I mean, he was primed to betray him but I don't know if he had already made that choice.

[Winter Rose Crown]

and he didn't say the thing about the armour aloud so I don't see how that makes her naive?

[Blackfyre Bastard]

On 1/25/2016 at 3:48 PM, Jaime4Brienne said:

I saw an interview with G.R.R (I can't post the link, I have searched for it for hours so I could post it in the Youtube comments for the Harrenhall bath scene)

Anyway he was asked why Jaime told Brienne when he'd never told anyone else about it. G.R.R said that he just couldn't stand for Brienne to think of him badly anymore and that's why he told her. I think it has something to do with her being so honorable and he (in her mind) wasn't and he didn't want her to think of him as dishonorable.

I don't want to contradict GRRM's statement, after all he is the author and knows why he wrote what he wrote, but I've also read that sometimes the characters' motives escape the author.

I think that Jaime opened to Brienne because she is the only real personal relationship he has, you know, as a peer or even a friend. Before her, he only had colleagues (the KG), family, or enemies. But after his hand was cut, and realizing that without it he was nothing, he had to create a new identity for himself, one in which Brienne is deeply ingrained because, well because she just happened to be there and shared his agony.

Also, she was the first one who wasn't afraid to speak directly to him ("Why are you so craven?" when he just was waiting death after the maiming), something that Jaime, as a Lannister of the Rock is not used to. He has always had a station above everyone else around him.

Finally, when his penis stirred under the water after seeing her naked in the bathtub might have been the indication that it was something real. Not that he realizes it, he still thinks "Why am I telling this absurd ugly child?", which means that on a conscious level he still doesn't think much of her, but at the end of this chapter he collapses and she calls for help for the kingslayer and he thinks "Jaime, my name is Jaime", which is an indication that he wants her to see him as himself and not a monster, while up to this point he didn't give a fig about the perception that the rest of the world had about him.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

On January 24, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Ever Dream said:

I'm certain he mentioned it to Cersei at some point, they shared everything with each other, to an alarming degree. He might of told Tyrion but if he did Tyrion never thinks about it or mentions it to anyone as far as I can remember, so who knows? As for Tywin I seriously doubt Jaime told him. I'm sure that Jaime earned a lot of respect from him by choosing his family over the Kingsguard and killing his enemy for him, why ruin that by telling Tywin the real reason that he committed regicide?

So other than Cersei I seriously doubt he told anyone else before he confesses it in the books, why bother? Nobody cared about the reasons behind it and Jaime understood that.

That's a great answer.

[Jaime4Brienne]

4 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I don't want to contradict GRRM's statement, after all he is the author and knows why he wrote what he wrote, but I've also read that sometimes the characters' motives escape the author.

I think that Jaime opened to Brienne because she is the only real personal relationship he has, you know, as a peer or even a friend. Before her, he only had colleagues (the KG), family, or enemies. But after his hand was cut, and realizing that without it he was nothing, he had to create a new identity for himself, one in which Brienne is deeply ingrained because, well because she just happened to be there and shared his agony.

Also, she was the first one who wasn't afraid to speak directly to him ("Why are you so craven?" when he just was waiting death after the maiming), something that Jaime, as a Lannister of the Rock is not used to. He has always had a station above everyone else around him.

Finally, when his penis stirred under the water after seeing her naked in the bathtub might have been the indication that it was something real. Not that he realizes it, he still thinks "Why am I telling this absurd ugly child?", which means that on a conscious level he still doesn't think much of her, but at the end of this chapter he collapses and she calls for help for the kingslayer and he thinks "Jaime, my name is Jaime", which is an indication that he wants her to see him as himself and not a monster, while up to this point he didn't give a fig about the perception that the rest of the world had about him.

I love this answer.

[dornishdame]

4 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I don't want to contradict GRRM's statement, after all he is the author and knows why he wrote what he wrote, but I've also read that sometimes the characters' motives escape the author.

I think that Jaime opened to Brienne because she is the only real personal relationship he has, you know, as a peer or even a friend. Before her, he only had colleagues (the KG), family, or enemies. But after his hand was cut, and realizing that without it he was nothing, he had to create a new identity for himself, one in which Brienne is deeply ingrained because, well because she just happened to be there and shared his agony.

Also, she was the first one who wasn't afraid to speak directly to him ("Why are you so craven?" when he just was waiting death after the maiming), something that Jaime, as a Lannister of the Rock is not used to. He has always had a station above everyone else around him.

Finally, when his penis stirred under the water after seeing her naked in the bathtub might have been the indication that it was something real. Not that he realizes it, he still thinks "Why am I telling this absurd ugly child?", which means that on a conscious level he still doesn't think much of her, but at the end of this chapter he collapses and she calls for help for the kingslayer and he thinks "Jaime, my name is Jaime", which is an indication that he wants her to see him as himself and not a monster, while up to this point he didn't give a fig about the perception that the rest of the world had about him.

This, for me, is a great summation of the relationship between Brienne and Jaime. She challenges him and his perception of himself in ways that Cersei never could. And I think that he recognizes her sense of honor and recalls that once upon a time he aspired to be an Arthur Dayne, though life has taken him down a very different path. Brienne helps him see that what is below the surface is more important than what we see at face value. Brienne is, for me, a great contrast to Cersei; Brienne is ugly on the outside and beautiful on the inside, while Cersei is her polar opposite in that regard. And losing his hand, not being as physically whole as he was, helps Jaime realize this. 

[Cinderblocks]

It never  made much sense to me.  I think he would have told Tywin and Tywin would have every reason to propagate the idea that the Lannisters saved Kings Landing.

I never thought about what best branch brought up, but I don't see what would stop Tywin from adjusting the narrative to better damn Aerys.

The only theory on this that makes sense is that he has a guilty self-hatred and he wants to be Kingslayer to abuse himself.

[Dolorous22]

I think he did, why wouldn't he? I imagine him telling other Lords that the mad King planned on burning KL and the other Lords were more inclined to think that Jaime did it purely because daddy was outside the gates. What's more, I believe Jaime stopped peddling the story when it became clear that nobody cared/believed him. It's one of many reasons he's quietly pissed off throughout the story. 

People believe what they want to believe and the Lannisters have given people plenty of reason to gossip as it is without stories of wildfire thrown in. A lot of people also over simplify situations to suit their prejudices.  

On the face of it - Jaime had everything to gain from killing his King. That's the story people will choose to believe. That, and he fucks his sister. 

[Cinderblocks]

3 hours ago, Dolorous22 said:

I think he did, why wouldn't he? I imagine him telling other Lords that the mad King planned on burning KL and the other Lords were more inclined to think that Jaime did it purely because daddy was outside the gates. What's more, I believe Jaime stopped peddling the story when it became clear that nobody cared/believed him. It's one of many reasons he's quietly pissed off throughout the story. 

People believe what they want to believe and the Lannisters have given people plenty of reason to gossip as it is without stories of wildfire thrown in. A lot of people also over simplify situations to suit their prejudices.  

On the face of it - Jaime had everything to gain from killing his King. That's the story people will choose to believe. That, and he fucks his sister. 

 The smallfolk believe what they will but there must surely be enough people in on such a plot that a convincing inquiry.  Tywin may not have cared what folk thought one way or the other, but there's potential gain in it and nothing lost.