Would Cersei have cheated on Rhaegar?

[Blade of Sunlight]

Just now, Hangover of the Morning said:

Wrong. Cersei's doing everything to fulfill the prophecy. It's not even a prophecy, just palm reading. 

I find it even more horrific that she's able to murder someone she considers her friend. 

No, she is inadvertently fulfilling the prophecy while trying to avoid it, so if that was what she was doing with Melara it would mean that while trying to save Melara's life she inadvertently killed her.

[Anath]

Cersei might be scared/fascinated with the prophecy but what sealed Melara's fate was her overreaching - in Cersei's eyes. She reached for Jaime whom Cersei considered hers. At age 10, the vast majority of children have gotten over this proprietorial instinct. It doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that Cersei knew how to control her impulses. She'd have been unable to control them in her marriage to Rhaegar or Jaime as well. It could never not end up in cheating.

[Blade of Sunlight]

4 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Jaime didn't leave Cersei. He went away temporarily to do his job. Cersei slept with Lancel while Jaime was fighting in Riverlands. It's the equivalent of cheating on your husband when he's on a business trip.

Except she didn't want him to go and they are not married, he his her back up and she is more maniac than in the Rhaegar alternate scenario.

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, Hangover of the Morning said:

Wrong. Cersei's doing everything to fulfill the prophecy. It's not even a prophecy, just palm reading. 

I find it even more horrific that she's able to murder someone she considers her friend. 

Ok, so you miss my point.

She considered her as her friend genuinely in her mind after so many years.

If she felt so uncomfortable that she had to kill her, do you think she will call her as her last friend in her mind?

Sure, she will still name her as friend in front of other people, but not in her mind.

 

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

So here is the bias and unfairness.

Ned loved Lyanna, then? a bother loved his only sister, so this sister is a good person? Jaime loved Cersei too.

Stood up for underdog Howland, so Lyanna is a good person! a real hero! a symbol of justice!

Firstly, Since when Howland is underdog? He is the heir and future ruler of Greywatch, descendent of Marsh king, he has blood tie with House Stark. Lyanna was shouting that: this is my father's bannerman! She is not helping a random commoner. We do not know if it is a common peasant boy who was beaten, Lyanna would do the same thing or not. No idea at all.

By the way, how does Lyanna know that Howland did not do anything bad and three squires had some reason to beat him? How does she know that Howland did not beat one of them, then two others came to join? Did she do some investigation and talk? No, she saw this guy is from a Northern house, then she immediately showed up to beat other people with sword. Honestly, this reminded that, some parents decided that if their children got beaten, then it must be the fault of the other children.

 

 

 

 

We know that Ned Stark was a good person.  We know that Jamie Lannister was not a good person.  Thus, their love of their sisters can be judged accordingly.  Ned also wasn't having a sexual relationship with his sister, which reasonably um, 'colors' Jamie's view, the same Jamie Lannister who out to find Arya with the intent of cutting off her hand.  Again, we know who these two men are and which one is the better man.  At least I do.

We know what happened to Howland Reed and that the people who were beating him were in the wrong, if we know it, then Lyanna knew it, otherwise, we wouldn't know it either.  When it's 3 against 1, you are the under dog.  When people are calling you names because of your heritage, you are the under dog.  Usually, when a gang of people attacks a single person, the gang is in the wrong, especially since they weren't attacking him for any crime they thought he committed...LOL.

There is no bias or unfairness.  Lynna did not throw anyone down the well.  She did not give anyone over for medical experimentation and torture.  She didn't make everyone around her miserable.

She did run off with Rhaegar, and their failure to communicate what they did and why was the spark that started a war and they need to answer for that.  Hopefully the author will give us an answer as to why they didn't send any messages or what happened there.

 

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

"Melara had turned out to be a greedy schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think of her. She's dead and drowned and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime." -  Cersei V AFFC

 

"[She] repaid my kindness with betrayal. Sansa Stark had done the same. So had Melara Heatherspoon and fat Jeyne Farman when the three of them were girls."   Cersei VII  AFFC

Is this how you think of your friends? Did you even read the books?

 

 

[Cas Stark]

49 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Oh, by the way, even in Cersei's mind, she named melara as her friend. She said somthing like after Melara, she did not have any friend.

That is not a natual thought about a person you thought you needed to push her into a well to death.  

In fact, one thing is, if Cersei murdered Melara, she is fulfiling the prophecy herself.

If Melara can survive, then the prophecy is wrong.

As far as we know, cersei tried very hard to stop the prophecy.

It is possible that the death of Melara made her know the power of prophecy so that this haunted her since then.

 

Yeah, that's how stupid and impulsive she is.  She started the chain of prophecy HERSELF when she pushed Melara down the well.  She further strengthened the chain of prophecy when she aborted Robert's child.  All of this is her doing, she created the reality of the prophecy being true by her own actions.  

[Little Lark]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Mountain was decribed in the book as a person who has nothing postive. This does not exist in the real life.

People can be cruel as mountain or even more in the real life, I agree. But they have humanity at the same time.

In the book, mountain is a typical symbol of evil or "bad person", not a human-being type of figure, so author does not bother to investigate or constuct his mind by POV. Somebody got to be "vallain" in a fantasy book, like orcs in LOTR.

And cersei is not in this category. She is a human being and author gave us POV so that we can follow her thoughts.

 

I'm curious, how would you substantiate that absolutely no people like the Mountain exist in real life? For starters, our information on him comes entirely from other characters, we've never actually been inside his head. Can you definitively prove that he doesn't have any "human" traits?

Furthermore, we hear about people that repeatedly rape, murder, take advantage of others, and show no remorse for their behavior very often. I don't know any of these people, so the only picture I have of their personalities is the one that he media decides to paint. Until someone really does their research and uncovers every detail of their lives from birth to prison, they may as well be just another one-dimensional bad guy. 

GRRM puts a lot of thought into every character he creates. It wouldn't make sense for him to throw in a character that isn't a reflection of humanity in any way shape or form. That would be sloppy.

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

"Melara had turned out to be a greedy schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think of her. She's dead and drowned and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime." -  Cersei V AFFC

 

"[She] repaid my kindness with betrayal. Sansa Stark had done the same. So had Melara Heatherspoon and fat Jeyne Farman when the three of them were girls."   Cersei VII  AFFC

Is this how you think of your friends? Did you even read the books?

 

 

Are you intentionally choosing only the part you feel more useful?

Why you cut off  "little" which make this sentence more friendly? and also deleted that "ill"?

Are we reading the same book?

Look at the bolded part, is this the correct way to describe a person she intentionally murdered?

Honestly, in this sentence, I do feel Cersei thought Melara as her friend. she enjoyed her friendship then she found she loved Jaime and wanted to have Jaime. So cersei decided that even her best friend can not be trusted. Can be a little gold-digger. Then she said, since she died, I should not think ill of her.

Where did you see this is proof that she murdered her?

 

Here is the complete quote:

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She's dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

 

 

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, Anath said:

It isn't about the benefit of the doubt, though. A big part of the Lyanna praising comes from Robert being supposedly such a terrible human being. Of course no woman would want him! Of course Lyanna is entitled to the way her own body would be used! Rickard Stark is terrible for making his precious daughter do his bidding! She isn't his chattel! How dare you judge Lyanna by modern standards! She didn't love Robert! She was blinded by the Prince Charming because she was a young girl! But when it comes to Cersei, suddenly rules change. She should have never been unfaithful to her husband, the same terrible Robert who was so bad for precious Lya. She agreed to marry Robert only because she wanted his crown! She wasn't even attracted to him the way pure Lya was attracted to Rhaegar (in her own words, she was). Cersei should have followed the same chauvinistic rules that were too cruel for Lyanna. Let's judge Cersei by modern standards! She didn't even love Robert! She was... Well, let's forget that she was just two years older than Lyanna and had only her unloving father's example to follow!

It's double standards. As for the benefit of doubt, we also have some things about Lyanna that imply something other than a kind person and zero regrets for running away, indirectly causing the deaths in her own family.

Cersei is truly  abhorrent. But if people want to excuse Lyanna with owning her body and her feelings, they should award Cersei the same rights.

I don't praise Lyanna for those things, but then I don't think Robert was a bad guy.  Lyanna deserves praise for realizing that Robert would never be faithful to her, for being perceptive enough to see what his true nature was....but that doesn't excuse running off with Rhaegar without a word to anyone and causing indirectly the deaths of her brother and father and starting a war.

You have to live in the society you live in.  If you want to go renegade, you are going to pay the price.  Cersei, however, does really neither.  She doesn't go renegade like Lyanna did, she sticks with Robert because she wants to be queen.  Instead of fleeing the marriage, as she could have done, she stays in it, but commits multiple treasons as well as making herself and her husband as miserable as possible.  She tries to have it both ways.  She wants the power that comes with being Robert's queen but she wants her brother as well.  That's the cowards choice.

Lyanna went renegade and she paid a steep, steep price, that people are still paying long after her death.  But, at least she didn't take the Cersei way which would have been to split the difference, to marry Robert, and take Rhaegar as her lover on the side, and then later on killing him.

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Are you intentionally choosing only the part you feel more useful?

Why you cut off  "little" which make this sentence more friendly? and also deleted that "ill"?

Are we reading the same book?

Look at the bolded part, is this the correct way to describe a person she intentionally murdered?

Honestly, in this sentence, I do feel Cersei thought Melara as her friend. she enjoyed her friendship then she found she loved Jaime and wanted to have Jaime. So cersei decided that even her best friend can not be trusted. Can be a little gold-digger. Then she said, since she died, I should not think ill of her.

Where did you see this is proof that she murdered her?

 

Here is the complete quote:

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She's dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

 

 

 

The proof is in the prophecy wording+Cersei's memory of Melara screaming from inside the well+seeing a vision of her dripping wet during the walk of shame.  2+2=4.  She pushed her down the well.  I have no doubt of it.

[purple-eyes]

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, that's how stupid and impulsive she is.  She started the chain of prophecy HERSELF when she pushed Melara down the well.  She further strengthened the chain of prophecy when she aborted Robert's child.  All of this is her doing, she created the reality of the prophecy being true by her own actions.  

To be fair, the prophecy did not tell her that her three children were not from Robert.

She very likely assumed that those three children are Robert's, which may even help her to make that decision to abort her child of Robert.

Although I have no idea if she aborted him mainly due to her hatred over Robert or something else, but technically, this served as stopping the prophecy, not fulfiling the prophecy.

 

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, Anath said:

 

[purple-eyes]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't praise Lyanna for those things, but then I don't think Robert was a bad guy.  Lyanna deserves praise for realizing that Robert would never be faithful to her, for being perceptive enough to see what his true nature was....but that doesn't excuse running off with Rhaegar without a word to anyone and causing indirectly the deaths of her brother and father and starting a war.

You have to live in the society you live in.  If you want to go renegade, you are going to pay the price.  Cersei, however, does really neither.  She doesn't go renegade like Lyanna did, she sticks with Robert because she wants to be queen.  Instead of fleeing the marriage, as she could have done, she stays in it, but commits multiple treasons as well as making herself and her husband as miserable as possible.  She tries to have it both ways.  She wants the power that comes with being Robert's queen but she wants her brother as well.  That's the cowards choice.

Lyanna went renegade and she paid a steep, steep price, that people are still paying long after her death.  But, at least she didn't take the Cersei way which would have been to split the difference, to marry Robert, and take Rhaegar as her lover on the side, and then later on killing him.

Just want to correct you, Lyanna seeked her happiness and freedom, but she did not pay a steep price, it was brandon and Rickard who were murdered and thousands of people lost their lives, including completely innocent children of rhaegar.

Lyanna died of childbirth, which likely due to bacteria, and this happened to many many women in this universe.

What steep price did she pay? Was she roasted by fire? was she killed by a tyroshi device? was she killed in the battle for no good reason? was she raped? was her head crushed on the wall? was she stabbed by 50 times?

 

[Cas Stark]

OMG this quote function sucks.

 

I don't know what you are talking about now.  Cersei knows her children are Jamie's not Robert's.  She is clear that she did this on purpose and the only time she apparently messed up with her strategy, she has an abortion.

The prophecy says she will have 3 children.  Not 1 or 2 or 4 or 5.  She has 3.  Whose doing is that?  Cersei's.

She didn't understand the prophecy when she was 10, but she did later.  She does now.  I'm sure she did as an adult as she saw Robert fathering bastards and saw herself ensuring that he fathered no children on her, but having her brother's children.

[Anath]

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't praise Lyanna for those things, but then I don't think Robert was a bad guy.  Lyanna deserves praise for realizing that Robert would never be faithful to her, for being perceptive enough to see what his true nature was....but that doesn't excuse running off with Rhaegar without a word to anyone and causing indirectly the deaths of her brother and father and starting a war.

You have to live in the society you live in.  If you want to go renegade, you are going to pay the price.  Cersei, however, does really neither.  She doesn't go renegade like Lyanna did, she sticks with Robert because she wants to be queen.  Instead of fleeing the marriage, as she could have done, she stays in it, but commits multiple treasons as well as making herself and her husband as miserable as possible.  She tries to have it both ways.  She wants the power that comes with being Robert's queen but she wants her brother as well.  That's the cowards choice.

Lyanna went renegade and she paid a steep, steep price, that people are still paying long after her death.  But, at least she didn't take the Cersei way which would have been to split the difference, to marry Robert, and take Rhaegar as her lover on the side, and then later on killing him.

You don't praise Lyanna but many do. Especially the particular poster purple-eyes was replying to.

Lyanna didn't go renegade. She hid away. She didn't give up on anything. She planned to be Rhaegar's mistress or queen, enjoying great privileges still. And the way she died doesn't speak of someone who thought she had paid a hard price for her happiness. If Rhaegar had won at the Trident, she would have lived with him happily ever after, with or without Ned alive. Rickard and Brandon's death clearly didn't deter her into wishing to undo what she had done. She only paid because her body betrayed her. If we presume she was somewhat regretful for what came to pass, she only paid because she was forced to.

In this vein, Cersei also paid - she was forced to pay.

And we aren't talking about all that  a psychopath like Cersei did compared to all that presumably normal Lyanna did. We're talking about cheating explicitly. Cersei is bad enough without turning her cheating into something this unforgivable while glossing over Lyanna's action. Cersei passed Jaime's children as Robert's, Lyanna basically signed all Westeros for the second Dance of Dragons or Blackfyre Rebellion. What makes one of those choices so explicitly better than the other? If anything, Cersei's secret remaining hidden would have saved the realm the bloody war it ended up in. There was almost no way to save it from the fight between Elia's and Lyanna's descendants.

[purple-eyes]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

OMG this quote function sucks.

 

I don't know what you are talking about now.  Cersei knows her children are Jamie's not Robert's.  She is clear that she did this on purpose and the only time she apparently messed up with her strategy, she has an abortion.

The prophecy says she will have 3 children.  Not 1 or 2 or 4 or 5.  She has 3.  Whose doing is that?  Cersei's.

She didn't understand the prophecy when she was 10, but she did later.  She does now.  I'm sure she did as an adult as she saw Robert fathering bastards and saw herself ensuring that he fathered no children on her, but having her brother's children.

This is indeed a hard thing to express and English is not my first language. So maybe I am confusing you.

I have no idea why Cersei wanted to abort that child besides her hatred over Robert. But let us guess from the prophecy,.

From the point of prophecy, Here is the quote:

Cersei: Will the king and I have children?
Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

So logically, cersei assumed she will have three children from king Robert by prophecy. SInce she is married to the king. technically we all will assume these three children are from her and Robert. So if she did not have children from King robert, then the prophecy will likely be interrupted.

Of course this is my speculation, but no matter what is her motivation for abortion, in the logic, it is something which will stop Cersei from having children with Robert. thus will prevent the prophecy.

 

So briefly, Cersei did not birth three bastard children to fulfil the prophecy.

Quite opposite, She possibly (I do not know for sure) thought since they are not children of King Robert, then she would be fine. Prophecy would not fulfil.  

 

 

-------------

Oh, is this a foreshadow that Jaime will become king on day?

He became king in the original plot actually. And he had a couple of hints as king in the first book (which was written based on the original plot).

 

 

[Cas Stark]

Of course she went renegade.  She ran away with Rhaegar in defiance of her father and in doing so she abandons her betrothal to Robert.  We don't know unfortunately what their plan was, or if there was a plan, if Rhaegar was going to get rid of Elia or have two wives or what.  So, it's more difficult to judge the level of irresponsibility that would attach, but running away with a married man is not something to be praised, nor is running out on your fiance and leaving him to believe you've been kidnapped, presuming she did it willingly.

Her father and brother end up dead.  This is a steep price.  Many of her father's bannermen end up dead also.  Arthur Dayne ends up dead.  She's at the TOJ when the kingsguard are killed defending her.  Another price.  Her son grows up a bastard with no heritage or name or knowledge of who he really is.  Another price.  Oh yeah, Rhaegar also dies.  Another price.

All we really know about her death is that she's still clutching Rhaegar's roses, which tells me she loved him, she's weak and her last words are highly suggestive that she got her brother to promise to protect her child...I doubt there was much time for her to go into the guilt she felt about causing a war as she was dying.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Are you intentionally choosing only the part you feel more useful?

Why you cut off  "little" which make this sentence more friendly? and also deleted that "ill"?

Are we reading the same book?

Look at the bolded part, is this the correct way to describe a person she intentionally murdered?

Honestly, in this sentence, I do feel Cersei thought Melara as her friend. she enjoyed her friendship then she found she loved Jaime and wanted to have Jaime. So cersei decided that even her best friend can not be trusted. Can be a little gold-digger. Then she said, since she died, I should not think ill of her.

Where did you see this is proof that she murdered her?

 

Here is the complete quote:

Cersei had not had a friend she so enjoyed since Melara Hetherspoon, and Melara had turned out to be a greedy little schemer with ideas above her station. I should not think ill of her. She's dead and drowned, and she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime.

 

 

Really, this is your evidence that Cersei liked Melara and thought of her as a friend.

There really is no point in discussing anything with you. 

[purple-eyes]

25 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't praise Lyanna for those things, but then I don't think Robert was a bad guy.  Lyanna deserves praise for realizing that Robert would never be faithful to her, for being perceptive enough to see what his true nature was....but that doesn't excuse running off with Rhaegar without a word to anyone and causing indirectly the deaths of her brother and father and starting a war.

You have to live in the society you live in.  If you want to go renegade, you are going to pay the price.  Cersei, however, does really neither.  She doesn't go renegade like Lyanna did, she sticks with Robert because she wants to be queen.  Instead of fleeing the marriage, as she could have done, she stays in it, but commits multiple treasons as well as making herself and her husband as miserable as possible.  She tries to have it both ways.  She wants the power that comes with being Robert's queen but she wants her brother as well.  That's the cowards choice.

Lyanna went renegade and she paid a steep, steep price, that people are still paying long after her death.  But, at least she didn't take the Cersei way which would have been to split the difference, to marry Robert, and take Rhaegar as her lover on the side, and then later on killing him.

And you are so wrong that Lyanna is brave and went renegade.

If she is really brave and renegade, she would behave like Blackfish, or prince of Dragonflies, announce this to her family and robert, and give up everything for her forbidden love, pay the price she should pay, not make other people pay for her.

This is not bravery, this is cowardness. Same with Rhaegar.

She can declare she would rather to be a commoner than marry Robert, give up her title and rich life, make herself unfit to marry Robert (Robert would not marry a commoner I guess),  then pursue her freedom and happiness, live as a commoner with her true love rhaegar in Essos as a sellsword couple. Nobody would blame her.

But no, she wants everything. She wanted to be a high born lady, maybe queen of Westeros. she did not want to go to Essos to be a commoner.

Then she made other people pay for her.