Waves of Night and Moon Blood: Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast, episode 3

[LmL]

Joel 2:30 and 31: 

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fireand billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

That's a nice one @Evolett. If you don't mind I'll add that to my Lucifer means Lightbringer essay where I quote Revelation a bit. Terrific.

[Evolett]

35 minutes ago, LmL said:

Joel 2:30 and 31: 

I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fireand billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

That's a nice one @Evolett. If you don't mind I'll add that to my Lucifer means Lightbringer essay where I quote Revelation a bit. Terrific.

Sure, by all means, it expresses everything - heaven and earth, blood and fire, sun to darkness and moon to blood. Perfect for your work 

[hiemal]

A spitball take on LB, what if:

The plunging of the sword into NN's heart was figuratively speaking about incestously stealing her maidenhood and causing her death in childbirth, LB is their child, and the stage is set rather nicely Jon Snow or Dany?

The moon/pearl/maidenhead connection certainly satisfies the "moon cracking" imagery.

3 attempts, first he tried to quench the blade in water right? Night's Queen, perhaps?

Next in a lion, I think? His tiger-bride.

And the third time was the charm.

I'm not sure about the timing of his "experiments" or his aim but it seems to have a certain plausibility.

[Stannis in the middle]

Damn son,  3 hours?!?! 

[LmL]

50 minutes ago, Stannis in the middle said:

Damn son,  3 hours?!?! 

Ok... that's fair...

I can only tell you that the last episode, which was like 2:20, and this one, and also a shorter one about the Viper and the Mountain I had to cut, were originally all a part of one essay about bloodstone. And there's more examples of these same concepts, many in fact. It's a bitch to try to narrow this stuff down, it really is, because George is weaving these metaphors through basically every chapter. 

Also, I break it down in sections to make easy stopping points - if you want, just pretend like I gave 11 short podcasts in one file...   there, see, all better.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

A spitball take on LB, what if:

The plunging of the sword into NN's heart was figuratively speaking about incestously stealing her maidenhood and causing her death in childbirth, LB is their child, and the stage is set rather nicely Jon Snow or Dany?

The moon/pearl/maidenhead connection certainly satisfies the "moon cracking" imagery.

3 attempts, first he tried to quench the blade in water right? Night's Queen, perhaps?

Next in a lion, I think? His tiger-bride.

And the third time was the charm.

I'm not sure about the timing of his "experiments" or his aim but it seems to have a certain plausibility.

It is about that. I mean you're getting a bit specific, but yeah, it's about intercourse and impregnation and the possibility that a mother can die in childbirth. I suspect the Amethyst Empress / Nissa Nissa did have a child with Azor Ahai / The Bloodstone A-hole, perhaps more than one. 

If the NK = AA, then the NQ would have been the final bride. The three forgings thing is a fucking inkblot if I ever saw one. I don't think it's as literal as that, however. I identify them with three phases of the sun - water for sunrise, when it is cold and there is dew on the ground (morning light / dawn light is usually "pale" in ASOIAF), the lion with the midday sun, bright and golden, and the slaying of NN corresponds with sunset (sunsets in ASOIAF are always the color of blood or a blood bruise). I wrote an essay about that a while back, actually, and further matched it with the cycle of the seasons. 

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

33 minutes ago, LmL said:

It is about that. I mean you're getting a bit specific, but yeah, it's about intercourse and impregnation and the possibility that a mother can die in childbirth. I suspect the Amethyst Empress / Nissa Nissa did have a child with Azor Ahai / The Bloodstone A-hole, perhaps more than one. 

If the NK = AA, then the NQ would have been the final bride. The three forgings thing is a fucking inkblot if I ever saw one. I don't think it's as literal as that, however. I identify them with three phases of the sun - water for sunrise, when it is cold and there is dew on the ground (morning light / dawn light is usually "pale" in ASOIAF), the lion with the midday sun, bright and golden, and the slaying of NN corresponds with sunset (sunsets in ASOIAF are always the color of blood or a blood bruise). I wrote an essay about that a while back, actually, and further matched it with the cycle of the seasons. 

@LmL

Do you think Robb Stark's romance in the show/books is a nod to him being a failed Bloodstone Emperor of sorts?

Like the Bloodstone Emperor who took a Tiger-woman for a wife, Robb took a Tiger-Woman (Talisa Maegry in the show, the Maegyr family in the books is part of the Tiger faction. In fact, the Maegyrs are one of the Triarchs in Volantis) for a wife. He cast down his Old Gods to get married under a Faith-of-the-7 Ceremony, unlike Sansa who was married under the Weirwood trees. 

[Elephants] are the "Traders/Economists" and [Tigers] are the Warriors.  

Talisa-Maegyr-the-Cruel-bitch i.e. Female-Maegor-the-Cruel

 (What is more cruel than pretending to love someone? Very few things are more cruel than pretending to love someone when you don't.)  

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Malaquo_Maegyr

GRRM had this to say about the Talisa/Jeyne switcheroo: "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" (In the books she had 3, in the movie Gone With The Wind she only had 1, implying that both are correct, and the truth exists somewhere in the middle."

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

A spitball take on LB, what if:

The plunging of the sword into NN's heart was figuratively speaking about incestously stealing her maidenhood and causing her death in childbirth, LB is their child, and the stage is set rather nicely Jon Snow or Dany?

The moon/pearl/maidenhead connection certainly satisfies the "moon cracking" imagery.

3 attempts, first he tried to quench the blade in water right? Night's Queen, perhaps?

Next in a lion, I think? His tiger-bride.

And the third time was the charm.

I'm not sure about the timing of his "experiments" or his aim but it seems to have a certain plausibility.

Actually, I suspect you're onto something here. Consider this:

The first attempt in water = Night's Queen. NQ was a corpse bride. I just realized it's the same idea I had regarding Ashara's suicidal jump from the palestone sword to a watery death - forging Dawn in the heart of a dead woman. I also see the NQ as a Fisher Queen pearl maiden because they 'wove' moonlight, in darkness and they are associated with water and mermaids. It just occurred to me that one of the mermaid courtesans of Braavos drowned. 

The lion - tiger bride - sounds good to me. My take on the tiger-bride: she was a woman of the Lengi, capable of skinchanging cats (the Lengi golden eyes, the ten thousand tigers on the island etc). Drogo's killing of the white lion of the Dothraki plains may also represent this second forging. Brings Cersei and the maegi's valonqar prophecy to mind as well. Cersei is a lioness, either Jamie or Tyrion the little brother. Note also the little brother/little sister thing going on here - Arya, frequently called 'little sister' by Jon, disarms Joffery, throwing his sword Lion's Tooth in the river (Lion's Tooth is also called Lion's claw at times, hm.)

3rd attempt - the heart of a living woman, giving rise to dragons and LB. 

So the three attempts could also represent three different swords. First forging creates Dawn, second forging produces a regular Valyrian sword - it has the sun's fire but not the blood? Cersei's and Joff's golden hair - that's the sun + her death is to be by strangling = no blood. 

Finally NN's living heart adds the blood, soul, strength etc. 

Now, I'm thinking Huzhor Amai's three wives also add to the puzzle. If HA = BSE/AA, then he had three wives.

His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, the Cymer wife made his armour, so the Gipps wife must be the daughter of the king of the Hairy Men. And HA turned his pelt into a cloak - sounds very Bolton to me. His daughter would be the NQ corpse bride. The Cymer = NN and the Chariot lady the lion. Hm, does this help us any further? 

[Evolett]

35 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

@LmL

Do you think Robb Stark's romance in the show/books is a nod to him being a failed Bloodstone Emperor of sorts?

Like the Bloodstone Emperor who took a Tiger-woman for a wife, Robb took a Tiger-Woman (Talisa Maegry in the show, the Maegyr family in the books is part of the Tiger faction. In fact, the Maegyrs are one of the Triarchs in Volantis) for a wife. He cast down his Old Gods to get married under a Faith-of-the-7 Ceremony, unlike Sansa who was married under the Weirwood trees. 

[Elephants] are the "Traders/Economists" and [Tigers] are the Warriors.  

Talisa-Maegyr-the-Cruel-bitch i.e. Female-Maegor-the-Cruel

 (What is more cruel than pretending to love someone? Very few things are more cruel than pretending to love someone when you don't.)  

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Malaquo_Maegyr

GRRM had this to say about the Talisa/Jeyne switcheroo: "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" (In the books she had 3, in the movie Gone With The Wind she only had 1, implying that both are correct, and the truth exists somewhere in the middle."

I must admit to having considered the possiblity, especially because of the imagery conveyed by sewing his direwolfs head on his body - I interpret that as not being in control of his 'inner wolf' and expand on that a bit in an essay on warging and skinchanging. But I never took the idea further.

Looks like we need a tiger-woman archetype - what you point out about pretending to love someone is very true. This also applies to Cersei, whom I mention in the previous post - she's a lioness/tiger-woman too, she never loved Robert either. 

Interesting and definitely worth considering. 

ETA - you've got me going on this... puts Catelyn and Lysa Tully in perspective too - Catelyn killed and thrown in the river / Lysa forced to marry a man she did not love, poisoning him, pushed to death by the person she did love .. similar theme as Cersei...

[LmL]

40 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

@LmL

Do you think Robb Stark's romance in the show/books is a nod to him being a failed Bloodstone Emperor of sorts?

Like the Bloodstone Emperor who took a Tiger-woman for a wife, Robb took a Tiger-Woman (Talisa Maegry in the show, the Maegyr family in the books is part of the Tiger faction. In fact, the Maegyrs are one of the Triarchs in Volantis) for a wife. He cast down his Old Gods to get married under a Faith-of-the-7 Ceremony, unlike Sansa who was married under the Weirwood trees. 

[Elephants] are the "Traders/Economists" and [Tigers] are the Warriors.  

Talisa-Maegyr-the-Cruel-bitch i.e. Female-Maegor-the-Cruel

 (What is more cruel than pretending to love someone? Very few things are more cruel than pretending to love someone when you don't.)  

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Malaquo_Maegyr

GRRM had this to say about the Talisa/Jeyne switcheroo: "How many children did Scarlet O'hara have?" (In the books she had 3, in the movie Gone With The Wind she only had 1, implying that both are correct, and the truth exists somewhere in the middle."

Interesting points... it's an intriguing idea on its own that the show might be putting that level of thought into things. I follow your logic; he was promised to one but wed another, creating a bvit of a king and two brides scenario, and in that case, the second one (Jeyne / Talisa) should be Tiger Woman, if that pattern holds. Jeyne is a lion, which is close enough, and Talisa a Tiger, as you have shown. The Maegyrs are Valyrian, and the potential "Maegar" wordplay reinforces that, while the Westerlings are red lions, which is as good as a red dragon. I've discussed lions and dragons as prime solar symbols, so you could in fact draw a symbolic parallel between Jeyne and Talisa.

Now, is this intentional, or coincidence? With George's writing, I have identified multiple instances of the same type of clue-hiding and the same patterns, so I can confidently rule out coincidence... but I've not really scrutinized the show for that kind of attention to detail and symbolic thinking. I'll have to be on there look out for it. Have you found anything else in the show that is like this?

And did you see the response I wrote to your earlier comments? 

[LmL]

25 minutes ago, Evolett said:

I must admit to having considered the possiblity, especially because of the imagery conveyed by sewing his direwolfs head on his body - I interpret that as not being in control of his 'inner wolf' and expand on that a bit in an essay on warging and skinchanging. But I never took the idea further.

Looks like we need a tiger-woman archetype - what you point out about pretending to love someone is very true. This also applies to Cersei, whom I mention in the previous post - she's a lioness/tiger-woman too, she never loved Robert either. 

Interesting and definitely worth considering. 

ETA - you've got me going on this... puts Catelyn and Lysa Tully in perspective too - Catelyn killed and thrown in the river / Lysa forced to marry a man she did not love, poisoning him, pushed to death by the person she did love .. similar theme as Cersei...

I'm of the opinion that Jeyne did not love Robb, and was in on the scheme. Perhaps she fell or him at some point, but I am pretty certain she was in on the plan to use love potions and seduce. 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Actually, I suspect you're onto something here. Consider this:

The first attempt in water = Night's Queen. NQ was a corpse bride. I just realized it's the same idea I had regarding Ashara's suicidal jump from the palestone sword to a watery death - forging Dawn in the heart of a dead woman. I also see the NQ as a Fisher Queen pearl maiden because they 'wove' moonlight, in darkness and they are associated with water and mermaids. It just occurred to me that one of the mermaid courtesans of Braavos drowned. 

The lion - tiger bride - sounds good to me. My take on the tiger-bride: she was a woman of the Lengi, capable of skinchanging cats (the Lengi golden eyes, the ten thousand tigers on the island etc). Drogo's killing of the white lion of the Dothraki plains may also represent this second forging. Brings Cersei and the maegi's valonqar prophecy to mind as well. Cersei is a lioness, either Jamie or Tyrion the little brother. Note also the little brother/little sister thing going on here - Arya, frequently called 'little sister' by Jon, disarms Joffery, throwing his sword Lion's Tooth in the river (Lion's Tooth is also called Lion's claw at times, hm.)

3rd attempt - the heart of a living woman, giving rise to dragons and LB. 

So the three attempts could also represent three different swords. First forging creates Dawn, second forging produces a regular Valyrian sword - it has the sun's fire but not the blood? Cersei's and Joff's golden hair - that's the sun + her death is to be by strangling = no blood. 

Finally NN's living heart adds the blood, soul, strength etc. 

Now, I'm thinking Huzhor Amai's three wives also add to the puzzle. If HA = BSE/AA, then he had three wives.

His Zoqora wife drove his chariot, the Cymer wife made his armour, so the Gipps wife must be the daughter of the king of the Hairy Men. And HA turned his pelt into a cloak - sounds very Bolton to me. His daughter would be the NQ corpse bride. The Cymer = NN and the Chariot lady the lion. Hm, does this help us any further? 

Hmmm- in play atm we have Tyrion, Snow, and Dany. If the order of their births were changed so that Jon were older than Tyrion we would have a perfect modern reconstruction of the original LB forging with Dany and her dragons as the final success, the new Lightbringer.

But maybe that's the point? A re-balancing?

That leaves us with 4 iterations:

The AA legend: water, lion, NN

Huzhor Amai , whose chronology I can't guess

The probable BSE chronology: AE, tiger bride, NQ

and the "modern" set: lion, ice, NN (?)

 

[Stannis in the middle]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Ok... that's fair...

I can only tell you that the last episode, which was like 2:20, and this one, and also a shorter one about the Viper and the Mountain I had to cut, were originally all a part of one essay about bloodstone. And there's more examples of these same concepts, many in fact. It's a bitch to try to narrow this stuff down, it really is, because George is weaving these metaphors through basically every chapter. 

Also, I break it down in sections to make easy stopping points - if you want, just pretend like I gave 11 short podcasts in one file...   there, see, all better.

Cant you just tell me who Azor Ahor and TPtwP are!? (And what happened to Ashara and Arthur Dayne)..

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, Stannis in the middle said:

Cant you just tell me who Azor Ahor and TPtwP are!? (And what happened to Ashara and Arthur Dayne)..

We are all Azor Ahai reborn. Every one of us. 

Both Daynes are dead, lol. That's my opinion. But who knows. Almost dying and actually dying are more or less the same, symbolically speaking, so I don't have any insight there. 

Kidodng aside, Jon and Dany are Azor Ahai reborn, but Dany represents the offspring of the fire moon and Jon the ice moon, according to my theory. 

[Stannis in the middle]

14 minutes ago, LmL said:

We are all Azor Ahai reborn. Every one of us. 

Both Daynes are dead, lol. That's my opinion. But who knows. Almost dying and actually dying are more or less the same, symbolically speaking, so I don't have any insight there. 

Kidodng aside, Jon and Dany are Azor Ahai reborn, but Dany represents the offspring of the fire moon and Jon the ice moon, according to my theory. 

But Dany's a lamo! (unless it turns out one of her parents is a Stark or a Dayne)

Why does Mance parallel Rhaegar so so much?? Mance is even mentioned in the very first Bran chapter. Ned even says we have nothing to fear from Mance. MANCE MUST BE RHAEGAR! (i think at the very least GRRM kept it open so that he could go down that route if he decided to at a later stage)

And regarding Ashara: No body = no death. I've read fiction before. I aint no dummy.

[LmL]

21 minutes ago, Stannis in the middle said:

But Dany's a lamo! (unless it turns out one of her parents is a Stark or a Dayne)

Why does Mance parallel Rhaegar so so much?? Mance is even mentioned in the very first Bran chapter. Ned even says we have nothing to fear from Mance. MANCE MUST BE RHAEGAR! (i think at the very least GRRM kept it open so that he could go down that route if he decided to at a later stage)

And regarding Ashara: No body = no death. I've read fiction before. I aint no dummy.

Alright, I'll concede there's a chance Ashara isn't dead. I'm only guessing though, I don't have any special clues about it, so take it for what it is, idle speculation. 

Rhaegar however is quite dead, and Mance cannot be Rhaegar, for like a thousand reasons. I do understand why some people think this, because as you point out, they do share a lot of symbolism. Think about both of them playing into the same ASOIAF archetype and you'll have the right idea. Both characters refer to this greater archetype. I will explore that at some point, for sure. 

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Interesting points... it's an intriguing idea on its own that the show might be putting that level of thought into things. I follow your logic; he was promised to one but wed another, creating a bvit of a king and two brides scenario, and in that case, the second one (Jeyne / Talisa) should be Tiger Woman, if that pattern holds. Jeyne is a lion, which is close enough, and Talisa a Tiger, as you have shown. The Maegyrs are Valyrian, and the potential "Maegar" wordplay reinforces that, while the Westerlings are red lions, which is as good as a red dragon. I've discussed lions and dragons as prime solar symbols, so you could in fact draw a symbolic parallel between Jeyne and Talisa.

Now, is this intentional, or coincidence? With George's writing, I have identified multiple instances of the same type of clue-hiding and the same patterns, so I can confidently rule out coincidence... but I've not really scrutinized the show for that kind of attention to detail and symbolic thinking. I'll have to be on there look out for it. Have you found anything else in the show that is like this?

And did you see the response I wrote to your earlier comments? 

@LmL

I can think of 1 other solid example where the show reinforces the books, and a few examples that aren't too convincing. 

Have you heard the theory that Daario = Euron? I don't think it's true, but I think it is possible that Daario may not have Dany's best interest at heart (she certainly doesn't think he does) and Daario may have similar goals to Euron. 

------------------

"Euron's Gifts are poisoned." ~ Victarion

When Daenerys is marching to Mereen, Daario pulls her aside, asks Missandei to give them privacy and gives Dany a gift - a bouquet of 3 flowers. 

(Note: I increased the color saturation slightly on the 2nd and 3rd photos to make it easier to see, since the source video isn't the best quality.) 

1. Dusk Rose
Appearance: (Blue Winter Rose) 
Supposedly cures Fever (Anti-Fire symbolism.) If I had to guess, I'd say that Winter Roses and Dusk Roses are the same plant, Daario may even be lying about the name of this flower, since we only hear it being referred to as Winter Rose in ASOIF. 
Dusk = Darkest Stage of Twilight (Right before the fall of Night.) 

2. Lady's Lace
Appearance: (Bushy White Flowers)
 (Double-Feminine Energy. Lunar Energy. Slavery/Bondage.)

The only other "lace" I recall in ASOIF is Myrish Lace, lace in our world is almost never worn by men, so the title Lady's Lace is redundant and conjures images of Double-Femininity (2 Brides?.)

To give readers an idea of how ridiculous the idea of lace on a male is:
http://www.menstylefashion.com/underwear-men-are-wearing-lace-underwear/

 

Quote

 

This very nontraditional lace boy short comprised of 85% nylon material, 15% spandex definitely got me pondering.

How comfortable on men the biggest question? The idea, of men wearing lace underwear made me giggle. It certainly would create an interesting stir.

 

-Lace implies feminine-energy/sexuality, Lady's Lace implies the same thing twice, in repetition. Since the flower is aptly named after women, and the flower has an Off-White/Eggshell color, I suspect it is a Lunar symbol as well.
-Lace is a delicate material, easily ripped/torn apart. This could indicate the volatile, irrational aspects of a woman (Women are Right-Brained i.e. Intuitive/Emotional and Men are Left-Brained i.e. Reasoning/Logical) - kind of like Dany who has an extremely short fuse, Targaryen-temper, but is still feminine and regal. Dany embodies the fragile, feminine and SEXUAL nature of lace (lace is often used in lingerie, panties and bras.) 
Strangely, Daario does not give any clue as to what Lady's Lace does from a medical standpoint, so it may just be a decorative flower. 

Edit: Just learned that Shiera Seastar, another Targ-bastard with heavy Lunar symbolism, loved to wear Lace. 

Spoiler

Lace also reminds me of floral and tidal patterns/ocean currents. Although we don't really know the stitching patterns of lace ASOIF. Here's a simple, basic lace pattern of lace in our world:

3. Harpy's Gold (Poison)
Appearance: (Red-bushy Flower, with a "fist" in the center)

"No teeth on this one, beautiful, but poisonous." ~Daario <- This is kind of a lie by Daario, because it actually looks like the Harpy's Gold DOES have teeth. Many teeth in fact. 

The female harpy symbolizes slavery, and the Gold might indicate currency and Trading-for-Slaves. If Silver is a Lunar color, Gold is likely a Solar color (I don't recall if you label Gold as a Solar symbol in your essays. I haven't listened to the podcasts just as an fyi.) 

The bushy-appearance of the red flower could be a hint to the red comet breaking up into multiple pieces or raining down hellfire in the form of multiple meteorites. 

Poison is considered a woman/eunuch's weapon, so it's interesting that Daario/Euron would gift Dany a poison flower. However, we know that Healers/Maesters ensnare people by healing them, then gaining their trust, and then betraying them. It's a stretch, but poison can also be symbolic of slow-destruction, kind of like Cersei is going through.

So if we analyze Daario's Bouqet, we get a few hints like:
[Ice][Enslaving][Sun/Fire] or [Ice][Female-Moon][Poisoned-Sun]

 

Or Maybe the Red, White and Blue bouquet is meant to symbolize America and USA is #1. Go America! 

-----

Less convincing examples: 

1. Theon's castration. In the books it is never explicitly stated that Theon is castrated by Ramsay. Theon definitely went through some sexual abuse, perhaps being raped by a male, but I suspect castration is not the ONLY trauma he went through. 

2. Shireen's Sacrifice. GRRM has stated that in the books, Shireen will die. The show has already killed off Shireen. 

3. Rhaego in the House of the Undying. We never see Dany's "dead child" in the books, nor in the show. Mirri simply states that the child was born disfigured (reptile-like) and we never get to see a burial of the child. When Dany sees her child in the House of the Undying, it is an infant or toddler with dark hair, not a newborn baby. And as we know in ASOIF, no corpse = no concrete death. 

I suspect Dany's child was neither deformed nor a stillbirth. Dany seems to be a fertile female and Drogo is DEFINITELY A fertile male. I thought Targ-babies only turn out deformed when the Targ-parents have sex with other Targs, but Drogo is not a Targ, so the child should have been normal. 

-----------

 

[Ser Knute]

@LmL I watched the HoW podcast on House Dayne II with you as guest, very well done on both your parts.  I recall you mentioning the dualIty of Venus and how across its cycle it is the Morningstar and the Evenstar... then you talked about the Daynes having both a SotM & SotE in their history.  I was hoping you'd expound on that but the discussion went elsewhere.

Possible that those born 'in' the Morningstar aspect rise to be 'possible'  SotM, while those born under the Evenstar aspect may be SotE?  Sort of like how a Libra is not 'just' a Libra, born in October, but unique to what planets and other signs are 'rising' in their astrological starcharts?  I wonder if something like that is in play here?

Great work and I look forward to more as usual...

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Ser Knute said:

@LmL I watched the HoW podcast on House Dayne II with you as guest, very well done on both your parts.  I recall you mentioning the dualIty of Venus and how across its cycle it is the Morningstar and the Evenstar... then you talked about the Daynes having both a SotM & SotE in their history.  I was hoping you'd expound on that but the discussion went elsewhere.

Possible that those born 'in' the Morningstar aspect rise to be 'possible'  SotM, while those born under the Evenstar aspect may be SotE?  Sort of like how a Libra is not 'just' a Libra, born in October, but unique to what planets and other signs are 'rising' in their astrological starcharts?  I wonder if something like that is in play here?

Great work and I look forward to more as usual...

Right on Ser Knute! I would have liked to talk about it longer too but as you can see it's already a really long episode, and also I have to limit how far I go with the more abstract stuff on another person's show. HoW always keeps it grounded in the empirical, rational evidence so I didn't want to push it.  I do think George is showing something there with the MStar and EStar coming from the same houses. House Tarth shows us his also, with their old seat of Morne and their hero Galladon of Morne, but now it's Evenfall Hall and the title of "Evenstar." Also, their sigil: suns and moons, but at dawn and dusk specifically. It's showing a balance between sun and moon - which means Lightbringer, child of sun and moon, and a balance between dawn and dusk, morning and evening. There's some message there. Did Dawn's white meteorite and LB's black meteorite both come from the destroyed moon? Azor Ahai brought the LN but his son ended it? Those are a couple of my guesses. 

[Ser Knute]

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

Right on Ser Knute! I would have liked to talk about it longer too but as you can see it's already a really long episode, and also I have to limit how far I go with the more abstract stuff on another person's show. HoW always keeps it grounded in the empirical, rational evidence so I didn't want to push it.  I do think George is showing something there with the MStar and EStar coming from the same houses. House Tarth shows us his also, with their old seat of Morne and their hero Galladon of Morne, but now it's Evenfall Hall and the title of "Evenstar." Also, their sigil: suns and moons, but at dawn and dusk specifically. It's showing a balance between sun and moon - which means Lightbringer, child of sun and moon, and a balance between dawn and dusk, morning and evening. There's some message there. Did Dawn's white meteorite and LB's black meteorite both come from the destroyed moon? Azor Ahai brought the LN but his son ended it? Those are a couple of my guesses. 

Well I admit that with so much depth going on it's hard to be sure, there's so many layers as you've pointed out many times.  I know that Aziz likes to stay grounded for the most part and have no problem with it; I was actually really pleased that he and you got together for at least the one episode because while I think HoW does a fantastic job of explaining what is mostly canon, you do the same type of job in exploring what's behind the text; the meanings the double entendres, the parallels, the foreshadowing, etc.

It's sometimes a bit hard to keep it all straight but I think I'm getting there.  I like that there's that basis in our real world but then amped up with magic to push it into a fantasy genre but not completely fantastic, like how you see all the unknown troops die in LOTR but hardly any main characters are killed off, well except for Boromir, poor Sean Bean.  

Anyway, I know there's no textual evidence to support that theorum, as we don't know when a guy like Vorian Dayne was born (month and day), we might get the year at best, but I was thinking about that after the podcast and thought about the starcharts and such.  I know the answer could be as simple as: no this guy just turned out evil/bad, or this guy (Arthur) turned out good, but I have a sneaking suspicion that George has considered these things, no one is just good/evil, events and circumstances and choices play a major part.

I think you're likely right, there's a bit of Yin and Yang going on here; two opposites of the same whole.  I'd thought about this before when you first started presenting your essays; that the White and Black meteorites were separate.  First I thought the blacks came from part of the comet itself, but now I wonder... perhaps the impact point and that 'half' of the moon was charred from the impact and elemental structure of the comet and that perhaps the back-half of the moon that faced away from the impact point stayed 'pristine'.  This allows both types to fall, but we've seen very little of the pristine portions, at least that I've been able to gather.  If Dawn was fashioned out of the pristine chunks, that makes sense, but then one must ask, are there more pieces somewhere?  Of course it could also be that the comet charred more than half of the moon-rock and the small tiny piece that Dawn was forged from was/is the only piece in the story.  That leads me to think of the Heart of a Fallen Star.  If Dawn represents the heart of the destroyed moon, it literally would be the heart of a fallen star.

I'll have to watch your podcasts but this line of thinking leads me back to a discussion we had awhile back where I postulated that in the World Book there was a reference in the section that was Yi Ti I believe when discussing the fall of the Empire of the Dawn after the BSE usurped the AE; that they'd sought a person with the same knightly qualities that is espoused in the Faith of the Seven.  My sister has my world book at the moment so I can't pull the exact quote but I remember seeing that and thinking "that sounds a lot like what the knights of the seven are supposed to be like".

Your thought that AA brought the LN but his son ended it would follow an old saying about how the sons inherit the sins of the father, something like that, I forget the exact quote but you see that theme used a lot, weren't Aragorn's ancestors of the Dunedain responsible for the One-Ring not being destroyed the first time they had it at Mount Doom?  Something like that... I can see that here for sure, at least in some respects.  You see it in Star Wars too with Anakin and Luke, only in this story we're talking about millenia rather than decades.  

Fantastic work again, you guys give me so much pleasure in your enthusiasm for the story, it's so much fun to push play on those podcasts and just let it all sink in (again and again).