The hypocrisy of ned

[TheSeason]

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I can understand what you try to mean to say ... but here I do not understand how Ned is doing what was best for Ned. Why is he acting "in bad faith"?* How is he acting both (or three?) times "doing best for Ned"? I do not really understand what you think Ned had for aim/goal which was best for him?

* And with the question I do not mean why you do think he is acting in bad faith? But what do you think the reasons are for him to act in bad faith?

Ned's reasons for acting in bad faith are simple and utterly selfish. Ned's motives lie not in making the promises but in choosing to break them rather than face the reality and consequences of keeping his word within reason and good faith.

 

Lyanna:

Ned loved Robert more than Lyanna. Robert was his favorite. He has a bewildering tendency to glorify and worship Robert. He never told any of his children (let alone Jon Snow, to whom that would matter most) a fair estimation of the man and his works because he never had one. So, when Lyanna asks him a promise that makes him feel like he might have to oppose Robert and tell him exactly how heinous his failings are, he connives a way to satisfy his needs first (yes, this was after he stormed out of King's Landing upon seeing Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies and Robert shrugged it off… and suddenly it's somebody he loves he's picturing in Elia Martell and Aegon's place… but it's also at that hands of somebody he loves.).

I don't really see how any man with a clear picture of what happened (even to him; Lyanna was not the only child pawn in this rebellion, Jon Arryn had been fomenting for years, with his father's aid and consent, and Aerys had legitimate concerns and rights in this regard) could be brought closer to Robert after finding Lyanna at the tower (after their falling out over child murders). I think what happens is that he shuts down after making this promise, and thereby reverts to a fixed positive memory of Robert from when they were children, and will accept no evidence to the contrary that Robert may never have been the person he thought he was.

That leaves Jon Snow in a terrible place, however: Ned needs Robert to be the best choice, worthy of all that idol-worship he's been doing (and despite not having great evidence to support that view), Ned needs Rhaegar to be insignificant (to Lyanna but also to Jon Snow) because that also calls into question Robert's image in his mind, and Ned needs Jon Snow to be safe and forever out of the way and yet still somehow hostage to his good behavior and Robert's peace of mind (so he can claim to Robert, if need be, that he was only protecting family, an innocent child who did not ask for this either, but he still thought to protect the realm—or, more specifically Robert's dynasty, born upon the backs of murdered children).  Turning Jon Snow into an outcast and an exile lets him do that, even as he claims to be protecting him or to have his best interests at heart, lets him break his promise to his sister whilst still technically keeping it.

 

Barra's Mother:

Once again, Robert's perfect image is being slowly eaten away in Ned's mind, and he rebels and subconsciously lashes out at the most innocent parties involved. Ned, confronted with Barra's mother, is not only confronted with Robert's failings as a father and as a man again, but also his own culpability (he might feel, that is, not necessarily that he has) in Lyanna's running away in the first place (his pathetic attempts to shield Robert from Lyanna's accusations when Lyanna says she does not want him for legitimate reasons; his answer protects no one but Robert, who, as Lord of the Stormlands, already had freedom of choice in this decision, and could have rebuffed Jon Arryn's(?) attempts to find him a suitable wife; Lyanna, an innocent, had no freedom of choice and no power to reject a man she felt some significant measure of contempt for—her reason for fleeing him).

Barra's mother is foolish, but innocent, but she's also been exploited by the king—as opposed to exploited by plenty of other men who may not be gentle or have any reason to make her life easier in some small measure despite having the power to do so—and Ned is uncomfortable just looking at this child (the mother) that Robert has wronged and abused with his callous disregard for her and her child's welfare (as with all his other bastard children). Worse, he's no kind of father to his legitimate children either, so Ned cannot even cling on to that.

When Barra's mother asks Ned to tell Robert that she's waiting for him, Ned actually has no real reason not to simply pass along the message (it isn't his fault the girl wants something impossible, and he isn't the one who gave her a child and then neglected to do anything for her, as if she made that child on her own!)… except that it makes him uncomfortable to confront Robert on his failings. What he says of Barra's mother in his discussion with Robert verges far too much (for my tastes) on flat-out blaming the victim (she's a whore and an idiot who has the audacity to fall in love with the king who visited her bed when he was feeling frisky and then conveniently forgot she existed when she started filling out!).

It appears he's scolding Robert, but he never actually says anything that gives Robert (or the reader) the impression that Ned truly understands that Robert is in the wrong, that he's a pig, and his sister was right about him all along. He flirts with these thoughts in the brothel and in the rain, but by the time he makes it to the Red Keep, he's shut back down again (granted, he was injured, so the time delay here might play into this also, but I have doubts he'd have said anything different without it).

Ned needs Robert to be the good guy alternative to Rhaegar (for his sister!) and he isn't, so it's Barra's mother who pays the price. The message was simple and earnest and not Ned's to mutilate to satisfy his own needs. The callous way he bespeaks her (foolish, impossible, yes) love and needs to Robert is disrespectful and unfair and foremost unnecessary. This promise to Barra's mother is, I think, the clearest example of Ned's treachery in his "promise keeping"—a promise no one forced him to make, unlike Cat holding swords to Jaime's throat to exact oaths from him, and yet it is Jaime who gives solace to his enemies to protect Cat's children and uphold his oath, and Ned who all but spits in Barra's mother's face!

We see from beginning to end that it's a simple request and there isn't even all that much on the line here (the bastardy of Cersei's children cannot factor preemptively into this decision, nor the threat Joffrey poses them after Ned is already dead) for Ned to waffle about anyway; pass along the message, Robert scoffs it off, and that's that. But doing so requires Ned to come face-to-face with the man Robert really is, and Ned satisfies instead his own childish/traumatized(?) urges to force Robert into a position of worthiness… but this is not only done at Barra's mother's expense, it's done at Barra's. If Ned passed her message along in earnest, as she made it, and then said, "I advise you to get the girl out of the city before she says the wrong thing to the wrong person. You've got coin for tourneys we can't afford and drink and whores, find some coin to protect your bastard before it's too late!" I'd have a lot more respect for this decision. It's Barra's mother's love that is impossible here, not Ned keeping his promise to her and not Robert taking some small initiative to ship her across the sea with the money necessary to give these two children a better life. If she squanders it, that's on Barra's mother, then, and she has to make up the difference and suffer the consequences too.

Instead, Ned presents Barra's mother's request in a deceptive way (to the reader) that suggests there's no reasonable or feasible alternative to his choice, that Robert has no responsibility here, and that even asking that Robert face the consequences of his actions is utterly laughable, so that when Robert shrugs it off, he appears to be in the right and that there was nothing he could have done for her anyway. Ned is appealing to the absurdity of a whore (however inexperienced) falling in love with a client to ease Robert's guilt before Robert ever makes his dismissal of this child and their daughter plain because he knows it's coming anyway. This way, however, he isn't smacked in the face with Robert's selfishness and neglect.

 

Robert:

Ned's glorified image of Robert is wholly shattered by the time he makes this promise to his dying friend (although he continues clinging to it in the Black Cells because… in for a penny, I suppose!), and he might even realize that somehow he backed the wrong candidate all along (Aerys had to go, but did Rhaegar or his children or his brother, too? Aerys was the trigger for the rebellion, but that does not mean Rhaegar would not have been more reasonable and made amends after his father was removed. Rhaegar only moved into the battle after the rebels started winning and posed real threat to the lives and well-being of his family, so his choice to ride to the Trident may be taken as defensive as Ned and Robert's when Mad Aerys called for their heads. If Rhaegar in any way made attempts to negotiate and cooperate, then it is possible that only Robert's intractability on the Lyanna issue—she, who did not want him anyway—prevented peace from being made. I'm not convinced of this mind, just thinking aloud about Ned's psyche here.). Robert's so-called dynasty is a sham and the realm that loves him should be loving and praising Jon Arryn the Shadow King for keeping him in check as long as he did (a similar situation to Tywin and Aerys, actually, but Tywin blew his chance at respect in a big way). There was no reign to sing of. Robert never deserved his throne, and worse indebted the realm to those threatening it (as well as the IBB, and it's never a good idea to string them along, since turmoil follows in wake of default!). And now the realm could be left in the hands of a little psychopath and his treacherous family if Ned refuses to act (that is, give Robert the information he needs to make the best decision for the realm, which may not align with Ned's ideas of what should happen next!).

Robert's legacy is or has become one of sheer destruction and devastation, and Ned cannot accept that. When Robert asked for this promise on his deathbed, there was never a better time to come forward with the truth. Ned looked at Robert in this moment and saw his best friend and brother instead of his king, and so he committed a treason. Robert had one final opportunity to do the best thing for the realm and all its innocents, but he could not make the right and best choice without complete and necessary information. Here, Ned's betrayal is slightly twofold, I think: he never should have made the promise in the first place (not because it made him uncomfortable to keep his word as with the other two instances, but because making this promise was treasonous and affected policy in the worst way) and once he made it, he imperiled Robert's innocents for the sake of his own satisfaction of having vengeance against the Lannisters (we cannot know Robert would not have disinherited Stannis and/or Renly outright, can we? We cannot know Robert would not have disinherited Joffrey in favor of Tommen, either, so long as it was Ned in charge of his rule until he comes of age—a peace that could have been made between Stark and Lannister because Tywin would have flat-out forced it. We cannot even know that Robert would not have spared Joffrey simply for the sake of Myrcella and Tommen. Neither side would have been happy with this compromise, but the realm might not have bled so profusely and Ned might have had the opportunity to take further steps for the protection of the realm against the Lannister usurpation of the throne whilst Tommen was growing up—betrothing Tommen and Shireen, then, would have put Baratheon blood back into the Baratheon dynasty, I mean. These were choices Robert, as king and then as father, had the right to consider, but Ned stole that from him for his own reasons. Ned would not have liked Robert's answer—just as the reader might not have liked any answer other than "bring me their heads!"—but it was not Ned's place to dictate what the king should do. He assumed Robert's kingship in this moment by keeping him in ignorance so he could make his war on the Lannisters to his own satisfaction.)

His reasons here also include not wanting to acknowledge Robert's failings as a man, a husband, a father, and a king… but also include his need to visit vengeance upon the Lannisters for Bran's two attempted murders. I don't deny him justice—I'm on his side in that regard—but I do think the appropriate measure to take here would have been to recuse himself and put the matter solely in the king's hands, whether he liked the result or not. A hard choice to make (telling the truth and then graciously stepping aside), but the only one I can find to his (very real) dilemma here.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Tijgy said:

I read your Chtonic Cycle's essays which were interesting. And it is indeed clear that Ned doesn't know Robert (or the more new Robert) and learning the more bad sides of Robert is actually an important (sad) part of Ned's storyline. But I don't understand where you get the idea Ned chose ever Robert over Lyanna or Jon and how he should feel responsible for Lyanna's abduction? 

The only thing we can think as a conflict between them is:  "Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

In my opinion this shows only that Ned was even at that time already blind to the faults of his best friend. And Lyanna's reaction was more something like "my poor brother, who is a little naive" and nothing more than that. 

So I do no really understand where you get this perspective on this Lyanna-Robert-Ned relationship and, while I might have by accident missed in your essay, I do not believe you really clarified it?

I think Ned thought it a marvelous idea to hitch Lyanna to Robert. Robert and Ned were probably all in favor of this match for the same reasons - to be family; that it would be happy clappy ever after. Robert never went to WF before he visits in aGoT. And he was all in favor of marrying Lyanna before Harrenhal and speaks as if he met her at least once before HH. So, he met Lyanna in the Vale, most likely while she came to visit her brother. Lord Rickard would have hoped it would do the trick with Robert and Ned was swell with it. Except Lyanna. That's what I suspect happened for Robert to treat with Lord Rickard to marry Lyanna. He put aside any misgivings and signs of it from Lyanna to this match, waved it off. And more than a year later his father and brother have died, he had to fight to depose a king and the same sister has a son with another man who she does not hate and most likely fell in love with, might even have gone off with willingly. Anyway, I think Ned feels guilty for having been a bad brother to Lyanna, while he was the brother to Robert that Robert wished for.  

[devilish]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think Ned thought it a marvelous idea to hitch Lyanna to Robert. Robert and Ned were probably all in favor of this match for the same reasons - to be family; that it would be happy clappy ever after. Robert never went to WF before he visits in aGoT. And he was all in favor of marrying Lyanna before Harrenhal and speaks as if he met her at least once before HH. So, he met Lyanna in the Vale, most likely while she came to visit her brother. Lord Rickard would have hoped it would do the trick with Robert and Ned was swell with it. Except Lyanna. That's what I suspect happened for Robert to treat with Lord Rickard to marry Lyanna. He put aside any misgivings and signs of it from Lyanna to this match, waved it off. And more than a year later his father and brother have died, he had to fight to depose a king and the same sister has a son with another man who she does not hate and most likely fell in love with, might even have gone off with willingly. Anyway, I think Ned feels guilty for having been a bad brother to Lyanna, while he was the brother to Robert that Robert wished for.  

Ned had no power on whom Lyanna is promised to. At that point he had as much power as Benjen or Bran had at the beginning of GOT. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, devilish said:

Ned had no power on whom Lyanna is promised to. At that point he had as much power as Benjen or Bran had at the beginning of GOT. 

A lot of people can feel guilty for things they never had any power over.

[devilish]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

A lot of people can feel guilty for things they never had any power over.

Yes, especially if they happen to be sensitive people like Eddard surely was. 

[COYStars]

On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 1:00 AM, house of dayne said:

the haunting feeling ned gets as he recalls lyannas promise strongly implies guilt, as though the promise was unkept...yet ned never express any shame or guilt in regards to jon...

I never read it like this and still don't read it like this.

In my mind, the guilt is because he kept the promise, whatever it was.

Assuming that the promise related to Jon, then it's quite conceivable that the guilt he feels is that, in keeping the promise (which I assume is to keep Jon's identity a secret), he's denied Jon the life and environment that the kid should have had. As well as hurting Cat.

If my reading is true then the whole theory falls apart.

I don't for one moment think that Ned is one to fail to keep that promise, whatever it was.

[Neds Secret]

12 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Ned's reasons for acting in bad faith are simple and utterly selfish. Ned's motives lie not in making the promises but in choosing to break them rather than face the reality and consequences of keeping his word within reason and good faith.

 

Lyanna:

Ned loved Robert more than Lyanna. Robert was his favorite. He has a bewildering tendency to glorify and worship Robert. He never told any of his children (let alone Jon Snow, to whom that would matter most) a fair estimation of the man and his works because he never had one. So, when Lyanna asks him a promise that makes him feel like he might have to oppose Robert and tell him exactly how heinous his failings are, he connives a way to satisfy his needs first (yes, this was after he stormed out of King's Landing upon seeing Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies and Robert shrugged it off… and suddenly it's somebody he loves he's picturing in Elia Martell and Aegon's place… but it's also at that hands of somebody he loves.).

I don't really see how any man with a clear picture of what happened (even to him; Lyanna was not the only child pawn in this rebellion, Jon Arryn had been fomenting for years, with his father's aid and consent, and Aerys had legitimate concerns and rights in this regard) could be brought closer to Robert after finding Lyanna at the tower (after their falling out over child murders). I think what happens is that he shuts down after making this promise, and thereby reverts to a fixed positive memory of Robert from when they were children, and will accept no evidence to the contrary that Robert may never have been the person he thought he was.

That leaves Jon Snow in a terrible place, however: Ned needs Robert to be the best choice, worthy of all that idol-worship he's been doing (and despite not having great evidence to support that view), Ned needs Rhaegar to be insignificant (to Lyanna but also to Jon Snow) because that also calls into question Robert's image in his mind, and Ned needs Jon Snow to be safe and forever out of the way and yet still somehow hostage to his good behavior and Robert's peace of mind (so he can claim to Robert, if need be, that he was only protecting family, an innocent child who did not ask for this either, but he still thought to protect the realm—or, more specifically Robert's dynasty, born upon the backs of murdered children).  Turning Jon Snow into an outcast and an exile lets him do that, even as he claims to be protecting him or to have his best interests at heart, lets him break his promise to his sister whilst still technically keeping it.

 

Barra's Mother:

Once again, Robert's perfect image is being slowly eaten away in Ned's mind, and he rebels and subconsciously lashes out at the most innocent parties involved. Ned, confronted with Barra's mother, is not only confronted with Robert's failings as a father and as a man again, but also his own culpability (he might feel, that is, not necessarily that he has) in Lyanna's running away in the first place (his pathetic attempts to shield Robert from Lyanna's accusations when Lyanna says she does not want him for legitimate reasons; his answer protects no one but Robert, who, as Lord of the Stormlands, already had freedom of choice in this decision, and could have rebuffed Jon Arryn's(?) attempts to find him a suitable wife; Lyanna, an innocent, had no freedom of choice and no power to reject a man she felt some significant measure of contempt for—her reason for fleeing him).

Barra's mother is foolish, but innocent, but she's also been exploited by the king—as opposed to exploited by plenty of other men who may not be gentle or have any reason to make her life easier in some small measure despite having the power to do so—and Ned is uncomfortable just looking at this child (the mother) that Robert has wronged and abused with his callous disregard for her and her child's welfare (as with all his other bastard children). Worse, he's no kind of father to his legitimate children either, so Ned cannot even cling on to that.

When Barra's mother asks Ned to tell Robert that she's waiting for him, Ned actually has no real reason not to simply pass along the message (it isn't his fault the girl wants something impossible, and he isn't the one who gave her a child and then neglected to do anything for her, as if she made that child on her own!)… except that it makes him uncomfortable to confront Robert on his failings. What he says of Barra's mother in his discussion with Robert verges far too much (for my tastes) on flat-out blaming the victim (she's a whore and an idiot who has the audacity to fall in love with the king who visited her bed when he was feeling frisky and then conveniently forgot she existed when she started filling out!).

It appears he's scolding Robert, but he never actually says anything that gives Robert (or the reader) the impression that Ned truly understands that Robert is in the wrong, that he's a pig, and his sister was right about him all along. He flirts with these thoughts in the brothel and in the rain, but by the time he makes it to the Red Keep, he's shut back down again (granted, he was injured, so the time delay here might play into this also, but I have doubts he'd have said anything different without it).

Ned needs Robert to be the good guy alternative to Rhaegar (for his sister!) and he isn't, so it's Barra's mother who pays the price. The message was simple and earnest and not Ned's to mutilate to satisfy his own needs. The callous way he bespeaks her (foolish, impossible, yes) love and needs to Robert is disrespectful and unfair and foremost unnecessary. This promise to Barra's mother is, I think, the clearest example of Ned's treachery in his "promise keeping"—a promise no one forced him to make, unlike Cat holding swords to Jaime's throat to exact oaths from him, and yet it is Jaime who gives solace to his enemies to protect Cat's children and uphold his oath, and Ned who all but spits in Barra's mother's face!

We see from beginning to end that it's a simple request and there isn't even all that much on the line here (the bastardy of Cersei's children cannot factor preemptively into this decision, nor the threat Joffrey poses them after Ned is already dead) for Ned to waffle about anyway; pass along the message, Robert scoffs it off, and that's that. But doing so requires Ned to come face-to-face with the man Robert really is, and Ned satisfies instead his own childish/traumatized(?) urges to force Robert into a position of worthiness… but this is not only done at Barra's mother's expense, it's done at Barra's. If Ned passed her message along in earnest, as she made it, and then said, "I advise you to get the girl out of the city before she says the wrong thing to the wrong person. You've got coin for tourneys we can't afford and drink and whores, find some coin to protect your bastard before it's too late!" I'd have a lot more respect for this decision. It's Barra's mother's love that is impossible here, not Ned keeping his promise to her and not Robert taking some small initiative to ship her across the sea with the money necessary to give these two children a better life. If she squanders it, that's on Barra's mother, then, and she has to make up the difference and suffer the consequences too.

Instead, Ned presents Barra's mother's request in a deceptive way (to the reader) that suggests there's no reasonable or feasible alternative to his choice, that Robert has no responsibility here, and that even asking that Robert face the consequences of his actions is utterly laughable, so that when Robert shrugs it off, he appears to be in the right and that there was nothing he could have done for her anyway. Ned is appealing to the absurdity of a whore (however inexperienced) falling in love with a client to ease Robert's guilt before Robert ever makes his dismissal of this child and their daughter plain because he knows it's coming anyway. This way, however, he isn't smacked in the face with Robert's selfishness and neglect.

 

Robert:

Ned's glorified image of Robert is wholly shattered by the time he makes this promise to his dying friend (although he continues clinging to it in the Black Cells because… in for a penny, I suppose!), and he might even realize that somehow he backed the wrong candidate all along (Aerys had to go, but did Rhaegar or his children or his brother, too? Aerys was the trigger for the rebellion, but that does not mean Rhaegar would not have been more reasonable and made amends after his father was removed. Rhaegar only moved into the battle after the rebels started winning and posed real threat to the lives and well-being of his family, so his choice to ride to the Trident may be taken as defensive as Ned and Robert's when Mad Aerys called for their heads. If Rhaegar in any way made attempts to negotiate and cooperate, then it is possible that only Robert's intractability on the Lyanna issue—she, who did not want him anyway—prevented peace from being made. I'm not convinced of this mind, just thinking aloud about Ned's psyche here.). Robert's so-called dynasty is a sham and the realm that loves him should be loving and praising Jon Arryn the Shadow King for keeping him in check as long as he did (a similar situation to Tywin and Aerys, actually, but Tywin blew his chance at respect in a big way). There was no reign to sing of. Robert never deserved his throne, and worse indebted the realm to those threatening it (as well as the IBB, and it's never a good idea to string them along, since turmoil follows in wake of default!). And now the realm could be left in the hands of a little psychopath and his treacherous family if Ned refuses to act (that is, give Robert the information he needs to make the best decision for the realm, which may not align with Ned's ideas of what should happen next!).

Robert's legacy is or has become one of sheer destruction and devastation, and Ned cannot accept that. When Robert asked for this promise on his deathbed, there was never a better time to come forward with the truth. Ned looked at Robert in this moment and saw his best friend and brother instead of his king, and so he committed a treason. Robert had one final opportunity to do the best thing for the realm and all its innocents, but he could not make the right and best choice without complete and necessary information. Here, Ned's betrayal is slightly twofold, I think: he never should have made the promise in the first place (not because it made him uncomfortable to keep his word as with the other two instances, but because making this promise was treasonous and affected policy in the worst way) and once he made it, he imperiled Robert's innocents for the sake of his own satisfaction of having vengeance against the Lannisters (we cannot know Robert would not have disinherited Stannis and/or Renly outright, can we? We cannot know Robert would not have disinherited Joffrey in favor of Tommen, either, so long as it was Ned in charge of his rule until he comes of age—a peace that could have been made between Stark and Lannister because Tywin would have flat-out forced it. We cannot even know that Robert would not have spared Joffrey simply for the sake of Myrcella and Tommen. Neither side would have been happy with this compromise, but the realm might not have bled so profusely and Ned might have had the opportunity to take further steps for the protection of the realm against the Lannister usurpation of the throne whilst Tommen was growing up—betrothing Tommen and Shireen, then, would have put Baratheon blood back into the Baratheon dynasty, I mean. These were choices Robert, as king and then as father, had the right to consider, but Ned stole that from him for his own reasons. Ned would not have liked Robert's answer—just as the reader might not have liked any answer other than "bring me their heads!"—but it was not Ned's place to dictate what the king should do. He assumed Robert's kingship in this moment by keeping him in ignorance so he could make his war on the Lannisters to his own satisfaction.)

His reasons here also include not wanting to acknowledge Robert's failings as a man, a husband, a father, and a king… but also include his need to visit vengeance upon the Lannisters for Bran's two attempted murders. I don't deny him justice—I'm on his side in that regard—but I do think the appropriate measure to take here would have been to recuse himself and put the matter solely in the king's hands, whether he liked the result or not. A hard choice to make (telling the truth and then graciously stepping aside), but the only one I can find to his (very real) dilemma here.

I never, ever read the story the way that you see it. I always saw Neds guilt as to not ever getting to tell Jon who his mother was, and for a lot of what you say above you presume to know what Ned promised Lyanna and then assume that he failed, I never saw the story that way however you do present and back up your argument extremely well and who is to say your wrong! You certainly present and see Eddard in a different light than many but I find your conclusions very interesting and well thought out! Extremely interesting.

[RobOsevens]

13 hours ago, TheSeason said:

Ned's reasons for acting in bad faith are simple and utterly selfish. Ned's motives lie not in making the promises but in choosing to break them rather than face the reality and consequences of keeping his word within reason and good faith.

 

Ned did not break whatever promise he made to Lyanna,

From aGoT, ""I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

 

[joluoto2]

Ned made some kind of promise to Lyanna. And whatever it was he was keeping it, since he think about what keeping these promises has cost him.

So, all theories about Ned not keeping his promise to Lyanna are completely bs.

[COYStars]

6 minutes ago, RobOsevens said:

Ned did not break whatever promise he made to Lyanna,

From aGoT, ""I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

 

<clap>

I knew there would be a reason why I'd formed the conclusion that I had.

[RobOsevens]

1 minute ago, COYStars said:

<clap>

I knew there would be a reason why I'd formed the conclusion that I had.

That quote also shows that Ned was not blind to who the real Robert was, Ned knew Robert when he was at his best. 

I think TheSeason (in his critique of Ned) is forgetting that a lot of people compromise who they are or who they want to be especially compared to their teenage selves. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

1 hour ago, RobOsevens said:

That quote also shows that Ned was not blind to who the real Robert was, Ned knew Robert when he was at his best. 

I think TheSeason (in his critique of Ned) is forgetting that a lot of people compromise who they are or who they want to be especially compared to their teenage selves. 

Ditto!  Teenagers are so full of ideas, plans, feel themselves invincible to a certain degree - they've still got their rose-coloured glasses on.  

If your adult life is exactly as you envisioned your adult life as a teenager - you likely have access to someone else's money.  (And no children...children are NEVER what you expect, no matter what you've planned...)

I can't even buy my bright yellow truck I've been dreaming of driving since I was 15!  Save, save, save - but then the water heater blows or the roof is leaking, and guess what's more important?

Teenage brains develop at the same speed, and work the same way, regardless of time period.  And really, its not all that different from a modern day big brother asking his sister "Why don't you want to go out with my friend?  He's great!" with little sister basically responding "He's a damn slut! Why would I want to?" (Which I'm sure is a conversation had in many a household over the years!  Why would Ned and Lyanna be any different?)  Admittedly, some conversations go the other way - "Why can't I go out with your friend?" "Cause he's *my* friend, you'll take up all his time!"

Basically, 18 y.o Ned sounds like most 16-20 y. o's.  Except instead of dating they're discussing marriage cause: patriarchy

[ravenous reader]

23 hours ago, TheSeason said:

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 3:31 AM, SFDanny said:

He is deciding to spare his friend a very painful truth on his deathbed without rewarding those who have conspired, lied, and likely killed Robert in their lust for power.

I don't see how that matters, though. Ned had information that Robert required to make an informed decision as a father and as a king. You are presuming that Ned's thoughts on the matter are correct, and that Robert would never have wanted that promise made if he knew the truth. We cannot know that, however. In fact, on his deathbed, he had just advocated mercy for his "dragonspawn" enemies, Dany and Rhaego, who could have become a credible threat to his dynasty but at that time had committed no other crime than to be born into a family that Robert disliked. Well, what crimes had Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen committed, but to be born into a family that Ned disliked? Perhaps Robert, who watched those children grow up as his own, and facing his own mortality, and having had a change of heart about his so-called "dragonspawn" enemies, would have shrugged it off more-or-less

First, I really enjoyed reading your contributions!  You seem to have great insight into the complexities of Ned's psyche, and use the text imaginatively to support your claim.  However, I still feel you are missing the point somewhat.  Understanding what makes Ned tick is not only about dissecting Ned's painful inadequacies and overdeveloped defense mechanisms; it's about sharing in the pathos of his predicament. 

Apropos 'making an informed decision,' that is language most often used to describe a more formal professional relationship, such as the doctor-patient relationship, or attorney-client, or, in this context, the working relationship that should ideally exist between a Hand and his king. 

Perhaps that is the crux of it, where Ned went wrong: He loved, where he had no business loving. 

In the case of doctors and patients, the parties can be friendly, but anything as informal as a friendship, let alone as intimate as love, will compromise the objectivity of the clinical decision-making capacity.  Similarly, Robert had no business selecting Ned as his Hand, and Ned, in turn, should never have accepted the offer. 

Armed with the privilege of distance, your third-party analysis of what ought to have transpired at the deathbed between the two childhood friends, playing at hand and king, is highly logical and sensible.  However, you forget that love, especially love faced with the imminent demise and irretrievable loss of the loved one, often turns that logical thought process on its head.  And, I agree with the assessment that Ned loved Robert above all others, to his detriment.

Had Ned known, as you say, that he could never fulfil his promises (and I'm not even sure this would have been clear to him at the time), then, it follows that, in 'good faith,' Ned should have denied both Robert and Lyanna their last wishes, shattering their illusions if necessary, because 'life is not a song of ice and fire, sweetling...it's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing...'

That would have been the logical thing, the 'fair' thing, the 'honorable' thing, strictly speaking, to do. It would not, however, have been the kind nor loving thing, in that moment.  Alternatively, one might argue that a tough-love, tough-talk approach is always the most loving thing to do, regardless of the scenario (sometimes one has to 'be cruel to be kind,' right...). 

Only, when it came down to it, as he was looking into the eyes of his dying sister, or best friend, for the very last time, Ned couldn't bring himself to do it.  He couldn't follow through on the (tough-) 'loving thing'-- precisely because he loved them!  

Which poses another question:  If Ned were such an unreliable deathbed companion, a fickle equivocator, playing fast and easy with the spirit and the letter, basically someone to whom you'd be unwise to entrust your last will and testament, why is everyone so keen to have him there at their deathbed..?!  Are they such poor judges of character?  For all his faults, I guess there's just something comforting about the bedside manner of a quiet (though potentially duplicitous) wolf!

Finally, you really think Robert, freshly enlightened by Ned, would have absolved Cersei and Jaime of the cuckolding, given his blessing to the now-Lannisterised babes, and 'shrugged it off, more or less...'?!  When it comes to appreciating the finer aspects of human nature, Ned can be a clod, but he's not that daft! 

Quote

 "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

The converse is also true: Seeing a man's true nature doesn't necessarily change ones love for him.  Ned saw who Robert was, and loved him anyway. 

On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 1:34 PM, sweetsunray said:

Hypocrisy means that a person goes against his conscious, not against the reader's conscious. We might rightfully frown at some of his use of the room he's given, but the man consistently acts in concordance to his beliefs. He solely considers the alteration of the will as going against his conscious, because he was literally dictated one thing, and he altered the wording. If we call a man who's lived close to 40 years going against his conscious only once a hypocrite in general for that, then everyone is a hypocrite.

BTW imo LF is not a hypocrite either. Tywin is though

Eddard's tragedy is not about flagrant 'hypocrisy.'  Rather, it's about living, in his words, 'an honorable lie,'  which, granted, involves a measure of deception, and therefore might be considered 'hypocrisy,' by certain definitions.  As you've said before, and I've alluded to in my discussion above, Ned's concept of 'honor' is closer to 'love' or 'empathy,' than it is to 'honesty' (the latter being a common misconception). 

I disagree, however, that 'hypocrisy' necessarily involves 'conscience.'  Conscience implies awareness of ones own hypocrisy; however, people are quite capable of harboring 'blindspots,' when it comes to integrating their various conscious, as well as unconscious, beliefs, motivations, intentions, emotions, urges, and actions.  Furthermore, conscience implies not only that one 'sees,' but additionally that one 'cares' (to the point of feeling intrusive pangs of guilt) about ones own hypocrisy.  However, this is also not uniformly the case with hypocrites, who are often blithely at ease with the 'double-lives' they lead.  In fact, hypocrisy may be so deeply ingrained in a character, that it becomes a way of life.  Consider Littlefinger vs. Ned, in terms of the degree of 'hypocrisy' that each demonstrates:

LF, a man utterly devoid of conscience, tells dishonorable lies.  Ned, a man with an overbearing conscience, tells honorable ones.  The difference lies not in the 'binary' true vs. false distinction, but rather in the quality of the deception, with respect to the intent:  In the latter (Ned), the intent of the deception is to spare someone pain; in the former (LF), the clear intent is to inflict harm. 

There may be an element of truth to TheSeason's argument that Ned's primary intent is to spare himself pain and discomfort, if one understands that causing pain and discomfort to others, especially those whom he loves, is the primary reason for most of Ned's pain and discomfort!

Ned twists the truth, primarily to protect and defend others (admittedly, his interpretation may sometimes smack of paternalism, but at least he gives the thoughts, feelings, and wishes of other people some consideration). Moreover, he twists the truth so that it corresponds with some internal truth, with which he can live.  Though tainted, this is still a more ethical way of conducting oneself in the world, compared to someone like LF, for whom there is no correspondence between internal and external truth whatsoever.

Because LF doesn't struggle with issues of integrating his various selves, masks, and postures, and crucially feels no attachment nor responsibility to any other person besides himself, his decisions are curiously more 'clear-cut' than Ned's, and may invite less debate, as a result.  From this perspective, LF's decisions are less murky, less weighty, less 'grey' than Ned's, unmuddied as they are by anything as 'trivial' as 'love.' 

Certainly, Ned's quest to factor-in love tinges his decisions with a certain 'hypocrisy,' but those labeling Ned as a 'selfish,' 'self-serving' person are going too far.  On the contrary, if Ned can be blamed for anything, it's for his selflessness.  While his 'wolf-blooded' daughter struggles to become 'no-one,' Ned is arguably just that-- 'no-one.' The way he lived his life exemplifies valar dohaeris, an ethic which has always came more naturally to Ned that some of his family members.

As a second son, perhaps he learned to put himself second.  In 'lupine' terms, he is the 'beta-' wolf, not the 'alpha-' (that would have been Brandon).  Continuing this analogy, Ned is 'the quiet wolf,' the one without a voice, both literally and metaphorically.  The one who lives his life in service to the voices of others, while keeping his own opinions unvoiced. 

For example, when alpha-male, 'wolf-blooded' Brandon died, Ned had to put aside whatever his own desires may have been (Ashara Dayne..?), suppress whatever his own latent 'wolf's blood' was urging, and instead 'do the right thing' by his family by marrying Cat, with which he complied, uncomplainingly (the same of which can hardly be said for the arguably more selfish, uncompromising, alpha-she-wolf Lyanna, who fled the scene, and kickstarted a war, setting the Starks on an ineluctable death-spiral course, all because her betrothed was not to her liking...). 

Then, at the conclusion of her passionate escapade, Ned was predictably left to pick up the pieces that, once again, one of his flighty family members had left for him to deal with.  And, no doubt, that (in)famous 'promise' was not requested; it would have been demanded, and extracted of him (that alpha-wolf-maid was hard to refuse...)  So, Ned, doing his typical self-sacrificial, deferential 'beta-' routine, did not say 'no.' 

In many respects, Ned is a stranger to himself.  He tries to love, respect, protect, and please too many other people, too much.  He prioritizes the rights of  others, even extending his generosity to include those outside his immediate kin, to his own detriment.  Ultimately, it's a losing proposition for Ned, because his efforts to serve can never suffice, inevitably failing to do justice to everyone equally.  It's a bitter truth, that one love/ideal inevitably compromises another: 

First, devotion to Robert...compromises Lyanna...then, keeping faith with Lyanna (...and by extension Jon)...compromises Cat, and deceives Robert...in turn, making it up to Cat...hurts Jon...subsequently, giving in to Robert...compromises Cat, Arya, and Sansa...in an attempt to save someone else's children, extending the 'madness' of mercy to the merciless (i.e. Cersei)...dooms himself and his own children...trying, in a last-ditch effort to salvage the situation, for the sake of his children...he only succeeds in compromising his 'honor'...and losing his head... by dying, he embroiled his family in a bloody war...

4 hours ago, RobOsevens said:

Ned did not break whatever promise he made to Lyanna,

From aGoT, ""I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

 

Whether he lived up to his vow or not, perhaps the non-disclosure of the secret itself was Ned's greatest sacrifice.  At heart, Ned was a person who desired to live an open, plain, simple, honest, straightforward, honorable, wholesome, etc. 'northern' life.  Having to keep so many secrets on behalf of other people, implicating himself in disingenuousness and duplicity, did not sit comfortably with him, and meant he was unable ever, really, to 'be himself.' 

Being unable to share the burden of these secrets with anyone (besides 'the heart tree') made him a lonely, broken figure.  Ironically, for someone who emphasized the importance of keeping faith with 'the pack,' he was a lone wolf.  Don't feel sorry for Jon; at least he had Ghost.  Unlike Jon, Ned didn't even have a direwolf to comfort him-- he was utterly alone with his very non-furry ghosts, and that's how he died, still ruminating on them, and how he'd let them all down.

 

[Jak Scaletongue]

12 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

First, I really enjoyed reading your contributions!  You seem to have great insight into the complexities of Ned's psyche, and use the text imaginatively to support your claim.  However, I still feel you are missing the point somewhat.  Understanding what makes Ned tick is not only about dissecting Ned's painful inadequacies and overdeveloped defense mechanisms; it's about sharing in the pathos of his predicament. 

Apropos 'making an informed decision,' that is language most often used to describe a more formal professional relationship, such as the doctor-patient relationship, or attorney-client, or, in this context, the working relationship that should ideally exist between a Hand and his king. 

Perhaps that is the crux of it, where Ned went wrong: He loved, where he had no business loving. 

In the case of doctors and patients, the parties can be friendly, but anything as informal as a friendship, let alone as intimate as love, will compromise the objectivity of the clinical decision-making capacity.  Similarly, Robert had no business selecting Ned as his Hand, and Ned, in turn, should never have accepted the offer. 

Armed with the privilege of distance, your third-party analysis of what ought to have transpired at the deathbed between the two childhood friends, playing at hand and king, is highly logical and sensible.  However, you forget that love, especially love faced with the imminent demise and irretrievable loss of the loved one, often turns that logical thought process on its head.  And, I agree with the assessment that Ned loved Robert above all others, to his detriment.

Had Ned known, as you say, that he could never fulfil his promises (and I'm not even sure this would have been clear to him at the time), then, it follows that, in 'good faith,' Ned should have denied both Robert and Lyanna their last wishes, shattering their illusions if necessary, because 'life is not a song of ice and fire, sweetling...it's a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing...'

That would have been the logical thing, the 'fair' thing, the 'honorable' thing, strictly speaking, to do. It would not, however, have been the kind nor loving thing, in that moment.  Alternatively, one might argue that a tough-love, tough-talk approach is always the most loving thing to do, regardless of the scenario (sometimes one has to 'be cruel to be kind,' right...). 

Only, when it came down to it, as he was looking into the eyes of his dying sister, or best friend, for the very last time, Ned couldn't bring himself to do it.  He couldn't follow through on the (tough-) 'loving thing'-- precisely because he loved them!  

Which poses another question:  If Ned were such an unreliable deathbed companion, a fickle equivocator, playing fast and easy with the spirit and the letter, basically someone to whom you'd be unwise to entrust your last will and testament, why is everyone so keen to have him there at their deathbed..?!  Are they such poor judges of character?  For all his faults, I guess there's just something comforting about the bedside manner of a quiet (though potentially duplicitous) wolf!

Finally, you really think Robert, freshly enlightened by Ned, would have absolved Cersei and Jaime of the cuckolding, given his blessing to the now-Lannisterised babes, and 'shrugged it off, more or less...'?!  When it comes to appreciating the finer aspects of human nature, Ned can be a clod, but he's not that daft! 

The converse is also true: Seeing a man's true nature doesn't necessarily change ones love for him.  Ned saw who Robert was, and loved him anyway. 

Eddard's tragedy is not about flagrant 'hypocrisy.'  Rather, it's about living, in his words, 'an honorable lie,'  which, granted, involves a measure of deception, and therefore might be considered 'hypocrisy,' by certain definitions.  As you've said before, and I've alluded to in my discussion above, Ned's concept of 'honor' is closer to 'love' or 'empathy,' than it is to 'honesty' (the latter being a common misconception). 

I disagree, however, that 'hypocrisy' necessarily involves 'conscience.'  Conscience implies awareness of ones own hypocrisy; however, people are quite capable of harboring 'blindspots,' when it comes to integrating their various conscious, as well as unconscious, beliefs, motivations, intentions, emotions, urges, and actions.  Furthermore, conscience implies not only that one 'sees,' but additionally that one 'cares' (to the point of feeling intrusive pangs of guilt) about ones own hypocrisy.  However, this is also not uniformly the case with hypocrites, who are often blithely at ease with the 'double-lives' they lead.  In fact, hypocrisy may be so deeply ingrained in a character, that it becomes a way of life.  Consider Littlefinger vs. Ned, in terms of the degree of 'hypocrisy' that each demonstrates:

LF, a man utterly devoid of conscience, tells dishonorable lies.  Ned, a man with an overbearing conscience, tells honorable ones.  The difference lies not in the 'binary' true vs. false distinction, but rather in the quality of the deception, with respect to the intent:  In the latter (Ned), the intent of the deception is to spare someone pain; in the former (LF), the clear intent is to inflict harm. 

There may be an element of truth to TheSeason's argument that Ned's primary intent is to spare himself pain and discomfort, if one understands that causing pain and discomfort to others, especially those whom he loves, is the primary reason for most of Ned's pain and discomfort!

Ned twists the truth, primarily to protect and defend others (admittedly, his interpretation may sometimes smack of paternalism, but at least he gives the thoughts, feelings, and wishes of other people some consideration). Moreover, he twists the truth so that it corresponds with some internal truth, with which he can live.  Though tainted, this is still a more ethical way of conducting oneself in the world, compared to someone like LF, for whom there is no correspondence between internal and external truth whatsoever.

Because LF doesn't struggle with issues of integrating his various selves, masks, and postures, and crucially feels no attachment nor responsibility to any other person besides himself, his decisions are curiously more 'clear-cut' than Ned's, and may invite less debate, as a result.  From this perspective, LF's decisions are less murky, less weighty, less 'grey' than Ned's, unmuddied as they are by anything as 'trivial' as 'love.' 

Certainly, Ned's quest to factor-in love tinges his decisions with a certain 'hypocrisy,' but those labeling Ned as a 'selfish,' 'self-serving' person are going too far.  On the contrary, if Ned can be blamed for anything, it's for his selflessness.  While his 'wolf-blooded' daughter struggles to become 'no-one,' Ned is arguably just that-- 'no-one.' The way he lived his life exemplifies valar dohaeris, an ethic which has always came more naturally to Ned that some of his family members.

As a second son, perhaps he learned to put himself second.  In 'lupine' terms, he is the 'beta-' wolf, not the 'alpha-' (that would have been Brandon).  Continuing this analogy, Ned is 'the quiet wolf,' the one without a voice, both literally and metaphorically.  The one who lives his life in service to the voices of others, while keeping his own opinions unvoiced. 

For example, when alpha-male, 'wolf-blooded' Brandon died, Ned had to put aside whatever his own desires may have been (Ashara Dayne..?), suppress whatever his own latent 'wolf's blood' was urging, and instead 'do the right thing' by his family by marrying Cat, with which he complied, uncomplainingly (the same of which can hardly be said for the arguably more selfish, uncompromising, alpha-she-wolf Lyanna, who fled the scene, and kickstarted a war, setting the Starks on an ineluctable death-spiral course, all because her betrothed was not to her liking...). 

Then, at the conclusion of her passionate escapade, Ned was predictably left to pick up the pieces that, once again, one of his flighty family members had left for him to deal with.  And, no doubt, that (in)famous 'promise' was not requested; it would have been demanded, and extracted of him (that alpha-wolf-maid was hard to refuse...)  So, Ned, doing his typical self-sacrificial, deferential 'beta-' routine, did not say 'no.' 

In many respects, Ned is a stranger to himself.  He tries to love, respect, protect, and please too many other people, too much.  He prioritizes the rights of  others, even extending his generosity to include those outside his immediate kin, to his own detriment.  Ultimately, it's a losing proposition for Ned, because his efforts to serve can never suffice, inevitably failing to do justice to everyone equally.  It's a bitter truth, that one love/ideal inevitably compromises another: 

First, devotion to Robert...compromises Lyanna...then, keeping faith with Lyanna (...and by extension Jon)...compromises Cat, and deceives Robert...in turn, making it up to Cat...hurts Jon...subsequently, giving in to Robert...compromises Cat, Arya, and Sansa...in an attempt to save someone else's children, extending the 'madness' of mercy to the merciless (i.e. Cersei)...dooms himself and his own children...trying, in a last-ditch effort to salvage the situation, for the sake of his children...he only succeeds in compromising his 'honor'...and losing his head... by dying, he embroiled his family in a bloody war...

Whether he lived up to his vow or not, perhaps the non-disclosure of the secret itself was Ned's greatest sacrifice.  At heart, Ned was a person who desired to live an open, plain, simple, honest, straightforward, honorable, wholesome, etc. 'northern' life.  Having to keep so many secrets on behalf of other people, implicating himself in disingenuousness and duplicity, did not sit comfortably with him, and meant he was unable ever, really, to 'be himself.' 

Being unable to share the burden of these secrets with anyone (besides 'the heart tree') made him a lonely, broken figure.  Ironically, for someone who emphasized the importance of keeping faith with 'the pack,' he was a lone wolf.  Don't feel sorry for Jon; at least he had Ghost.  Unlike Jon, Ned didn't even have a direwolf to comfort him-- he was utterly alone with his very non-furry ghosts, and that's how he died, still ruminating on them, and how he'd let them all down.

 

Soooo much to agree with! 

I love the "beta-wolf" analogy!  I think the "pack" mentality is a great way to describe the Starks and their interactions with each other within the pack and with others from outside the pack.  And Ned clearly wasn't an alpha - not the way I read him, anyway.  He was doing a decent job of faking it - mostly because he WAS the Lord of Winterfell and everyone *treated* him like the alpha, but I didn't get the impression he felt that way.

[ravenous reader]

18 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

And Ned clearly wasn't an alpha - not the way I read him, anyway.  He was doing a decent job of faking it - mostly because he WAS the Lord of Winterfell and everyone *treated* him like the alpha, but I didn't get the impression he felt that way

What about Jon..?  It's clear the fanbase is expecting Jon to do the ultimate 'alpha-,' by grabbing hold of his 'destiny,' grabbing the girl everyone's lusting over to boot, and assuming his 'rightful' place on the throne.  However, like Ned, Jon is associated with a mute wolf!  Sometimes, I wonder if Jon might do an 'Aemon Targaryen,' and refuse the throne, in the interests of some (more 'beta'-) service...Just a thought!

[Jak Scaletongue]

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What about Jon..?  It's clear the fanbase is expecting Jon to do the ultimate 'alpha-,' by grabbing hold of his 'destiny,' grabbing the girl everyone's lusting over to boot, and assuming his 'rightful' place on the throne.  However, like Ned, Jon is associated with a mute wolf!  Sometimes, I wonder if Jon might do an 'Aemon Targaryen,' and refuse the throne, in the interests of some (more 'beta'-) service...Just a thought!

It wouldn't surprise me - he's always been the beta to Robb's alpha.  And Robb would be an alpha, I think.  He's the eldest, he's the heir, all the others look up to and respect him. 

[Neds Secret]

16 hours ago, joluoto2 said:

Ned made some kind of promise to Lyanna. And whatever it was he was keeping it, since he think about what keeping these promises has cost him.

So, all theories about Ned not keeping his promise to Lyanna are completely bs.

Complete bs??? That's a bit rough, I believe he is doin the best he can but the season thinks otherwise and since we do not know what the promises he made were we do not know how successful he has been, we need more information!

[Winter's Cold]

13 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

It wouldn't surprise me - he's always been the beta to Robb's alpha.  And Robb would be an alpha, I think.  He's the eldest, he's the heir, all the others look up to and respect him. 

Jon might not be an alpha but his wolf Ghost was and that may lead to a change in his personality. Also, it's clear that Arya looked up to Jon more than Robb. So Jon may have have not been an alpha but he can become one.

[Tijgy]

On 18-2-2016 at 1:28 AM, sweetsunray said:

I think Ned thought it a marvelous idea to hitch Lyanna to Robert. Robert and Ned were probably all in favor of this match for the same reasons - to be family; that it would be happy clappy ever after. Robert never went to WF before he visits in aGoT. And he was all in favor of marrying Lyanna before Harrenhal and speaks as if he met her at least once before HH. So, he met Lyanna in the Vale, most likely while she came to visit her brother. Lord Rickard would have hoped it would do the trick with Robert and Ned was swell with it. Except Lyanna. That's what I suspect happened for Robert to treat with Lord Rickard to marry Lyanna. He put aside any misgivings and signs of it from Lyanna to this match, waved it off. And more than a year later his father and brother have died, he had to fight to depose a king and the same sister has a son with another man who she does not hate and most likely fell in love with, might even have gone off with willingly. Anyway, I think Ned feels guilty for having been a bad brother to Lyanna, while he was the brother to Robert that Robert wished for.  

Personally I don't see it the same way as you do. Ned never showed any guilt about the Robert Rebellion itself. He felt maybe partly guilty for the deaths of Rhaegar's children and maybe for the whole stuff with Jon (whatever that might have been)

But he never showed any guilt for the fact Robert and Ned went to fight against Aerys and Rhaegar and for whatever his reactions were on this match. 

If you look directly at the quote: "Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

This is the only thing we have on Lyanna's and Ned's reaction directly to Rickard's plan to promise Lyanna's hand to Ned. According this memory Lyanna's main misgiving about Robert is the fact he will never be loyal to her. And she says this to Ned. Ned's answer is not his denial of this truth: "he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister." but he brought an assurance which consisted of Robert is a good man and he would love her with all his heart. IMO it is a wide stretch to call this waving any misgivings of her aside. 

If Lyanna really thought Ned was trying to force Robert too much on her, she would probably not called him "dearest Ned". And I certainly I cannot deduct from this little moment Ned loved Robert more than sister. Ned even thinks himself somewhere: "Ned had loved her with all his heart" in the crypts.   And there are several examples where Ned did not choose Robert but other people he loves or the innocents. 

The real sad thing about Ned is still this conversation between Lyanna and Ned. Lyanna showed there she is more the realistic one, when she said "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." And the real sad thing about Ned is that he has never become that realistic. Several times he believed that love would lead to the fact someone would make (according to him) the best choice. 

When he tries to plead for Lady's life ("Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."), Robert's love for Ned (and Lyanna) was not enough to change Robert's nature (=not going against the Lannisters). 

The main reason why he trusts Littlefinger is the (apparent) love LF has for Catelyn. And we all know LF part in everything; in how much tried to destroy the Starks (or more exactly Ned and Jon Arryn)

He goes to Cercei because he believes she would run away with her children because she loves them. But in the end Cercei actually loves the power her children represent. 

The sad thing about Ned is that he did put too must trust in the love people have for their loved ones. And I think this is actually a projection of himself towards other people. Like some people in this thread said already, Ned's greatest flaw is he loved some people too much (Robert, Lyanna, ...). But sadly he never realized the truth behind Lyanna's words. 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Personally I don't see it the same way as you do. Ned never showed any guilt about the Robert Rebellion itself. He felt maybe partly guilty for the deaths of Rhaegar's children and maybe for the whole stuff with Jon (whatever that might have been)

But he never showed any guilt for the fact Robert and Ned went to fight against Aerys and Rhaegar and for whatever his reactions were on this match. 

If you look directly at the quote: "Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

This is the only thing we have on Lyanna's and Ned's reaction directly to Rickard's plan to promise Lyanna's hand to Ned. According this memory Lyanna's main misgiving about Robert is the fact he will never be loyal to her. And she says this to Ned. Ned's answer is not his denial of this truth: "he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister." but he brought an assurance which consisted of Robert is a good man and he would love her with all his heart. IMO it is a wide stretch to call this waving any misgivings of her aside. 

If Lyanna really thought Ned was trying to force Robert too much on her, she would probably not called him "dearest Ned". And I certainly I cannot deduct from this little moment Ned loved Robert more than sister. Ned even thinks himself somewhere: "Ned had loved her with all his heart" in the crypts.   And there are several examples where Ned did not choose Robert but other people he loves or the innocents. 

The real sad thing about Ned is still this conversation between Lyanna and Ned. Lyanna showed there she is more the realistic one, when she said "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." And the real sad thing about Ned is that he has never become that realistic. Several times he believed that love would lead to the fact someone would make (according to him) the best choice. 

When he tries to plead for Lady's life ("Please, Robert. For the love you bear me. For the love you bore my sister. Please."), Robert's love for Ned (and Lyanna) was not enough to change Robert's nature (=not going against the Lannisters). 

The main reason why he trusts Littlefinger is the (apparent) love LF has for Catelyn. And we all know LF part in everything; in how much tried to destroy the Starks (or more exactly Ned and Jon Arryn)

He goes to Cercei because he believes she would run away with her children because she loves them. But in the end Cercei actually loves the power her children represent. 

The sad thing about Ned is that he did put too must trust in the love people have for their loved ones. And I think this is actually a projection of himself towards other people. Like some people in this thread said already, Ned's greatest flaw is he loved some people too much (Robert, Lyanna, ...). But sadly he never realized the truth behind Lyanna's words. 

I agree completely that his expectations from others are based on love. He's very much a romantic in that sense.

I don't however see what it has to do with guilt. The reason why I think his guilt has to do with introducing Lyanna to Robert and pre-RR events, is because of the Loras-Gregor fight. This for me is the metaphorical link to Lyanna being pranced about in front of horny stallion Robert and everything that happens up until Ned's beheading. Hence why Loras' mare is bedecked with "forget me nots" (instead of a roses). A scene of the far past and a scene of what's still to come.

The reason why I don't put that opinion in the essays you read of mine, is because ultimately I don't think it's all that important and I'd admit it's tenious.