Does cannabis/marijuana and tobacco exist in Planetos?

[TimJames]

1 hour ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

This simply isn't true. Was hemp/hashish used heavily in the Middle East? Yes.

But hemp was extremely common in the West too, before drug prohibition ever became a thing. Hemp was one of the first plants cultivated by civilized humans and it spread into Europe before the founding of the Greek states.

Upon further research, it turns out you're right: in 500 BC the Greek Writer Herodotus describes it as being introduced by the Scythians.

Though in any case, marijuana in the past was thought of and used very differently than it is today. It was used mostly as rope or fiber. While people DID use it to get high, they did so by mixing it in alcohol or employing it as a cooking ingredient. Europeans only started smoking in the 1600s, and Marijuana is a Old World crop so Native Americans didn't get it until The Colombian Exchange. 

As for the question of it's presence in the story, I mentioned before how ASOIAF has something called "Sourleaf" that people chew. GRRM likes to give things fantastical sounding names (which sounds better, "Milk of the Poppy" or "Opium"?) so it is possible that Sourleaf is supposed to be cannabis (admittedly it could also be tobacco, or a cannabis-tobacco hybrid).

*Source: http://www.hashish.net/history/

[Walda]

9 hours ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

I could have sworn I remember reading about "hemp ropes" somewhere in the book. Maybe on the ship Arya was on to Braavos. If anyone has any clues or book evidence of hemp/cannabis/tobacco, it would be appreciated. 

Your working memory called, it wanted to remind you:

The Night's watch has a bloke that deals in Hemp

Quote

Hempen Dan the ropemaker.(ASoS,Ch.41 Jon V)

The wildlings have hemp

Quote

In the very shadow of the Wall the wildlings made ready, winding thick coils of hempen rope around one shoulder and down across their chests,(ASoS, Ch.30 Jon IV)
The raiders Jarl had left below uncasked a huge ladder, with rungs of woven hemp as thick as a man’s arm, and tied it to the climbers’ rope.(ASoS,Ch.26 Jon III)

Winterfell has hemp

Quote

All about the yard, dead men hung half-frozen at the end of hempen ropes, swollen faces white with hoarfrost. (ADwD, Ch.37 The Prince of Winterfell)

spearwives have hemp

Quote

Frenya had a girdle of hempen rope wound about her middle from her hips to breasts. It made her look even more massive than she was.(ADwD, Ch.51 Theon I)

As Ser Hyle notes, the Riverlands are huge on hemp
The Freys share theirs with Edmure

Quote

Edmure wore a soiled silken tunic striped in Tully red and blue, and a noose of hempen rope.(AFfC,Ch.38 Jaime VI)

The Brave Companions share theirs with Brienne

Quote

Brienne rubbed inside her wrist where the hemp had scraped her skin bloody. “My lord, these men tried to rape me.”(ASoS,Ch.31 Jaime IV)

The Brotherhood Without Banners are big on hemp

Quote

They had bound his wrists with hempen rope, strung a noose around his neck, and pulled a sack down over his head, (ASoS, Ch.34 Arya VI)

And they distribute it from Stoney Sept

Quote

Lem reined up scowling. “What’s this, now?”
“Justice,” answered a woman at the fountain.
“What, did you run short o’ hempen rope?”(ASoS, Ch.29 Arya V)

to the Saltpans

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Each man wore a noose around his neck, and swung from a length of hempen rope, and each man’s mouth was packed with salt.(AFfC,Ch.37 Brienne VII)

The Sparrows of Kings Landing have hemp

Quote

in robes of brown and butternut and dun and even undyed roughspun, belted with lengths of hempen rope.(AFfC, Ch.08 Jaime I)

The Iron Isles have hemp

Quote

Bridges knotted Pyke together; arched bridges of carved stone and swaying spans of hempen rope and wooden planks.(AFfC, Ch.01 The Prophet)

Euron Greyjoy shares his hemp with the Shield Islanders

Quote

a line of women and children herded up onto the deck of one of the great cogs. Some had their hands bound behind their backs, and all wore loops of hempen rope about their necks.(AFfC,Ch.29 The Reaver)

Braavos has hemp

Quote

The blades were for them, though so far the blind girl had not been forced to use them. A cracked wooden begging bowl and belt of hempen rope completed her garb.(ADwD, Ch.45 The Blind Girl)

The Roynar have hemp

Quote

On the Shy Maid, he made his bed atop the roof of the cabin, with a coil of hempen rope for a pillow. (ADwD,Ch.14 Tyrion IV)

 
You can see how GRRM uses hemp. Even when it is in the useful form of a bridge, or a ladder, or a rescue,  it is associated with death. Even when it is just tethering a boat, there is greyscale creeping down it.

About the only form of smoking in Westeros, is the incense censors of the Faith, also associated with death.

[Cymorococh]

Smoke em smoke em

smoke em if you got em

If you don't got em

then you hit flea bottom

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

9 hours ago, TimJames said:

Upon further research, it turns out you're right: in 500 BC the Greek Writer Herodotus describes it as being introduced by the Scythians.

Though in any case, marijuana in the past was thought of and used very differently than it is today. It was used mostly as rope or fiber. While people DID use it to get high, they did so by mixing it in alcohol or employing it as a cooking ingredient. Europeans only started smoking in the 1600s, and Marijuana is a Old World crop so Native Americans didn't get it until The Colombian Exchange. 

As for the question of it's presence in the story, I mentioned before how ASOIAF has something called "Sourleaf" that people chew. GRRM likes to give things fantastical sounding names (which sounds better, "Milk of the Poppy" or "Opium"?) so it is possible that Sourleaf is supposed to be cannabis (admittedly it could also be tobacco, or a cannabis-tobacco hybrid).

*Source: http://www.hashish.net/history/

 I thought Sourleaf was a good candidate for tobacco or cannabis (i.e. "Sour Diesel") but we figured out that Sourleaf was in fact the Westerosi counterpart to Paan, which is chewed by South-Asian/Indian people commonly.

Apparently Paan is a big problem in Western countries where spitting is considered rude and because the spit of these Paan-chewers is really dark red and hard to wash out and so it makes roads/architecture look rusted and decayed, when in reality it's just dyed. 

 

6 hours ago, Walda said:

Your working memory called, it wanted to remind you:

The Night's watch has a bloke that deals in Hemp

The wildlings have hemp

Winterfell has hemp

spearwives have hemp

As Ser Hyle notes, the Riverlands are huge on hemp
The Freys share theirs with Edmure

The Brave Companions share theirs with Brienne

The Brotherhood Without Banners are big on hemp

And they distribute it from Stoney Sept

to the Saltpans

The Sparrows of Kings Landing have hemp

The Iron Isles have hemp

Euron Greyjoy shares his hemp with the Shield Islanders

Braavos has hemp

The Roynar have hemp

 
You can see how GRRM uses hemp. Even when it is in the useful form of a bridge, or a ladder, or a rescue,  it is associated with death. Even when it is just tethering a boat, there is greyscale creeping down it.

About the only form of smoking in Westeros, is the incense censors of the Faith, also associated with death.

Yeah, after looking through the instances of "hemp" use in ASOIAF, I made the same conclusion as you - it's associated with death often times. If the Wildlings climbed The Wall using hemp rope, that's pretty telling that hemp is a common crop in Westeros. 

[hiemal]

Perhaps dreamwine is a tincture of cannabis?

I was thinking something like a cross between betel nuts and coca leaves for sourleaf.

[Jak Scaletongue]

11 hours ago, TimJames said:

Upon further research, it turns out you're right: in 500 BC the Greek Writer Herodotus describes it as being introduced by the Scythians.

Though in any case, marijuana in the past was thought of and used very differently than it is today. It was used mostly as rope or fiber. While people DID use it to get high, they did so by mixing it in alcohol or employing it as a cooking ingredient. Europeans only started smoking in the 1600s, and Marijuana is a Old World crop so Native Americans didn't get it until The Colombian Exchange. 

As for the question of it's presence in the story, I mentioned before how ASOIAF has something called "Sourleaf" that people chew. GRRM likes to give things fantastical sounding names (which sounds better, "Milk of the Poppy" or "Opium"?) so it is possible that Sourleaf is supposed to be cannabis (admittedly it could also be tobacco, or a cannabis-tobacco hybrid).

*Source: http://www.hashish.net/history/

There's also some difference between the plants, too, right?  Not all hemp plants produce THC.  From what I understand (and I may be wrong) - all hemp plants can be used to make rope, clothes, paper, etc.  Only certain kinds of hemp plants produce THC-rich buds that are commonly smoked.

The Scythians were also known to build sweat houses and sometimes tossed some marijuana on the brazier.   It seems to be more of a ritual, from the few articles I've come across it.  It wasn't "recreational" use, it tended to be religious/spiritual - the sweat house + marijuana.  Sweat houses were common for "baths" (water can be hard to come by in the steppe!) and marijuana was used to intoxicate when mixed with something, but the sweat house+marijuana combo (so far; there's plenty of archaeological gaps when dealing with a nomadic people) appears to be ritualistic rather than recreational. (Excuse my tangent - I find the Scythians absolutely fascinating!  I am merely an amateur though, and it's been a little while since I've needed the info - hell, new info may have come out since!)

[LadyoftheNorth72]

21 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said:

I can't recall any kind of smoking being done anywhere, so my guess is no. Its worth noting not that there are a number of animals in Planetos that do not exist in the real world, so we shouldn't assume all real life plants exist there.

Admittedly I do sometimes find myself wishing it existed in the series, as reading while smoking is one of my favorite pastimes. 

This is somewhat OT, but now I'm trying to think of animals in Planetos (besides the obvious fantasy type, dragons and unicorns, etc) that do not exist in our world, or never did. I'm probably having a mental block due to a lack of caffeine, but can't think of any that have no basis in reality. 

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

25 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

There's also some difference between the plants, too, right?  Not all hemp plants produce THC.  From what I understand (and I may be wrong) - all hemp plants can be used to make rope, clothes, paper, etc.  Only certain kinds of hemp plants produce THC-rich buds that are commonly smoked.

The Scythians were also known to build sweat houses and sometimes tossed some marijuana on the brazier.   It seems to be more of a ritual, from the few articles I've come across it.  It wasn't "recreational" use, it tended to be religious/spiritual - the sweat house + marijuana.  Sweat houses were common for "baths" (water can be hard to come by in the steppe!) and marijuana was used to intoxicate when mixed with something, but the sweat house+marijuana combo (so far; there's plenty of archaeological gaps when dealing with a nomadic people) appears to be ritualistic rather than recreational. (Excuse my tangent - I find the Scythians absolutely fascinating!  I am merely an amateur though, and it's been a little while since I've needed the info - hell, new info may have come out since!)

All Hemp plants produce THC, but MALE plants produce very little THC and rougher, stronger fibers, so they're better used for industry (hemp.)

When we speak of cannabis (the type of "hemp" that people use to get stoned) we're talking about the FEMALE plant. The buds of the female plant are what people actually use medicinally.

Basically, you could smoke the male "hemp" plant but it doesn't have enough THC to get you baked.

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

3 minutes ago, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

This is somewhat OT, but now I'm trying to think of animals in Planetos (besides the obvious fantasy type, dragons and unicorns, etc) that do not exist in our world, or never did. I'm probably having a mental block due to a lack of caffeine, but can't think of any that have no basis in reality. 

Not really off topic, since flora and fauna of Planetos are entirely relevant to this topic.

Zorses are the only unrealistic animal I can think of, because even though they look like horses, riding a zebra is not going to happen in our world. Their body structure is actually pretty different from horses and they wouldn't be able to carry a thin person's weight well. It would be like riding your golden retriever, not very kind. 

[Snoop Arryn]

Foshizzle.

[Jak Scaletongue]

23 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

All Hemp plants produce THC, but MALE plants produce very little THC and rougher, stronger fibers, so they're better used for industry (hemp.)

When we speak of cannabis (the type of "hemp" that people use to get stoned) we're talking about the FEMALE plant. The buds of the female plant are what people actually use medicinally.

Basically, you could smoke the male "hemp" plant but it doesn't have enough THC to get you baked.

I knew I was missing something!  Your explanation is bringing it all back to me!

21 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

Not really off topic, since flora and fauna of Planetos are entirely relevant to this topic.

Zorses are the only unrealistic animal I can think of, because even though they look like horses, riding a zebra is not going to happen in our world. Their body structure is actually pretty different from horses and they wouldn't be able to carry a thin person's weight well. It would be like riding your golden retriever, not very kind. 

Zorse's are...kind of...present IRL.  Not usually a naturally occurring species, but a zebra mated with a horse is a thing (it's got a few names "zorse" being just one).  They are generally sterile, like a mule is.  According to Wikipedia (cause I'm lazy...):

Quote

A zebroid (also zedonk, zorse, zebra mule, zonkey, and zebmule) is the offspring of any cross between a zebra and any other equine: essentially, a zebra hybrid. In most cases, the sire is a zebra stallion. Offspring of a donkey sire and zebra dam, called a zebra hinny, or donkra, do exist but are rare. Zebroids have been bred since the 19th century. Charles Darwin noted several zebra hybrids in his works.

I've heard about "zorse" and "zonkey" before...maybe it's just me, but the wiki page is very interesting!  The above is the intro to the page, but under the Contents check out Types - they've got every possible option under the sun!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebroid

 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I used to think that lizard-lions were alligators or crocodiles, but they appear in the GRRM short story "A Beast for Norn" and are most definitely not.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I used to think that lizard-lions were alligators or crocodiles, but they appear in the GRRM short story "A Beast for Norn" and are most definitely not.

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I used to think that lizard-lions were alligators or crocodiles, but they appear in the GRRM short story "A Beast for Norn" and are most definitely not.

I've always wondered about the lizard-lions because of their Northerly environment.  Details on the "Beast"?

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Just now, hiemal said:

I've always wondered about that because of their Northerly environment.  Details on the "Beast"?

They have crocodilian heads, but a long whip-like tail that they hold above their body, that they can use to attack creatures in front of them.  One of them is killed in a pit fight against a psionic great cat that is able to dodge the tail because of it's mind reading ability.  I remember their long tails are mentioned in ASoIaF so I am fairly certain they are the same creature.  I don't know if they are alien in origin or genetically engineered Earth creatures.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

I used to think that lizard-lions were alligators or crocodiles, but they appear in the GRRM short story "A Beast for Norn" and are most definitely not.

We know what lizard lions look like and do, so I'd have to disagree with you on those accounts. Aside from that, I'm not sure how useful a short story set in a different time and world is relevant to ASOIAF.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We know what lizard lions look like and do, so I'd have to disagree with you on those accounts. Aside from that, I'm not sure how useful a short story set in a different time and world is relevant to ASOIAF.

ASoIaF is probably set on a planet seeded by the EEC or maybe even by Haviland Tuf, based on the many similarities to the Thousand World's setting.  GRRM has said it's not set in the Thousand Worlds, but that does not mean it's not connected - for one thing, due to it's long occupation by humans, Planetos has to be set many thousands of years in the future of the Thousand Worlds stories.  The Thousand Worlds refers to a specific era and region of the galaxy, if Tuf or one of his descendants went out of human space, possibly out beyond the Veil, and colonized a world there, technically ASoIaF would not be part of the Thousand Worlds.

The Thousand Worlds setting also has time manipulation technology, which could explain some of the strangeness with the seasons and the disparate rates of evolution among the different beings of Planetos.  All the magic could easily be explained by psionics, which have the potential to be very powerful, especially if enhanced by certain alien life forms (like weirwood trees or a certain spacefaring alien creature that travels through the galaxy and can appear as a strangely colored comet).

[Jak Scaletongue]

8 minutes ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

They have crocodilian heads, but a long whip-like tail that they hold above their body, that they can use to attack creatures in front of them.  One of them is killed in a pit fight against a psionic great cat that is able to dodge the tail because of it's mind reading ability.  I remember their long tails are mentioned in ASoIaF so I am fairly certain they are the same creature.  I don't know if they are alien in origin or genetically engineered Earth creatures.

Kind of like a scorpion mixed with a croc or gator?

7 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We know what lizard lions look like and do, so I'd have to disagree with you on those accounts. Aside from that, I'm not sure how useful a short story set in a different time and world is relevant to ASOIAF.

We do?  Where have we been told what lizard-lions are?  Cause this has been up for discussion on other threads and the best we could come up with we that they weren't crocodiles because Dany sees crocodiles in Essos, and calls them crocodiles.  I think the consensus was that maybe they were like alligators, cause crocodiles are an "old-world" animal and alligators a "new-world" animal IRL. (I'll see if I can find the thread before I go home - and maybe I'm behind on it, too!)

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

4 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Kind of like a scorpion mixed with a croc or gator?

 

The tail is not poisonous or barbed, but it can be whipped so quickly that it can smash the bones of large predators.  I also got the impression that the lizard-lion had a more upright stance than crocodilians and could run faster.  I am not 100% sure, I'll have to re-read it, but I think they were also described as being golden in color.

[Jak Scaletongue]

14 minutes ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

The tail is not poisonous or barbed, but it can be whipped so quickly that it can smash the bones of large predators.  I also got the impression that the lizard-lion had a more upright stance than crocodilians and could run faster.  I am not 100% sure, I'll have to re-read it, but I think they were also described as being golden in color.

Hmmm - now I've got a mini-raptor crossed with a croc pictured in my mind!  Not as cool as the scorcroc (crocpion?) cross I'd created in there tho....not that the images in my head are anything to go by...