Is it possible that Sweetrobin is Littlefingers son?

[Lord Greenhood]

If i remember correctly Lysa and Littlefinger were both in kingslanding for much of Jon's position as hand of the king. And if Littlefinger could convince Lysa to murder her husband is would seem likely that their ''romance'' had continued throughout the years.

Also there is this line ''Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath. So you see, I have suffered too.''

Any thought?

Also i just looked it up Jon Arryn was blonde while Lysa was auburn, Robert has brown hair and Petyr has dark hair. We know that GRRM takes hair color into account.

[GoWesteros]

I'd buy it tbh. Might be a cool reveal, but I feel like there would be some hints about it throughout the series. Surely he would really be pushing for Sansa to marry Robin then? 

[Lord Greenhood]

My guess would be that littlefinger does not know that Sweetrobin is his son seeing as he is trying to poison him with sweetsleep

[Lord Greenhood]

Bump

[Equilibrium]

Yeah, I thought of it before, it would be nice twist to see Littlefinger sacrifice his son either knowingly or unknowingly.

It doesn't bring much to the story, there is little chance of surprise reveal and karmic justice of LF killing his son is somewhat lost as Littlefinger is not the Tywin type of parent obsessed with legacy and family glory. Even if he was pulling the same Aesop twice is not really that worth, and as it happens LF cares only about one member of his family.

[Jaak]

No. Impossible.

Look at what Lysa tells at the scene at the Moon Door.

She goes on about the child she would have given to Petyr, who was killed by Hoster. And at a point, she tells about the frustration of seeing Petyr constantly at Red Keep, but not daring to touch.

If there was any chance whatever that Robin could have been Petyr´s, Lysa would have told it then.

The only possible explanation is that Lysa and Petyr never committed adultery, and Lysa knew Petyr knew it, so she could not claim these children or adultery among the stuff she had done for him.

Which is credible - Petyr could easily have kept fobbing off Lysa by telling her it was too dangerous, and he would not have been seeking to create opportunities because he was not really hot for Lysa.

[sarah.jenice]

10 minutes ago, Jaak said:

No. Impossible.

Look at what Lysa tells at the scene at the Moon Door.

She goes on about the child she would have given to Petyr, who was killed by Hoster. And at a point, she tells about the frustration of seeing Petyr constantly at Red Keep, but not daring to touch.

If there was any chance whatever that Robin could have been Petyr´s, Lysa would have told it then.

The only possible explanation is that Lysa and Petyr never committed adultery, and Lysa knew Petyr knew it, so she could not claim these children or adultery among the stuff she had done for him.

Which is credible - Petyr could easily have kept fobbing off Lysa by telling her it was too dangerous, and he would not have been seeking to create opportunities because he was not really hot for Lysa.

I think it could go either way.

Consider this conversation before Lysa and Peter get married in ASOS:

Quote

“…I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” She put her arms around him. “I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

 

…

 

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eryie!”

 

That sounds kind of like they haven't had sex, but on the other hand, "silence and whisperings" could be secret sex.

If Sweetrobin is LF's son, it's even more sad that he has no qualms about killing him.

[Red Man Racey]

1 hour ago, Equilibrium said:

Yeah, I thought of it before, it would be nice twist to see Littlefinger sacrifice his son either knowingly or unknowingly.

It doesn't bring much to the story, there is little chance of surprise reveal and karmic justice of LF killing his son is somewhat lost as Littlefinger is not the Tywin type of parent obsessed with legacy and family glory. Even if he was pulling the same Aesop twice is not really that worth, and as it happens LF cares only about one member of his family.

You beat me to it. If Sweetrobin is Petyr's son he may or may not know, but even if he does know he doesn't care. Petyr isn't concerned with familial dynasty -- he's in it for himself. He strikes me as the type who would see a son as a challenger and not as an heir.

[The Arthur Smith]

A very cool idea. But i doubt Littlefinger would be stupid enough to sleep with Lysa. In fact, if Littlefinger is indeed Robert's father, then Lysa would have mention this right before Littlefinger pushed her off the moon door. Though, who's Sweetrobin's father could might as well left ambiguous for the readers to guess. Like the others said, it doesn't bring relevance or device to the plot and Sansa may never know about the secret.

[Lord Greenhood]

In ASoIaF Kinslayers are usually made to suffer greatly for their sin, even does who don't know of the kinship. As in the case with Theon who killed the miller boys, one of which was most likely his son. My though would be that if Littlefinger murders Sweetrobin it will be his undoing, if not directly it would be a sign that he will not survive the series.

 

[Walda]

It's possible.

The 'weak seed' line is clearly bs, though, as she goes on to say she conceived five children and bore them long enough for their gender to be determinate, although they were all either still-born,  or died soon after birth. That lets Jon Arryn off the hook, unless all these children were Petyr's. And of course, it is impossible to talk of weak seed without reminding the reader of his dying words, or of what Lysa told Catelyn they meant. She is a contrary lady, that one.

It does make me wonder if Lysa Arryn was taking some kind of posset that made her eyes watery and her skin pasty - a calming and addictive one that was transmitted through breastmilk, so SweetRobin's shaking spells were in fact withdrawal symptoms, and Sansa was right, they were becoming less severe when he couldn't self-medicate and Maester Coleman is administering it to control his fits,  on the basis that the tonic had seemed to work on his mother's constitution and might therefore work on his. 

There is an outside chance Petyr might  administer it to SweetRobin himself, or order it to be administered. I doubt it though, as he likes to keep his hands clean, and we can see with the Sweetsleep, that while he encourages, he does not dictate, and he always has an apparently reasonable excuse for suggesting. 

Although, if it was a tonic that SweetRobin was taking via the breast, Lysa would be aware she was taking it, wouldn't she? If it was in a favourite wine that darling Petyr always supplied her, she might use it regularly due to addiction, but if there was an interruption to her supply, as was very probably the case in the two years she was at the Eyrie while Petyr was serving Eddard, Cersei, and Tywin in Kings Landing, she would have shaking spells, and she and Maester Coleman would soon get to the bottom of what was ailing her darling child, and either leave that wine out of her diet, or stop breastfeeding SweetRobin.

So, she must have taken it consciously - perhaps as a fertility potion (in that case, even under Jon Arryn's direction), or a calming tonic against hysteria (medieval medicine: the womb was believed to produce unbalancing humours that made women crazy and agitated for no reason- hence hysteria from the greek 'hysterikas' meaning 'suffering of the womb'), or perhaps as a contraceptive.

If the latter, and Lysa knew it, then it is very likely that SweetRobin survived because he was Petyr's son, and the others died because they were not. It would be just like Lysa to blame Jon Arryn's seed, knowing the deaths of the other children were her own secret doing. Although stillbirths, miscarriages, and deformities are common in the Arryn family, thanks to their Targaryen blood, and the Tullys also have Targaryen blood, which makes it all the more likely there would be difficulties. Still, Jon Arryn had no luck getting a child from either of his two previous non-Tully wives. Perhaps the seed was too strong.

Jon might have been making a study of his fertility before he died- his interest in breeding dogs, and his interest in the breeding of Great Houses, might have been inspired as much by concerns about his own fertility as King Robert's.

Come to think of it, Stannis had concerns about still-births and miscarriages, and some preoccupation in getting a heir that would bear children of his own name, too.

Also, it seems Stannis didn't claim Joffrey was a bastard until after he received Ned's letter telling him the throne was his by rights.

We don't know this absolutely, as illiterate Davos only sees Stannis "at his Painted Table with Maester Pylos at his shoulder, an untidy pile of papers before them."(ACoK, Ch.10 Davos I)  There is no sight of a Direwolf seal, but plenty of time for the letter to have arrived and been read by then. 

The last time we see the actual parchment, was just after Ned had written and sealed it, and instructed Cayn to get Captin Qos to deliver it to Dragonstone, immediately before Petyr arrived in AGoT, Ch.47 Eddard XIII.

We don't know if Cayn took it as he was waved away, or if he took it after Baelish left. There is even the possibility that Petyr had seen and snaffled it - although I doubt he did it then and there, as Eddard was paranoid by then, and if there was no letter to give to Cayn after Petyr left, he would never have trusted Petyr to acknowledge him Lord Protector, or his gold cloaks to protect him against Cersei and Joffrey in the throne room.

Of course, if Petyr was aware of the letter he could ensure the Wind Witch did not leave King's Landing until the letter had been recovered, and over the dead bodies of Lord Stark's men, but there is a chance that Cayn got it to Captain Qos before then, and that Qos did eventually get it to Stannis at Dragonstone.

There is also a chance that Petyr Baelish wanted it sent to Dragonstone anyway - he needed Stannis and the war to show his fealty to Cersei (and Renly), to win his lands and Lordship, and to direct their attention away from him and the Vale. In that case he might want to break the seal, examine the contents and reseal it before sending it on with Qos or in one of his own ships, or in the Wind Witch with one of his own men dressed as the Winterfell captain of the guard. In that case, he would probably need to deal with Varys, who is the person who knows most about breaking seals, reading and resealing, and who in any case ends up with Ned's seals (AGoT, Ch.51 Sansa IV).

Either way, Stannis never mentioned that he had visited the forge and seen Gendry with his own eyes, let alone that he had visited the brothel and seen Barra. Even when pressed by Renly for proof (ACoK, Ch.31 Catelyn III) , he doesn't mention them, or Malleon, although he says enough for Catelyn to find her own proofs of it.

Also, it occurs to me he could have mentioned that Eddard knew and supported his claim to the throne, as a proof for Renly and Catelyn. Maybe that excellent point was on the tip of his tongue before the peach and the taunt about his lack of sons replaced it with angry threats.

I'm not sure if the implied intention to kill SweetRobin is there merely because the threat of harming children is a favourite device GRRM uses to ratchet up the tension in the reader, to break up an exposition dump that might otherwise be obviously that, and to distract us from details that might otherwise stand out (see AGoT Ch.08 Bran II; and ASoS, Ch.28 Sansa III for particularly laboured examples). The good news is, as soon as his point is made, what needed to be said, is said, whats done is done, the threat he has been holding suspense with evaporates. Eg. Bran did not accidentally fall while he was overhearing Jaime and Cersei; Sansa was not raped by Tyrion on her wedding night (although he did expose himself to her and fondle her breast, while insisting she was a child, which is creepy to say the least); and maybe Petyr has no intention of killing SweetRobin and GRRM only implies it to keep us reading.

[finger]

That possibility of SR being LF's son is clearly hinted, imo. In fact. it might have been the reason to kill Jon Arryn.

According to descriptions, SR favoured LF as much as Joffrey favoured Jaime rather than Robert. If Arryn was researching about parentages, he could as well question his own. If Lysa and LF had been lovers for years, I wonder why they should murder and old man like Arryn, what had  changed? I guess Lysa went mad for fear that Arryn could suspect for SR features, so they planned his murder. Otherwise , I don't see she'd be brave enough to perform the deed. There must have been a strong force to convince her, like being scared.

[The Glad King]

4 hours ago, finger said:

That possibility of SR being LF's son is clearly hinted, imo. In fact. it might have been the reason to kill Jon Arryn.

According to descriptions, SR favoured LF as much as Joffrey favoured Jaime rather than Robert. If Arryn was researching about parentages, he could as well question his own. If Lysa and LF had been lovers for years, I wonder why they should murder and old man like Arryn, what had  changed? I guess Lysa went mad for fear that Arryn could suspect for SR features, so they planned his murder. Otherwise , I don't see she'd be brave enough to perform the deed. There must have been a strong force to convince her, like being scared.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Littlefinger wanted Jon Arryn killed to make people think that the Lannisters murdered him. We know that he is a master of manipulation. We don't know exactly how he convinced her to do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to convince a mentally unstable woman-child who is obsessed with you to do your bidding, especially when your name is Petyr Baelish.  

[finger]

8 hours ago, The Glad King said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Littlefinger wanted Jon Arryn killed to make people think that the Lannisters murdered him. We know that he is a master of manipulation. We don't know exactly how he convinced her to do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to convince a mentally unstable woman-child who is obsessed with you to do your bidding, especially when your name is Petyr Baelish.  

I've always thought that Littlefinger starting a war on purpose is far too stretched. I find it more understandable the other way round.

Arryn plays the who's father is who game. Lysa panics to be discovered. They kill Arryn. Lysa still panics, this time for the murder to be discovered. They make up a plot to involve the Lannisters, taking profit that they also had something to fear from Arryn.

[Jaak]

13 hours ago, The Glad King said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Littlefinger wanted Jon Arryn killed to make people think that the Lannisters murdered him. We know that he is a master of manipulation. We don't know exactly how he convinced her to do it, but it shouldn't be too hard to convince a mentally unstable woman-child who is obsessed with you to do your bidding, especially when your name is Petyr Baelish.  

I believe it was wrong. Making people think that Lannisters murdered Jon was dealing with problems caused by murdering Jon.

What changed?

Jon wanted to foster Robin with Stannis.

This did not fit either Lysa or Petyr.

Lysa had been nursing Robin for years and could have kept doing so, as she did after getting rid of Jon. Petyr had been held office under Jon for years, and could have kept doing so - would keep office under Eddard and Tyrion.

The problem for Petyr was that Stannis did not like him, and Jon could have fired Petyr just as a favour for Stannis.

So both Lysa and Petyr had to do something, as status quo was ending anyway - and did.

[Nerevanin]

I think that it is totally possible. Lysa and LF apparently had affair while in KL (remember the "whispers and silence" line) and it would totally make sense in Lysa's not so normal mind to abort all children fathered by JonA whom she hated and keep a child fathered by her precious and beloved LF. I doubt that LF is aware of it though.

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

On 3/22/2016 at 8:44 AM, Lord Greenhood said:

My guess would be that littlefinger does not know that Sweetrobin is his son seeing as he is trying to poison him with sweetsleep

You don't think Littlefinger is above poisoning his own son?

Littlefinger is partially responsible for Cat dying, so I see no reason why he wouldn't indirectly poison Sweetrobin.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

You don't think Littlefinger is above poisoning his own son?

Littlefinger is partially responsible for Cat dying, so I see no reason why he wouldn't indirectly poison Sweetrobin.

 Little finger hoarded wheat and caused the bread crisis in King's Landing then made money off the starvation of others. He would kill his own son, I think.

[dread wolf]

isn't it known that jon arryn was old and wasn't exactly healthy when he married lysa and they struggled to procreate?

and sweetrobin is a sickly child right.

 

 

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I think that it is totally possible. Lysa and LF apparently had affair while in KL (remember the "whispers and silence" line) and it would totally make sense in Lysa's not so normal mind to abort all children fathered by JonA whom she hated and keep a child fathered by her precious and beloved LF. I doubt that LF is aware of it though.

LF would have known if he had had an affair with Lysa - she could not impersonate Cat any longer. And if there was any chance Robin could have been Petyr´s son, Lysa would have told Petyr about Robin. Not emphasized the child who was aborted.

 

She did not call Robin Petyr´s son. Therefore there was no chance Robin could have been that, and Petyr knew.