In Defense of Freys

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

War or not, there are always lines that shouldn't be crossed. Take JonCon - had he burnt Stoney Sept to the ground, he would have killed Robert, perhaps ended the Rebellion, and saved Rhaegar's life. He didn't, because it would have been butchery, an atrocity, far above the usual warfare.

Didnt Hoster Tully do something similar to his own vassals the Goodbrooks?

It seems Connington was unwilling to do something the rebels would have done in his position.

[Sullen]

9 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Known better about what?  

Robb didn't think he was at war with the Freys. The Freys never told him that they were at war with him. Instead they made demands he complied, took responsibility for what he did(not a lot of characters can say they ever did this)and tried to make amends. It didn't work. 

That's what Robb should have known better about.

He had just betrayed them, hundreds of Frey troops died for a promise he candidly threw away, expecting them to simply roll over and let bygones be bygones is simply foolish.

Robb doesn't even want to make amends with Walder out of a feeling of guilt, but simply because he was desperate and needs his help to take back Moat Cailin, wasting even more Frey lives.

12 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I could see your point if the Freys were openly hostile to Robb and threatened his life and than they invited him to the Twins and the idiot gladly goes. Than yeah he should be aware to watch his back. 

If he doesn't believe that someone he just stabbed in the back could possibly be hostile to him, openly or not, then he is a fool.

[The Wolves]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

We have reports that he did. Northmen raped and plundered from their own allies in Stoney Sept, Northmen killed sleeping children in their beds. I really don't see how this is any less likely than the other times Northmen have acted in a less than honourable manner.

When did Robb desecrate bodies? Yeah I'm not going to believe a bunch of Lannisters and their men make up stories to make Robb some horrible Northmen. 

And no Northmen are not above doing those atrocities Manderly went above and beyond desecrating bodies. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, The Wolves said:

When did Robb desecrate bodies? Yeah I'm not going to believe a bunch of Lannisters and their men make up stories to make Robb some horrible Northmen. 

And no Northmen are not above doing those atrocities Manderly went above and beyond desecrating bodies. 

That quote I used was not from a Lannister, it was from singers at Riverrun celebrating Robb's victories.

[LordPathera]

17 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

He was responsible for around 500-1,000 Frey deaths.

lol No he didn't. He tried to make amends because he needed them.

We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope.

 

Sure it is worse, though not far worse. Robb betrayed the Freys, he costs hundreds of them to die and made them enemies of the Crown by making them (and no other Riverlord) go West to pay them back in kind.

He used the Freys and then betrayed them.

1) Those 500-1000 weren't directly killed by Robb.

2) How is this not trying to make amends? Needing the Freys doesn't demean the fact that Robb knew that he'd wronged the Freys and he took the initiative to try and set things right. "...I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires..." 

3) He also tried to make amends with them for slighting them with full acknowledgement of what he'd done.

There's nothing that can excuse the Freys.

[The Wolves]

Just now, thelittledragonthatcould said:

That quote I used was not from a Lannister, it was from singers at Riverrun celebrating Robb's victories.

That doesn't mean he did it. The singer probably heard tells from people exaggerating. 

Ned doesn't seem like the type to raise his children to desecrate dead bodies and I would hope Robb thought better of Grey Wind than to let him feed on Lannisters, Grey Wind deserves better than that. 

[desire]

It was a pretty dick move tbh

[Sullen]

4 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

1) Those 500-1000 weren't directly killed by Robb.

He sent them to a war they wanted no part of under false pretenses, that's pretty damned close.

5 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

2) How is this not trying to make amends? Needing the Freys doesn't demean the fact that Robb knew that he'd wronged the Freys and he took the initiative to try and set things right. "...I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires..." 

He's trying to use them for his supposedly bloody attack on Moat Cailin.

He's not feeling bad about breaking his deal, he's feeling bad because it lead to him losing any chance he had left.

6 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

3) He also tried to make amends with them for slighting them with full acknowledgement of what he'd done.

The harm was already done, and there was nothing he could give them to change any of that.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

1) Those 500-1000 weren't directly killed by Robb.

Their deaths are on his hands. He made an agreement, he sent 2,600 Freys to the Battle of Green Fork (a battle he knew he would lose) and hundreds, maybe even a thousand, died.

They did that for a price and Robb refused to pay. He is guilty for it.

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2) How is this not trying to make amends? Needing the Freys doesn't demean the fact that Robb knew that he'd wronged the Freys and he took the initiative to try and set things right. "...I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires..." 

Her is not making amends because he wronged them, it is because he desperately needs them

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3) He also tried to make amends with them for slighting them with full acknowledgement of what he'd done.

He needed them. He is quite clear on that. He does not see hope without their help. That is why he is apologizing.

"Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. "

 

I doubt there would be much in the way of an apology if he did not need them to win back the North

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There's nothing that can excuse the Freys.

lol So Robb can make a feeble apology and all is expected to be forgiven but nothing can excuse the Freys? Double standards I think.

 

 

[The Wolves]

10 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Their deaths are on his hands. He made an agreement, he sent 2,600 Freys to the Battle of Green Fork (a battle he knew he would lose) and hundreds, maybe even a thousand, died.

They did that for a price and Robb refused to pay. He is guilty for it.

Her is not making amends because he wronged them, it is because he desperately needs them

He needed them. He is quite clear on that. He does not see hope without their help. That is why he is apologizing.

"Not only have you broken your oath, but you've slighted the honor of the Twins by choosing a bride from a lesser house."

Robb bristled at that. "The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. "

 

I doubt there would be much in the way of an apology if he did not need them to win back the North

lol So Robb can make a feeble apology and all is expected to be forgiven but nothing can excuse the Freys? Double standards I think.

 

 

Why keep comparing Robb and Walder when you really can't compare them? 

Yes Robb broke an agreement but he did try to make amends for whatever reason. He did try to appease Walder and admitted his mistake. 

Say what you want about the 500-1000 Freys and their men dying but they did it on the battlefield in open battle having a fighting chance. And Walder has their blood on his hands as much as Robb he should have never let his family participate in the war he should have done what he did best and stay at the Twins sitting this one out. 

Why should the Freys be excused even after murdering thousands of unarmed men, they desecrate bodies, they lie about what happen making up a stupid, uncreative story and than go around smirking about it. They also continue to insult Robb in his own region to his men and still they're fucking clueless. Why should the Freys be excused? Everything they've done after the RW is so gross and just unnecessary. They got their revenge on Robb so why do what they do? 

[Ygrain]

Also, the Freys are the lieges to the Riverrun. Riverrun supports Robb, so Walder had no right to demand anything from Robb in the first place.

[dread wolf]

To answer the OP's question well yes i think the freys should suffer for what they've done.

Guilt by association is morally wrong yes but it is a blood feud now and it will go on until one side suffers the most or they reach a stalemate.(like the blackwood-bracken feud which explodes now and then). Whether robb's actions are justified or walder's actions are doesn't matter now. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Why keep comparing Robb and Walder when you really can't compare them? 

Because it is relevant to the conversation. Robb betrayed Walder and then Walder betrayed Robb.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Yes Robb broke an agreement but he did try to make amends for whatever reason. He did try to appease Walder and admitted his mistake. 

So if Walder offers to apologize to the North and offers to make amends everything will be all right?

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Say what you want about the 500-1000 Freys and their men dying but they did it on the battlefield in open battle having a fighting chance.

So did Robbs soldiers. No one forced them to get drunk and no one took their weapons from them.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

And Walder has their blood on his hands as much as Robb he should have never let his family participate in the war he should have done what he did best and stay at the Twins sitting this one out. 

He should have done.

1 minute ago, The Wolves said:

Why should the Freys be excused even after murdering thousands of unarmed men, they desecrate bodies, they lie about what happen making up a stupid, uncreative story and than go around smirking about it.

When have I ever said they should? Go back to the first page when I quite clearly said that the Freys are reaping what they sow (as did Robb). They can have no complaints about what Manderly or the Brotherhood are doing.

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also, the Freys are the lieges to the Riverrun. Riverrun supports Robb, so Walder had no right to demand anything from Robb in the first place.

Nope. Riverrun was not a vassal of Robb when the Frey-Stark alliance was made. Robb would never have even gained Riverrun if it was not for Frey support.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

39 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

War or not, there are always lines that shouldn't be crossed. Take JonCon - had he burnt Stoney Sept to the ground, he would have killed Robert, perhaps ended the Rebellion, and saved Rhaegar's life. He didn't, because it would have been butchery, an atrocity, far above the usual warfare.

Jon Connington didn't burn the Stoney Sept because he cared too much about what people thought of him. Unless I'm mistaken, he regrets the fact that he stayed his hand. Jon Connington was unwilling to sully his own personal "honour", and it cost the Royalists the war. 

War is a dirty business, but Jon Connington tried to play it clean. Foolish, is the word I would use.

[Sullen]

5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also, the Freys are the lieges to the Riverrun. Riverrun supports Robb, so Walder had no right to demand anything from Robb in the first place.

Robb and Edmure are rebels, Walder is entirely in his rights if he decides he wants to support the Crown instead.

[Ygrain]

7 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Jon Connington didn't burn the Stoney Sept because he cared too much about what people thought of him. Unless I'm mistaken, he regrets the fact that he stayed his hand. Jon Connington was unwilling to sully his own personal "honour", and it cost the Royalists the war. 

War is a dirty business, but Jon Connington tried to play it clean. Foolish, is the word I would use.

And why would people think bad about him? Because it would have been a bad thing to do, war or not. "War crime" would be today's term.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, Ygrain said:

And why would people think bad about him? Because it would have been a bad thing to do, war or not. "War crime" would be today's term.

It was more to do with him wanting to beat Robert himself.

He had lost it all at Stoney Sept, in his arrogance.

Robert Baratheon had been hiding somewhere in the town, wounded and alone. Jon Connington had known that, and he had also known that Robert's head upon a spear would have put an end to the rebellion, then and there. He was young and full of pride. How not? King Aerys had named him Hand and given him an army, and he meant to prove himself worthy of that trust, of Rhaegar's love. He would slay the rebel lord himself and carve a place out for himself in all the histories of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Not because it was a 'war crime'. Afterall no one considers Hoster a war criminal after what he did to Lord Goodbrook and the people of his village.

It’s not a village, it’s only black stones and old bones. “Did the Lannisters kill the people who lived here?” Arya asked as she helped Anguy dry the horses.

“No.” He pointed. “Look at how thick the moss grows on the stones. No one’s moved them for a long time. And there’s a tree growing out of the wall there, see? This place was put to the torch a long time ago.”

“Who did it, then?” asked Gendry.

“Hoster Tully.” Notch was a stooped thin grey-haired man, born in these parts. “This was Lord Goodbrook’s village. When Riverrun declared for Robert, Goodbrook stayed loyal to the king, so Lord Tully came down on him with fire and sword. After the Trident, Goodbrook’s son made his peace with Robert and Lord Hoster, but that didn’t help the dead none.”

 

 

[LordPathera]

1 hour ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

lol So Robb can make a feeble apology and all is expected to be forgiven but nothing can excuse the Freys? Double standards I think.

Nonsense.

Whatever your agenda and bias is, the Freys were in the wrong for the Red Wedding. It was wrong of them to lie to Robb and them murder him under guest right. (they'd been conspiring with Tywin and Bolton before replying to Robb per Tywin's own confession) It was wrong of them to drug up and murder Robb's men. (that's anywhere from 3 1/2 to 7 times more men than those who died serving Robb (500-1000 vs 3500) Robb did not deserve what happened to him nor did he bring it on himself (made better by the fact that he did attempt to reconcile his mistake regardless of how you insist on putting his actions in the worst possible light. Attempts at Reconciliation is still attempts at reconciliation)

No matter how you spin it, the Freys come off as being objectively worst for their actions and intentions. There's no double standards at play. That's the objective truth per the facts presented and shown in the Sword of Storms. Deal with it.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

Nonsense.

Whatever your agenda and bias is, the Freys were in the wrong for the Red Wedding.

Sure. As was Robb for stabbing the Freys in the back and betraying them.

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

It was wrong of them to lie to Robb and them murder him under guest right. (they'd been conspiring with Tywin and Bolton before replying to Robb per Tywin's own confession) It was wrong of them to drug up and murder Robb's men.

Drug up? No one forced them to drink. It is kind of hilarious the depths you need to sink to make it sound as bad as possible.

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

(that's anywhere from 3 1/2 to 7 times more men than those who died serving Robb (500-1000 vs 3500)

Sure. Not seeing your point here. No one in Westeros does eye for an eye, the punishment is almost always greater than the initial crime.

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

Robb did not deserve what happened to him nor did he bring it on himself

Yes he did. Robb fucked the Freys over. He deserved it. By all means make arguments for his men but Robb deserved what happened to him.

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

(made better by the fact that he did attempt to reconcile his mistake regardless of how you insist on putting his actions in the worst possible light. Attempts at Reconciliation is still attempts at reconciliation)

lol He was lost without the Freys, of course he had to try and reconcile with them. HE HAD NO CHOICE!

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

No matter how you spin it, the Freys come off as being objectively worst for their actions and intentions.

Who was claiming otherwise?

2 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

There's no double standards at play. That's the objective truth per the facts presented and shown in the Sword of Storms. Deal with it.

Deal with what? Robb did something wrong and paid for it. The Freys have done something wrong and paid for it from Manderly and the LSH and will probably continue to pay for it in later books

[watcher of the night]

2 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

lol So Robb can make a feeble apology and all is expected to be forgiven but nothing can excuse the Freys? Double standards I think.

 

 

Freys broke something that was sacred in the North: the guest right. How difficult is that to understand? Did you forget the story of the rat king?