Mance=Rhaegar

[King Edd of House Tollet]

I liked this, it is well-thought, has convincing arguments and was generally consistent

I do not think most of this theory is true, but there indeed lot of similarities between Rhaegar and Mance. Perhaps to have Jon interact so much with a character so similar to his biological father was another clue from GRRM about R+L=J.

Also, I must say it would be so fitting if Jaime and Cersei are sons of Aerys and only Tyrion is from Tywin. It's so fucking poetic perfect I wish it could be true, but I do believe all of them to be Tywin's

[Little Scribe of Naath]

On 9/2/2016 at 0:07 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My apologies for misspeaking (mistyping?) on the issue of Rhaegar being alive versus dead. Yes, I've read the whole OP. "Fireproof" is usually the phrase that comes up in discussions like this. You didn't use the exact word, but you essentially used the same idea that people have put forth repeatedly--though usually having to do with Jon Snow. It's an apt word, given that things that don't burn are considered fireproof.

Yes. Which is what I mean about Jon and discussions of Targaryens and fireproof-ness.  Any character's being reborn during attempted cremation is unlikely given the author's statement about how Dany's thing with the dragons was a miraculous one-off event. 

Actually Bloodraven would be the ancestor. And here are my main reasons for thinking so...ravens, scarlet, and sorcery. The association between ravens and Bloodraven is pretty easy: his byname for one thing, his archers for another, he skinchanges into ravens and very likely is talking through Mormont's raven. What's on Mance's helm? Raven wings. Blooraven's colors are "smoke" and "scarlet." Smoke, the color is not black but a dark gray, as mentioned in one of the Dunk and Egg tales (TMK I think). When Jon meets Mance he notes that the black of his cloak is faded, which would make it a dark gray...like smoke. In the same chapter (Jon's first chapter in ASOS) Mance refers to the scarlet silk that the Wildling woman used to patch his cloak. Not just red...scarlet. Jon doesn't make any distinction between the two colors, so why does Mance not just say it's red?  You yourself reference the repeated mentions of the cloak and the word smoke. Finally we have the scarlet silk's origin. It was on a ship from Asshai. Asshai being known for sorcery fits rather well with Bloodraven having been accused of being a sorcerer. 

There's more as well. Going back to Mance's helm we have that it's made of bronze and iron, both of which are heavily associated with the First Men. If Bloodraven had a child with a Wildling woman, and Mance descended from that child, he'd have a large percentage of First Men blood (he'd be a grandson at closest, with one parent full Wildling, and one parent half-Wildling/and 1/4 Targ).

He's also got the slim build Bloodraven had, is missing the standard Targ height like Bloodraven is, and has the fighting skill, the leadership ability, and the gift of strategy that BR displayed in the past.

Prior to his capture, we always see Mance wearing his cloak. Bloodraven was almost always wearing his cloak.

Both Mance and Bloodraven served in the Night's Watch.

BR said he sacrificed his honor for the sake of the realm. Mance could be said to have done the same, having deserted the Watch but still putting the realm first by trying to get the Wildlings through the Wall not just for their own safety but because he knows that makes about 100,000 fewer wights for the Others to throw at Westeros.

I really like this, Lady Blizzardborn. I hadn't really noticed the parallels between BR and Mance before. Not sure if he is BR's son (BR was pretty old when he joined the Watch, right?). But there could be a connection between them of some other sort, probably.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

With regards to the SSM about Rhaegar's body being cremated, as is traditional for all Targaryen's, and the author's appearance of not outright lying and simply avoiding a question he feels would be "telling", technically, this theory and his answer could both remain true. IF Rhaegar is Mance, however he came to be him, resurrection/glamour/faceless man shit/body double on the Trident/floated to the Quiet Isle, whatever, we know that Mance was thought to be sacrificed in the flames of Mel's nightfire, a cremation of sorts, only to have really been alive as a glamoured Rattleshirt. So, if Rhaegar is Mance, and Mance was cremated for all to see, then Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for Targ's, and the author didn't lie, didn't tell, just chose his words wisely.

[Wheels]

On 2016-09-01 at 9:07 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My apologies for misspeaking (mistyping?) on the issue of Rhaegar being alive versus dead. Yes, I've read the whole OP. "Fireproof" is usually the phrase that comes up in discussions like this. You didn't use the exact word, but you essentially used the same idea that people have put forth repeatedly--though usually having to do with Jon Snow. It's an apt word, given that things that don't burn are considered fireproof.

Yes. Which is what I mean about Jon and discussions of Targaryens and fireproof-ness.  Any character's being reborn during attempted cremation is unlikely given the author's statement about how Dany's thing with the dragons was a miraculous one-off event. 

Actually Bloodraven would be the ancestor. And here are my main reasons for thinking so...ravens, scarlet, and sorcery. The association between ravens and Bloodraven is pretty easy: his byname for one thing, his archers for another, he skinchanges into ravens and very likely is talking through Mormont's raven. What's on Mance's helm? Raven wings. Blooraven's colors are "smoke" and "scarlet." Smoke, the color is not black but a dark gray, as mentioned in one of the Dunk and Egg tales (TMK I think). When Jon meets Mance he notes that the black of his cloak is faded, which would make it a dark gray...like smoke. In the same chapter (Jon's first chapter in ASOS) Mance refers to the scarlet silk that the Wildling woman used to patch his cloak. Not just red...scarlet. Jon doesn't make any distinction between the two colors, so why does Mance not just say it's red?  You yourself reference the repeated mentions of the cloak and the word smoke. Finally we have the scarlet silk's origin. It was on a ship from Asshai. Asshai being known for sorcery fits rather well with Bloodraven having been accused of being a sorcerer. 

There's more as well. Going back to Mance's helm we have that it's made of bronze and iron, both of which are heavily associated with the First Men. If Bloodraven had a child with a Wildling woman, and Mance descended from that child, he'd have a large percentage of First Men blood (he'd be a grandson at closest, with one parent full Wildling, and one parent half-Wildling/and 1/4 Targ).

He's also got the slim build Bloodraven had, is missing the standard Targ height like Bloodraven is, and has the fighting skill, the leadership ability, and the gift of strategy that BR displayed in the past.

Prior to his capture, we always see Mance wearing his cloak. Bloodraven was almost always wearing his cloak.

Both Mance and Bloodraven served in the Night's Watch.

BR said he sacrificed his honor for the sake of the realm. Mance could be said to have done the same, having deserted the Watch but still putting the realm first by trying to get the Wildlings through the Wall not just for their own safety but because he knows that makes about 100,000 fewer wights for the Others to throw at Westeros.

I've explained my Resurrection theory previously in this thread but I don't expect you to have sifted through that so I will again: Rhaegar was resurrected from his funeral pyre because of the magic imbued in his blood from his birth in the flames at Summerhall. Not because of Dragons and not because of a red priest thus making it a unique event. Furthermore the idea that Rhaegar was born from the flames twice in his life only adds poetic justice to his story.

On the subject of Mance being BR ancestor, I agree with you that it's very likely and commend you on a great idea! It seems to me that the connection between Mance and the dragons has been clearly established at this point and the debate has shifted to: "Is Mance Rhaegar?" or "Is Mance BR's ancestor?". 

Admittedly, your theory fits very nicely in the scope of the northern story line however when you look at the grand arc of the story it begins to feel less relevant. Let me explain my thinking:

It's entirely possible that Rhaegar could have become BR pupil at some point since he reached the wall, since his death on the trident or even as early as his childhood. This could explain his motivations for going north just like Bran does after he is visited by BR.

Ravens. Many characters in the story are associated with Ravens. Jon is followed around by Mormont's raven, Bran has visions of Ravens, Cold hands has a flock in tow. Each of these can be traced back to BR. Raven winged helms however are common-place in fantasy literature and our own world's history. Bronze and iron are associated with the first men its true but hey, we're north of the wall where many things are made of such. It could mean something or nothing. Again, Rhaegar being BR pupil could explain the raven wings.

Smoke and Scarlet: You're right, scarlet is associated with BR. However, the words scarlet and red are both used to describe Mance's cloak at different times, not one or the other exclusively. In that first meeting between Jon and Mance the "smoky red gloom" could just be a metaphor for BR presence watching over the two. In any case, if Rhaegar is BR pupil it would makse sense that he adopt his colors... So what he is always wearing a cloak? so is every other person in the North.

Sorcery. Rhaegar and BR are both known to be heavily devoted to scholarly pursuits. We are basically told outright that BR is a sorcerer so no mystery there. To speculate that Rhaegar was heavily invested in sorcery and the study of the higher mysteries as well is not a long stretch considering the history of other Targaryens and Valyrians doing so. Again, George wrote Rhaegar as a mysterious enigmatic character for a reason IMHO.

The slim build, fighting skill, leadership ability can aslo all be attributed to Rhaegar and you can also say that he sacrificed his honor for the realm when he ran off with Lyanna if birthing a savior really was his intention.

There are some other things that don't add up for me as well like would BR really have taken a wildling wife? it would seem like a downgrade after Shiara Seastar. Also he was 77 when he went missing beyond the wall. Too old for healthy children. How come BR waited such a long time to send his great great grandson to help save the free folk if he knew about the threat? Why does Mance show such an interest in all the music of the south? Why does he admit to Mel that he's "drunk summer wine" and "tasted the Dornishman's wife"? How does Mance being a 1/4 blood Targaryen bastard serve the story? Surely that rules him out as a dragon rider.

Again, is your theory a good one and is it possible? Yes.

Personally, I think it shuts the door on a lot of other awesome directions the plot could take if Rhaegar were revealed to be alive.

[Wheels]

13 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Questions: So I just read through twice. Can't say how much I love this theory. 

I have long assumed that Arthur Dayne was not dead and that HR's way of saving the day was making Ned and Arthur come to a sensible agreement. I will admit, until reading your post I assumed that he was in blackhaven living a life of repose with Allyria Dayne and that when Edric (who left the brotherhood after LS took over management) brought Lord Beric's bones back to his ancestral home would meet his uncle, get some yoda dagoba training, be dubbed a knight (because who knights you matters), be named new sword of the morning (because Edric pulled Beric's body out of the water and stood over it while the mountain's men attacked when he was freaking 11 so, ya know, he is awesome) and then we would get the Jon reveal through Arthur telling Edric  and not though tree bran like people think and then Edric would go find Jon at the wall and recreate the Rhaegar Arthur relationship.

 

However, I am really liking your ideas here so here is the question (and sorry for being so rambling). Assuming you are right rather than my original idea......does Edric meet arthur?

 

Another question which will be more succinct: If the halfhand is Ser Arthur a) Was he wielding Dawn? b ) if so shouldn't someone have noticed how special this NW ranger's sword was c) if not, where is Dawn

Haha thank you and no worries I am the king of rambling! I'm sorry the OP is long and should probably have been broken into separate posts. to answer your questions: I always thought Edric was too young to even eventually wield a big sword like Dawn in the timeline of the story but who knows? He is a Dayne. It would be cool if he made more appearances. I think it would be very unlikely that Arthur and Edric would have met considering Arthur either died at the Tower of Joy or was killled by Jon in the Frostfangs depending on what you want to believe. But again, who knows? Maybe he never joined the watch and is laying low somewhere? Qhorin was mos-def not wielding Dawn, it would have stuck out like a sore thumb beyond the wall. The most obvious answer is that Dawn is at Starfall where Ned left it. I would be beyond disappointed if we don't see Dawn again.

[Wheels]

50 minutes ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

With regards to the SSM about Rhaegar's body being cremated, as is traditional for all Targaryen's, and the author's appearance of not outright lying and simply avoiding a question he feels would be "telling", technically, this theory and his answer could both remain true. IF Rhaegar is Mance, however he came to be him, resurrection/glamour/faceless man shit/body double on the Trident/floated to the Quiet Isle, whatever, we know that Mance was thought to be sacrificed in the flames of Mel's nightfire, a cremation of sorts, only to have really been alive as a glamoured Rattleshirt. So, if Rhaegar is Mance, and Mance was cremated for all to see, then Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for Targ's, and the author didn't lie, didn't tell, just chose his words wisely.

Dude exactly. There are too many ways the authors words can be interpreted for them to be used to justify something in the text.

[YOVMO]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

As the author himself said, Dany's miraculous event with the dragon eggs was a one time thing. That usually indicates that it has not happened before and will not happen again. 

I understand that Wheels doesn't take the author's statements as canon. I happen to disagree on that point.

I haven't read anything from @wheels about whether or not to take the author's statements as cannon, but I will assume you are correct. I will say that I fall somewhere between the two of you. I think that GRRM should be taken as cannon but I also believe that he is incredibly cagey and that his comments, in hindsight, might mean something very different than they seemed at the time.

 

That said, yes, I was being a little bit -- shall we say cheeky in my statement. However, in a story where we have had multiple rebirths both figurative (Gravedigger) literal (beric like a bunch of times as well as, most likely, Jon) and supernatural (i.e. wights) and whatever the hell the others are and whatever the hell cold hands is and in a story where fire often plays a part in rebirth and given Rhaegar's special status in the universe I will say that even if you disagree with Wheel's theory it would be foolish to say that it isn't possible. For GRRM to write Rhaegar back to life and make him Mance and make it not contradict any of his statements it would take all of two pages....if that was his goal. Of course, we can't know until it is written, but to brush this off just by saying that GRRM said Rhaegar was burned would be much akin to saying that there is no future arc for Jon because he was stabbed to death or that after the Mountain Killed Beric nothing much came of him or that Cat really didn't do much after the red wedding.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

GRRM has been very careful about what he says in that he has never lied to the fans.

Again, I agree with you and think GRRM tells the truth. I think he also tells the truth, both in his statements and in his prose, in such a way that it is meant to deceive while still being true.

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If there's something he can't answer without giving something away he will usually say "Keep reading" or "That's a very good question" and little or nothing else. Nothing he has said has contradicted canon, and all of his statements regarding information in the books either has or will come into the books.

Example: when asked who named certain characters he replied that most likely Tyrion was named by his father,

 

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Daenerys by her mother and Jon "by Ned."  Notice he deliberately did not say that Jon was named by his father, but instead said Ned. Because Ned is not Jon's father.

Again, I agree,

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 That's how GRRM is about these things. Is it canon that Jon is not Ned's son? No, but it will be. GRRM said the truth about Jon's parentage will be revealed in the books--not just Jon's mother, but his parentage--ipso facto the books have not told us who Jon's father is either.

I take GRRM at his word. Snark not used. Aoplogies for the Latin, which I don't normally use.

Don't worry, I like the latin. Snarks, Starks and Sparks are all appreciated in a good convo. So while I can agree with you that GRRM's statements can be taken as fact I will remind you that it would not take much for him to write a couple of paragraphs explaining rhaegar's return to life while not contradicting himself. Hell, I could write it. It wouldn't be good reading like GRRM but I am sure I can figure out a way to make it so that rhaegar was creamated, dany's return from the fire was a once in the universe thing and both still held true. If I can think of 3 possible scenarios GRRM can, I am sure, do it with....as Jamie said of arthur dayne fighting the new KG, do it with one hand while using the other to take a piss.

[Aegon VII]

 

To begin I'll say excellent post, thank you for putting the time and effort into it. Anyone who says this isn't a valid theory doesn't understand how theories work. I am a big supporter of Mance being Rhaegar myself, so I was happy to finally see this thread a few days ago. I started a thread "Mance is Rhaegar, MR=RT" last year that I hope you'll check out.

I'll only be referring to the Mance=Rhaegar theory, as I don't think Jon and Dany are twins. Mostly because I think we would have seen some hints of Dany's Ice heritage in the writing and so far I haven't noticed any, she seems all fire.

I think Rhaegar had determined that he would leave and join the NW before the Trident. Since the day he stopped reading and picked up a sword he's been motivated by prophecy. At the Tourney of Harrenhal he likely cheats (I think using a glamour) in order to fulfill that prophecy. Evidence of this cheating is that Rhaegar seemed like he couldn't be hit and also Loras cheating at the Hand's Tourney. What's to make us think Rhaegar failed in his prophecy relating plotting and died at the trident vs faked his death? He could have also used a glamour on a friend who then fought in his armor at the trident. This would make Renly's Armor being worn at Blackwater make a lot more sense, introducing us to the idea.

If Rhaegar knew that the others were coming it actually makes a decent amount of sense for him to fake his death. He doesn't need to worry about Lyanna because Robert and Ned love her and wouldn't hurt her. If he fights in the war, no matter who wins more people die overall. Even if he does win, he's not the king. If he does become the king, he then has to convince the realm that just got done fighting itself to go north and rescue wildlings and fight White Walkers. Then when he tries to rescue the wildlings, they would be scattered all over the north, and none would respect him. If Rhaegar knew the others were coming, it makes a lot of sense that he would abandon his birth right, go north, and try to bring together the wildings to bring south before the long winter, rather than waste that time trying to unite the seven kingdoms.

Also, Mance being Rhaegar makes Aemon Steelsong a pretty awesome story. Jon saving his younger brother by doing to him exactly what Ned did for Jon. And something I just noticed last night, when Jaime sleeps on the stump, he dreams of Rhaegar in changing colors of cold fire, which can be interpreted as his multiple glamours as mance, rattleshirt, and Abel.

5 hours ago, Wheels said:

On the subject of Mance being BR ancestor, I agree with you that it's very likely and commend you on a great idea!

Admittedly, your theory fits very nicely in the scope of the northern story line however when you look at the grand arc of the story it begins to feel less relevant.

I wholeheartedly agree. GRRM isn't going to have this huge Mance secret identity just to reveal it's BR's or Qorgyle's bastard. We simply haven't been given enough story about either of them and how they would have a bastard. Plus their too minor of characters.

 

5 hours ago, Wheels said:

Smoke and Scarlet: You're right, scarlet is associated with BR. However, the words scarlet and red are both used to describe Mance's cloak at different times, not one or the other exclusively. In that first meeting between Jon and Mance the "smoky red gloom" could just be a metaphor for BR presence watching over the two. In any case, if Rhaegar is BR pupil it would makse sense that he adopt his colors... So what he is always wearing a cloak? so is every other person in the North.

BR and Rhaegar are both known to wear Scarlet. Rhaegar wore a scarlet plume of silk on his helmet. Which is the color Mance's cloak is stitched with. It makes a lot of sense if Rhaegar glamoured himself when he assumes Mance's identity, and used the cloak to reinforce the glamour, much like rattleshirt's bones. It also makes sense that he would have hung on to his scarlet silk plume and happened to have it after getting wounded on a ranging. When he got back and had to give up his cloak, he had no choice but to desert or else people would have seen his appearance change.

5 hours ago, Wheels said:

The slim build, fighting skill, leadership ability can aslo all be attributed to Rhaegar and you can also say that he sacrificed his honor for the realm when he ran off with Lyanna if birthing a savior really was his intention.

Even more so if he faked his death!

 

[Ygrain]

Could someone describe me the mechanics of rebirth from ashes? Because that's what "cremated" means - burnt to ashes. Because this is what GRRM said. Not "placed on the funeral pyre", not "the Targaryen tradition is to cremate their dead". No. "Rhaegar was cremated", so if he is alive now, he made a feat which makes Dany's Unburnt act look pretty amateurish.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Could someone describe me the mechanics of rebirth from ashes? Because that's what "cremated" means - burnt to ashes. Because this is what GRRM said. Not "placed on the funeral pyre", not "the Targaryen tradition is to cremate their dead". No. "Rhaegar was cremated", so if he is alive now, he made a feat which makes Dany's Unburnt act look pretty amateurish.

 

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

"Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."-SSM

There's the author's exact answer and wording. That's all he's ever said on that subject, and there's nothing about it in any of the books. Take from it what you will.

Don't you do podcasts or something? If so, shouldn't you've already known this? 

[Aegon VII]

I find it amazing how many people can't get over GRRM's statement that Rhaegar was cremated. It's frustrating how many good MR=RT threads get doomed from multiple people chanting, "Rhaegar was cremated".

 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Could someone describe me the mechanics of rebirth from ashes? Because that's what "cremated" means - burnt to ashes. Because this is what GRRM said. Not "placed on the funeral pyre", not "the Targaryen tradition is to cremate their dead". No. "Rhaegar was cremated", so if he is alive now, he made a feat which makes Dany's Unburnt act look pretty amateurish.

You are choosing the strictest definition of cremate because it suits your beliefs. You're absolutely right that cremate means "to burn to ashes". But it also can mean "to burn a dead body", "to burn something, (typically food)", "to consume by fire; burn". All of those things would be accurate of Rhaegar Targaryen in the OP's theory.

Personally, II don't believe Rhaegar was burned after the Trident yet I still don't think GRRM lied. Language is so flexible that are multiple interpretations of "Rhaegar was cremated" that can be true, even if Rhaegar is still alive. Remember, if GRRM is trying to hide the biggest theory in the books, he might have to do it in the trickiest way.

So, what could "Rhaegar was cremated" mean?

Rheagar Frey was or will be cremated.

Rhaegar will be burned some time in the future. There is nothing that mandates an author speak in future tense if he hasn't written about something. If Rhaegar is cremated in the seventh book, GRRM wasn't lieing. He could have already written the scene.

Rhaegar becomes Mance, Mance is then cremated. Transitive property. One form of Rhaegar has now been cremated. Kind of like Robert saying he only got to kill Rhaegar once.

If Rhaegar was in the fire in Summerhall that could have been the burning/cremation.

 

I'm not saying any particular one of these is extremely likely, but we have multiple scenarios that allow GRRM's statement and MR=RT to coexist peacefully. We simply cannot rule the theories out based on the statement.

 

[cgrav]

Statements by the author are not literature and should probably be taken closer to face value than what's in the books. GRRM isn't speaking from a limited POV, and POV limitations are the only reason that seemingly definitive statements/thoughts by characters can turn out to be wrong.

[Ygrain]

33 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

I find it amazing how many people can't get over GRRM's statement that Rhaegar was cremated. It's frustrating how many good MR=RT threads get doomed from multiple people chanting, "Rhaegar was cremated".

 

You are choosing the strictest definition of cremate because it suits your beliefs. You're absolutely right that cremate means "to burn to ashes". But it also can mean "to burn a dead body", "to burn something, (typically food)", "to consume by fire; burn". All of those things would be accurate of Rhaegar Targaryen in the OP's theory.

Personally, II don't believe Rhaegar was burned after the Trident yet I still don't think GRRM lied. Language is so flexible that are multiple interpretations of "Rhaegar was cremated" that can be true, even if Rhaegar is still alive. Remember, if GRRM is trying to hide the biggest theory in the books, he might have to do it in the trickiest way.

So, what could "Rhaegar was cremated" mean?

Rheagar Frey was or will be cremated.

Rhaegar will be burned some time in the future. There is nothing that mandates an author speak in future tense if he hasn't written about something. If Rhaegar is cremated in the seventh book, GRRM wasn't lieing. He could have already written the scene.

Rhaegar becomes Mance, Mance is then cremated. Transitive property. One form of Rhaegar has now been cremated. Kind of like Robert saying he only got to kill Rhaegar once.

If Rhaegar was in the fire in Summerhall that could have been the burning/cremation.

 

I'm not saying any particular one of these is extremely likely, but we have multiple scenarios that allow GRRM's statement and MR=RT to coexist peacefully. We simply cannot rule the theories out based on the statement.

 

The whole context of his reply was:

"What happened with Rhaegar's body after the battle?" (paraphrasing)

"Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

If you prefer resurrection from charred bones instead of ashes, I am willing to concede. I am even willing to go for charred flesh if the burning was so imperfect. But the context of the statement clearly determines that the cremation took place after the Trident, not in the future, so if you insist on Rhaegar overcoming the said charred condition, you should tell us how he managed to do that.

 

[Wheels]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The whole context of his reply was:

"What happened with Rhaegar's body after the battle?" (paraphrasing)

"Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

If you prefer resurrection from charred bones instead of ashes, I am willing to concede. I am even willing to go for charred flesh if the burning was so imperfect. But the context of the statement clearly determines that the cremation took place after the Trident, not in the future, so if you insist on Rhaegar overcoming the said charred condition, you should tell us how he managed to do that.

 

Rhaegar was resurrected from his funeral pyre because of the magic imbued in his blood from his birth in the flames at Summerhall. Not because of Dragons and not because of a red priest thus making it a unique event.

The idea is that he is the chosen one. When his blood makes contact with the flames it triggers a magical event. in the end I don't care if you concede or not we're all going to believe what we want anyways.

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, Wheels said:

Rhaegar was resurrected from his funeral pyre because of the magic imbued in his blood from his birth in the flames at Summerhall. Not because of Dragons and not because of a red priest thus making it a unique event.

The idea is that he is the chosen one. When his blood makes contact with the flames it triggers a magical event. in the end I don't care if you concede or not we're all going to believe what we want anyways.

But if his corpse wasn't burnt in the flames, then you cannot say that he was cremated. And if he was burnt, then how did he become resurrected?

BTW, did nobody notice that his body didn't burn?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

19 hours ago, Wheels said:

I've explained my Resurrection theory previously in this thread but I don't expect you to have sifted through that so I will again: Rhaegar was resurrected from his funeral pyre because of the magic imbued in his blood from his birth in the flames at Summerhall. Not because of Dragons and not because of a red priest thus making it a unique event. Furthermore the idea that Rhaegar was born from the flames twice in his life only adds poetic justice to his story.

On the subject of Mance being BR ancestor, I agree with you that it's very likely and commend you on a great idea! It seems to me that the connection between Mance and the dragons has been clearly established at this point and the debate has shifted to: "Is Mance Rhaegar?" or "Is Mance BR's ancestor?". 

Admittedly, your theory fits very nicely in the scope of the northern story line however when you look at the grand arc of the story it begins to feel less relevant. Let me explain my thinking:

It's entirely possible that Rhaegar could have become BR pupil at some point since he reached the wall, since his death on the trident or even as early as his childhood. This could explain his motivations for going north just like Bran does after he is visited by BR.

Ravens. Many characters in the story are associated with Ravens. Jon is followed around by Mormont's raven, Bran has visions of Ravens, Cold hands has a flock in tow. Each of these can be traced back to BR. Raven winged helms however are common-place in fantasy literature and our own world's history. Bronze and iron are associated with the first men its true but hey, we're north of the wall where many things are made of such. It could mean something or nothing. Again, Rhaegar being BR pupil could explain the raven wings.

Smoke and Scarlet: You're right, scarlet is associated with BR. However, the words scarlet and red are both used to describe Mance's cloak at different times, not one or the other exclusively. In that first meeting between Jon and Mance the "smoky red gloom" could just be a metaphor for BR presence watching over the two. In any case, if Rhaegar is BR pupil it would makse sense that he adopt his colors... So what he is always wearing a cloak? so is every other person in the North.

Sorcery. Rhaegar and BR are both known to be heavily devoted to scholarly pursuits. We are basically told outright that BR is a sorcerer so no mystery there. To speculate that Rhaegar was heavily invested in sorcery and the study of the higher mysteries as well is not a long stretch considering the history of other Targaryens and Valyrians doing so. Again, George wrote Rhaegar as a mysterious enigmatic character for a reason IMHO.

The slim build, fighting skill, leadership ability can aslo all be attributed to Rhaegar and you can also say that he sacrificed his honor for the realm when he ran off with Lyanna if birthing a savior really was his intention.

There are some other things that don't add up for me as well like would BR really have taken a wildling wife? it would seem like a downgrade after Shiara Seastar. Also he was 77 when he went missing beyond the wall. Too old for healthy children. How come BR waited such a long time to send his great great grandson to help save the free folk if he knew about the threat? Why does Mance show such an interest in all the music of the south? Why does he admit to Mel that he's "drunk summer wine" and "tasted the Dornishman's wife"? How does Mance being a 1/4 blood Targaryen bastard serve the story? Surely that rules him out as a dragon rider.

Again, is your theory a good one and is it possible? Yes.

Personally, I think it shuts the door on a lot of other awesome directions the plot could take if Rhaegar were revealed to be alive.

Thank you for this great response!

I understand your theory includes a high level of magic being a part of Rhaegar's makeup. I just don't agree with it, because while it's possible it assumes a lot of things that (at this point) are mere supposition. Could go that way, but the books don't really contain anything that clearly points to it. Rhaegar wasn't actually born in the flames that we know of. Nearby the flames sure. But if there was so much magic involved in the event, how come the dragon eggs didn't hatch, as Dany's did?

One of the things that has been mentioned in the series is the return of magic which had been missing for a long time, some characters assume the magic has been missing/dormant since the deaths of the dragons. Rhaegar was born well into the no-to-low magic period, which could mean that it's not possible for him to be imbued with magic at his birth, even with all the things going on during the event. The keys to Dany's eggs hatching seem to be 1) magic is back, 2) sacrifice. The lack of magic prior to the start of AGoT is considered part of the reason why the Targs in the last 100-150 years have not been able to hatch any eggs. Granted, this could be something the characters and/or readers have assumed that turns out not to be true.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But the word red is used when other characters are describing the cloak. Scarlet is only used when Mance himself is talking about it, which indicates that Mance thinks "red" is not a good enough descriptor. If Mance is descended from BR, he may well be the only Wildling who knows it.

Agreed. But the height can't.  Targaryen men are tall. Bloodraven, who is not quite 6 feet tall is listed in the wiki as being shorter than other Targaryen men. Rhaegar himself is described as tall. Mance is not tall. Middling corresponds to average. While it might not be pertinent to the story, the average medieval height for a man was about 5' 7".  That would put the Targ men well above average height. Only throwing that in because Martin is famous for his exhaustive research and corresponding realism. It may have no bearing on this whatsoever.

Well he wouldn't have married the woman. So no, he wouldn't have taken a Wildling wife. Sheira repeatedly rejected his offers of marriage, and enjoyed making him jealous. Any woman who treated him decently and was attractive might have been considered a nice change of pace. Factor in his having likely been without a woman for a very long time and it doesn't seem as far-fetched. I don't think he would have been fathering children after being made LC. Bloodraven took his responsibilities seriously. So if Mance is a descendant, his own father/grandfather would have been conceived while BR was still an underling of the Watch, and likely early on in his term at the Wall. Also, you're wrong about his age prohibiting healthy offspring. There are greater risks for children of older parents, but there are still healthy children born to men in their 70s and even 80s. Increased risk is not the same as a guarantee of ill health.

Two reasons. 1) you can't send someone too far in advance, or the task will be impossible. By the time we join the story we know the Others are back and creating wights to send against men, but at the point when Mance left the watch it's likely that the only man who knew the Others were coming within a decade or two was Bloodraven. Consequently, the Wildlings themselves may not have been aware of the threat. How do you unite people who don't know there's a need for unity? It took Mance a long time to become King-Beyond-the-Wall, and he started well before we see the Others in the prologue of AGoT. 2) Mance is a strong-willed character. That may just be who he is or it may be a Targ trait. Either way, he's not going to be likely to take on a mission like that without good cause. Very likely he didn't know he had a mission until having met Bloodraven himself, unless he knew of his heritage...which would still probably include finding BR and talking to him.  

Mance shows an interest in music period. That's actually potentially a Targ trait going all the way back to Aenys I (son of Aegon I and Rhaenys, who was also fond of the arts). The Watch gets wine. Summer wine included. Most wine being summer wine, as you'll get the best grapes when the weather is consistently good for several years. There would be okay wine grown during the Westerosi springs and falls, but obviously none during the winter. Summer wine is going to have the better vintages, and be more plentiful. Spring and fall don't seem to last as long as summer and winter do. Tasting the Dornishman's wife could refer to a Dornish whore in Moletown, or a girl he slept with on a recruiting mission when he was still a member of the Watch. Elia was NOT a Dornishman's wife, so it can't refer to her. I'm kind of hoping we learn that Mance was one of the singing Black Brothers at Harrenhal, and thus part of the reason Benjen Stark joined the Watch.

Being 1/4 Targ doesn't remotely rule Mance out as a dragonrider. Brown Ben Plumm doesn't have nearly that much Targ blood and he's been potentially foreshadowed as a dragonrider. Targ bastards were important in the last Dance of the Dragons. They could be again. There's also the issue of being related to Jon, Daenerys, and any other Targs/Blackfyres/dragonseeds. Targaryens have things like prophetic dreams, and when they aren't crazy they tend to rise to greatness. With everything facing Westeros (and indeed all of Planetos) they're going to need every drop of important blood possible. Also remember that if the story of Bael the Bard is true, it's possible that Mance is also related to the Starks, so you've got another small bit of Ice+Fire. (crackpot: Bael and his lady had twins, and Bael took one North of the Wall with him, maybe not likely but it would be a fun twist).

Oh, not necessarily. If Rhaegar is still alive he could be posing as someone else. What if the Rhaegar who died at the Trident wasn't Rhaegar, but a glamoured Arthur Dayne? Tie in the theory that Arthur Dayne is still alive, and you've potentially got Rhaegar still in the mix. He can't show himself as Rhaegar, or as Arthur, but he could be hiding in plain sight, as it were. Dying his hair a la Tyrosh, pretending to be Aurane Waters, temporarily posing as a Septon or Monk--it would be hilarious (to me anyway) if Elder Brother turned out to be Rhaegar in disguise. Mance not being Rhaegar would kill some possibilities but give life to others. And perhaps the best part would be that if Rhaegar is alive, he and Jaime have to come face to face. Wouldn't miss that scene for the world!

Question: assuming Rhaegar is alive, per your theory, how do you deal with the vision Dany had of him saying that his son Aegon is TDtwP, rather than he himself being TDtwP? False vision? A moment of doubt that was later rectified? And did he take any time to mourn the women and child(ren) he lost before heading to the Wall?

Since this is kind of long, I'm going to send you a PM about a theory that I think you'll find fascinating, and perhaps helpful in looking at all potential Targs, of whatever stripe. There's a thread on it somewhere, but I think it's been archived. 

I'm enjoying this discussion.

[Aegon VII]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But the context of the statement clearly determines that the cremation took place after the Trident, not in the future, so if you insist on Rhaegar overcoming the said charred condition, you should tell us how he managed to do that.

So the future happens before the trident? Anything that didn't happen before the trident by definition happened after the trident, that includes the future. If Rhaegar is cremated in TWoW, that's after the trident. If Rhaegar Frey was cremated, it would have taken place after the trident as well. Etc.

And I don't believe Rhaegar overcame any sort of charred condition to become Mance. It seems you still interpret the ssm to mean "Rhaegar Targaryen's corpse was burned to ashes (or charred flesh per your generous concession) immediately following his death at the trident and was not resurrected." I argue that your interpretation is making many assumptions we as the reader are not qualified to make. To reject theories based on these assumptions is ignorant and overconfident.

[Nocturne]

Good effort by the op, but the theory is the equivalent of me saying that martians are real, because olives have green colour, therefor a martian invasion is imminent. Its simply makes no sense from a story telling perspective and here's why:

- we have the game of thrones that is played between the different characters in the story, that portrays different shades of gray in most of them ( the main point of the books)

- we have the side point, with humanity banding together to fight the common evil. We have a hero for this story and his name is Jon Snow, we don't need another one. We already have somebody that tried to fight them beyond the wall ( the 3 eyed raven )

- There's no point in resurrecting R to become M. It would be just shitty story telling, and would cheapen what Mance has achieved. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

7 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

So the future happens before the trident? Anything that didn't happen before the trident by definition happened after the trident, that includes the future. If Rhaegar is cremated in TWoW, that's after the trident. If Rhaegar Frey was cremated, it would have taken place after the trident as well. Etc.

Fun fact, apparently oft unnoticed: George R. R. Martin, when talking to fans, was not, actually, an accused in a criminal trial, testifying under oath, nor was he Baron Harkonnen, facing the Emperor's truthsayer inquiring about the fate of Duke Paul Atreides. He had no need to formulate his answers to the tune of "I did not inhale" ("...'cause I preferred pot brownies, but you didn't ask me about that"), he could just have chosen not to answer, as he often does. So I'm simply discarding all those extremely creative interpretations of very simple and straightforward sentences.

Hence, for me, "Rhaegar was cremated after the Battle of the Trident, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens" mean just that, Rhaegar was cremated after the Battle of the Trident, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens (which means, for example, a little bit  sooner than twenty years after the demise) and not "he secretly led a second life as Mance Rayder, who will be burned alive in the book that I haven't written yet". This mental acrobatics is just a waste of time. Mine, certainly.

[Aegon VII]

On 9/5/2016 at 5:01 AM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Hence, for me, "Rhaegar was cremated after the Battle of the Trident, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens" mean just that, Rhaegar was cremated after the Battle of the Trident, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens (which means, for example, a little bit  sooner than twenty years after the demise) and not "he secretly led a second life as Mance Rayder, who will be burned alive in the book that I haven't written yet". This mental acrobatics is just a waste of time. Mine, certainly.

And obviously your interpretation is what everyone is led to believe he meant, including myself. But that misses the point. The point is that if Mance does end up being Rhaegar, it can be done without making a liar out of GRRM. His statement is not enough to kill the theory, especially given how much evidence links Mance and Rhaegar. So people continually bringing it up in MR=RT threads only serves to distract from the thread. I do not see it as a valid argument against MR=RT.

You say not allowing any ambiguity in GRRM's statement is a waste of time, but I find the far bigger waste of time is people using GRRM's statement to try and kill Mance=Rhaegar theories. Anyone who puts enough time and energy into posting a theory on Mance being Rhaegar is well aware of GRRM's statement. Evidence of this can usually be found in the op disclaiming that they are aware of the statement, as was done here. Yet both the op and myself can reconcile his statement with our theories. A discussion of a theory should focus primarily on textual evidence, not be laid to rest because of a strict interpretation of a single comment made outside the books.

Also, GRRM has mentioned he is contemplating doing a twist in the books that the show couldn't do because the character was killed off in the show but not the books. So, another possibility is that when GRRM answered the question he was still unsure if he would end up making Mance be Rhaegar, and it was only recently that he decided to merge their identities.