Stannis's role in the death of King Robert Baratheon

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

A letter from Ned sent through Pycelle obvious Lannister stooge. Great idea.

Come on, do you really think Pycelle would not deliver a letter addresses to His Grace the King coming from the king's own brother? That would put him into a very precarious position...

But as others have already mentioned he could have sent a letter via ship and messenger as Ned himself intended to do when he wanted to inform Stannis about the incest and his decision to offer the crown to him.

Later on Stannis can also sent Davos secretly to the Stormlords and to White Harbor. Surely Davos would also have been able to deliver a letter/message to King Robert. In fact, we even know that Robert seemed to respect/like Davos for his role in the saving of Storm's End. Davos remembers that Robert once sent him food from his own plate - a pretty great honor for a man like Davos.

And then he could also have left Robert a note to be read upon his return or command one of his servants to remain behind in KL and deliver the note. Finally he could actually have accompanied Robert to Winterfell to talk to Ned Stark there, tell him the truth, and try to convince him to not accept Robert's offer. That could have made a major difference, don't you think. The incest could have been revealed and dealt with at Winterfell.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Come on, do you really think Pycelle would not deliver a letter addresses to His Grace the King coming from the king's own brother? That would put him into a very precarious position...

But as others have already mentioned he could have sent a letter via ship and messenger as Ned himself intended to do when he wanted to inform Stannis about the incest and his decision to offer the crown to him.

Later on Stannis can also sent Davos secretly to the Stormlords and to White Harbor. Surely Davos would also have been able to deliver a letter/message to King Robert. In fact, we even know that Robert seemed to respect/like Davos for his role in the saving of Storm's End. Davos remembers that Robert once sent him food from his own plate - a pretty great honor for a man like Davos.

And then he could also have left Robert a note to be read upon his return or command one of his servants to remain behind in KL and deliver the note. Finally he could actually have accompanied Robert to Winterfell to talk to Ned Stark there, tell him the truth, and try to convince him to not accept Robert's offer. That could have made a major difference, don't you think. The incest could have been revealed and dealt with at Winterfell.

If Pycelle can help kill Jon Arryn then yes, he would definitely not give Robert a letter.

Stannis wasn't invited north. He was left to help rule KL in his name.

As for the rest there's not a good explanation for it that I can think of right now.

[WSmith84]

Stannis could have reached out to Renly. The news coming from Renly wouldn't appear nearly so self-serving, and if Renly has Margaery on standby to offer Robert as his new bride, well then, Renly looks like a good brother just reporting a terrible treason and potentially saving his brother's life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

If Pycelle can help kill Jon Arryn then yes, he would definitely not give Robert a letter.

lol It is a good thing Stannis did not even send one just in case.

The idea that Stannis was not only convinced that the Lannisters were against the King but the Grand Maester as well and he still did nothing does not speak to highly of Stannis.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Stannis wasn't invited north. He was left to help rule KL in his name.

We don't know that.

 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

If Pycelle can help kill Jon Arryn then yes, he would definitely not give Robert a letter.

Stannis wasn't invited north. He was left to help rule KL in his name.

As for the rest there's not a good explanation for it that I can think of right now.

But Stannis never accused Pycelle of being involved in the murder of Jon Arryn, no? So he wouldn't necessarily mistrust him, meaning that Stannis deliberately decided to not send such a letter because he didn't want to, right?

But I really don't think Pycelle would have dared to hide/destroy a letter addressed to Robert coming from Stannis. Stannis could have come in person to tell Robert what he wanted to tell him or inquire via a messenger why Robert hasn't replied.

Nobody was invited North. Robert just went there. And if Tyrion can accompany Robert, then Stannis (or Renly) could have gone with them, too.

[Valens]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Come on, do you really think Pycelle would not deliver a letter addresses to His Grace the King coming from the king's own brother? That would put him into a very precarious position...

But as others have already mentioned he could have sent a letter via ship and messenger as Ned himself intended to do when he wanted to inform Stannis about the incest and his decision to offer the crown to him.

Later on Stannis can also sent Davos secretly to the Stormlords and to White Harbor. Surely Davos would also have been able to deliver a letter/message to King Robert. In fact, we even know that Robert seemed to respect/like Davos for his role in the saving of Storm's End. Davos remembers that Robert once sent him food from his own plate - a pretty great honor for a man like Davos.

And then he could also have left Robert a note to be read upon his return or command one of his servants to remain behind in KL and deliver the note. Finally he could actually have accompanied Robert to Winterfell to talk to Ned Stark there, tell him the truth, and try to convince him to not accept Robert's offer. That could have made a major difference, don't you think. The incest could have been revealed and dealt with at Winterfell.

You say "come on" a lot. Not very Varys-like, lol.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Stannis could have reached out to Renly. The news coming from Renly wouldn't appear nearly so self-serving, and if Renly has Margaery on standby to offer Robert as his new bride, well then, Renly looks like a good brother just reporting a terrible treason and potentially saving his brother's life.

Yeah, Stannis not reaching out to Renly or trying to make common cause with him is very telling. He didn't care to include Renly in his plans, and he also had no intention to do anything in his power to warn/inform Robert. He deliberately chose to do nothing and only took his own counsel.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Stannis not reaching out to Renly or trying to make common cause with him is very telling. He didn't care to include Renly in his plans, and he also had no intention to do anything in his power to warn/inform Robert. He deliberately chose to do nothing and only took his own counsel.

Warning Robert would mean that he could ignore it, marry again or even legitimize Edric  and make his bastard his heir. Stannis gains the most from doing nothing.

[John Doe]

On 5.4.2016 at 2:15 PM, Neds Secret said:

What do you think about Stannis decision to depart Kings Landing without telling his brother the King his suspicions regarding the Kings true born children's legitimacy? 

It prolonged his life. Had Stannis told him, he would probably have been laughed off and his actions seen as an attempt to steal the throne. Cersei would want to have him dismissed and secretly killed, Robert might even grant her the former wish. And the investigations would have given Cersei all the more reason to rid herself of Robert, the only person standing between her son/herself and the throne.

[Lord Varys]

13 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Warning Robert would mean that he could ignore it, marry again or even legitimize Edric  and make his bastard his heir. Stannis gains the most from doing nothing.

Not really. Stannis had virtually no allies to try to claim the throne after Robert's death. This could have been difficult had he told the truth somebody. Like Renly, Ned Stark, or some Vale lords.

And if we buy his story that he never was after the throne telling Robert so that he could legitimize one of his bastards or take a new wife to father legitimate children on her should have been fine with Stannis.

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

It prolonged his life. Had Stannis told him, he would probably have been laughed off and his actions seen as an attempt to steal the throne. Cersei would want to have him dismissed and secretly killed, Robert might even grant her the former wish. And the investigations would have given Cersei all the more reason to rid herself of Robert, the only person standing between her son/herself and the throne.

That is not true. You have to keep in mind in what situation Stannis would have gone to Robert to talk about this - it would have been after Jon Arryn's sudden and suspicious death. While Robert apparently doesn't believe his old friend was poisoned his conversation with Ned about Jon indicate that the suddenness and quickness of his illness irritated him.

If Stannis had had the opportunity to talk to Robert alone and address both his suspicion, his investigation of the entire thing, and Jon Arryn's involvement in it along with his suspicions about Jon Arryn's death it is very unlikely that Robert wouldn't have listened.

Cersei being an immediate threat to Stannis' life isn't true, either. As far as we know Jon Arryn fell sick and died while Cersei was accompanying her father back to Casterly Rock in the wake of the nameday tourney. Cersei wouldn't have been present to try to prevent or argue against the points made by Stannis.

It is unfortunate to say this but Stannis Baratheon didn't really give a damn about either of his brothers. He did not like them. And his actions are a living testament that he didn't care whether they lived or died. He couldn't even bring himself to confide in Renly - something that could have prevented their own devastating conflict later on and helped Stannis to get rid of Cersei via some elaborate scheme.

Renly certainly would have jumped on the incest story/possibility, and he may have found a way to publicly accuse the queen of infidelity in the similar way the Unworthy earlier on had accused Naerys of adultery.

The important point for Stannis would have been to get the incest story out there long before Robert's death so that it takes root among the smallfolk and the lords, and subsequently makes Joffrey's rise to the throne much more difficult, causing many people to turn to him instead.

But Renly admits later on that he never liked Stannis - and if you put that in context he could only have developed such feelings if Stannis never was a good big brother to him. After all, young Renly was in Stannis' care for the entirety of the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion but for some reason that didn't allow the brothers to forge a bond. Not to mention that Stannis would have been the brother who was around Renly the most during the latter's childhood because Robert was off fostering in the Vale.

Whose fault is it that Renly doesn't like or honor his elder brother? And who did deliberately decide not to try to inform Renly about Cersei? Stannis.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really. Stannis had virtually no allies to try to claim the throne after Robert's death. This could have been difficult had he told the truth somebody. Like Renly, Ned Stark, or some Vale lords.

When has Stannis really cared about making allies? Or that being King is about maintaining alliances? He is, at heart, an idealist. Believing that being the true 'King' should be enough.

The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

 

Now sadly, for Stannis and many idealists, they have a hard time understanding that everyone else does not believe the same things they do (him being the king) or place as much importance in doing what is right.

 

Stannis seems to have believed that he would tell the world the 'truth' and everyone would fall in line regardless of how they felt about him.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And if we buy his story that he never was after the throne telling Robert so that he could legitimize one of his bastards or take a new wife to father legitimate children on her should have been fine with Stannis.

Well no, I don't buy it. Not on a subconscious level. He may have fooled himself but it is abundantly clear that Stannis believes that he is a man destined for Greatness and is also a man sick of living in his brother(s) shadow.

He took not being made Hand as a slight and was made to believe that he is Azor Ahai reborn and that only a Westeros ruled by him can deal with the threats from beyond the Wall.

I am always confused by these arguments that Stannis (and Robb) never wanted to be King. Both had other options and both quite quickly ignored them and fought very hard to be King, both refusing to compromise and instead grasp onto their Crowns when all looked lost. Their actions expose their words; it takes a quite self righteous individual who thinks that the world needs them to be Kings.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When has Stannis really cared about making allies? Or that being King is about maintaining alliances? He is, at heart, an idealist. Believing that being the true 'King' should be enough.

The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

 

Now sadly, for Stannis and many idealists, they have a hard time understanding that everyone else does not believe the same things they do (him being the king) or place as much importance in doing what is right.

 

Stannis seems to have believed that he would tell the world the 'truth' and everyone would fall in line regardless of how they felt about him.

Well no, I don't buy it. Not on a subconscious level. He may have fooled himself but it is abundantly clear that Stannis believes that he is a man destined for Greatness and is also a man sick of living in his brother(s) shadow.

He took not being made Hand as a slight and was made to believe that he is Azor Ahai reborn and that only a Westeros ruled by him can deal with the threats from beyond the Wall.

I am always confused by these arguments that Stannis (and Robb) never wanted to be King. Both had other options and both quite quickly ignored them and fought very hard to be King, both refusing to compromise and instead grasp onto their Crowns when all looked lost. Their actions expose their words; it takes a quite self righteous individual who thinks that the world needs them to be Kings.

This is not an idealist attitude, and we know that Stannis can be pragmatic and make compromises. At times it looks as if the plot dictates when Stannis is supposed to be political moron and when he is supposed to make rational decisions you would not expect him to make. He doesn't talk to Robert, Renly, and Ned Stark, he refuses to even consider a marriage alliance between Shireen and Robert Arryn. For some reason the thought of him writing a letter to Robb or Catelyn Stark immediately after Robert's death and Ned's incarceration (or when he learned about that) apparently never even crossed his mind. Had he done that before Robb had crowned himself it would have never come to that. He wouldn't have needed to offer Robb an alliance, he could just have told him why Jon Arryn, Robert, and Ned had been murdered (in his opinion). Robb would have jumped on the chance to justify his rebellion against Joffrey with the explanation that the boy wasn't Robert's son.

But later on he can listen to Davos' council about not retaliating against the Celtigars and he even decides to sail north to save the Night's Watch. In ADwD he is capable of humiliating himself to degree to actually visit the mountain clans and ask them for their allegiance rather than demanding it. Is this character development on Stannis' part or just erratic behavior?

Stannis waiting as long as he did with proclaiming himself king and sending his letters is also very irritating and most likely a plot convenience. George wanted to introduce Stannis in the Prologue of ACoK, so we don't get a reaction from him shortly after Robert's death. That is very irritating and unrealistic, and one really wonders how the war had changed had Stannis sent his letter before Renly and Robb crowned themselves.

I also find the fact that all the women who never interacted with him before (Asha and Alysane) seem to realize that 'he is uncomfortable around women'. That could just be the case for women in armor (i.e. freaks).

I'd not describe him as an 'idealist', though. More as an absolutist who believes that (his interpretation of) the law is enough for him to get whatever the hell he wants. It is the same with Storm's End. That never was his birthright. It was Robert's to give to whomever he wanted it to give, and he chose Renly. Robert could just as well have kept both Dragonstone and Storm's End for himself to give them to his own children later on.

But I'm completely with you that Stannis always coveted the throne. I mean, he doesn't have any proof that Cersei's children are not Robert's. He is wrong in his accusation that Cersei was behind the death of Jon Arryn, and aside from that he doesn't have any proof at all. Any man who honestly doesn't want to be king would shut the hell up and not even investigate the matter.

And since I don't believe that any schemer at court - neither Varys nor Littlefinger - had any reason to tell Stannis about the incest or point him in that direction it is actually very possible that Stannis' own lust for power made sort of helped him realizing that Cersei's children might not be Robert's. After all, that would have been awfully convenient for him.

[John Doe]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not true. You have to keep in mind in what situation Stannis would have gone to Robert to talk about this - it would have been after Jon Arryn's sudden and suspicious death. While Robert apparently doesn't believe his old friend was poisoned his conversation with Ned about Jon indicate that the suddenness and quickness of his illness irritated him.

If Stannis had had the opportunity to talk to Robert alone and address both his suspicion, his investigation of the entire thing, and Jon Arryn's involvement in it along with his suspicions about Jon Arryn's death it is very unlikely that Robert wouldn't have listened.

Cersei being an immediate threat to Stannis' life isn't true, either. As far as we know Jon Arryn fell sick and died while Cersei was accompanying her father back to Casterly Rock in the wake of the nameday tourney. Cersei wouldn't have been present to try to prevent or argue against the points made by Stannis.

It is unfortunate to say this but Stannis Baratheon didn't really give a damn about either of his brothers. He did not like them. And his actions are a living testament that he didn't care whether they lived or died. He couldn't even bring himself to confide in Renly - something that could have prevented their own devastating conflict later on and helped Stannis to get rid of Cersei via some elaborate scheme.

Renly certainly would have jumped on the incest story/possibility, and he may have found a way to publicly accuse the queen of infidelity in the similar way the Unworthy earlier on had accused Naerys of adultery.

The important point for Stannis would have been to get the incest story out there long before Robert's death so that it takes root among the smallfolk and the lords, and subsequently makes Joffrey's rise to the throne much more difficult, causing many people to turn to him instead.

But Renly admits later on that he never liked Stannis - and if you put that in context he could only have developed such feelings if Stannis never was a good big brother to him. After all, young Renly was in Stannis' care for the entirety of the siege of Storm's End during the Rebellion but for some reason that didn't allow the brothers to forge a bond. Not to mention that Stannis would have been the brother who was around Renly the most during the latter's childhood because Robert was off fostering in the Vale.

Whose fault is it that Renly doesn't like or honor his elder brother? And who did deliberately decide not to try to inform Renly about Cersei? Stannis.

Jon Arryn's death wasn't suspicious at all. Nobody suspected a murder except for Stannis, who new the secret Jon Arryn died for, and the schemers Varys and LF (and LF, as the murder, of course new of it). It was only when LF had Lysa send a warning that Eddard was suspicious. 

Why is it unlikely in your eyes? Everything we've been told indicates that the Baratheon brothers didn't have a good relationship at all and Robert had Cersei influencing his positions before. 

Stannis isn't stupid, it's pretty obvious that Cersei had spies all over the Red Keep and Robert is, as much as I like him, a drunkard who might just talk with the wrong person about the conversation. Cersei doesn't need to be physically present during the conversation to hear about it. 

That's not completely true. He didn't like his brothers much, but he still felt obligated to his family. He did side with Robert during the rebellion, he did try to settle his feud with Renly.

No, he wouldn't. When Stannis sent his letters Renly didn't use the incest story and when Stannis personally told him he still didn't believe it. Plus acknowledging the incest would have hurt his political position more than it would have helped. 

Such a story might have been traced back to him and such suspicions would probably anger and endanger Robert.

Renly didn't seem to like Robert that much either, so you can't only accuse Stannis of never having built a good family relationship. 

The lacking bond is Renly's fault as much as Stannis', informing Renly about the incest amounted to nothing in the books, as Stannis might have anticipated.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On April 13, 2016 at 11:26 AM, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Warning Robert would mean that he could ignore it, marry again or even legitimize Edric  and make his bastard his heir. Stannis gains the most from doing nothing.

If that was his plan, he wouldn't have waited 5 months to declare himself king. 

[Marcus Agrippa]

I am still chalking the whole thing as inconsistrny writing. This is one of the rare bits the show did better, not having Stannis discover it doesn't create an inconsistency like this.

[John Doe]

12 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

When has Stannis really cared about making allies? Or that being King is about maintaining alliances? He is, at heart, an idealist. Believing that being the true 'King' should be enough.

The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

"They will not," said Melisandre. "Joffrey has a brother."

 

Now sadly, for Stannis and many idealists, they have a hard time understanding that everyone else does not believe the same things they do (him being the king) or place as much importance in doing what is right.

 

Stannis seems to have believed that he would tell the world the 'truth' and everyone would fall in line regardless of how they felt about him.

Well no, I don't buy it. Not on a subconscious level. He may have fooled himself but it is abundantly clear that Stannis believes that he is a man destined for Greatness and is also a man sick of living in his brother(s) shadow.

He took not being made Hand as a slight and was made to believe that he is Azor Ahai reborn and that only a Westeros ruled by him can deal with the threats from beyond the Wall.

I am always confused by these arguments that Stannis (and Robb) never wanted to be King. Both had other options and both quite quickly ignored them and fought very hard to be King, both refusing to compromise and instead grasp onto their Crowns when all looked lost. Their actions expose their words; it takes a quite self righteous individual who thinks that the world needs them to be Kings.

Stannis is able to make alliances and compromise, as is evidenced during his talks with Renly and Jon Snow. He won the support of the Mountain Clans and the Glovers as well as the support of a large number of Wildlings and the Iron Bank. 

 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is not an idealist attitude, and we know that Stannis can be pragmatic and make compromises. At times it looks as if the plot dictates when Stannis is supposed to be political moron and when he is supposed to make rational decisions you would not expect him to make. He doesn't talk to Robert, Renly, and Ned Stark, he refuses to even consider a marriage alliance between Shireen and Robert Arryn. For some reason the thought of him writing a letter to Robb or Catelyn Stark immediately after Robert's death and Ned's incarceration (or when he learned about that) apparently never even crossed his mind. Had he done that before Robb had crowned himself it would have never come to that. He wouldn't have needed to offer Robb an alliance, he could just have told him why Jon Arryn, Robert, and Ned had been murdered (in his opinion). Robb would have jumped on the chance to justify his rebellion against Joffrey with the explanation that the boy wasn't Robert's son.

But later on he can listen to Davos' council about not retaliating against the Celtigars and he even decides to sail north to save the Night's Watch. In ADwD he is capable of humiliating himself to degree to actually visit the mountain clans and ask them for their allegiance rather than demanding it. Is this character development on Stannis' part or just erratic behavior?

Stannis waiting as long as he did with proclaiming himself king and sending his letters is also very irritating and most likely a plot convenience. George wanted to introduce Stannis in the Prologue of ACoK, so we don't get a reaction from him shortly after Robert's death. That is very irritating and unrealistic, and one really wonders how the war had changed had Stannis sent his letter before Renly and Robb crowned themselves.

I also find the fact that all the women who never interacted with him before (Asha and Alysane) seem to realize that 'he is uncomfortable around women'. That could just be the case for women in armor (i.e. freaks).

I'd not describe him as an 'idealist', though. More as an absolutist who believes that (his interpretation of) the law is enough for him to get whatever the hell he wants. It is the same with Storm's End. That never was his birthright. It was Robert's to give to whomever he wanted it to give, and he chose Renly. Robert could just as well have kept both Dragonstone and Storm's End for himself to give them to his own children later on.

But I'm completely with you that Stannis always coveted the throne. I mean, he doesn't have any proof that Cersei's children are not Robert's. He is wrong in his accusation that Cersei was behind the death of Jon Arryn, and aside from that he doesn't have any proof at all. Any man who honestly doesn't want to be king would shut the hell up and not even investigate the matter.

And since I don't believe that any schemer at court - neither Varys nor Littlefinger - had any reason to tell Stannis about the incest or point him in that direction it is actually very possible that Stannis' own lust for power made sort of helped him realizing that Cersei's children might not be Robert's. After all, that would have been awfully convenient for him.

Some of this is blatantly wrong. 

Stannis does consider a betrothal between Robert Arryn and Shireen. It's only when Seylse pipes up and wounds his pride where he starts acting pig-headed. 

Furthermore Littlefinger had a good reason to be whispering in Stannis' ear. He was creating opportunities for himself. Although I doubt it was LF himself who did it. Most likely an intermediary. 

And yes, that's character development.

ACOK Stannis= MUH rights 

ADWD Stannis= Duty to the realm comes first 

but still if it was about coveting the throne then Stannis would've given up and made a deal with Tywin when he saw his crown consume him in the flames. He thinks this quest for the crown is going to kill him.

 

I think it's just the triple obsession of what's fair, the law and his rights rather than "I want to be king" 

 

whats wrong about Robert passing Stannis over Storm's End is that it's a spit in Stannis' face in favor of a kid. Traditionally, Storm's End should go to the next of kin. I think Stannis would've been less pissed if Robert had kept them both himself though.

Also why didn't Robert just give Storm's End to Stannis and make him castellan of Dragonstone? That would've made more sense.

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, John Doe said:

Jon Arryn's death wasn't suspicious at all. Nobody suspected a murder except for Stannis, who new the secret Jon Arryn died for, and the schemers Varys and LF (and LF, as the murder, of course new of it). It was only when LF had Lysa send a warning that Eddard was suspicious. 

Why is it unlikely in your eyes? Everything we've been told indicates that the Baratheon brothers didn't have a good relationship at all and Robert had Cersei influencing his positions before. 

Stannis isn't stupid, it's pretty obvious that Cersei had spies all over the Red Keep and Robert is, as much as I like him, a drunkard who might just talk with the wrong person about the conversation. Cersei doesn't need to be physically present during the conversation to hear about it. 

That's not completely true. He didn't like his brothers much, but he still felt obligated to his family. He did side with Robert during the rebellion, he did try to settle his feud with Renly.

No, he wouldn't. When Stannis sent his letters Renly didn't use the incest story and when Stannis personally told him he still didn't believe it. Plus acknowledging the incest would have hurt his political position more than it would have helped. 

Such a story might have been traced back to him and such suspicions would probably anger and endanger Robert.

Renly didn't seem to like Robert that much either, so you can't only accuse Stannis of never having built a good family relationship. 

The lacking bond is Renly's fault as much as Stannis', informing Renly about the incest amounted to nothing in the books, as Stannis might have anticipated.

We are not talking about Ned's suspicions here. We are talking about the suddenness of Jon's death and Stannis knowledge and suspicion which could have put all that into perspective in a conversation with Robert. Robert himself later notes in his talk with Ned that Jon died fell ill very suddenly and died rather quickly.

In addition, Robert himself would have grown suspicious about the nature of his children if anyone had pointed him into that direction. The man must have known how many of his bastards looked like, how close Jaime and Cersei were, and how Cersei's children only favored her and Jaime and not in the slightest bit him. The idea that Cersei telling 'Robert, that's wrong!' or 'I love you so much' would make that suspicion disappear is ridiculous. Especially in light of the fact that Cersei and Robert didn't have vaginal intercourse for a very long time. The fact that Robert is always drunk when they have sex makes things somewhat blurred to him but if somebody close to you tells you your wife is cuckolding you then you mind usually begins to think whether that's actually the case - and whether you could technically be the father of your own children or not.

Cersei hearing about the conversation isn't the issue. She would certainly have heard about in any case when Robert has her and Jaime arrested and executed alongside her three bastards. The point is that since Cersei was away when Jon Arryn died we can reasonably assume Stannis would have had a very good chance to talk to Robert in private without Cersei intervening. They could even have Jaime arrested and questioned about the whole thing in her absence, or prepared things for that.

Come to think of it, Jon Arryn didn't die all of a sudden. Robert spend long hours at his bedside, and apparently Stannis never visited him in attempt to, you know, actually convince Jon to tell Robert what they believed about his children.

Stannis' 'choice' to side with Robert during the Rebellion wasn't really a choice. The man was a second son, and not exactly popular with anyone. We don't even know whether Stannis is a knight. Perhaps Stannis would have had a chance to sell Robert to Aerys to become Lord of Storm's End in his stead but to pull this off he would have to have a following or a position of power of his own. Robert eventually seemed to have made Stannis castellan of Storm's End, but whether he already held that office when Robert returned from the Vale isn't clear at all.

In addition, the Stannis from the year 282 AC isn't the same guy we meet in ACoK. The man has changed. Back then Stannis might still have wanted to win the love and affection of his brother. But fifteen years later he no longer cared whether that drunkard lived or died.

His attempt to settle his feud with Renly was sham. He didn't believe it would work, and he ensured it wouldn't work in the first place by besieging Storm's End - a completely dick move. Melisandre's vision had 'shown' Stannis that he had to deal with Renly before he could take KL because if he didn't Renly would attack Stannis from the rear - according to Mel's interpretation.

If you think that through it is clear that Stannis and Mel went to Storm's End to kill Renly. Only his death would ensure that this betrayal/attack could not possibly happen. People thinking in such categories - and both of them did - didn't really expect or intend to reach an agreement with Renly. Neither did Renly, of course, but that doesn't make Stannis a great guy. It makes both of them brothers who had no problem killing each other, and one of them succeeded. Stannis later realized that he had loved his brother but he should have realized that earlier on. And it is very clear that Stannis was complicit in and approved of the whole shadow assassin plan. To pull that off Mel needed Stannis semen - which he gave her - and Mel would never have murdered Stannis' brother without his explicit consent. Mel might have withheld crucial information about the details of her shadow assassins - for one, he might not have known that they made out of his life force and directly connected to him on a magical level so that he could actually mentally participate in the murder(s) in his dream, but he figured that one out himself.

Renly's original plan was to replace Cersei with Margaery. If you reread AGoT you'll realize that Renly and Loras planned to make Margaery Robert's new queen. That plan would have gone much more smoothly if Renly had known that Cersei was committing adultery and that her children weren't Robert's. In that situation he would have jumped on this chance to get rid of Cersei and make the way free for Margaery.

Well, by not spreading the news about the incest while he could Stannis Baratheon put himself in a position to claim the Iron Throne months after Joffrey Baratheon and Renly Baratheon had been crowned, making his entire story both irrelevant and easily countered by a similar rumor about Selyse and Patchface. During Robert's lifetime and as his heir-presumptive Stannis could have had some chance of gathering a following of his own. By coming too late and presenting no evidence aside from his word (which is no evidence at all) Stannis actually offers nobody any good reason why he or she should believe he is the rightful king. In fact, if you remind yourself that Stannis actually doesn't have any proof whatsoever about the incest the man is actually willing and capable to murder his own nephews and niece, the legal sons of his royal brother. That is a vile crime in itself and cannot really be justified by anything. There is a reason why Ned gives Cersei the chance to flee the capital.

I never said Renly was better than Stannis, or had a better relationship with Robert. But unlike Stannis Renly did not abandon his brother. He stood by him until the very end and he did not abandon him to his enemies. After his death he betrayed Robert and his children, of course, but that's another story. Renly is essentially a power-hungry guy who hides his ambition and ruthlessness behind his likable public face. But he has no problem whatsoever to kill innocents like Daenerys, Robert's children, or his own brother.

Again, the situation was different prior to Robert's death. If Renly had known about the incest Stannis and Renly together might have been able to get rid of Cersei and the Lannisters. And, of course, Stannis and Robert are more to blame for their bad bond with Renly. Renly was their little brother, sixteen years younger than Stannis, it would have been Stannis (and Robert's) job to forge a brotherly bond, not the young boy's.

48 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Some of this is blatantly wrong. 

Stannis does consider a betrothal between Robert Arryn and Shireen. It's only when Seylse pipes up and wounds his pride where he starts acting pig-headed. 

Furthermore Littlefinger had a good reason to be whispering in Stannis' ear. He was creating opportunities for himself. Although I doubt it was LF himself who did it. Most likely an intermediary. 

And yes, that's character development.

ACOK Stannis= MUH rights 

ADWD Stannis= Duty to the realm comes first 

but still if it was about coveting the throne then Stannis would've given up and made a deal with Tywin when he saw his crown consume him in the flames. He thinks this quest for the crown is going to kill him.

 

I think it's just the triple obsession of what's fair, the law and his rights rather than "I want to be king" 

 

whats wrong about Robert passing Stannis over Storm's End is that it's a spit in Stannis' face in favor of a kid. Traditionally, Storm's End should go to the next of kin. I think Stannis would've been less pissed if Robert had kept them both himself though.

Also why didn't Robert just give Storm's End to Stannis and make him castellan of Dragonstone? That would've made more sense.

If Stannis had really considered the Shireen-Robert match a comment from Selyse wouldn't have ended his consideration. Selyse's comment there is a hint that Stannis is long past such stupid ideas because he has committed himself fully to Melisandre and R'hllor by that time.

Littlefinger had no good reason to tell Stannis about the incest at all. It complicated everything for him. If there is one guy in KL Littlefinger could not work with it was Stannis. Littlefinger is one of Stannis' greatest enemies because he knows his career would be over if Stannis ever took the Iron Throne. Just reread AGoT and ACoK and count the number of occasions in which Littlefinger argues directly against Stannis as king, mocks him in public, or offers his enemies (Tyrion and Cersei) good and valid counsel against Stannis.

It is Littlefinger who tries to make it clear to Ned that he cannot follow him if he insist on crowning Stannis. It is Littlefinger who comes up with the idea how to counter Stannis' incest tale. It is Littlefinger who offers Tyrion and Cersei to negotiate with the Tyrells in Joffrey's name. And, most importantly, it is Littlefinger who comes up with the idea to clad Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor, and thus effectively singlehandedly destroys Stannis on the Blackwater. Littlefinger won that battle for the Lannister, not Tywin or the Tyrells. It was Renly's ghost, and Renly's ghost was Littlefinger's creation.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We are not talking about Ned's suspicions here. We are talking about the suddenness of Jon's death and Stannis knowledge and suspicion which could have put all that into perspective in a conversation with Robert. Robert himself later notes in his talk with Ned that Jon died fell ill very suddenly and died rather quickly.

In addition, Robert himself would have grown suspicious about the nature of his children if anyone had pointed him into that direction. The man must have known how many of his bastards looked like, how close Jaime and Cersei were, and how Cersei's children only favored her and Jaime and not in the slightest bit him. The idea that Cersei telling 'Robert, that's wrong!' or 'I love you so much' would make that suspicion disappear is ridiculous. Especially in light of the fact that Cersei and Robert didn't have vaginal intercourse for a very long time. The fact that Robert is always drunk when they have sex makes things somewhat blurred to him but if somebody close to you tells you your wife is cuckolding you then you mind usually begins to think whether that's actually the case - and whether you could technically be the father of your own children or not.

Cersei hearing about the conversation isn't the issue. She would certainly have heard about in any case when Robert has her and Jaime arrested and executed alongside her three bastards. The point is that since Cersei was away when Jon Arryn died we can reasonably assume Stannis would have had a very good chance to talk to Robert in private without Cersei intervening. They could even have Jaime arrested and questioned about the whole thing in her absence, or prepared things for that.

Come to think of it, Jon Arryn didn't die all of a sudden. Robert spend long hours at his bedside, and apparently Stannis never visited him in attempt to, you know, actually convince Jon to tell Robert what they believed about his children.

Stannis' 'choice' to side with Robert during the Rebellion wasn't really a choice. The man was a second son, and not exactly popular with anyone. We don't even know whether Stannis is a knight. Perhaps Stannis would have had a chance to sell Robert to Aerys to become Lord of Storm's End in his stead but to pull this off he would have to have a following or a position of power of his own. Robert eventually seemed to have made Stannis castellan of Storm's End, but whether he already held that office when Robert returned from the Vale isn't clear at all.

In addition, the Stannis from the year 282 AC isn't the same guy we meet in ACoK. The man has changed. Back then Stannis might still have wanted to win the love and affection of his brother. But fifteen years later he no longer cared whether that drunkard lived or died.

His attempt to settle his feud with Renly was sham. He didn't believe it would work, and he ensured it wouldn't work in the first place by besieging Storm's End - a completely dick move. Melisandre's vision had 'shown' Stannis that he had to deal with Renly before he could take KL because if he didn't Renly would attack Stannis from the rear - according to Mel's interpretation.

If you think that through it is clear that Stannis and Mel went to Storm's End to kill Renly. Only his death would ensure that this betrayal/attack could not possibly happen. People thinking in such categories - and both of them did - didn't really expect or intend to reach an agreement with Renly. Neither did Renly, of course, but that doesn't make Stannis a great guy. It makes both of them brothers who had no problem killing each other, and one of them succeeded. Stannis later realized that he had loved his brother but he should have realized that earlier on. And it is very clear that Stannis was complicit in and approved of the whole shadow assassin plan. To pull that off Mel needed Stannis semen - which he gave her - and Mel would never have murdered Stannis' brother without his explicit consent. Mel might have withheld crucial information about the details of her shadow assassins - for one, he might not have known that they made out of his life force and directly connected to him on a magical level so that he could actually mentally participate in the murder(s) in his dream, but he figured that one out himself.

Renly's original plan was to replace Cersei with Margaery. If you reread AGoT you'll realize that Renly and Loras planned to make Margaery Robert's new queen. That plan would have gone much more smoothly if Renly had known that Cersei was committing adultery and that her children weren't Robert's. In that situation he would have jumped on this chance to get rid of Cersei and make the way free for Margaery.

Well, by not spreading the news about the incest while he could Stannis Baratheon put himself in a position to claim the Iron Throne months after Joffrey Baratheon and Renly Baratheon had been crowned, making his entire story both irrelevant and easily countered by a similar rumor about Selyse and Patchface. During Robert's lifetime and as his heir-presumptive Stannis could have had some chance of gathering a following of his own. By coming too late and presenting no evidence aside from his word (which is no evidence at all) Stannis actually offers nobody any good reason why he or she should believe he is the rightful king. In fact, if you remind yourself that Stannis actually doesn't have any proof whatsoever about the incest the man is actually willing and capable to murder his own nephews and niece, the legal sons of his royal brother. That is a vile crime in itself and cannot really be justified by anything. There is a reason why Ned gives Cersei the chance to flee the capital.

I never said Renly was better than Stannis, or had a better relationship with Robert. But unlike Stannis Renly did not abandon his brother. He stood by him until the very end and he did not abandon him to his enemies. After his death he betrayed Robert and his children, of course, but that's another story. Renly is essentially a power-hungry guy who hides his ambition and ruthlessness behind his likable public face. But he has no problem whatsoever to kill innocents like Daenerys, Robert's children, or his own brother.

Again, the situation was different prior to Robert's death. If Renly had known about the incest Stannis and Renly together might have been able to get rid of Cersei and the Lannisters. And, of course, Stannis and Robert are more to blame for their bad bond with Renly. Renly was their little brother, sixteen years younger than Stannis, it would have been Stannis (and Robert's) job to forge a brotherly bond, not the young boy's.

If Stannis had really considered the Shireen-Robert match a comment from Selyse wouldn't have ended his consideration. Selyse's comment there is a hint that Stannis is long past such stupid ideas because he has committed himself fully to Melisandre and R'hllor by that time.

Littlefinger had no good reason to tell Stannis about the incest at all. It complicated everything for him. If there is one guy in KL Littlefinger could not work with it was Stannis. Littlefinger is one of Stannis' greatest enemies because he knows his career would be over if Stannis ever took the Iron Throne. Just reread AGoT and ACoK and count the number of occasions in which Littlefinger argues directly against Stannis as king, mocks him in public, or offers his enemies (Tyrion and Cersei) good and valid counsel against Stannis.

It is Littlefinger who tries to make it clear to Ned that he cannot follow him if he insist on crowning Stannis. It is Littlefinger who comes up with the idea how to counter Stannis' incest tale. It is Littlefinger who offers Tyrion and Cersei to negotiate with the Tyrells in Joffrey's name. And, most importantly, it is Littlefinger who comes up with the idea to clad Garlan Tyrell in Renly's armor, and thus effectively singlehandedly destroys Stannis on the Blackwater. Littlefinger won that battle for the Lannister, not Tywin or the Tyrells. It was Renly's ghost, and Renly's ghost was Littlefinger's creation.

Wow, I thought you were more reasonable than this. What gives you the impression that LF putting the incest inside Stannis' head means he wanted him on the throne? He was purposefully pitting people against each other and when Stannis pulled Jon Arryn in, LF saw his chance to kill Jon and lure in Ned Stark.

if you don't think Stannis doesn't care about his brothers then you don't know his chapter very well. He lived them both but he only realizes this after they die 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

1 hour ago, Marcus Agrippa said:

I am still chalking the whole thing as inconsistrny writing. This is one of the rare bits the show did better, not having Stannis discover it doesn't create an inconsistency like this.

True but it makes Robb look worse for not listening to what his dad had to say 

actually it makes most of Westeros' lords look worse for not giving a crap