Season 6 Hookups!

[Le Cygne]

2 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I agree, I thought the end of last year was setting up or atleast potentially, Jon and Sansa but no, different paths at this point. Sansa, not telling Littlefinger about her brothers, on the fence about whether she will or not. I think one of the big curious questions headed into season 6 is how is Sansa going to view Littlefinger after what happened in 5? Her "wisdom" will be under scrutiny this year for that question alone.

I think Littlefinger is her big conflict. And he doesn't want to share power. I think she did have a role in the downfall of her family, and it wouldn't make sense for her to end up queen, that would be all wrong. I think she needs to show that she's grown, by doing things out of love, for others.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The point is this, Sansa, willingly went to Winterfell and married Ramsay Snow Bolton, the son of the man who is known, along with his wife's family, for luring her Brother, pregnant Queen, her mother and every Northern bannerman into the twins,  were given bread, cheese, salt and ale, guest rights and were brutally murdered. to give the war to the Lannisters and so that Roose could steel Winterfell and the North. Show Sansa willingly gave Ramsay her name and virginity. Sansa is a blood traitor to her family's memory. How can she realistically "get around that". It is not like she was transported to Winterfell in a carriage with bars and locks and dragged before the Godswood in chains. She went there and willingly said "I take this man". Credibility should count.

[Le Cygne]

They did make her a traitor. They can attribute noble reasons to it, but the fact remains, she did it. And they had her do it, and they made it clear that it was her choice to do it. Now, maybe she thought it was for the best (which makes no sense whatsoever, she already knew how it would go, it's a repeat of her season 1-3 arc, only without her learning anything), but it's still a grave error in judgement. And at Littlefinger's urging. His goal was power for himself, they said so. Arya never would have done that. Jon never would have done that.

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

I think Littlefinger is her big conflict. And he doesn't want to share power. I think she did have a role in the downfall of her family, and it wouldn't make sense for her to end up queen, that would be all wrong. I think she needs to show that she's grown, by doing things out of love, for others.

Agreed. I would like her to, when the time comes, sacrafice her life to save one of her family, like in a way, Lady died in Nymeria's place and certainly her father ended up dying to save her, Arya was already safe as Ned saw her before he died.

[Le Cygne]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Agreed. I would like her to, when the time comes, sacrafice her life to save one of her family, like in a way, Lady died in Nymeria's place and certainly her father ended up dying to save her, Arya was already safe as Ned saw her before he died.

Yes, I agree, that's called for in the story at this point. Does it have to be giving her life, perhaps just willing to give her life is enough. But there has to be some sort of sacrifice to make up for what she did.

[239JMFL34109]

5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The point is this, Sansa, willingly went to Winterfell and married Ramsay Snow Bolton, the son of the man who is known, along with his wife's family, for luring her Brother, pregnant Queen, her mother and every Northern bannerman into the twins,  were given bread, cheese, salt and ale, guest rights and were brutally murdered. to give the war to the Lannisters and so that Roose could steel Winterfell and the North. Show Sansa willingly gave Ramsay her name and virginity. Sansa is a blood traitor to her family's memory. How can she realistically "get around that". It is not like she was transported to Winterfell in a carriage with bars and locks and dragged before the Godswood in chains. She went there and willingly said "I take this man". Credibility should count.

Who was around to see it? thoen who no one would trust and would keep his mouth shut about it for her. 

She can sell the idea that the whole thing is BS. If Jon has comes down too he is going to want to believe the best in her even if she lies about it. 

[239JMFL34109]

3 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

Yes, I agree, that's called for in the story at this point. Does it have to be giving her life, perhaps just willing to give her life is enough. But there has to be some sort of sacrifice to make up for what she did.

I could totally see her give up her life for her family

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, 239JMFL34109 said:

Who was around to see it? thoen who no one would trust and would keep his mouth shut about it for her. 

She can sell the idea that the whole thing is BS. If Jon has comes down too he is going to want to believe the best in her even if she lies about it. 

I do not think she can dance around this. Also, do you think Ramsay will be quiet about it when he sends "a letter" out. He will want his "bride" back? Sansa is now Sansa Bolton and there is nothing she can do about that name until/unless he dies and she re-marries.

[Darksky]

No one can prove Sansa married 'willingly', no loyalists would trust Boltons and their allies or LF. LF won't be going around advocating for Boltons, he's already amassing the Vale force against them.

Sansa is a Stark by blood, was abused by Ramsay Bolton, a bastard legitimised by another bastard, escaped and is ready to get revenge on those who wronged her and her family, that's all that matters to the Northern Lords and northern folks. Is fArya seen a traitor? Don't recall. The allies are preparing to fight for her. This will be the same with Sansa. She has taken over fArya after all.

[239JMFL34109]

5 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I do not think she can dance around this. Also, do you think Ramsay will be quiet about it when he sends "a letter" out. He will want his "bride" back? Sansa is now Sansa Bolton and there is nothing she can do about that name until/unless he dies and she re-marries.

Yeah cause everyone know that Ramsay is trustworthy guy. You are saying she willingly did all of this and who can say she willlingly did? people they don't trust and people who will lie for her. 

[Grail King]

2 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

No to all of those arguments. No Cleganebowl according to reports, never made sense anyway. A story goes by a story, not fans, besides, there are lots of SanSan fans. They already went there with SanSan, lots of scenes and setup, this is the rest of the story. Nothing for Jon and Sansa, no story, he's her brother, they don't even like each other. Stannis doesn't want Sansa, any more than Robb or the other Northern lords did, they want Rickon for now. Bran will return, lots know about him on the show and they said knowing he was alive was important to Sansa...

She doesn't hate him, they are not shown to be close like Jon and Arya, but they don't hate each other, as you are saying.

Just as there are remarks and hints about Sansa and Sandor meeting again  ( I don't see it as a possible togetherness ending by the way ) there are remarks and hints that Sansa and Jon got along.

How to compliment girls, dancing, the ghost story in the crypt as Sansa ran screaming, hearing a wolf call descending the Eyrie.

As far as Rickon, if he dies in show it's to sow some tension for the Northern Lords and between Sansa and Jon factions, though in truth I don't see any Stark siblings fighting each other.

If Rickon does die in book it be for the same reason, except we have two or three guns hanging; the Will, Howland Reed, Davos and Manderly and I'll throw in a fourth Sansa has the Necklace no;not for Rickon but for LF, as I believe Robert Arryn survives.

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 minutes ago, Darksky said:

No one can prove Sansa married 'willingly', no loyalists would trust Boltons and their allies or LF. LF won't be going around advocating for Boltons, he's already amassing the Vale force against them.

Sansa is a Stark by blood, was abused by Ramsay Bolton, a bastard legitimised by another bastard, escaped and is ready to get revenge on those who wronged her and her family, that's all that matters to the Northern Lords and northern folks. Is fArya seen a traitor? Don't recall. The allies are preparing to fight for her. This will be the same with Sansa. She has taken over fArya after all.

 

3 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

Yeah cause everyone know that Ramsay is trustworthy guy. You are saying she willingly did all of this and who can say she willlingly did? people they don't trust and people who will lie for her. 

The show runners outside/inside the episodes pretty much says she willingly does this. Now, it is lame writing but to bash that we can review that in the r+r thread. I am just saying that I do not think Sansa can or will go around like she never met the Boltons and that she is not in fact, wedded and bedded (by rape) Ramsay Bolton, her lawful husband. It was such huge deal last year, there is no way to get around that. Also, LF told Cersie that the Boltons had her and were going to marry her to the heir, Ramsay, let alone what LF is going to tell Royce and the other Vale Lords, who last saw Sansa in his custody, when he convinces them to go to the North to save her. No, Sansa being wed to Ramsay is going to be known and how various characters react to it will be interesting.  And another thing, you can all bet your bottom dollars that through the trees, Bran saw the whole thing and he knows too.

[239JMFL34109]

12 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

 

The show runners outside/inside the episodes pretty much says she willingly does this. Now, it is lame writing but to bash that we can review that in the r+r thread. I am just saying that I do not think Sansa can or will go around like she never met the Boltons and that she is not in fact, wedded and bedded (by rape) Ramsay Bolton, her lawful husband. It was such huge deal last year, there is no way to get around that. Also, LF told Cersie that the Boltons had her and were going to marry her to the heir, Ramsay, let alone what LF is going to tell Royce and the other Vale Lords, who last saw Sansa in his custody, when he convinces them to go to the North to save her. No, Sansa being wed to Ramsay is going to be known and how various characters react to it will be interesting.  And another thing, you can all bet your bottom dollars that through the trees, Bran saw the whole thing and he knows too.

i think you are confused. i am saying she did it willingly. But WHO knows she did it willingly? if she were to lie would they will believe her and not the guy who's been ripping people's skin off. 

if she says she has been forced to do all of this i think they will believe her lie. 

Also bran is not in a position to talk to anyone. I think he WILL talk to someone people like jon who if he finds out sansa did this willingly would still not turn on her. Bran might not even mention it as there might be more pressing issue like the fate of the world. I don't see bran ever make it out of that cave btw. 

[Darksky]

No one and nothing can prove it IN the context of the show, to the Stark loyalists. That's the bottom line. We're not discussing the viewers but the characters.

The allies will take Sansa's word over the hated Boltons' any day of the week. The proof of abuse on her body will help her cause. It's really a non-issue. The Lords will take her in and rally around her because she's another trueborn Stark, wronged by Lannisters and Boltons, the North's enemies.

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, Darksky said:

The allies will take Sansa's word over the hated Boltons' any day of the week. The proof of abuse on her body will help her cause.

Theon's state as a proof of what Ramsay does to the people who don't get along "willingly" will also probably help.
 

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 minutes ago, 239JMFL34109 said:

i think you are confused. i am saying she did it willingly. But WHO knows she did it willingly? if she were to lie would they will believe her and not the guy who's been ripping people's skin off. 

if she says she has been forced to do all of this i think they will believe her lie. 

Also bran is not in a position to talk to anyone. I think he WILL talk to someone people like jon who if he finds out sansa did this willingly would still not turn on her. Bran might even mention it as there might be more pressing issue like the fate of the world. I don't see bran ever make it out of that cave btw. 

She did do it willingly. It is confusing at Moat Caillin in the Littlefinger convinces her scene as it looks like she is doing so, so as to take the path of "least resistance". However, at Winterfell, before the wedding, she does seem to kinda like Ramsay, although Myranda unnerves her. The code name for the wedding rape scene on the set was "romance dies" so, yeah, they had Sansa "liking" Ramsay and even the former costume designer, who designed Sansa's wedding dress to specifically be easily "ripped" says that she was looking forward to starting a family with Ramsay.

 

If she says she was forced to, then she must directly implicate Littlefinger and that would mean his death by atleast the Vale Lords if they find out.

 

It looks like Bran is leaving that cave in the trailers and not just in the visions.

[Le Cygne]

42 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The show runners outside/inside the episodes pretty much says she willingly does this. Now, it is lame writing but to bash that we can review that in the r+r thread. I am just saying that I do not think Sansa can or will go around like she never met the Boltons and that she is not in fact, wedded and bedded (by rape) Ramsay Bolton, her lawful husband. It was such huge deal last year, there is no way to get around that. Also, LF told Cersie that the Boltons had her and were going to marry her to the heir, Ramsay, let alone what LF is going to tell Royce and the other Vale Lords, who last saw Sansa in his custody, when he convinces them to go to the North to save her. No, Sansa being wed to Ramsay is going to be known and how various characters react to it will be interesting.  And another thing, you can all bet your bottom dollars that through the trees, Bran saw the whole thing and he knows too.

Yeah, you are right, they made a big deal out of the fact that she chose to do it.

Interesting point that Bran saw it, he knows what's going on. In a story like this, truth matters.

(fixed the quote)

[Darksky]

No one's denying she agreed to marry, we're just denying the claim that it will have any impact on the story as it can't be proved to the loyalists and they will believe her over anyone else.

Even if Bran would ever see what happened ( hope he wouldn't see the details), he'd know she did it because she got duped by Littlefinger, believing his word on how it's the first step towards exacting revenge against the Boltons, that she was abused, wasn't exactly a willing participant (as in wasn't there because she liked Boltons), wanted to escape and all. He's not going to go against her.

He wouldn't even have a way to relay the info to the Lords without them thinking they've gone mad.

11 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Theon's state as a proof of what Ramsay does to the people who don't get along "willingly" will also probably help.
 

Yes, good point. 

I repeat, it's such a non-issue unless there pops a little Bolton baby (bastard in the loyalists' eyes as they're rejecting Tommen as the rightful king).

[Le Cygne]

Also I see from a post above, saying "they don't even like each other" = hate. No, if I meant hate, I would have said hate. He says things like "even Sansa" and she says things like "had not thought of Jon in ages" for a reason. They don't even think about each other enough to like each other. Which is relevant.

Rather than read something into nothing taking lines out of context while making the case that a brother and sister (and that's how they see each other) will marry, note that there's contrast in both cases: how often Jon thinks of Arya, and how often Sansa thinks of Sandor. Sansa thinks of Sandor's cloak more than Jon.

GRRM said it himself:

Quote

We've had these debates before about whether Sansa's actions truly resulted in her losing her wolf and father. And whether losing Lady symbolized her ceasing to be a true Stark. In fact, we've had this debate in front of GRRM twice.The first time was in St Louis in 2001 while at dinner. GRRM let us debate, smiling and nodding here and there. He also told us why he created Sansa in the first place, because there is always someone in a family that the others don't get along with. He was a bit coy in answering our questions but in the end he did indicate that Sansa did have responsibility for Lady's and Ned's deaths. I reported this to the board and I recall it being dismissed by some. I distinctly recall someone saying, "Well what I think he really meant to say was..."

The second time we had this discussion was in Indy in 2007. There was a boarder there that didn't believe that Sansa's losing Lady symbolized her not being a Stark anymore. The person said so in front of GRRM and GRRM smiled and said, "Doesn't it?"

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/87941-book-spoilers-discussing-sansa-ii/&page=18#comment-4468398

Another related to the above:

Quote

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1273

And a recent one, in February of this year:

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Q - Just wondering when in the first book... Sansa's wolf is killed and then Arya's goes missing or she sends it away. I was wondering if there's any kind of symbolism there, like the Stark within Sansa is dead or the Stark within Arya is missing, or if I'm just reading way too much into that, or...

GRRM - You know, that's an interesting thing to contemplate and it's a good thing that you are contemplating it. Arya still has a connection to her wolf, if you read her chapter, she is still having her wolf dreams, and Nymeria is still roaming the Riverlands at the head of a gigantic pack of other wolves. So is there something going on? Who knows, perhaps.

And here's another (and so many of these Hound and Lady references in the books):

Quote

I asked about the previous day's panel, when George had mentioned intentional mistakes. Was Sansa's memory of the Hound kissing her when he actually had not an intentional mistake? Why would she think that? He said it was in fact intentional, but he would not tell us why. I said he was mean, and he laughed at me.

I also asked if Sandor would be in the upcoming book. He pleaded the fifth. I said he was mean, and he laughed at me.

We talked a bit about the children and their wolves. I mentioned Sansa just having a poor old crippled dog [Sansa refers to the dog as a hound and then dreams of the Hound] because she lost her wolf. He got a queer smile about his lips when I said that and nodded. Make of that what you will.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/To_Be_Continued_Chicago_IL_May_6_83

[Darksky]

The impact of Sansa's arc in Winterfell is her getting in touch with Theon, them helping each other under dire circumstances, her learning about Bran and Rickon, her becoming more bitter and hell-bent on destroying Stark's enemies, which will lead to her taking charge, the Stark loyalists having more reason to move their asses against the Boltons, perhaps pitting Sandor against LF ( for you SanSans), should he ever hear about it, and an incentive for Jon to move on Winterfell.  He's not going to get resurrected, and out of the blue decide to fight the Boltons, he was unwilling to do so pre-assassination. Unless he suddenly thinks he needs to remove the Boltons as a first step in a campaign to protect Westeros against WWs, a belated pink letter will be the one to make him act.